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Mortyman
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Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:36 am

Norwegian order 4 more 787-9 Dreamliners from ILFC

These will be leased

Delivery in 2017 - 2018

Norwegian is now up in 14 longhaul Aircraft in operation / orders


http://www.vg.no/reise/artikkel.php?artid=10122020

" Norwegian has signed an agreement to acquire four new Boeing 787-9 Dreamliners. This means that the company has ordered 14 wide-body aircraft in total; three of which are already in service. The 787-9 is larger than the 787-8 that Norwegian currently operates on its long-haul routes. "

http://media.norwegian.com/en/#/pres...-four-new-787-9-dreamliners-960737

[Edited 2014-02-12 22:37:54]
 
timpdx
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:40 am

wait, they hate them....but they love them?
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ukoverlander
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:57 am

Given that their 787 experience has been such a complete and utter shambles this is a curious development.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:06 am

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 2):
Given that their 787 experience has been such a complete and utter shambles this is a curious development.

The airline's senior management have noted that when the bloody things work, they're mighty darn efficient, so it the benefits must be worth the pain.
 
Caryjack
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:34 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
The airline's senior management have noted that when the bloody things work, they're mighty darn efficient, so it the benefits must be worth the pain.

For sure...but I also suspect some sort of compensatory pricing. Just not sure how you'd launder it through a leasing company.
Thanks,
Cary
 
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frigatebird
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:41 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 2):Given that their 787 experience has been such a complete and utter shambles this is a curious development.
The airline's senior management have noted that when the bloody things work, they're mighty darn efficient, so it the benefits must be worth the pain.

Well, by 2017 one would expect Boeing to have worked out the kinks that have been plagueing the 787 program.
However, reports that the first customer 787-9s need lots of rework after incomplete fuselage sections being shipped from Charleston, indicates that Boeing management seems to have serious trouble learning from their mistakes   
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David_itl
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:42 am

Nah, they've ordered more just to ensure that they can run their existing flying program without having to resort to leasing in other equipment when they breakdown.
 
okay
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:09 am

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 2):

I'd be more surprised if they changed the type, to let's say A350. They would in that case have to start from zero, in all respects almost. Better would be then to forget the whole long haul venture.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:57 am

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 5):
indicates that Boeing management seems to have serious trouble learning from their mistakes

If you take a look at profit and yield, their management is pretty good.

Ruscoe
 
LN-KGL
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:18 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 8):
If you take a look at profit and yield, their management is pretty good.

If you look at quarter to quarter profit maybe, but what happens years from now is more questionable. Boeing has exhausted all the goodwill one can expect from Dreamliner customers; the only thing left now is to deliver what's promissed or else ...
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:34 pm

Norwegian long haul had 216 million NOK in extra expenses due to the troubles with the Dreamliner (and other things) last year, but Bjørn Kjos remains an optimist; "If anyone can find any new Dreamliners on the market, send me a tip!"

Dagens Næringsliv newspaper:

http://www.dn.no/forsiden/naringsliv/article2765416.ece

[Edited 2014-02-13 04:38:42]
 
FlyingAY
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:12 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 5):
indicates that Boeing management seems to have serious trouble learning from their mistakes
Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 8):
If you take a look at profit and yield, their management is pretty good.

He never said that Boeing management would not be good. He said they have trouble learning from their mistakes. Do you honestly think the 787 program was managed well? If not, then I suppose it's reasonable to expect Boeing management to learn from the mistakes that were made, so they can improve and make even more profit.

Anyway, Norwegian has already indicated that they're happy with the 787 and if they want to expand, what else there is that could compete AND would make sense considering Norwegian's existing fleet? I expect that there were quite serious negotiations between Boeing and Norwegian and that the trouble DY had with their first 787s was factored into the pricing.

[Edited 2014-02-13 05:12:52]
 
bjorn14
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:15 pm

Kjøs said that when the Dreamliner works it far exceeded their performance expectations.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
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par13del
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:15 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
The airline's senior management have noted that when the bloody things work, they're mighty darn efficient, so it the benefits must be worth the pain.

Hmmmmm

Quoting okAY (Reply 7):
I'd be more surprised if they changed the type, to let's say A350.

So if one gets a lemon it is illogical to look elsewhere?

As a/c are large investments I am more interested in why they needed to make this commitment now versus waiting a year or so to see all the "kinks" worked out in their a/c and the new version going into service.
As an existing user and the "hell" they have been through, Boeing would / should be able to give them slots even if for additional -8's versus the -9's.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:24 pm

Quoting timpdx (Reply 1):
wait, they hate them....

