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FF22DXB
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 2:20 pm

RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:00 am

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 3):
Probably not a lot different at EK or EY for that matter.

I work and live in Abu Dhabi, I have a lot of friends working in EY and a few in EK, some of them FA's, and in EY and EK its not the same stories as the article says about QR.

There are a few restrictions for the FA's, like:
- they can't bring male visitors at night to their accomodation
- they can't request for a accomodation allowance if they are not married. basically they have to live in staff accomodation.

Other than that they can pretty much do anything in their OFF time, even during layovers.

Quoting lychemsa (Reply 42):
What are the salaries like?

For a EY FA's, starting basic salary is around AED 7,500 (USD 2,000) free of tax, that obviosly goes up depending on how much they travel, etc...
 
PanHAM
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:07 am

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 47):
UAE is the most "progressive" of the Arab countries...they actually have the most liberal alcohol/exercise of religion/women laws in the region.

well, hey are the one eyed under the blind and even for Dubai itself that is not always true as shown in the most recent case of the Austrian women that was raped.

I hjave carefully phrased in somerecent threds about the ME3 t they will sooner or later reach the limits wen it comes to expat workers. Pilos may be fine with fairly good saaries, depending where their he County is. But when i read here that QR pays flightattendant substantially less than EK and provide an
unfrindly Environment, again compared to DXB, they will have a staffing Problem sooner than later.

OK, in a feudal Country there are even different categories of expats. Flight Crew can leave if tey are maltreated, even when the cabin chief holds the passpors. Most countries issue replacements in the embassies or consulates around the world. But what about office, technical or management staff that as an issue with their employers?
They run a good Chance of being taken hostage. Who wants to work under such conditons?

If hey want to run airlines with state-of-the-art Equipment they have to adapt the living conditions for expats as well and that simply means, stay out of private matters. An employer can set the rules from 9 to 5, the other hours are non of their usiness.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
flyboy_se
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:32 am

Quoting AirMale (Reply 22):
This is news to me...... having a number of friends working for QR in Europe/USA, nobody has ever heard of such a rule.

Just ask them to check it with their local HR. If they live in a country where same sex marriage is legal, they should have recieved a newsletter.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 23):
This. Kissing your wife or even holding her hand is against the law in the middle east. Hell you can't even buy a beer unless you're a foreigner - yet we're supposed to believe they acknowledge same-sex marriages? Sorry if that's a little hard to believe.

Well, you are now confusing the actual airlines with the country. It is up to you if you choose to believe or not, however the people affected will benefit from it for sure.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
First, happy a.net anniversary.

I believe gay rights will be a major marketing advantage for many companies/nations. If that continues, it shall force other nations to change.

Lightsaber

Thank you  

Well it would be, however i am pretty sure it wont be used in marketing, especially since it is a sensitive issue, even in countries where it is accepted.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 41):
When it's either work in the equivalent of modern-day slavery or be flat-out broke, I think most folks take the money...but at the cost of their dignity.

Sweden is not really a place with lack of available jobs, and has also quite good social safety net, so a person without job wouldent really go hungry.

Plus there are many jobs available around the world in countires like Australia, US, New Zealand for young people where they can go for a year working as Au Pair etc.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 44):
I see a few posters mention "sharia law". How does that make anything better? It is a practice that strips people of fundamental human rights, reduces women to second or even third class citizens and enforces draconian punishments for menial crimes...

It is deffinitly not making anything better. However it is the law of the country, and as such it should be something to think about for people considering taking a job in those countries.
Educate yourself about the conditions in the country you are thinking about moving to and base your decision on that.



Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 23):
AGREED. I am more than happy to give my $$$ to AA/BA/CX and know that my dollars aren't going towards rich oilmen's coffers and aren't contributing to the ever increasing exploitation of laborers in the middle east. Hear Hear.

All three of those are members of same alliance as QR and cooperate togehter.
In fact BA was the sponsor of QR to enter OW alliance. And BA CEO is good friend with AAB
I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
 
Pihero
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:45 am

Of all the countries in the Middle East, I won't recommend working as a flight attendant in Saudi Arabia or Qatar.
I have some experience in the region and was happy in Bahrain, Dubai, Abu-Dhabi and Muscat.
In Doha, the basics is :"You have no rights, we do have them all". They have the excuse of a very strict islamic culture in which - contrary to the Coran - the foreign worker has to be worked to the maximum, without any respect or gratitude.
Your culture or your education count for nothing : you are a foreigner.
In Saudi Arabia, the picture is similar... Just add to it the ever-present mutawa, religious policeman who is the law unto himself
One aspect that is not mentioned in the article is how many F/As and pilots jump ship during a European lay-over.
It used to be common place.
And airline employees live a paradise compared to the menial workers from the sub-continent : They are worked to death, without any exaggeration whatsoever... and their life in other GCC countries are very similar. The term of *slavery* applies here, without a doubt.
Contrail designer
 
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SQ773
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:58 am

There is a thing I do not understand in here: is it mandatory to live in the QR accomodations? I have a friend who is working in Qatar for QF ( not as a FA ) and he is sharing an appartment with some other work mates. I mean, are you free to live somewhere else rather than on that prission?

