na
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:21 pm

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...e-amedeo-firms-up-20-a380s-395828/

Seems Doric has renamed itself. Good news for Hamburg and Toulouse in any case.
 
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N14AZ
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:59 pm

Quote from that article:

Quote:
Lapidus confirms however that the lessor has not yet secured customers for the A380s, as it is a "speculative order."

I am confused. Who said it's a "speculative order"? Amedeo formerly known as Doric Lease said this themeselves?

As much as I like to see new orders for quads and as much as I am interested in the A 380-production but this is really a little bit strange. Just my opinion.

Then again, no company would be so stupid to place a "speculative order" for 20 A 380's if they are not sure that they can lease them to someone. Maybe they don't want to name the customers at this stage.

[Edited 2014-02-12 06:07:36]
 
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Stitch
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:00 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 1):
am confused. Who said it's a "speculative order"? Amedeo formerly known as Doric Lease said this themeselves?

That is correct.

Amadeo have ordered 20 A380-800s with no customers already signed up to lease them, so it is a "speculative" order - an engagement in a business transaction involving considerable risk, but offering the chance of large gain.
 
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frigatebird
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:23 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
a "speculative" order - an engagement in a business transaction involving considerable risk, but offering the chance of large gain.

Wouldn't be surprised if Airbus at least partially shares the risk. I don't think they will start any production before the first customer(s) have signed up.
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Stitch
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:41 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 3):
Wouldn't be surprised if Airbus at least partially shares the risk. I don't think they will start any production before the first customer(s) have signed up.

At the time of the MoU, Airbus Sales was going to help Amaedo line up customers, so I assume that remains the case.

And that they have firmed the order leads me to believe they are close with placing at least a fair bit of the frames.
 
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Finn350
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:50 pm

I suppose this order means that Airbus commits itself into building these 20 frames using a standard cabin configuration instead of ramping down the A380 production from 30 per year. I suppose the first of these 20 frames will come out in 2015 using the vacant production slots. Let's hope that the customer airlines can be finalized.
 
Prost
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:55 pm

I know the article says engine selection will be made later, but is there any indication if it will be winner take all?
 
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Stitch
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:40 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 5):
I suppose this order means that Airbus commits itself into building these 20 frames using a standard cabin configuration...

From what I have read, Amadeo will indeed be offering a "standard configuration" for the planes. A Business / Premium Economy / Economy configuration in the 600-seat range sounds reasonable to me.
 
PlaneInsomniac
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:47 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 3):
Wouldn't be surprised if Airbus at least partially shares the risk. I don't think they will start any production before the first customer(s) have signed up.

This doesn't make any sense unless the companies have further economic ties which have not been disclosed. (Which would likely be illegal.)

This is one company placing an order with another company, plain and simple. The linked article already states scheduled delivery dates. As things stand, if Amedeo cannot find lessors under their business model, they will be forced to sell the frames (likely at a low price) or pay compensation to Airbus for breach of contract if they intend not to take them. So, good news for Airbus!

However, (more) bad news for the A380 market. Apparently the best Airbus could come up with for this airshow was the firming of a year-old midsize order by a somewhat questionable entity which has in the meantime already renamed itself and now openly calls their own order "speculative".

Frankly, it doesn't get much worse than this.
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:53 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 8):
However, (more) bad news for the A380 market. Apparently the best Airbus could come up with for this airshow was the firming of a year-old midsize order by a somewhat questionable entity which has in the meantime already renamed itself and now openly calls their own order "speculative".

I'll admit I'm surprised the order was actually firmed, but I'll be even more surprised if they're ever delivered. No one other than EK seems to want any more, and they already have a zillion coming at them. And looking at the current order book, there are more than a handful that are unlikely to ever be taken up.
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tortugamon
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:54 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 5):
I suppose the first of these 20 frames will come out in 2015 using the vacant production slots. Let's hope that the customer airlines can be finalized.

