Turboprop72
Topic Author
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AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:39 pm

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...gle-reject-proposed-contract.html/

Good for everyone that this happened! Let's see who can staff the 60 E175 they have on order?
 
tyler81190
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:41 pm

Quoting Turboprop72 (Thread starter):
Good for everyone that this happened! Let's see who can staff the 60 E175 they have on order?

I am sure someone will bid for and get the E175, but staffing it is doubtful... I am happy for the MQ pilots!
 
tyler81190
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:56 pm

Quoting from the article:

“Company representatives made it clear that should the pilots and management fail to reach a deal, the company will not entertain future negotiations,” the ALPA MEC stated. “Negotiators for AAG also stated numerous times that if a deal fails to be ratified, American Eagle Airlines will be downsized continually until it is small enough to liquidate.”

It added: “During the coming days, ALPA will be working with the American Eagle pilots to help them find placement with other airlines. ALPA representatives will ask management for their timetable regarding the liquidation of American Eagle. Stay engaged as we move forward. The need for unity is more critical now than any other time in our history.”

I highly doubt AAG will simply liquidate MQ since they have been unable to squeeze more money out of them. But I do hope if true, ALPA will hold to their promise and get their pilots assistance in other employment. I hope ALPA encourages all of the MQ pilots to leave well before liquidation can begin to cripple AAG.
 
Turboprop72
Topic Author
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:59 pm

I think the union is giving management some of their threat medicine back.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:09 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 2):
During the coming days, ALPA will be working with the American Eagle pilots to help them find placement with other airlines.

If the regional staffing issue is as dire as claimed, this could be a pretty good calculated risk for the pilots...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
tyler81190
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:28 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
If the regional staffing issue is as dire as claimed, this could be a pretty good calculated risk for the pilots...

I am sure they would be snapped up by just about ANY other regional operator... But I think they would have amazing prospects at mainline carriers since they are finally beginning to hire again.
 
realsim
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:37 am

Quoting Turboprop72 (Reply 3):
I think the union is giving management some of their threat medicine back.

   This is clearly what they are doing, telling to management that they will not accept to negotiate a similar contract after what will come now. And what is that?

1.- The 47 CR7s are gone for sure. Management wants Eagle to be an all Embraer operator. The CR7s will likely be placed at PSA or at Air Wisconsin.
2.- A new rumor is that maybe Mesa could take over Eagle CR7 flying out of LAX with their new CR9s.
3.- Regarding AA's E75s, IMO AA will not place them into another operator before they try another round of negotiations with Envoy after divesting the CR7s. However, the 60 E75s recently ordered by Skywest that have not been assigned to any legacy yet could be revealed to be for AA and that will limit the number of options that Envoy will be able take of the AA order.

After that happens, management will approach the union again, maybe with the same contract or a slightly different one, threatening to shut down the company, and what I understand with today's MEC answer is that they will not accept it anyway with today's terms. Everyone has to remember that Eagle pilots accepted a concessionary contract during BK, and now they are being asked for a new one, with more concessions, just after they have exited BK.

[Edited 2014-02-12 17:20:47]
 
tyler81190
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:43 am

Quoting realsim (Reply 6):
   This is clearly what they are doing, telling to management that they will not accept to negotiate a similar contract after what will come now. And what is that?

1.- The 47 CR7s are gone for sure. Management wants Eagle to be an all Embraer operator. The CR7s will likely be placed at PSA or at Air Wisconsin.
2.- A new rumor is that maybe Mesa could take over Eagle CR7 flying out of LAX with their new CR9s.
3.- Regarding the AA's E75s, IMO AA will not place them into another operator before they try another round of negotiations with Envoy after divesting the CR7s. However, the 60 E75s recently ordered by Skywest that have not been assigned to any legacy yet could be revealed to be for AA and that will limit the number of options that Envoy will be able take of the AA order.

After that happens, management will approach the union again, maybe with the same contract or a slightly different one, theating to shut down the company, and what I understand with today's MEC answer is that they will not accept it anyway with today's terms. Everyone has to remember that Eagle's pilots accepted a concessionary contract during BK, and now they are being asked nor a new one, with more concessions, just after they have exited BK.