In any case, I find the article a bit exaggerated. No one doubts that the working conditions in the Gulf are somehow misserable, no unions, etc..that´s why they have created this so called miracle, but I just do not get how a five star airline can provide such a level of service with their flying staff being so unhappy working in there.

I donno If like some other asian carriers, the careers do not expand beyond 5 years on the company ( as a FA ) and that´s why people work there...But reading the article, I doubt this has not arised far before and how it does not show on their service.

In order to give credibility to this reading, I would like to hear from more FA or ex QR FA´s..

One question is to dislike their culture, which from a poni of view of a western one is somehow understable, another thing is to suggest that the working conditions are that of a semi slave in a Big Brother enviroment. I just don´t believe that.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:58 am

Quoting FF22DXB (Reply 50):
For a EY FA's, starting basic salary is around AED 7,500 (USD 2,000) free of tax, that obviosly goes up depending on how much they travel, etc...

Annual ??!!!??? - so less that $200 a month?
 
Pihero
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:07 pm

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 55):

Annual ??!!!??? - so less that $200 a month?

It's of course monthly.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 54):
I just don´t believe that.

Although incredible, you should.
Contrail designer
 
ZOROS
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:26 pm

Hello,

Long time reader and decided to join. I have heard the horror stories about QR for many years and sadly it is true. Always feel bad when I see QR crew on layovers because of the rules and restrictions they have.

QR used to recruit a lot of western staff but they never lasted longer than six months due to the management style+Doha is not a nice city to live in at all! Now they have a mainly south east asian and Eastern European crew. Even they don't stay long though! From what I have heard from my friends people get fired all the time for the most stupid and insane reasons! We have some ex Qr crew here and they are glad to have left.

Emirates and Etihad are a totally different scenario. At EK one major restriction is the fact that crew live in company accommodation. You either live with some flatmates or you can have single accommodation. You CAN take a living out allowance, but when Emirates give you a flat with all electricity and water bills paid for, I would not recommend to move out unless you have a partner who is non crew (rents are insane in Dubai and it will really start eating into your salary) and therefore want to live together. Currently at Emirates only crew are permitted in EK accommodation buildings between 01:00-07:00am. This is due to various reasons, in the past crew used to lease out rooms to random people which and bring people to live with them, also there was a problem involving sex workers so I guess its a price to pay.

Salary at Emirates is around 7000-9000 dhs a month for a GR2 (Junior y class crew) you stay in this position for maybe one year or 18 months if you fly 380 and maybe 2 years if you fly on the main fleet. It goes up as you move through the ranks. If you take the living out allowance for a GR2 I think its 40000 a year so I guess you would get around 10k or 12k a month (tax free) thats about 3000 USD.

EK and Ey also have more western crew. The biggest crew nationality represented at Emirates are British. I think the ratio currently is 9% of the crew are British, 35% European (mix of east and west 50/50) 15% Arabic Speaking crew, 5% Australian, 21% Asian and the rest south american/north american/african/kenyan/south african.

[Edited 2014-02-05 04:28:07]
 
AA7295
Posts: 464
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:29 pm

It's already made it in Wikipedia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_Airways
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:29 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 51):
well, hey are the one eyed under the blind and even for Dubai itself that is not always true as shown in the most recent case of the Austrian women that was raped.

Well...as bad and stupid as that case was, it was still a better result than what would've happened in several other ME countries.

Now this next statement is a generality...so please take it as that...
If you look at this area of the world, the majority of civilizations in the region were living in tents and riding camels across the desert a century ago, and still clinging to tribal ideals...when you introduce a thousand years of "western" cultural and technological advancements over a single century to an area that's considered "backwards" by western standards, there's going to be a LOT of issues, and it's difficult for both sides to understand why each other can't seem to progress or be accepting. Think of it if we had alien visitors visit us tomorrow and give us all the stuff you see on Star Trek...we won't instantly progress as a culture up to those levels...it's going to take time.
 
FF22DXB
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:30 pm

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 55):
Quoting FF22DXB (Reply 50):
For a EY FA's, starting basic salary is around AED 7,500 (USD 2,000) free of tax, that obviosly goes up depending on how much they travel, etc...

Annual ??!!!??? - so less that $200 a month?