The article says that deliveries start in 2016. The 2015 slots were only for existing customers because of the long lead times. I think the A380 crew may be getting a little extra vacation in 2015.

tortugamon
 
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Stitch
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:44 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 8):
Apparently the best Airbus could come up with for this airshow was the firming of a year-old midsize order by a somewhat questionable entity which has in the meantime already renamed itself and now openly calls their own order "speculative".

Airbus supposedly has A380 delivery positions aplenty from 2016 onwards, so it was not like Amadeo was under pressure to firm their order to secure slots in a crowded production queue. And considering how long Airbus carried IT's order on their books after it was clear that airline would never take delivery it is very unlikely that they gave Amadeo an ultimatum of "firm by Singapore or we will cancel your MoU and force you to renegotiate at terms more onerous to your position".

I posit Amadeo firmed because they were ready and even though they admit to not having customers pre-signed (hence the "speculative" part of "speculative order"), they must feel very confident they're close.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 8):
Frankly, it doesn't get much worse than this.

Like Apple, Airbus must always be doomed no matter what they do.   
 
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:50 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
I posit Amadeo firmed because they were ready and even though they admit to not having customers pre-signed (hence the "speculative" part of "speculative order"), they must feel very confident they're close.

But why firm it then, why not wait until you have all/most customers under contract? I think Airbus had to give them some outs / cancellation rights or they already have some 2016 deliveries that they needed to get moving on.

edit: And don't these orders have to come relatively quick? If they do neo the A380 then surely the production slots in 2018 and 2019 would need more discounts than were evident here. Could be wrong but this ceo version is going to get less and less valuable.

tortugamon

[Edited 2014-02-12 10:52:23]
 
AustrianZRH
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:23 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 8):
However, (more) bad news for the A380 market. Apparently the best Airbus could come up with for this airshow was the firming of a year-old midsize order by a somewhat questionable entity which has in the meantime already renamed itself and now openly calls their own order "speculative".

Frankly, it doesn't get much worse than this.

Yes, really, what worse can happen to a company than getting a firm order worth, probably, 5 to 6 billion dollars after discounts...
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:26 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 5):
I suppose this order means that Airbus commits itself into building these 20 frames using a standard cabin configuration

Interesting point - won't a standardized cabin limit the airlines willing to take these planes? Emirates and Singapore both have customized cabins, as do most of the other operators. Taking a plane with a different cabin layout and design would muddle these carriers' product offerings and style.

Maybe United will take a few  
 
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Stitch
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:27 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 12):
But why firm it then, why not wait until you have all/most customers under contract?

Media exposure?

Major air shows are when many customers wish to make their announcements because they're going to get maximum coverage. Otherwise they need to wait until May for ILA Berlin or July for Farnborough and while a 20-frame A380 order would headline for a time at Farnborough, it likely won't headline for as long and hard as it will at Singapore.



Quoting tortugamon (Reply 12):
I think Airbus had to give them some outs / cancellation rights or they already have some 2016 deliveries that they needed to get moving on.

At the moment it looks like Airbus has 4 to 6 2016 delivery positions filled, leaving 24-26 open. Unless Amadeo wants all 20 all in 2016, Airbus should have planet of delivery flexibility and therefore I don't see Amadeo having to commit at Singapore in order to secure 2016 delivery positions (and those only make sense if Amadeo has customers in advanced negotiations who want 2016 deliveries).



Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 14):
Interesting point - won't a standardized cabin limit the airlines willing to take these planes? Emirates and Singapore both have customized cabins, as do most of the other operators. Taking a plane with a different cabin layout and design would muddle these carriers' product offerings and style.

I am of the opinion that current A380 customers will NOT be candidates for Amadeo A380-800s.

Instead, Amadeo will probably be trying to secure operating leases from new customers who operate a three-class (Business | Premium Economy | Economy) configuration.

I could see four sets of five planes configured using the most popular 3-4 models of Business, Premium Economy and Economy seating. That should provide enough variation to match (or improve) on the product of potential customers.

[Edited 2014-02-12 11:33:35]
 
RubberJungle
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting na (Thread starter):
Seems Doric has renamed itself

Not sure why any company would choose a name which is so easily misspelled.
 