I agree wholeheartedly!

But I really wish APLA and the MQ pilots would beat AAG to the punch, if ALPA could secure jobs for ~70%+ of the MQ pilots, and convince them to leave MQ, then AAG would be hurting bad in the near term. ALPA could effectively close MQ before AAG could, and it would be good for the pilots who would have options with a new job, and bad for AA who would suddenly lose a decent chunk of flying, with no fast way to recover. It would take months for AA to recover from something like that.
 
TPA0822
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:54 am

Quoting Turboprop72 (Thread starter):
Good for everyone that this happened! Let's see who can staff the 60 E175 they have on order?

Comair II has just happened. Due to the current regional pilot issues, the order may be reduced, but those jets will most likely wind up in another carrier's fleet.
 
silentbob
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:55 am

Kudos to the Envoy MEC.
 
tyler81190
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:56 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 9):
Kudos to the Envoy MEC.

+1000
 
flyby519
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:08 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 7):
But I really wish APLA and the MQ pilots would beat AAG to the punch, if ALPA could secure jobs for ~70%+ of the MQ pilots, and convince them to leave MQ, then AAG would be hurting bad in the near term. ALPA could effectively close MQ before AAG could, and it would be good for the pilots who would have options with a new job, and bad for AA who would suddenly lose a decent chunk of flying, with no fast way to recover. It would take months for AA to recover from something like that.

That would be awesome, I hope they can make it happen. Good luck to the pilots at Eagle.
 
airtran737
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:13 am

Good for the pilots at MQ. The race to the bottom has to be stopped, and they have put their foot down. The likes of Mesa, GoJet, and Freedom helped speed that race up, but now pilots are finally saying enough. We invest a huge about of money into our careers, and should be compensated fairly for doing so. With mainline carriers profiting hundreds of millions of dollars per year, it is time to pay regional pilots like the professionals that they are.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
AV8AJET
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:27 am

As an employee of the old (ASA) now ExpressJet, I'm very proud of those guys standing up like we did. Enough is enough and the "Race to the Bottom" has to stop!! Goodluck to all of them and my fellow coworkers as we continue our future in the industry.
"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
 
bostonmike
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:28 am

Finally, a regional pilot group drew a line in the sand and said, "We have given enough. As professional aviators, we are worth more".
Thumbs up for the AE MEC.

Now it's time for the Republic pilots to show the same resolve.
 
EricR
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:33 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 7):

If ALPA could secure jobs for ~70%+ of the MQ pilots, and convince them to leave MQ, then AAG would be hurting bad in the near term

I don't think this will have a big impact in the near term. I think it could actually help them financially. MQ was an albatross around the neck of AAG. It is no secret that MQ was not a competitive regional option for AA, hence the reason why they now contract with other regional carriers. While it may cause some flight disruptions, they won't be absorbing the uncompetitive cost structure of MQ anymore.
 
realsim
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:36 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 7):
It would take months for AA to recover from something like that.

I would say years. AA's main regional feed are still those +165 ERJs that cannot be outsourced nor replaced easily. It's not like saying "let's let Air Wisconsin do it", because then US Airways would lose that feed. In fact, AA doesn't want to have less regional aircraft than today, they want to have at least the same or more, but larger. Their starting point is not the same as DL's or UA's, whose regional fleets are much larger than L-AA's, they've had hundreds of 50 seaters + large regional jets for some years now, so they want to get rid of some 50 seaters to replace them with fewer large RJs. AA is just starting to discover this whole large-RJ world, they are late to the game, so they need to maintain a good chunk of their E145s + find how to operate all the large-RJ that they could not operate until now. There's no way Eagle can be shut down unless they find someone to operate: 47 CR7s, ~120 E75s + ~100 E145s, which is impossible right now.

[Edited 2014-02-12 17:39:53]
 
crAAzy
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:45 am

Quoting realsim (Reply 6):

1.- The 47 CR7s are gone for sure. Management wants Eagle to be an all Embraer operator. The CR7s will likely be placed at PSA or at Air Wisconsin.

Which management? Envoy or AA's?
 