Monthly, sorry i should have specified.
 
airproxx
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:47 pm

Quoting flyboy_se (Reply 19):
I am pretty sure he is paid quite well, so not sure if i would call it slavery considering he can leave whenever he wants. I am sure being unemployed is better than slavery.

Unless you have to pay the bills.  
Being paid well doesn't mean conditions are different from slavery. This is modern ages I guess, but still it remains slavery. Like it or not.
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
PanHAM
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:47 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 59):

Well...as bad and stupid as that case was, it was still a better

Both the Austrian and the Norwegian woman escaped only because of poltical and diplomatic pressure.

In the Long run, if you want to operate state-of-the-art Airlines you must adapt. the staff working conditions as well. They meet and comply with IOSA Standards, they work in ICAO and IATA, so what is the problem with the rest of the Standards.

I've learned from my visits in the Region and the Sub continent that the People there make a difference between educated and un-educated. I was the house guest of a Pakistani in Ajman. I learned that the house Boy did not know what coffee is. I had to Show him and he was f...scared I told his master. I did not.

We all know there are cultural differences which we have to respect in other countries. No Problem. But Basic human rights apply to all People, regardless which culture.

Such discussions and articles, if understood by the adressee, contribute to run a better Airline and a better Country. If that is not understood, sports Events should be taken away and passengers should know what the working conditions of those flight attendants are
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
kaitak
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:50 pm

I have also heard several horror stories about QR down through the years and I can't help wondering how much longer this can go on for. For one thing - and taking into account conditions for foreign labourers, not just QR - I find it difficult to believe that such abuses could go on for another eight years, until Qatar hosts the World Cup. Surely there will be some action taken in the meantime?

Geopolitically, of course, Qatar is important - particularly to the west; not only does Qatar provide bases to the US, it is also an ally of the west in relation to Syria and of course, it is a major gas producer, and has bought billions in aircraft from Airbus and Boeing. Is this enough to avoid official sanctions? One would hope not. If there not official sanctions, I would expect a major boycott campaign closer to the WC and a lot more publicity for Qatar's abuses.

For QR itself, it is hard to see how this can be continued for so long without major issues arising. Does a company with this kind of culture have a safety culture; is there anonymous reporting of safety issues to their regulator (yeah, somehow can't see that happening!?), what is CRM training like? Could a western FO take over control from a senior Qatari captain without getting his marching orders? All of this has an impact on safety. Will there be a "tombstone imperative", i.e. no action taken until QR has a bad accident and then ...

Short term, QR may get away with these kinds of abuses, but long term, they are making a rod for their own backs and practically no one will feel sorry for them. They really do seem to believe that having large investments and large resources absolves them of the moral obligation to act responsibly and fairly. And that will come back to bite them.
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:02 pm

Some people have mentioned Shari'ah in connection with the restrictive and oppressive conditions at QR, as if to suggest the attitude and approach is based on it. Yet if stories of Al Baker being rude and abusive towards inductees are true, then it is clear that he is displaying the arrogance and disdain for workers that the Phophet condemned.

Oppressive and unjust behaviour towards employees is specifically condemned in the Qur'an, even if some states and some employers like QR appear to turn a blind eye and deaf ear to that condemnation. Brutal and oppressive conditions can not be justified by Shari'ah, even if the laws of Qatar permit it.

The prophet spoke of treating servants as well as if they were part of the family, sharing the same food and providing from the same clothing. He even went further and said that if the load is too great for the servant, assist him. While I don't expect Al Baker, let alone the Emir of Qatar, to work the galley of a 787 they can not continue to treat their workers with contempt and claim to be righteous. The prophet spoke of those who were unjust and oppressive never seeing paradise. That probably doesn't worry airline executives. What they should worry about is their ability to attract and retain quality staff. A high labour turnover can't be good for the bottom line, even if in the short term you can sell seats at subsidised prices.

The employer does have a responsibility towards his employees, whether it be QR or firms involved in building facilities for the World Cup (not all of which are Qatari). The fact that workers are treated so shamefully is a clear indication of how far the message and those who pretend to follow it have divurged.
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
slinky09
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:09 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 6):
From what I've heard EK and EY are better, not great by any stretch, but not as bad as QR. QR are the absolute pits, and despite gladly flying EK and EY I steer clear of QR because of their employment practices.

A choice we are fortunately free to make, but still the right one.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:14 pm

Unfortunately, as long as there are people in the world desperate for jobs without being able to find them in their own countries, companies like QR will exploit them. And without their own governments cracking down on them, it will continue, unless the company fails through its own fault. Workers from countries with diplomatic clout, such as Sweden, may get a little protection, but workers from countries like the Philippines are completely at the mercy of such companies.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
a380787
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:18 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 37):

It's one thing to have a meaningless token code share on a 3x weekly flight

It's another to invite a major violator of human women and gay rights right into the center of your alliance (QR / Saudia), or disregard all national values by handing over the FF base and the entire European operation on a silver platter (EK/QF)

Airlines can do whatever they want to maximize profits, but as a pax, I vote with my wallet. Kow-tow-ing to ME3 is the last thing I want Star Alliance to do.
 
almehairiauh
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:26 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 13):
And I have heard countless horror stories, the gist of all of them is that it is essentially voluntary slavery.