Yes, and this order proves it ... had Norwegian liked the plane, they would have ordered ten, instead of four.   
 
wjcandee
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:10 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 5):
Boeing management seems to have serious trouble learning from their mistakes

Actually, not quite. They seemed finally to have their hands around Global Aeronautica, and the Charleston line. Then the idiots sent home a bunch of competent contract labor to save money. Then the problems started up again. Duh. It isn't that they haven't learned from their mistakes. It's that the beancounter mentality keeps causing them to make new mistakes.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:16 pm

Quoting timpdx (Reply 1):
wait, they hate them....but they love them?

They love the Aircrafts when they work ... Not so much Boeing's Gold care program
 
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PW100
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:16 pm

Quoting timpdx (Reply 1):
wait, they hate them....but they love them?

No, they don't hate the 787 . . . at all.

If at all, they're pretty pi**ed off at their maintenance (-management) provider, which happens to be Boeing through their ColdCare program. Apparently they are not delivering what was promised to them.

PW100
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travaz
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:28 pm

I would like to see the actual number of flights that were cancelled because of MX on the 787. I think that it has been over reported. I also wonder if the Airline has experience with long haul and associated problems. Some operators have had little problems with the 787. Not accusing just wondering .
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:40 pm

An older comparison of the fuel cost estimates. Since Jet-A is about $3/gallon again, the 2nd chart works (1st chart is at $2.50/gallon).
http://airinsight.com/2012/06/11/pri...s-in-airbus-vs-boeing-comparisons/

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 10):
"If anyone can find any new Dreamliners on the market, send me a tip!"

After receiving a discount.  
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 14):
Yes, and this order proves it ... had Norwegian liked the plane, they would have ordered ten, instead of four.

   Probably true. It still offers quite an efficiency improvement. I hope the latest software build improves things...


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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:29 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 2):
Given that their 787 experience has been such a complete and utter shambles this is a curious development.

They have no choice at this point. Adding a small sub fleet of say airbuses would kill efficiency and add so much work on so many levels. For an airline like Norwegian which is all about efficiency they have no choice but to keep the same. Lets be honest here an order of four is like a temporary bandaid to help them a little bit in the future. They might even long term want to see if the 787s become more reliable and less problematic before ordering more or later switch aircraft type but right now they gotta roll onward and keep the 787s.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:46 pm

I think the timing of this order has to do with them gaining more comfort with the economics of the aircraft and early indication of demand for their business model and finally confirmation a couple days ago that they would get the Ireland license that treats them as part of the EU and opens up Asian routes. Just one further hurdle in that they need the DOT to sign off and they should be good to go.

I for one am excited by this business plan. It will shake up the legacy guys on these TATL routes and hopefully it will improve availability.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 5):
However, reports that the first customer 787-9s need lots of rework after incomplete fuselage sections being shipped from Charleston, indicates that Boeing management seems to have serious trouble learning from their mistakes

I agree that it is frustrating to hear there are still problems but I think the mistake here was letting go the talented people too soon and not hiring them back quick enough when they began to have problems. I don't think you slow down production to deal with these problems because they are known entities that they can complete off to the side and testing should be sophisticated enough that nothing would get skipped or done incorrectly it will just cost more than it normally would. However, keeping production at 10/month should be maintained at nearly all cost in my opinion.

tortugamon
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:14 pm

Some time back, Norwegian CEO said that he considered a fleet of 25 longhaul Aircraft to be a good number ... They are starting to close in on that number ...  
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:45 pm

I don't think anyone should worry about the 787.

It is already successful, and despite it's problems, has had few cancellations. The economics of this aircraft are so enticing that airlines won't be put off by teething (prolonged teething)
problems.

One of reasons for the problems apart from bad management is that Boeing really pushed the boundaries with the 787, but they will reap the rewards for that in 10+ years time.

So Norwegian are very safe in their decision to take more Dreamliners.

The limiting factor for both the 787 and 350 will be the ability to produce them fast enough.

Ruscoe
 
flyingcello
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:15 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 23):
I don't think anyone should worry about the 787.

Agreed, The programme has been an abject lesson in how not to project manage...but...Boeing did a very brave thing in revolutionising both the aircraft and the production methods. And they have proven that both work, despite all the setbacks.

Now that the 787 is in real service, it seems to me that some airlines are fareing better than others, For example, BA seem to be having little or no issues. Are they better prepared? Did they build a deeper engineering knowledge? Or are their frames just better sorted because they are later builds...
 
DDR
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:29 am

Complain, complain, complain, and then order more. LOL
 
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Stitch
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:39 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 25):
Complain, complain, complain, and then order more. LOL

They have a legitimate reason to complain about the support they're paying for (GoldCare is not cheap).