Mir
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:48 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 15):
MQ was an albatross around the neck of AAG. It is no secret that MQ was not a competitive regional option for AA, hence the reason why they now contract with other regional carriers. While it may cause some flight disruptions, they won't be absorbing the uncompetitive cost structure of MQ anymore.

If MQ was such an albatross, they wouldn't have come back with other offers after the union refused their previous ones. They would have just gone Comair II on them then. They didn't, which tells me that replacing Eagle's feed is not something they want to have to do.

This may not even be the end of the road - AA may come back with yet another offer.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
TPA0822
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:10 am

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 14):
Thumbs up for the AE MEC.

The only reason I'll give it a thumbs down is because the MEC didn't let their members vote on the proposal. Let's not forget the recent vote at Boeing, where the local IAM District 751 refused to bring it to a vote. Once their decision was overturned, Boeing workers approved the contract, albeit by a very slim margin of 51%.

MEC's are a thing of the past.

Let the trashing of my post begin.
 
bostonmike
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:26 am

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 19):
MEC's are a thing of the past.

Trashing is for children. There has to be some way to filter or refine the offer from the company. At any time during Section 6 negotiations, do you just have the rank and file vote? Do they vote after each and every change? I know the MEC type union governance can be skewed and tainted, but often it works very well.

What are the alternatives you are thinking about?
 
TPA0822
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:33 am

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 20):
What are the alternatives you are thinking about?

Simple, really. Let the MEC debate the contract and then put out a positive/negative analysis to their members. Then, let the members decide, not a select few who may have their own agenda.
 
n7371f
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:21 am

By by Eagle. You would've thought the demise of Comair would be enough. And it's not like Dougie and his troops aren't as ruthless as Richard and Delta.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:39 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 22):
By by Eagle. You would've thought the demise of Comair would be enough. And it's not like Dougie and his troops aren't as ruthless as Richard and Delta.

Comair had 1700 pilots at its peak, to over 5 years to wind down, and that was during a period with a surplus of pilots.

Now there is a complete shortage of pilots (willing to work for regional wages) and AE has 7800 total pilots.

One of these things is not like the other!
Chicks dig winglets.
 
tyler81190
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:20 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 23):
Comair had 1700 pilots at its peak, to over 5 years to wind down, and that was during a period with a surplus of pilots.

Now there is a complete shortage of pilots (willing to work for regional wages) and AE has 7800 total pilots.

One of these things is not like the other!

Comair was wound down over several years, yes. But the final blow came quick and sudden. Delta had a benefit in the OH demise as they (DL) owned all of the aircraft, and could easily place them at another carrier (minus the 200s).

Shortage of pilots who are willing to work for regional pay is debatable.. Those who have already spent the $$ to be eligible are desperate for work. But those who aspire, but have not already committed to the flying are scared away by the salary and lifestyle. We will not see a "true" shortage of pilots for probably a year or two, when the majors finally dry up the pool of regional crews, and now regionals are forced to either close, or offer outrageous (for a regional) salary and work rules.


The difference with MQ is that there will not be the 5 or so years to wind down operations. Once the pilots see the first strike, the will flee the sinking ship like an Impala from a lion in the sahara. The other regional carriers better be watching this situation unfold, and try to prop up salaries to woo the MQ pilots to fly for them once the ship starts taking on more water. This will leave MQ (management) high and dry, and AAG with no other option but to pull the plug, and suffer the consequences of a sudden loss of feed. Dozens of stations will be cut off until AA figures out what to do, and in those few short weeks of complete meltdown, passengers will flee to the other carriers, WN, DL, UA.

If MQ is suddenly closed either by the pilots, or the management (stupid decision to immediately liquidate), I think scenes at the airports will rival what happened to Eastern under Lorenzo.
 
onetogo
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:23 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 23):
AE has 7800 total pilots.

Oh boy. Typo you'd like to correct, or just admit to being completely not even close?
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:44 am

Quoting Reply 25):
Oh boy. Typo you'd like to correct, or just admit to being completely not even close?