1st We do have 2 maids 1 is with us for 25 years and the other is 12 years working at our house, we make them feel as their house.
2nd There is the Philippines embassy under them, and the Philippines Embassy had put 400 US dollers a minimum salary per month.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):
It isnt. EK is actually far worse. Just look at Dubai itself. Its a city built by modern day slaves mainly from the Philippines and Pakistan. Granted, the conditions in their own countries are far worse.

1st no one a salve in this country people come here to help their families back home where thry come from.
2nd their is a law in UAE that labors don't work outdoors between 12pm and 2pm and work for 6 hours only
3rd labors have free accommodation free breakfast, launch and dinner everyday.
4th most of the labors from India and Nepal
 
infinit
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:28 pm

Whenever I look up fares from just about any hub in Southeast Asia- my homebase SIN, BKK or KUL for flights to anywhere iin Europe, the ME3 carriers are almost always the cheapest options in Y with fares often at around $900 while every other airline rarely goes below $1400.

Of course there must be a number of factors why they are cheaper but with such a stark difference in price I always wondered how they could do it. Now if it makes sense if they are paying their employees from poorer states $200! That's blatant exploitation.

I'm a consumer who would pay more for a product that is sustainable in general and not made by a company that exploits its staff.
 
almehairiauh
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:37 pm

EY crew buildings has are open for visitor till 12am and they can stay as much as they want, before entering you just give them your ID and thats it.
EY crew can sleepover anytime they want when they don't have a flight.
The buildings has a supermarket, bank, pool, gym and a cafe.
I personally have many Etihad and Emirates cabin crew friends and they always do parties at their apartments no one does a thing for them. It's their rights.

About UAE we do have human rights, if we did not have human rights their will be over 8 million expats, that are living here while less than 2 million Emirati.
 
slider
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:43 pm

What really pisses me off about this story--besides the actual treatment of the employees--is the behavior of Akbar Al-Baker.

He's a detestable person from all accounts, a totalitarian sort of CEO, yet the airline world practically worships the guy. The Airline Business magazine writers hail the guy and worship the ground he walks on, hailing him as a visionary leader and have named him airline exec of the year at least once and have put him on the cover at least twice that I can recall.

It angers me to see it.
 
q120
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:51 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 64):
Some people have mentioned Shari'ah in connection with the restrictive and oppressive conditions at QR, as if to suggest the attitude and approach is based on it. Yet if stories of Al Baker being rude and abusive towards inductees are true, then it is clear that he is displaying the arrogance and disdain for workers that the Phophet condemned.


Shari'ah is what makes up their dumb laws, so yes the reality of things is that Al Baker just enjoys those laws and those laws are all in favor of the men. Women are second class citizens in these countries so the way all these muslim airlines treat their employees is just common practise to them. People will still flock there because they pay well but expect to follow their stone age laws in order to satisfy them. These people love slavery and they will continue to treat people this way because they can. Human rights in muslims countries lol  
Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 64):
Oppressive and unjust behaviour towards employees is specifically condemned in the Qur'an


Yeah im pretty sure the Qur'an is not an employee human rights manual so when you say "specifically" I find it hard to believe it says "employees" or anything of that nature including anything to do with being fair or unjust. etc.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
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par13del
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:04 pm

So my questions, since unions are illegal which as we know from our own history were instrumental in getting the type of job conditions enjoyed in the Western world today, and countries will not cease trade or prohibit their citizens from taking jobs with QR, what exactly is the solution to the situation?

Quoting zeke (Reply 28):
It is the consumers choice.

I recall when it was revealed that Nike shoes were being made in sweat shops by children it became more than just the consumers choice, in this case maybe it is because QR is small in size and importance?
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:09 pm

Quoting almehairiauh (Reply 68):
1st We do have 2 maids 1 is with us for 25 years and the other is 12 years working at our house, we make them feel as their house.
2nd There is the Philippines embassy under them, and the Philippines Embassy had put 400 US dollers a minimum salary per month.

