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JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:52 pm
by LAXintl
Regulatory filing out that JetBlue is seeking FAA authorization to permanently transfer to American Airlines 24 slot authorizations at JFK, making permanent the 2010 slot exchange whereby AA was able to utilize the 24 former JetBlue JFK slots.

JetBlue states, the transactions is part of a broader agreement the carrier reached covering DCA slots, and is supported by requirements of AA's settlement agreement with the DOJ and does not effect the competitive landscape at JFK nor NYC as subject slots have been under AA's utilization the last 3-years anyhow.


FAA-2007-29320


Suppose clever move by JetBlue. Instead of parting with all cash for DCA slots, they threw in the JFK slots which AA had been utilizing.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:09 pm
by EricR
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Instead of parting with all cash for DCA slots, they threw in the JFK slots which AA had been utilizing.

But this begs the question why they don't want / need the JFK slots. Is the opportunity to make money on additional routes ex-JFK tapped out?

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:16 pm
by slcdeltarumd11
Quoting EricR (Reply 1):

But this begs the question why they don't want / need the JFK slots. Is the opportunity to make money on additional routes ex-JFK tapped out?

NYC is extremely competative and most routes have just tons of service. An airport like DCA beyond perimeter slots have much more value i think.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:59 pm
by jetbluefan1
Quoting EricR (Reply 1):
But this begs the question why they don't want / need the JFK slots. Is the opportunity to make money on additional routes ex-JFK tapped out?

Technically, there are plenty of slots available during non-peak times, so B6 can continue expanding if they want to. Many VFR and leisure-focused markets (i.e. Caribbean, Central America, domestic markets like CHS and SAV) don't require flights at peak times to capture profitable traffic.

That said, I see B6 continuing to consolidate its movements at JFK, while simultaneously upgauging certain flights to the A321 (specifically to BGI, SJU, STI, SDQ, FLL and MCO) and strategically adding markets where the B6 business model works from JFK (i.e. POS).

I also wouldn't be surprised to see B6 exit JFK-ORD/CLT/RDU/HOU and focus exclusively on Florida/Caribbean and other niche domestic within-LGA-perimeter flying (i.e. Upstate NY, CHS, SAV, AUS), in addition to the transcon flying.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:14 pm
by JetBlueCLT
Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 3):

I hate to say it... But JFK-CLT/RDU/HOU/ORD have to go. I love connecting to JFK but I can't speak for all of those station but down in CLT we have a token service schedule. The times suck in my opinion. My thinking is if they end CLT-JFK they could add two flights to BOS and actually have a schedule to CLT!! Lol it's so sad to see JFK slowly diminish for those cities but it's reality.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:44 am
by LAXintl
JetBlue has been living without these slots since 2010, and clearly does not feel the need to have them back.

I'm not sure what the long term picture is for B6 at JFK, but for the most part the operation has matured to a steady state at the airport and companies growth seems more focused places like Boston still and for its upcoming larger home at FLL and also growing its Caribbean/Latin flying.

p.s. - deal also reaffirms AA's interest in JFK in seeking to have these slots be made permanent.

[Edited 2014-02-11 16:45:53]

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:15 am
by flyguy1
Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 3):
That said, I see B6 continuing to consolidate its movements at JFK, while simultaneously upgauging certain flights to the A321 (specifically to BGI, SJU, STI, SDQ, FLL and MCO) and strategically adding markets where the B6 business model works from JFK (i.e. POS).

I would say B6 is doing pretty well at JFK. Even without these slots, they have been operating more flights than ever during peak periods.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:19 am
by jfklganyc
Never say never in aviation...but They're never ending those cities from JFK

They may end IAD

HOU is always full and supposedly profitable

ORD is a mess...but it's the same mess out of BOS

RDU gets a third flight added in non peak times when the slots are available

And to the CLT B6 worker...B6 has a higher fare to JFK than the longer flight to BOS. Jetblue.com and check it out!

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:48 am
by JetBlueCLT
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):

I know! Thanks. I try to check the fares everyday! I was thinking they could put an A320 on the route to increase the profit because the average price is 103 OW I believe! What do I know lol! I just love flying and spotting jetBlue! 