That was supposed to say 2800, but it's actually closer to 3000. The point remains the same.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 24):
We will not see a "true" shortage of pilots for probably a year or two, when the majors finally dry up the pool of regional crews,

I agree with that. However, even right now RAH cannot staff the airline properly because there's just no pool of prospective pilots willing to go there. They are shutting down their CHQ division as a result. Pinnacle(Endeavor) needs about 30 pilots a month to be hired for staffing.. they got 4 in January and 5 this month. All the regionals have similar stories.

The MQ pilots know they hold the cards in this situation and called AA's bluff.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
silentbob
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:07 am

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 19):
The only reason I'll give it a thumbs down is because the MEC didn't let their members vote on the proposal.

You make an excellent point, however...

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 21):
Let the MEC debate the contract and then put out a positive/negative analysis to their members. Then, let the members decide, not a select few who may have their own agenda.

With it being such a long term contract, a large number of pilots would have voted for it knowing that they would be gone soon and they would not be suffering under that contract. Is it fair to give someone a vote if they know that they aren't going to have to work under those rules? It's also not like this was the result of meaningful negotiations. This was the company making a concessionary offer, despite the fact that there was a collective bargaining agreement already in place. An agreement with a significant number of concessions to begin with. I think there is room to both question and defend the decision.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 24):
Shortage of pilots who are willing to work for regional pay is debatable

Tell that to Republic and Express Jet.
 
tyler81190
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:21 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 27):
Tell that to Republic and Express Jet.

Let me explain, see below.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 26):
I agree with that. However, even right now RAH cannot staff the airline properly because there's just no pool of prospective pilots willing to go there. They are shutting down their CHQ division as a result. Pinnacle(Endeavor) needs about 30 pilots a month to be hired for staffing.. they got 4 in January and 5 this month. All the regionals have similar stories.

The MQ pilots know they hold the cards in this situation and called AA's bluff.

There are lots of pilots out there... But many of them are getting better offers that what RP and EV are offering. It really is a pilot's market for jobs. Just a few years ago, the airlines held all the cards, and pilots had to take whatever they could get. With al the new rule changes, and the shear expense of gaining the required time to get hired, many "prospective" pilots have chosen alternative degrees. They are no longer seeking the ratings like they were in the past. But I think right now, at the current time, we are not in a "real" shortage, we are in the early stages of a shortage. I think the worst will come in the next year as the mainline carriers hire more from the regionals, and the few that leave the air force, and the corporate sector will take a few as well.

MQ pilots really do have all the cards. I really hope they don't just call the bluff but really return the threat to AA. They have the power to essentially close MQ on their own and have ample job opportunities. A simple strike would bring AA to its knees. Eagle (Envoy) has so many routes for AA that if they were to simply walk away and join another carrier, there would be riots in airports all over the country. Keep in mind that many airports that AA flies to are only served by MQ.

IMO ALPA should make good on its threat and start finding places for its members at MQ, and see how long until AAG caves to their demands.
 
silentbob
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:31 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 28):
There are lots of pilots out there... But many of them are getting better offers that what RP and EV are offering.

Sure, but the fact that RP and EV can't get enough bodies indicates that there is a problem

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 28):
I think the worst will come in the next year as the mainline carriers hire more from the regionals, and the few that leave the air force, and the corporate sector will take a few as well.

I agree that next year will be worse, however, I don't know if that will be the end of it. It all depends on how much the majors are willing to increase their regional costs. I'm not entirely sure they are going to be proactive enough to prevent it from becoming a lot worse.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 28):
But I think right now, at the current time, we are not in a "real" shortage, we are in the early stages of a shortage.

Just because it isn't impacting everyone, or any of the majors, does not mean it isn't here. We've started down the face of the cliff, RP and EV are simply at the front of the train. Eventually, we all go over the edge and most people won't see it until it's too late.
 
tyler81190
Posts: 720
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:45 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 29):

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 28):
There are lots of pilots out there... But many of them are getting better offers that what RP and EV are offering.

Sure, but the fact that RP and EV can't get enough bodies indicates that there is a problem

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 28):
I think the worst will come in the next year as the mainline carriers hire more from the regionals, and the few that leave the air force, and the corporate sector will take a few as well.