I salute you for treating your staff well. I certainly did not mean to imply that ALL Philippine workers get treated badly. The problem is that there is virtually no recourse for those that do. I have one particular case in mind, where a Philippine woman with children was abandoned by her husband, and went to work in the Middle East (I do not know in which country) ironically for an American company, and was cheated out of (I think) three month's pay, as well as being treated very badly as well. The Philippine embassy was no help at all, and she had a very difficult time getting home. And my fiancee tells me that many women working as domestics get sexually assaulted, and there is no recourse at all.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
SCQ83
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:12 pm

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 54):
There is a thing I do not understand in here: is it mandatory to live in the QR accomodations? I have a friend who is working in Qatar for QF ( not as a FA ) and he is sharing an appartment with some other work mates. I mean, are you free to live somewhere else rather than on that prission?

I don't know how the ME3 deal with the accomodations of their staff, but having worked in the area (in an unrelated industry), you should take into consideration that the logics of free market do not apply there.

So imagine that you are Qatar Airways or Emirates (government-backed corporations) which means that basically you can get free land to build those "accomodations", cost of construction is dirty cheap (no taxes, construction labour is very cheap too) and maintenance is cheap as well. However, at "free" market rates, Doha, Abu Dhabi or Dubai have expensive rentals equivalent to many major Western cities (again, it is not a free market!). So for Emirates, a fancy tower with a swimming pool for their FAs is gonna be very cheap, and certainly much cheaper than giving a living allowance to their staff if they would have to rent at free market rates. That is very different to what would happen to, let's say, BA would like to build a complex around Heathrow in West London for their staff...!
 
ripcordd
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:15 pm

This is why everyone should boycott flying ME carries until they treat their employees like employees not slaves.
 
ZOROS
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:18 pm

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 76):

Once again, this is a QR issue, not an ME3 problem!
 
SCQ83
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:23 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 71):
What really pisses me off about this story--besides the actual treatment of the employees--is the behavior of Akbar Al-Baker.

He's a detestable person from all accounts, a totalitarian sort of CEO, yet the airline world practically worships the guy. The Airline Business magazine writers hail the guy and worship the ground he walks on, hailing him as a visionary leader and have named him airline exec of the year at least once and have put him on the cover at least twice that I can recall.

It is not surprising. Qatar has a lot of interests in banking, property and industry in Europe and the US. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_Investment_Authority Same for Abu Dhabi with ADIA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Dhabi_Investment_Authority Don't bite the hand that feeds you  

Ironically, since Dubai is "poorer" (they don't have that much oil), they have invested more in their own place, their economy has became more diversified and probably a "bit" more advanced in human rights (just a bit!). I guess even within the Gulf you can see the "Resource Curse" theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse
 
SKAirbus
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:32 pm

I for one am boycotting the entire Middle East region. Even countries like the UAE who claim to be the most liberal, are far from perfect. In the case of the Norwegian woman who was jailed for reporting her own rape. I mean what civilised country would do such a thing???

My advice would be to QR cabin crew that they should get out... if they can. The fact that foreign workers have to apply for exit visas is a form of imprisonment where airlines like QR are closely linked to government agencies (look at how bank accounts can be frozen for staff that are fired for example, and how reentry can be denied to those who want to visit).

I wonder how many crew have jumped ship whilst on a layover? I also wonder whether or not QR deliberately do not assign crew to flights to their own countries for this reason?
Base: BRU
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:34 pm

"Pretty sure" on the basis of the documents to which I refer, "Pretty sure" based on a knowledge of the labour laws of the different countries, or "Pretty sure" on the basis of it not fitting preconceptions?

In the UAE, for example, the legal status of women is that of equality and the UAE has been actively promoting women in leading roles, including Ministerial and Diplomatic posts. Emirates airline has appointed women as country manager in a number of countries, including in the ME region. This does not mean that there aren't inequalities but how does that compare to the position in other countries in the region?

But you are right. The Qur'an does not use the word employees. It uses words like master and servant and even slave, yet if you choose to read it you will find that the core notion of treating justly those under your control is present.

You will also find that "all these muslim airlines" do not treat their employees the same. We see in this thread that the way EY and EK treat their employees is nowhere near as bad as QR, and how are staff at GA treated? We never read of complaints about them. Perhaps they are treated better or there are no Europeans willing to complain, so no one cares.
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
flyboy_se
Posts: 764
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:42 pm

Quoting airproxx (Reply 61):
Unless you have to pay the bills.  
Being paid well doesn't mean conditions are different from slavery. This is modern ages I guess, but still it remains slavery. Like it or not

So in this case it is self imposed slavery. Having an option to leave but still staying allthough being treated horribly.
I have hard time feeling sorry for people complaining but then not doing anything about it.

If more people would vote with their feet about bad treatment, the airline would have problem finding new staff and eventually they would need to look into their procedures.

My problem is most of the posts are "i heard from a friend". It is like Chinese whispers, some things get added along the way. If so many crew were fired or left for bad treatment, why have we not heard so much untill now. It is always possible to be anonymous.