But the 787 is a very efficient long-haul airframe and their long-haul service benefits from that efficiency and it helps that service to succeed and prosper so it is logical for them to order more.
 
davidho1985
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:51 am

Quoting flyingcello (Reply 24):
Now that the 787 is in real service, it seems to me that some airlines are fareing better than others, For example, BA seem to be having little or no issues. Are they better prepared? Did they build a deeper engineering knowledge? Or are their frames just better sorted because they are later builds...

Because BA; JL; NH keep many 787 as spare (exceptionally high), which small airlines (eg. Norwegian) can't afford.

When Jetstar recieved there first 3 787, only two flights per day were operated by 787,
which means that they have 2 787 as spare.
I remembered that someone has mentioned here BA's 787 usuage was very low,
not to mention JL and NH keep numbers of 787 as "hot spare" in Tokyo.
 
greaser
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:11 am

I'm not sure what the fuss is all about. The 787's fleet dispatch reliability is 98%.
Now you're really flying
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:48 am

Quoting greaser (Reply 28):
I'm not sure what the fuss is all about. The 787's fleet dispatch reliability is 98%

From what I have read, Norwegian's B787's has been down in around 75 - 78 % We also know that other airlines have had problems and has had to cancel flights too, so I don't know how Boeing can say it's 98 %
 
Robbie86
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:12 am

I really hope that DY will compete with SK on routes that's not all about leisure. Would love to see DY do ARN-HKG, ARN-NRT/HND and ARN-PVG to mention a few.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:30 pm

Quoting greaser (Reply 28):

I'm not sure what the fuss is all about. The 787's fleet dispatch reliability is 98%.

Bad enough for UA to complain at 777 EIS:
http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...rchive/?date=19960306&slug=2317518


99% is the minimum for an airframe.

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neutronstar73
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:56 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 5):
Well, by 2017 one would expect Boeing to have worked out the kinks that have been plagueing the 787 program.
However, reports that the first customer 787-9s need lots of rework after incomplete fuselage sections being shipped from Charleston, indicates that Boeing management seems to have serious trouble learning from their mistakes

Citation, please. I can't seem to find that bit of information anywhere on the net. Where'd you hear that from?
 
tortugamon
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:36 pm

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 32):
Citation, please. I can't seem to find that bit of information anywhere on the net. Where'd you hear that from?

Did you google 'Charleston' and '787'? I wouldn't call it 'rework' but yes, Charleston is behind and sending incomplete frames (especially 789s) to Everett.

tortugamon
 
RobertPhoenix
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:22 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 33):
I wouldn't call it 'rework'

I suppose you can't call it rework if the work was never done .....   
 
tortugamon
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:15 am

Quoting RobertPhoenix (Reply 34):

Precisely

tortugamon
 
Planesmart
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:41 am

Is the issue really Charleston per se, or the attitude of other Boeing sites receiving Charleston production, and wanting the new work environment there not to succeed?

Remember the problems A had with the first A300's operating in the USA, and there so-called unreliability. When A, Air France and Lufthansa senior engineers peer reviewed despatch decisions, they realised A & B fleets were not treated consistently.

So perhaps it's the other Boeing sites that need management and staff changes, not Charleston.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:56 pm

Quoting RobertPhoenix (Reply 34):
I suppose you can't call it rework if the work was never done .....

   Ok, it is 'traveling work' if one wants to be picky on the Jargon. Rework definitely has its own definition.

Quoting planesmart (Reply 36):

Is the issue really Charleston per se, or the attitude of other Boeing sites receiving Charleston production, and wanting the new work environment there not to succeed?

Both. Charleston is having issues. If they were a IAM site, we would hear less. But they are having issues with pace and quality.

QR is finding more issues with Charleston 787s. If you read this link, you will find evidence of traveling work. It has been noted that building 88-20 is where the work in question has the most issues:
http://nyc787.blogspot.com/2014/02/b...delivers-4-787-in-january-but.html

While QR is a picky customer, new aircraft should be nearly perfect. There is an issue at Charleston that is being made more of since they are not IAM.

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Mortyman
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:40 pm

Hey guys, this thread is not about the plant in Charleston, but about Norwegian acquiering adittional 787-9's. Please keep the thread on topic.
 
trex8
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RE: Norwegian Order 4 More 787-9 Dreamliners

Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:53 pm

Quoting planesmart (Reply 36):
Is the issue really Charleston per se, or the attitude of other Boeing sites receiving Charleston production, and wanting the new work environment there not to succeed?

When wiring cables are allegedly not connected and the ends still in ziplock bags though paperwork shows they are connected its a problem regardless if where it was done or by whom!

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