I agree that next year will be worse, however, I don't know if that will be the end of it. It all depends on how much the majors are willing to increase their regional costs. I'm not entirely sure they are going to be proactive enough to prevent it from becoming a lot worse.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 28):
But I think right now, at the current time, we are not in a "real" shortage, we are in the early stages of a shortage.

Just because it isn't impacting everyone, or any of the majors, does not mean it isn't here. We've started down the face of the cliff, RP and EV are simply at the front of the train. Eventually, we all go over the edge and most people won't see it until it's too late.

I am not saying there isn't a problem... I am simply saying we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg at this point. I highly doubt any airline will be able to react fast enough to prevent a semi-meltdown in the regionals. I actually kind of hope the train de-rails. It will kind of have a "reset button" effect on the airlines. It will force all airlines large and small to realize that the old ways of doing business aren't sustainable. In the short term, maybe 1 years from now, we will start to see mass cancellations for crew. Right now, RP is only holding back 4 Q400s from UA flying due to crew, and also closing CHQ. That is a BIG deal, but it is only the beginning, it is their way of postponing the worst of what is to come. Considering that RP has 4 un-utilized Q400 aircraft tells me they are about 40 pilots short to operate the full fleet at bare bones staff. RP probably needs 200 pilots over the next 3 years to stay afloat, and they are only getting 5 or so a month.

EV is having a different issue, they aren't exactly parking planes like RP was, they were just making due, having Captains fly right seat. The situation is more dire now, and they are parking some 30 aircraft to cope with shortages. Currently, as far as a passenger is concerned, there is no problem. By the end of 2014 I think passengers will know all too well what is happening. But until it starts affecting large amounts of passengers, I expect nothing to be done.

Side effect: Airfare will increase, probably 10%. Regional carriers that survive will probably try to over-staff slightly to prevent this from happening again. But the major carriers will feel the brunt of the fall.
 
ckfred
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:05 am

What's to say that the mainline operations won't pick up some regional flying. If a route had 7 or 8 Embrear 140/145 flights, that could easily become 3 or 4 A319s, MD-80s, or 738s.

Is AA in a position to slow down MD-80 retirements to pick up the slack, if RJ flying becomes an issue due to lack of pilots?

Back in 1994/95, after the ATR crash in Indiana, AA did some reshuffling of the ORD schedule. Besides moving Saab 340s into ORD, some Eagle routes, like ORD-MKE were being flown by 727s.
 
silentbob
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:14 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 30):
By the end of 2014 I think passengers will know all too well what is happening. But until it starts affecting large amounts of passengers, I expect nothing to be done.

I think it's going to hit this summer, but it will take a year for any changes to be implemented.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 31):

What's to say that the mainline operations won't pick up some regional flying. If a route had 7 or 8 Embrear 140/145 flights, that could easily become 3 or 4 A319s, MD-80s, or 738s.

Those airplanes would have to be pulled off of other routes or you're talking about adding equipment and pilots, likely making the situation at the regional level even worse.
 
tyler81190
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:05 am

Quoting ckfred (Reply 31):
What's to say that the mainline operations won't pick up some regional flying. If a route had 7 or 8 Embrear 140/145 flights, that could easily become 3 or 4 A319s, MD-80s, or 738s.

Is AA in a position to slow down MD-80 retirements to pick up the slack, if RJ flying becomes an issue due to lack of pilots?

Well, it isn't just AA, it is UA as well. The problem with that theory is that the carriers would have to sacrifice capacity on another route to do that. AA is retiring the MD-80 fleet so they could in theory have some slack after the summer schedule, but UA is not retiring that many aircraft that could fill the gaps.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 32):
I think it's going to hit this summer, but it will take a year for any changes to be implemented.

It will get much worse in the summer, but will be in full swing for the winter holidays. Combine no crews with the winter weather and you have a perfect storm.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 32):
Those airplanes would have to be pulled off of other routes or you're talking about adding equipment and pilots, likely making the situation at the regional level even worse.