I am not saying the conditions in QR are bread and butter, however i have hard time believing it is same as slavery.
I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
 
atlflyer
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:17 pm

Possibly the work conditions at EK are better but not much. I know a guy who was a FA for them and left for a week to visit a sick family member. During that week, the family member took a turn for the worst so he requested an additional week off. His request was denied and was ordered to return to Dubai immediately. He stayed for the funeral that week. When he tried to return to Dubai after, he was told his visa was revoked and bank account frozen and was banned from returning to the UAE for life. He couldn't even go back to retrieve his things. He was literally left with only the clothes on his back.
As he put it to describe the UAE, Space Age architecture, Stone Age labor laws.
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:17 pm

We need international labor standards, and essentially they need to cover worker protection and legal rights. The most basic is the right to be safe, quit a job and return home.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
ZOROS
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:25 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 75):

As far as I know EK doesn't get any cheap land to build accommodation, they are all rented to EK.

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 82):

I don't know how long ago your friend worked for EK, but I have never heard about anyone being fired for taking emergency leave visiting a sick family member! Unless he left the country for a month or more without telling EK, then yeah he would get his visa cancelled and most likely an entry ban. That is a fact and a well known one amongst crew, we know our rights in situations like that.
 
flyboy_se
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:26 pm

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 83):
We need international labor standards, and essentially they need to cover worker protection and legal rights. The most basic is the right to be safe, quit a job and return home.

Absolutely agree. Maybe this is something that ICAO can work on. It would be great if there was an international minimum that all airlines have to follow regarding crew conditions.
I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
 
lucce
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:46 pm

I've been to Dubai twice and on the second time there we met a Finn who worked there in a white collar position. What she told us was a real eye opener because after that I began to notice all the things that were there I hadn't been paying attention to. For example the cage-like buses they use to transport construction workers in or Carrefour workers sleeping in underpasses. I have absolutely no desire to return to those countries ever again.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
I expect few passengers would even think about such issues and would be more likely to fly QR if only due to their 9-abreast seating on 777s compared to 10-abreast on EK/EY.

Nobody is forced to work for QR. It's the employees' choice if they want to accept the working conditions or not.

I don't think that many realize what it is actually going to be like before joining nor are they truthfully represented in their contracts and once working there, they have a service bond. It's hard for them to walk away if it means leaving their money, possessions etc and dumping so much effort down the drain. Conditions like this shouldn't exist, period. During the industrial revolution in 18th century England nobody forced the employees to work with slave wages in extremely dangerous and hazardous conditions, did they?

Quoting flyboy_se (Reply 81):
My problem is most of the posts are "i heard from a friend". It is like Chinese whispers, some things get added along the way. If so many crew were fired or left for bad treatment, why have we not heard so much untill now. It is always possible to be anonymous.

What do you want? Official, independent studies? Well, living in Qatar you should know that won't happen... But with just a quick search in google about the key words of the article I found several accounts of the poor treatment dating back to early 2000's.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:47 pm

Quoting flyboy_se (Reply 85):
Absolutely agree. Maybe this is something that ICAO can work on. It would be great if there was an international minimum that all airlines have to follow regarding crew conditions.

Then what, as long as auditing agency says airline is good, all complaints are not valid. Excellent and convenient strategy.

Truth is ME3 run an excellent PR campaign. There is no way for a single employee or group of employees to beat their PR machine. They take good care of management and sales agents so the media is covered.

In 2010 there were quite a few pilots hoping an auditing agency will help with their working conditions later to their dismay the issue was not even part of audit findings. This is based on information on pilot forums and there is no official word. No one knows if those posts are valid. Wall Street Journal quotes similar issue without naming the source.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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3rdGen
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:49 pm

Quoting q120 (Reply 72):

Yes the Quran does specifically mention protection for workers

{Serve Allah, and make not any partners with Him in His divinity. Do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the companion by your side, the way-farer (you meet) and those whom your right hands possess (your workers): for Allah loves not the arrogant, the vainglorious. (Nor) those who are stingy, or enjoin stinginess on others, or hide the bounties which Allah has bestowed on them; for We have prepared, for those who are ungrateful, a humiliating punishment.} (An-Nisaa' 4:36-37)

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said the following words in his last sermon:
"O people, indeed your Lord is one and your father is one. Behold, there is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for a white person over a black person, nor for a black person over a white person, except through piety." (Musnad Ahmad)

Allah says in the Qur'an {O you who believe, fulfill your contracts.} (Al-Ma'idah 5: 1)

The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said,

"Your brothers are your responsibility. Allah has made them under your hands. So whosoever has a brother under his hand, let him give him food as he eats and dress as he dresses. Do not give them work that will overburden them and if you give them such task then provide them assistance." (Al-Bukhari)