ZKCIF
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:37 pm

Quoting RubberJungle (Reply 16):
Not sure why any company would choose a name which is so easily misspelled.

spell QANTAS  
 
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clickhappy
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:48 pm

These are odd quotes from Amadeo about their order:

"We see how airlines that do not yet have the A380 are interested in it and approach us and ask questions, which shows us that there is pent-up demand for this aircraft," he told a news conference.

He said there were about 10-15 airlines that were potential first-time customers for the new A380s but said he hoped all 20 aircraft could be placed in only two or three transactions, without being more specific.

I don't understand how Amadeo ordering the A380 creates new demand. Are there really "10-15" airlines that want the A380 but can only get them from Amadeo? What is it about this order that makes the risk worthwhile, yet stimulates the demand? The obvious choice is that the price is very attractive, as well as the lease rates. Any other ideas?
 
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Stitch
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:06 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 18):
I don't understand how Amadeo ordering the A380 creates new demand. Are there really "10-15" airlines that want the A380 but can only get them from Amadeo? What is it about this order that makes the risk worthwhile, yet stimulates the demand?

One item might be the lease term. A sale-and-leaseback appears to involve a 10-12 year term so a direct lease could offer a customer a lower term if they believe they can use an A380, but want an "escape clause" in case their projections do not pan out. And if they do, they just extend the term.

Another item is cost of capital. For customers who do not have top credit ratings, leasing may be a smarter financial option than buying. Or even if a customer does have a solid credit rating, they may not want to tie-up the capital / take on the debt load necessary to purchase 4-5 A380-800s.

Amedeo could offer favorable lease terms, but they won't want to be too favorable lest it impact the lease rates they are getting on their sale-and-leaseback deals with EK, SQ and LH. And considering Amedeo's management team are the ones who made Doric Aircraft Finance (and the various Nimrod funds) so successful in buying and leasing-back A380s I am of the opinion they know what the market values an A380 lease at.

[Edited 2014-02-12 12:22:38]
 
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EPA001
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:12 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 18):
Amadeo

Though easily understandable, the new name of Doric is not Amadeo, but it is Amedeo.  

Even though they call the order speculative at this time, they must feel confident about the progress of their talks with potential customers. Otherwise they would not have firmed up the commitments they agreed on with Airbus in 2013.  
 
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:13 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 8):
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 3):
Wouldn't be surprised if Airbus at least partially shares the risk. I don't think they will start any production before the first customer(s) have signed up.

This doesn't make any sense unless the companies have further economic ties which have not been disclosed. (Which would likely be illegal.)

This is one company placing an order with another company, plain and simple. The linked article already states scheduled delivery dates. As things stand, if Amedeo cannot find lessors under their business model, they will be forced to sell the frames (likely at a low price) or pay compensation to Airbus for breach of contract if they intend not to take them. So, good news for Airbus!

However, (more) bad news for the A380 market. Apparently the best Airbus could come up with for this airshow was the firming of a year-old midsize order by a somewhat questionable entity which has in the meantime already renamed itself and now openly calls their own order "speculative".

Frankly, it doesn't get much worse than this.

It is very common for the manufacturers to help Lessors find customers for their aircraft. Airbus may very well have customers interested in additional A380s but who don't have the capital to readily buy them. Thus, Amedeo buys them and leases them to those same airlines instead. It's just business. Nothing illegal about that.
 
jayunited
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:15 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 18):
He said there were about 10-15 airlines that were potential first-time customers for the new A380s but said he hoped all 20 aircraft could be placed in only two or three transactions, without being more specific.

I don't understand how Amadeo ordering the A380 creates new demand. Are there really "10-15" airlines that want the A380 but can only get them from Amadeo? What is it about this order that makes the risk worthwhile, yet stimulates the demand? The obvious choice is that the price is very attractive, as well as the lease rates. Any other ideas?

I had the exact same questions when I hear Amedeo firmed up their order and it is what airlines are they talking about? And while Amedeo might be able to offer attractive pricing the question is how attractive can they make the leases while still making a profit themselves?