Exactly, even if they would be willing to pull the aircraft from other routes, they wouldn't see it coming fast enough to do anything about it. If they want to hire more mainline crews and bring in more aircraft, then it will make the regional situation worse. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 
dispatchguy
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:03 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 28):
A simple strike would bring AA to its knees

But would a strike be legal under the RLA? I dont think so. The AE pilots havent been released to "self-help" so they legally cant strike.

Being a former AE Dispatcher, I wish my former colleagues the best!

FUPM
Full Pay to the Last Day
Stop the Whipsaw
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
norcal
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:31 pm

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 2):
I highly doubt AAG will simply liquidate MQ since they have been unable to squeeze more money out of them. But I do hope if true, ALPA will hold to their promise and get their pilots assistance in other employment. I hope ALPA encourages all of the MQ pilots to leave well before liquidation can begin to cripple AAG.

No they won't liquidate MQ, management even back off that threat after it riled up the Eagle pilots. Management probably never should have made that threat in the first place because it turned all the pilots on the fence against the proposal.

According to MQ's union leadership Bill Spruge (sp?) Eagle was losing 30 pilots a month outside of flow, so that 30 plus 20 flow throughs to American is 50 pilots a month or about 5 airplanes. That rate of attrition is going to skyrocket even more as guys who were going to wait to flow go elsewhere. AAG wants to park 50 seaters but losing 5 planes a month worth of pilots (especially since most aren't be recycled to other regionals but are going to mainline or corporate) is way too fast they won't be able to shift resources fast enough to cover the flying MQ does now.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
If the regional staffing issue is as dire as claimed, this could be a pretty good calculated risk for the pilots...

Oh it is a real problem. MQ is losing 50 a month, Republic is filling their classes but they are losing just as many if not more than they are hiring (hence why they are parking the ERJs). I think we might have reached a tipping point with regional airlines.

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 19):
The only reason I'll give it a thumbs down is because the MEC didn't let their members vote on the proposal.

1. MECs don't have to, and shouldn't send, every deal to pilot groups
2. Where do you think the MEC got the idea to kill it? From what I've heard and seen on social media and forums it sounds like they were emailing and calling their representatives and telling them to kill the deal.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 24):
The difference with MQ is that there will not be the 5 or so years to wind down operations. Once the pilots see the first strike, the will flee the sinking ship like an Impala from a lion in the sahara. The other regional carriers better be watching this situation unfold, and try to prop up salaries to woo the MQ pilots to fly for them once the ship starts taking on more water.

There won't be a very large recycling of regional pilots at this time. Most of the guys leaving MQ are headed to mainline or corporate. A handful of super junior guys are starting over, but the regional industry will not benefit much from Eagle shutting down. Even many Comair pilots weren't recycled when that company was shutdown during a much worse environment for pilots.

Quoting realsim (Reply 6):
1.- The 47 CR7s are gone for sure. Management wants Eagle to be an all Embraer operator. The CR7s will likely be placed at PSA or at Air Wisconsin.

Either way they were going, like you said, management wanted Eagle to be an all Embraer operator. I don't think PSA can take on 47 more aircraft. I'm sure they'll announce it but it won't be possible. With 30 new aircraft on the way right now they are doubling in size. 47 more would more than triple their size. They are taking on 2 CRJ-900s a month, so they need to grow their pilot list by about 20 a month (not just hire, but grow) adding Eagle CRJs at even 1 a month (which would take two years to complete transfer) would up the hiring requirements to 30 pilots a month (again seniority list growth, not hiring). Republic proved incapable of doing this (taking 2-3 E-175s a month for AA) and they have much more training resources than PSA since they are a much larger aircraft. Logistically I think it will turn out to be extremely difficult if not impossible to transfer MQs CRJ-700s to PSA

Air Wisconsin is too expensive, and they would have to fall from arguably the best regional pilot contract to the worst regional pilot contract in order to match PSA's costs. I don't see that happening, especially in light of XJet and MQ both saying no, each subsequent regional will have an easier time saying no to concessions

Piedmont doesn't have a CRJ-700 program, that'll take time to set up and they would still need to take concessions.

Mesa is growing by 30 E-175s for United and 9 CRJ-900s for AAG already. I'm not sure if they can take anything else on, especially since they have only 5 50 seaters left to park.