Workers should be given proper and just wages. Exploitation of any person is not allowed in Islam. Allah says,

{To the Madyan people We sent Shu'aib, one of their own brethren. He said: "O my people, worship Allah; you have no other god but Him. Now has come unto you a Clear (Sign) from your Lord. Give just measure and weight, nor withhold from the people the things that are their due; and do no mischief on the earth after it has been set in order: that will be best for you, if you have Faith.} (Al-A'raf 7: 85)

Allah warns those who take full measure but give less to others:

{Woe to those that deal in fraud. Those who, when they have to receive by measure from men, exact full measure. But when they have to give by measure or weight to men, give less than due. Do they not think that they will be called to account? On a Mighty Day. A Day when (all) mankind will stand before the Lord of the Worlds.} (Al-Mutaffifin 83:1-6)

Workers should also be paid on time. The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Give to the worker his wages before his sweat dries." (Ibn Majah)



Please avoid making assumptions because you are too lazy to find out things for yourself. To just say that hey probably the Qur'an doesn't say these things just because it suits your way of thinking about the world, when you haven't even bothered to read it is the height of ignorance and it eventually leads to your desensitisation of an entire people. This in turn means that when you see innocent Muslims dying your attitude is just, "who cares" and you continue to turn a blind eye.



The issue in the Middle East is that yes, the people are more conservative when it comes to things like alcohol mixing of the sexes, and yes Islam and the Quran asks Muslims to refrain from certain things. Asa result westerners may find it hard to live in the ME. However, when it comes to personal freedom to chose a job, to have your contract upheld, to be treated with dignity, to be treated justly and like a human being, then no, many people in the Middle East are not following Islam or the Shari'a.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
thrufru
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:54 pm

I flew on QR several years ago. While the onboard staff was fantastic, the airline representatives in the terminal and at security were horrific. I was with 7 coworkers returning to the US. As was our company standard, we were traveling in uniform. The security agents were abusive to not just us but virtually all the coach class passengers.

An Indian family with an infant had all of their formula confiscated as contraband due to the US liquids ban. When our captain tried to explain to him that this was permitted under US Regs, he threatened to have him arrested and all of us removed from the flight. The mother was sobbing uncontrollably and begging for the formula so she could feed her child on the flight to JFK. I approaced the two uniformed QR agents and asked for help. They were completely dismissive.

As they went through my bag, they removed some small pottery bowls I'd bought at the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul, claiming they could be broken and used as weapons. I asked the agent to return to the check in counter so that I could check my kit bag now, too. I was refused. It wasn't until the security guard continued going through our flight kits and threatened to take away our headsets and manuals (lest we attempt to do something nefarious) that the agent finally stepped forward.

Throughout this whole process, it was obvious that the QR employees were only there as window dressing, and that based on the way the guards were confiscating "contraband" they were doing it for personal enrichment.

When I returned home, I wrote an exhaustive letter to QR. I detailed every aspect of the trip focussing mostly on the experience in Doha. I sent the email 4 seperate times. I never received a single reply. For an airline to tout their service as the world's only 5 star airline, you'd think they'd actually take the time to respond.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:10 pm

Quoting flyboy_se (Reply 81):

So in this case it is self imposed slavery. Having an option to leave but still staying allthough being treated horribly.
I have hard time feeling sorry for people complaining but then not doing anything about it.

There often is the issue of what options do the workers have? I know that many from the Philippines are doing it to support their families, and if they do not their families may have nothing. There is not the welfare state that we in the west take for granted, and these jobs may be the only way that the workers have to escape abject poverty. I have a lot of sympathy for them; as mentioned before, my fiancee was going to do it, even knowing the risks. But thankfully, it did not work out for her.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 71):
He's a detestable person from all accounts, a totalitarian sort of CEO, yet the airline world practically worships the guy. The Airline Business magazine writers hail the guy and worship the ground he walks on, hailing him as a visionary leader and have named him airline exec of the year at least once and have put him on the cover at least twice that I can recall.

Business is business, and it is the same irrespective of whether the company is based in western world or ME or Asia. If a company can get away with paying as little as possible to the employees and mistreating them, they will. The laws in western countries is what prevents companies like LH/BA etc from behaving like ME3 carriers. Why does many US companies pay the minimum wage? Because it is the law. Why are many walmart employees on government sponsored healthcare? Because the companies are following the law to the letter!

Even western oil companies have abused labor and environment in Africa and other places because there is no strong HR/environment laws in those countries. They didn't do the "right thing" because the law didn't require them to do it. They care only for bottom lines, just as every other business in the world does. There is no "moral" or "ethics" in companies. They have their values to put up a facade, and to protect themselves against future lawsuits.