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:42 am
by Moose135
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
Never say never in aviation...but They're never ending those cities from JFK

I hope not - I moved to CLT a year and a half ago, and have flown home several times since, every time on B6. I didn't even realize until I read it on another thread recently that US had a CLT-JFK non-stop, but I much prefer B6 on the E190. I would hate for that to go away.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:45 am
by IADLHR
Does anyone have any idea how B6 is doing with JFK-ABQ-JFK?

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:59 am
by jetbluefan1
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
Never say never in aviation...but They're never ending those cities from JFK

I hope they don't, but B6 dropped JFK-RIC/PIT, which are (somewhat) similar markets to RDU/CLT and, to a lesser extent, HOU/ORD (i.e. they are not leisure markets). B6 failed to connect JFK with DFW or DTW. So I'm not really sure what the strategic merit is to keep some of these routes.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 10):
Does anyone have any idea how B6 is doing with JFK-ABQ-JFK?

Pretty abysmal. But it's still a new market for B6, so I'd give it some more time before writing it off.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:07 am
by Max Q
Maybe i'm missing something but it seems pretty obvious that this is paving the way for a take over by AA.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:18 pm
by silentbob
Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):
Maybe i'm missing something but it seems pretty obvious that this is paving the way for a take over by AA.

AA would lose money on many of the B6 routes, due to their host cost structure. Plus, the DoJ is unlikely to approve any transaction in which AA grows larger. For those reasons alone, I don't see any way that AA takes over B6. I'm sure others can come up with many more.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:31 pm
by usairways85
Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):
Maybe i'm missing something but it seems pretty obvious that this is paving the way for a take over by AA.

How so?

As mentioned several times these slots have been used by AA for a while so this basically maintains status quo with some back office deals.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:45 pm
by MesaFlyGuy
Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):
Quoting silentbob (Reply 13):
Quoting usairways85 (Reply 14):

I think he was saying it jokingly, mocking the DL/AS stuation in SEA  

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:29 pm
by enilria
Quoting EricR (Reply 1):
But this begs the question why they don't want / need the JFK slots.

B6 used to fly hourly on some of the Florida routes. Now with much higher prices the market has dried up and they have a lot of surplus slots. You can blame the price increases on fuel or just B6 maturing, but that's why.

Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 3):
I also wouldn't be surprised to see B6 exit JFK-ORD/CLT/RDU/HOU and focus exclusively on Florida/Caribbean and other niche domestic within-LGA-perimeter flying

So you are saying they are giving up on transcons even though they just developed their new premium transcon product? Can't agree on that one. I don't think they will exit any of those markets you mention any time soon.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 10):
Does anyone have any idea how B6 is doing with JFK-ABQ-JFK?

UA just dropped IAD-ABQ, right? ABQ is just really far to support 1 flight across the country. It's worse for B6 there than UA as they had other services to keep costs down. B6 is keeping a station for 1 RT. I think it must suck.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:46 pm
by realsim
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Suppose clever move by JetBlue. Instead of parting with all cash for DCA slots, they threw in the JFK slots which AA had been utilizing.

Or clever move by AA, who could have asked B6 to permanently transfer the JFK slots if they wanted to be win some of the DCA slots. We don't know how the deal was negotiated, but unlike the 2010 agreement, this time AA had less to lose than B6 (they had to transfer anyway the DCA slots to someone, and they now have PHL apart from JFK). IMO, a win-win for both companies.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:48 pm
by JetBlueCLT
Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 11):

I think CLT is safe on the JFK route. I'm not an expert but the JFK fares are much higher than CLT-BOS. My thinking is CLT-BOS is cheaper because WN is competing with a cheap ticket via BWI. So the JFK flight is essentially covering for the BOS flight and making the CLT station break even. My idea is jetBlue should add an A320 flight from JFK because they can max there profit. I could be totally wrong with this idea but I feel like it would be reasonable, I've been studying the market since they started on July 12,2006.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:47 pm
by a380787
Quoting realsim (Reply 17):
Or clever move by AA, who could have asked B6 to permanently transfer the JFK slots if they wanted to be win some of the DCA slots. We don't know how the deal was negotiated, but unlike the 2010 agreement, this time AA had less to lose than B6 (they had to transfer anyway the DCA slots to someone, and they now have PHL apart from JFK). IMO, a win-win for both companies.

Does the article say what the slot times are for these 24 ? If they're mostly mid-day slots it won't do AA much good since they're not planning to make JFK into a multi-bank domestic hub anyway.