Quoting realsim (Reply 6):
2.- A new rumor is that maybe Mesa could take over Eagle CR7 flying out of LAX with their new CR9s.

The CRJ-900 isn't ASE qualified and neither is Mesa. Mesa could do some of that flying, but not all of it. Again how could they take on Eagle's CRJ-700s with everything else they are doing already?
 
bennett123
Posts: 9185
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:51 pm

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/American%20Airlines.htm

According to airfleets, AA have 173 MD80 in storage, in addition to 154 operational.

How many could realistically be returned to service.

Also what would the economics be like?.
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2514
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:59 pm

I hope they can find some kind of accommodation before it's too late. There is a STRIKING difference in service levels between actual AE and the "connection" carriers that have begin flying for AA along with Eagle. Not to mention that at least one of the non-Eagle carriers uses CR2s.... UGH!!
Great Lakes, great life.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 5602
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:05 pm

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 19):
The only reason I'll give it a thumbs down is because the MEC didn't let their members vote on the proposal

I may be incorrect, but I believe this was a pilot-wide vote. The MEC did allow that to happen. Or am I missing something!
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:09 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 38):
I may be incorrect, but I believe this was a pilot-wide vote. The MEC did allow that to happen. Or am I missing something!

My impression is that it was a pilot wide email and phone call campaign to the representatives on the MEC telling them to kill the deal.

There was no actual pilot vote, just a ton of pilot pressure apparently.
 
ckfred
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:02 pm

A little off topic, but how is the pilot shortage solved? Let's say someone waves a magic wand and doubles pilot pay at the regionals. That doesn't solve the issue of pilots needing 1,500 hours, in order to be hired at any carrier, mainline or regional.

Let's face it. The days of airline pilots getting free training and hours in the U.S. milliary are long gone, because of the downsizing of the military that has gone on for the last several decades. Now, you have to go to an aviation program or a traditional college that offers an aviation program, like Purdue University.

That runs up a lot of student loan debt, as well as finding money, just to get flying time.

Are people just not going into commercial aviation like they used to?
 
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jsnww81
Posts: 2530
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:25 pm

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 37):

I hope they can find some kind of accommodation before it's too late. There is a STRIKING difference in service levels between actual AE and the "connection" carriers that have begin flying for AA along with Eagle. Not to mention that at least one of the non-Eagle carriers uses CR2s.... UGH!!

I've actually found - in Chicago at least - that the opposite is true. I've been flying lots and lots of Republic-operated E175 flights since they began flying for Eagle last year, and I've been pleasantly surprised by how professional and attentive the cabin crews are. In contrast, some of the flight attendants I encountered on MQ's CR7s and E145s seemed to struggle with basic English.

The E175 is the best thing to happen to American's ORD hub in a decade. It's the perfect aircraft for tons of routes that were either undersized with CR7s or oversized with MD80s. But I agree with you on the CR2s... keep those things far, far away from Chicago please!
 
justplanenutz
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:39 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 35):
I don't think PSA can take on 47 more aircraft. I'm sure they'll announce it but it won't be possible. With 30 new aircraft on the way right now they are doubling in size. 47 more would more than triple their size.

Couldn't AAG simply replace the 35 PSA-operated CR2s with Eagle's CR7s? That is net growth of 12 frames (in addition to the CR9s). If Parker really wants to get medieval, it rewards PSA and chops the head off MQ.
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:42 pm

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 41):
The E175 is the best thing to happen to American's ORD hub in a decade. It's the perfect aircraft for tons of routes that were either undersized with CR7s or oversized with MD80s. But I agree with you on the CR2s... keep those things far, far away from Chicago please!

We don't have those yet at DFW - maybe someday! But here, it's either the E140 family (acceptable) or CR2s with the odd CR7 or CR9 thrown in, which I actually like. Just can't STAND the CR2s. I thought in the industry that those penalty tubes were on their way out, but they're a fairly RECENT addition for AA. Troubling development!
Great Lakes, great life.
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:01 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 40):
A little off topic, but how is the pilot shortage solved? Let's say someone waves a magic wand and doubles pilot pay at the regionals. That doesn't solve the issue of pilots needing 1,500 hours, in order to be hired at any carrier, mainline or regional.