It is not a QR problem, but the problem of worker rights in Qatar. If laws were strictly imposed, QR wouldn't be doing it. It is doing that because it knows it can get away with it, and it is owned by that government. So they are not going to take action against themselves! If other companies can do it, they would be doing it by now.

Many western construction companies in ME too pay as little as possible and they use subcontractors so that they can have "plausible deniability" in case someone in western countries accuse them of labor abuse, a potential PR nightmare for them. There were multiple articles on living standards of construction workers in Dubai and other places in middle east. So, any company given a chance will do the same as QR
 
Homobohemicus
Posts: 121
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:33 pm

I know this is turning more into a political forum but I am half Egyptian myself and know how the Middle East is perfectly talented in saving face and turning a blind eye to these matters. My brother lives in Dubai for over 2 years and still swears to me that its a great place to be in for all from building workers to company managers without discrimination. However he fails to see the sadness that his position is built only thanks to his European passport.

I knew that working for Middle Eastern airlines was tough but this is unacceptable. Apologists is saying "these are our traditions and they need to be respected" is just smelly poo. Of course I won't run in Qatar or the UAE with my leather assless chaps, but there is a basic level of decency. I do know that its a terrible generalization but communities that simply rose and changed within one generation with lots of finances to spare do have the feeling that this solves all.

To say "Why would people work there" as well show that they have the immense privilege not to be forced into such situations to fend for themselves and familes enduring such inhumane hardships. When you have a 4 daily flights full of coffins, you need to start thinking! I guess I cannot do anything about it but I can take a stance in never using such an airline (used it only once in my life) and then maybe money would talk. Many should understand that religion is a private thing and even in Egypt they realized after a while that it could be problem and guess what! The unimaginable happened and a constitution banning religious parties was approved by most people!

Its the reality of the world that money talks and CEOs will be doing whatever they wish. I do not mean to be harsh but I do not have a SINGLE shred of doubt that these top managers do order females and males for that matter for their own pleasure and also means and grounds for dismissal. I lived enough in the region to know the sad and very very uncivilized double faced reality and thinking. A classic example would be a small conflict between the Czech Republic and Qatar where a relatively high member of the Royalty was arrested for sex with minors. He was allowed to fly home (QR private jet) to attend a final hearing with Qatar's gov guarantee. What many expected became reality. He got a slap on the wrist, never went through any investigation at home and he was never sent to Prague as he was sentenced!

I would put my view here as non aviation related but QR is to come to Prague soon... I know that all I can do is NOT utilize them no matter what. I have had religion and "these are our ways" shoved down my throat all too often!
 
apfpilot
Posts: 742
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:33 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
Nobody is forced to work for QR. It's the employees' choice if they want to accept the working conditions or not

Yes no one is forced to accept a position with QR however based on what the article says in some cases once they accept they are essentially trapped with the Airline having control over exit visas as well as salary.

Quoting flyboy_se (Reply 81):

So in this case it is self imposed slavery. Having an option to leave but still staying allthough being treated horribly.
I have hard time feeling sorry for people complaining but then not doing anything about it.

Do they have the option to leave though? Again from the article it sounds like QR uses exit visa approval as punishment, not to mention salary confiscation.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
TC957
Posts: 3875
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RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:37 pm

Wow, that article is a fascinating yet shocking read. If it goes viral on the web then QR are in for a big big image problem.
They had better hope that TV stations doing news documentaries don't get hold of this.
 
goosebayguy
Posts: 710
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:12 pm

RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:43 pm

I can tell incredible stories about working in the Middle East which many people would say were completely made up. In 2008 an elevator in a new skyscraper in Bahrain was being tested by using several Indian workers instead of weighted bags. Naturally the brakes failed and several were killed. The attitude towards menial workers is very comparable to slavery. There are many maids hired from poor countries who never make it back home. So QR's attitude doesn't shock me and I find it totally believable.
 
apfpilot
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:19 pm

RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:53 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 94):
They had better hope that TV stations doing news documentaries don't get hold of this.

Exactly look at how Dispatches has treated FR and their issues (and they do have issues) don't even rise close to this level.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
a380787
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:08 pm

Quoting Homobohemicus (Reply 92):
Of course I won't run in Qatar or the UAE with my leather assless chaps, but there is a basic level of decency.

That's too progressive even for Amsterdam ... maybe in SF Castro District is BAU
 
TC957
Posts: 3875
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:08 pm

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 88):

Interesting to learn that - maybe you can send a copy of the Qu'ran to Ali Al Baker for a bit of bedtime reading.
 
q120
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:06 am

RE: Swedish Newspaper Reveals "the Truth About QR"

Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:28 pm

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 88):

inshala habibi
But why are the gulf airlines able to get away with this type of behaviour?
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results

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