While this is great news for Airbus and the A380 program we will have to wait and see if its great news for Amedeo because they still have to find customers to lease these planes out to.
 
Prost
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:18 pm

I'd be interested if the carriers interested could lease for shorter 4-6 year terms to see if the plane fits their route structures?
 
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Ab345
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:20 pm

We seem to be forgetting that besides EK there are at least two operators that will show a totally different use of the A380 than EK LH AF etc..Transaero and Skymark will presumably operate the frame in a whole different direction. Maybe Amedeo aims at that market?
 
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Finn350
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:38 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 14):Interesting point - won't a standardized cabin limit the airlines willing to take these planes? Emirates and Singapore both have customized cabins, as do most of the other operators. Taking a plane with a different cabin layout and design would muddle these carriers' product offerings and style.
I am of the opinion that current A380 customers will NOT be candidates for Amadeo A380-800s.

That is my understaning too. These frames are not meant for the blue-chip airlines but for the 2nd tier carriers in a standardized configuration (which also means lower manufacturing cost than that of the blue chip carries each having its own highly individualized cabin configuration).

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 18):
I don't understand how Amadeo ordering the A380 creates new demand. Are there really "10-15" airlines that want the A380 but can only get them from Amadeo? What is it about this order that makes the risk worthwhile, yet stimulates the demand? The obvious choice is that the price is very attractive, as well as the lease rates. Any other ideas?

I suppose that it was Airbus who had to make the decision: either ramp down the A380 production rate or commit into building these frames, essentially taking a "speculative" order from Amadeo. The cancellation fees in this case are probably very low, as I can't imagine the investors are willing to commit their funds until Amadeo has customers.
 
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:41 pm

Guess we should take a look into the corner of those airlines who had signalled interest e.g. LoIs, MoUs etc - these are obvious candidated for leased A380. Vietnam Airlines, Air Austral, Virgin Atlantic come to my mind.
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goosebayguy
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:44 pm

It might be that there are a few Airlines who can only utilise 2 A380's and Airbus were not offering any discounts. Along comes Doric and they obtain a huge discount pass some of it on to the airlines and everyones happy? Who knows but it will be fun finding out which Airlines bite.
 
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par13del
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:48 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Amadeo have ordered 20 A380-800s with no customers already signed up to lease them, so it is a "speculative" order - an engagement in a business transaction involving considerable risk, but offering the chance of large gain.

I was going to ask what's the catch, then you posted the below comment.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
And considering how long Airbus carried IT's order on their books after it was clear that airline would never take delivery it is very unlikely that they gave Amadeo an ultimatum of "firm by Singapore or we will cancel your MoU and force you to renegotiate at terms more onerous to your position".

I still think the question is valid, what's the catch? As another poster mentioned, this is a multi-billion order, that's some risk to take.
 
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:06 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 8):
Frankly, it doesn't get much worse than this.

Yes, it's terrible - 70 firm orders in less than three months. Airbus must be very worried.   
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TC957
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:39 pm

Seems to me that if they want to fit these A380's in a 600 seat configuration without an F class then Amadeo have Russian and Chinese airlines in mind. Possibly a couple to Air Austral as well.
 
rutankrd
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:10 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 30):

Seems to me that if they want to fit these A380's in a 600 seat configuration without an F class then Amadeo have Russian and Chinese airlines in mind. Possibly a couple to Air Austral as well.

And/or a host of Islamic pilgrim shuttlers

Garuda/Lionair/Saudia and MAS (yes they already have a few !) - these could account for almost half of the purchases.

Transaero a few more as well, maybe even a few to Skymark.

I have doubts that the idea of fractional leasing arrangements would appeal to the CAAC so I am sceptical that Chinese carriers are necessarily good candidates.
 
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:13 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
Like Apple, Airbus must always be doomed no matter what they do.
Let me get my violin...the A350/330/320 seem to be doing just fine 
[quote=rutankrd,reply=31]Transaero a few more as well, maybe even a few to Skymark.
Quoting Ab345 (Reply 24):
Transaero and Skymark will presumably operate the frame in a whole different direction.