No it is a much deeper issue that has been brewing for a long time. Bryan Bedford even said they could go back to the pre-ATP rule system and they would still not be able to staff all of the flying.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 42):
Couldn't AAG simply replace the 35 PSA-operated CR2s with Eagle's CR7s? That is net growth of 12 frames (in addition to the CR9s). If Parker really wants to get medieval, it rewards PSA and chops the head off MQ.

That is an option, but who is going to do all of PSA's current flying? AAG just lost 15 aircraft worth of flying with Republic. Eagle is hemorrhaging 50 pilots a month (about 5 aircraft). Yes they are planning on parking 50 seaters, but this is happening way too fast and not on their terms.

Parking PSA's CR2s would be a bandaid at best. It would also increase upgrade time and hurt their recruiting efforts. The fast upgrade is all they got going for them because their new contract is atrocious. If half of the rumors about what Republic is going to be offering turn out to be true it would be very hard for any new hire to financially justify going to PSA.
 
thrufru
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:48 pm

RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:06 pm

In most instances a Union has absolutely no ability to procure jobs for displaced individuals at other properties. While Unions are often represented on hiring boards (as they are at my carrier) they don't necessarily have a tremendous deal of influence. We'll often network and do our best to assist displaced employees, but in most instances the decision to hire rests with the company, not the union. APLA's promise to assist MQ pilots in doing anything but identifying potential work options is not really all that heartening.
 
SPQR
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:03 am

RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:10 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 36):

On top of getting the planes back in service, they would also have to come up with pilots. If they had to activate 50, that would be 500 pilots needed, most or all would come from regionals making it even harder to shift the work back once things stabilize.

Could this end up being a long term shift in the frequency vs capacity battle? Moving more flying to larger main lines would reduce frequency, but would also reduce overall demand for pilots. This could end up getting planes like the Cseries a second look by carriers if they are forced to use smaller end mainline for more than just a temporary fill.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:22 pm

Quoting n7371f (Reply 22):
By by Eagle. You would've thought the demise of Comair would be enough. And it's not like Dougie and his troops aren't as ruthless as Richard and Delta.

There wasn't an ATP 1500 Hr rating rule nor FAR117 rule when Delta trashed Comair. I believe things might look different Today.
But then again I believe Regional flying might be on the way OUT as well..
 
justplanenutz
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:48 am

RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:58 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 44):
That is an option, but who is going to do all of PSA's current flying? AAG just lost 15 aircraft worth of flying with Republic. Eagle is hemorrhaging 50 pilots a month (about 5 aircraft). Yes they are planning on parking 50 seaters, but this is happening way too fast and not on their terms.

In the next ~18 months (excluding the 60 E175s in question), AA has committed to 58 new 76 seat large RJs (24 more E175s for Republic, 30 CR9s for PSA and 4 CR9s for Mesa). That is 4,408 seats. We know Republic is parking 15 ERJ-140s, so that is 660 seats. PSA's 35 CR2s would be another 1,750 seats. That would still allow AAG to ground nearly the entire MQ ER-140 fleet (59 frames) and not lose any capacity.

[Edited 2014-02-13 11:01:18]
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 660
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:06 pm

RE: AE/Envoy MEC Reject AIP

Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:04 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 47):
There wasn't an ATP 1500 Hr rating rule nor FAR117 rule when Delta trashed Comair. I believe things might look different Today.
But then again I believe Regional flying might be on the way OUT as well..

+1

I am amused at the threat to liquidate.........liquidate what??   One hundred seventy-ish 140/5's that no one wants or can staff? Other hard assets like gates/ground equipment/IT are all owned by AAG so divestiture would be tantamount to selling assets to the competition. I can not see AA handing the keys to the G or L gates at ORD over to NK .

As I have said in other posts, I see Eaglett/Envoy (and every other regional) shrinking in tandem with their staffing levels. Eventually they will hit an equilibrium; but the sector will be at least half the size of where it is today.

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