Maybe AA can flood it with more JFK-MIA until they figure out what to do with them (the way USAir flew LGA-PHL)

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:04 pm
by IADLHR
Quoting enilria (Reply 16):
UA just dropped IAD-ABQ, right? ABQ is just really far to support 1 flight across the country. It's worse for B6 there than UA as they had other services to keep costs down. B6 is keeping a station for 1 RT. I think it must suck.

From what I can tell it has been dropped on 3 days and returns to daily sometime in early-mid March. I think the schedule change went ito effect a couple of weeks ago.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:10 pm
by jetbluefan1
Quoting enilria (Reply 16):
So you are saying they are giving up on transcons even though they just developed their new premium transcon product? Can't agree on that one.

That's not what I'm saying. I think you may have accidentally glossed over my full statement. See below:

Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 3):
I also wouldn't be surprised to see B6 exit JFK-ORD/CLT/RDU/HOU and focus exclusively on Florida/Caribbean and other niche domestic within-LGA-perimeter flying (i.e. Upstate NY, CHS, SAV, AUS), in addition to the transcon flying.

They are definitely staying in the transcon business out of JFK. I think the best way to look at B6's JFK operation in the future is:

1. Florida
2. Caribbean/Central America
3. Transcon
4. Niche within-perimeter destinations which do not disproportionately rely on business travel and have strong social ties to NYC (i.e. Upstate NY)

I don't see how places like CLT, RDU, ORD, and HOU fit into any of the above categories.

Granted, such markets make up such a small percentage of B6's ASM's from JFK, so they may just stick around anyway...

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:36 pm
by JAAlbert
Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 3):
Technically, there are plenty of slots available during non-peak times,

What are the slot constricted times at JFK?

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:40 pm
by LAXintl
Quoting a380787 (Reply 19):
Does the article say what the slot times are for these 24 ? If they're mostly mid-day slots it won't do AA much good since they're not planning to make JFK into a multi-bank domestic hub anyway.

Maybe AA can flood it with more JFK-MIA until they figure out what to do with them (the way USAir flew LGA-PHL)

These are not new slots. AA is flying them today, and has been since the 2010 slot trade with B6.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:17 am
by TPA0822
Here's a pretty good article about the issue:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/americ...ines-gets-jfk-slots-023008983.html

It looks like the new AA is making some aggressive moves at JFK to compete with DL.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:34 am
by LAXintl
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 22):
What are the slot constricted times at JFK?

Maximum 81 operations hourly between 0600-2259.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:38 am
by user444555
Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 3):
I also wouldn't be surprised to see B6 exit JFK-ORD/CLT/RDU/HOU and focus exclusively on Florida/Caribbean and other niche domestic within-LGA-perimeter flying (i.e. Upstate NY, CHS, SAV, AUS), in addition to the transcon flying.
AUS is outside the LGA perimeter. AA wanted to fly it for years but had to start JFK instead.

I think talk of an AA/B6 merger is very premature, but AA is the only carrier that B6 could merge with unless things change with UA the biggest at EWR and DL bigger at JFK and LGA. Even then I would foresee a large slot divestiture at JFK.

But AA/US will take a while to complete and I don't think they will be looking to merge again for some time.

[Edited 2014-02-13 19:38:52]

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:42 am
by MesaFlyGuy
Quoting user444555 (Reply 26):
I think talk of an AA/B6 merger is very premature, but AA is the only carrier that B6 could merge with unless things change with UA the biggest at EWR and DL bigger at JFK and LGA. Even then I would foresee a large slot divestiture at JFK.

OR, and this is just an idea, we can go about a day without a merger coming into a conversation? Sometimes airlines can survive on their own!  

I kid of course!   Just having some fun.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:41 am
by HKG212
Not sure if this was covered elsewhere, but any idea what AA will do with these slots?

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:45 am
by MesaFlyGuy
Quoting HKG212 (Reply 28):
Not sure if this was covered elsewhere, but any idea what AA will do with these slots?

They already have them and are using them. It's just that they are currently leased from JetBlue. If this deal goes through, AA will own the slots outright.

RE: JetBlue Permanently Seeks To Sell AA JFK Slots

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:02 am
by HKG212
Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 29):
They already have them and are using them. It's just that they are currently leased from JetBlue. If this deal goes through, AA will own the slots outright.

I see. Thanks!