If Skymarks 380s don't make a 180 after passing under the water canon welcome, I'll be surprised. Transaero is more of a wild card, as they seem to be making a whole motley crew of large widebodies work on a wide range of routes, almost entirely leisure.
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chiad
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:48 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 29):

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 8):
Frankly, it doesn't get much worse than this.

Yes, it's terrible - 70 firm orders in less than three months. Airbus must be very worried.

Almost 3 years of production and ..... more orders than the B777X.
 
 
NAV20
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:14 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 29):
Yes, it's terrible - 70 firm orders in less than three months. Airbus must be very worried.

Good one, scrimbl.  
Quoting chiad (Reply 33):
Almost 3 years of production and ..... more orders than the B777X.

Trouble is, though, chiad, that more than half of all outstanding A380 orders - 96 of them - have been placed by Emirates; 50 of them very recently. Emirates lease their aeroplanes for 12 years. It remains to be seen whether Emirates will require 'immediate delivery' of all their current orders, or spread them out over up to 12 years? To my mind the latter appears more likely?
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Stitch
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:20 am

Quoting NAv20 (Reply 34):
Trouble is, though, chiad, that more than half of all outstanding A380 orders - 96 of them - have been placed by Emirates...

And when EK firms, they'll have two-thirds of the current 777X order book. And yet I don't see many folks pointing to that as a bad sign for Boeing or the 777X program.
 
NAV20
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:31 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 35):
And yet I don't see many folks pointing to that as a bad sign for Boeing or the 777X program.

Fair enough, Stitch - but I see the 777X as a 'work in progress,' it may or may not happen.

The A380, on the other hand, is in full production. Airbus is hoping for 30 deliveries a year to keep the line going. Whether that happens or not, as far as I can see, is entirely in the hands of Emirates?
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Stitch
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:35 am

Quoting NAv20 (Reply 36):
Fair enough, Stitch - but I see the 777X as a 'work in progress,' it may or may not happen.

It had better happen, or Boeing is going to have a number of angry customers - and Washington State legislators - on their bum.  
 
tyler81190
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:47 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 35):
And when EK firms, they'll have two-thirds of the current 777X order book. And yet I don't see many folks pointing to that as a bad sign for Boeing or the 777X program.

But what happens when EK starts returning their A380s? They don't keep aircraft for very long and this could be problematic for airbus once they are returned... Will there be a market for second hand A380s?
 
scouseflyer
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:20 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 38):
But what happens when EK starts returning their A380s? They don't keep aircraft for very long and this could be problematic for airbus once they are returned... Will there be a market for second hand A380s?

But they're not going back to Airbus they're going to whichever of the number of lessors that the planes sold and leased back to.
 
tyler81190
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:53 am

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 39):
But they're not going back to Airbus they're going to whichever of the number of lessors that the planes sold and leased back to.

That makes it worse... Then there will be fairly lightly used, premium aircraft on the market which have been well maintained. Who in their right mind would pay full price to airbus when they can get second hand on the cheap?
 
art
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:57 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 40):
Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 39):But they're not going back to Airbus they're going to whichever of the number of lessors that the planes sold and leased back to.

That makes it worse... Then there will be fairly lightly used, premium aircraft on the market which have been well maintained. Who in their right mind would pay full price to airbus when they can get second hand on the cheap?

Emirates?
 
PlaneInsomniac
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:06 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 29):
Yes, it's terrible - 70 firm orders in less than three months. Airbus must be very worried.

Airbus has received more than 70 A380 orders in less than three months? What are you talking about?

Quoting chiad (Reply 33):
Almost 3 years of production and ..... more orders than the B777X.

The A380 has been on offer for more than 13 years, the B777X for less than half a year. Are you trying to make a point about the bad performance of the A380 programme?

Quoting zotan (Reply 21):
It is very common for the manufacturers to help Lessors find customers for their aircraft.

There is a world of difference between helping with marketing efforts and publicly announcing an order as firm when it is not (as has been implied above). The first is business as usual, the latter is definitely a violation of all sorts of laws in various countries. At least the shareholder must be correctly informed about the risks involved in a major business transaction. Keeping the door open for "quietly dropping" an allegedly firm order is certainly not business as usual.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
Like Apple, Airbus must always be doomed no matter what they do.

Who is talking about Airbus? I was talking specifically about the A380 programme.
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
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mariner
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:32 am

Quoting NAv20 (Reply 36):
Whether that happens or not, as far as I can see, is entirely in the hands of Emirates?

Well, Emirates and Amedeo, perhaps.

But what does it matter? If this is the last order ever signed for the aircraft, it isn't going to bankrupt Airbus.

It's a magnificent machine, a great flying experience. How many it sells doesn't affect me in any way whatsoever - it neither steals my wallet nor breaks my leg.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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EPA001
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:20 am

Quoting NAv20 (Reply 34):
It remains to be seen whether Emirates will require 'immediate delivery' of all their current orders, or spread them out over up to 12 years? To my mind the latter appears more likely?

It may seem to you so, but EK wants the newly ordered A380's as soon as possible. If the airport in Dubai would have more space, they would have bought 10 to 20 A380's more then the 50 they ordered last year.

The B777-X order will be delivered to EK over a 10-12 year timeframe. Because they still have so many B777's and A350's coming to them.  

But Amedeo will not be involved in ordering and delivering these A380's to EK. Though they might buy them from EK and lease them back to them. I believe as Doric they have done this already at EK and a number of other A380 customers.
 
tim73
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:44 am

Funny how A380 threads always attract the usual couple of commenters to write the usual sneering, negative remarks.
A380 development costs were only about 11 billion euros. Boeing has wasted today at least 32 billion dollars to develop a much smaller plane, the 787! Still the problems continue, especially in the assembly lines.

A380 has pretty much already paid back the development costs, if you include the much more smoother development of A350. They obviously learned from mistakes in A380 development.
 
Ruscoe
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:54 am

Surely this is a conditional contract with Airbus, and imo the condition will be "subject to finance"

They are not going to get 5 billion from investors, so they will have to have finance, and no prudent bank will lend it based on "speculation"..

So the "firm" order will not become a firm contract, until Amadeo has the finance, and they won't get the finance unless they have customers,
so all round it is fairly safe for both Amadeo and Airbus.

Ruscoe
 
ferpe
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:01 pm

The Amedeo article in AW says there would be 573 seats INCLUDING 11 abrest on the main deck economy section, the Airbus press release says 573 seats when at standard 10 abrest, both 3 class with the same seat number divisions between the classes as far as I can see:

AW
"The Amedeo CEO pushes for better utilization of the A380 cabin as a means to improve efficiency. In particular, he is in favor of the proposed 11-abreast layout in economy class. That would take typical A380 seating to 573 seats, compared to the current 550."

Airbus
"Amedeo’s customers will benefit from unbeatable seat-mile costs for their cabin configurations with a baseline three class, 573 seat layout. The main deck comfortably seats 427 passengers in 18.5 inch wide economy seats, while the upper deck offers 12 first class, 66 business class and 68 economy seats. This cabin layout offers an efficient and at the same time flexible cabin configuration that minimises reconfiguration costs and eases transition from operator to operator."

Clearly a 18.5'' main economy seating is the present 10 abrest.

Now who is right?
Non French in France
 
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BaconButty
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:24 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 47):
Now who is right?

Emirates has 427 Y seats on the main deck of it's A380's (The ones without the main deck crew rest anyway). So 10 abreast according to airbus, with a smaller premium cabin than EK allowing for Y pax on the upper deck.

http://www.seatplans.com/airlines/Em...ans/Emirates-Airbus-A380-config-2/
Down with that sort of thing!
 
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scbriml
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Amedeo Firms Up 20x A380's (Part 1)

Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:24 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 42):
Airbus has received more than 70 A380 orders in less than three months?

I said 70, not "more than" - 50 for EK in December and 20 for Amedeo in February.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 42):
What are you talking about?

See above.   
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