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niconet
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Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:06 am

Airbus has confirmed an order for four new A330-200 from Aerolineas Argentinas.
They'll arrive by 2015-2016 and will be used to enhance North American and European rutes where we might see a few destinations added in the near future.

Please see the following related link:
http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...s-places-order-for-four-a330-200s/

Congratulations AR... It's been 32 years since your last addition of a factory-new widebody airframe!!!

You must be doing something right  

Cheers.
Nico.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:22 am

Are they still keeping their four A340-200s active once these frames arrive?

If these new A330-200s are configured with a 242t MTOW, I would expect they could handle the A340-200's missions.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:44 am

Does AR still fly to SYD??? If so the A332's would be able to handle that mission.

KH
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
dcajet
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:46 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Are they still keeping their four A340-200s active once these frames arrive?

If these new A330-200s are configured with a 242t MTOW, I would expect they could handle the A340-200's missions.

While no official announcement has been made by AR regarding the future of the A342 in their fleet, some if not all of them are scheduled for a major overhaul in the coming 2 years, and word is that the airline will phase them out as they become due for the maintenance check. The expense is no longer justifiable for a plane that is no longer competitive.

I suppose another sign of their impending departure from AR is the cancellation of the EZE-SYD-EZE rotation, which was the only route for which the A342 was indispensable as no other type in AR's fleet can fly it non stop - and even so, the 200s make it with penalties on the westbound leg. BTW, the last flight leaves SYD on April 1st, and thus the airline that was the pioneer over the so-called "South Pole" route and made it commercially viable, closes a 34 year chapter of uniting South America with NZ and Australia with excellence and safety.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
CYCLOPZ
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:48 am

Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 2):

I'm not sure that AR could fly EZE-SYD due to ETOPS, nor EZE-AKL-SYD.
 
dcajet
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:52 am

Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 2):

Does AR still fly to SYD??? If so the A332's would be able to handle that mission.

The A332 does not have the legs nor the ETOPS credentials to fly non stop from EZE-SYD. At this time only 4-engined planes can fly from Australia to Argentina/Chile non stop, and even then, only certain ones, such as the A342, A345, A346 and 744ER - the one QF operates on the route. Occasionally you can see a non ER 744 substituting the ER ones - but they can only make it with significant payload restrictions.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
CYCLOPZ
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:37 am

AR *might* be able to make EZE-AKL but that's not including ETOPS. There would have to be significant payload restrictions.

If AR wants to continue EZE-AKL they would have to sub an A340 from somewhere else.
 
raggi
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:36 am

And how 'bout engines for these puppies, will AR stick to PW?
I'm sure they wouldn't mind some new orders.

raggi
Stick & Rudder
 
india1
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:12 am

@ raggi - no, it's GE they've gone with, as reported here: http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/ne...aviation-inks-deal-with-south.html
 
raggi
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:23 am

Quoting india1 (Reply 8):

Great, thanks a lot.
Engine commonality and -loyalty just aint no longer what it used to be!
Stick & Rudder
 
dcajet
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:00 pm

Quoting CYCLOPZ (Reply 6):

AR *might* be able to make EZE-AKL but that's not including ETOPS. There would have to be significant payload restrictions.

If AR wants to continue EZE-AKL they would have to sub an A340 from somewhere else.

AR has said that reinstating AKL is not planned. Shame, really, but AR needs to focus on its core markets (USA, LatAm, Spain & Italy). Having said that, there are plenty A340-300 in AR's fleet that can do an EZE-AKL with no restrictions. Doing an EZE-AKL with 2 engines is at the present stage of ETOPS not commercially viable - as demonstrated last year when NZ flew a series of charters to EZE from AKL in connection with some rugby tournament. The 773ER made it OK range wise but in order to keep them within their ETOPS qualifications they had to fly this route that added like 2 hours to the non ETOPS route.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
TC957
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:05 pm

So what became of the once much-hyped deal that AR was going to take the 4 QR A346's ?
They would have been ideal for the SYD & MAD routes.
 
kaitak
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:51 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 11):
So what became of the once much-hyped deal that AR was going to take the 4 QR A346's ?

I was wondering that myself; I believe QR is still intent on selling them; maybe there may be potential for this down the road; quite a few of those A340s are -200s and must be (a) time limited and (b) not equipped with the latest IFE, which AR would presumably want.

What is the range limit of a 332 from EZE with a full load; would it make it to MXP and FCO?

Quoting niconet (Thread starter):
They'll arrive by 2015-2016 and will be used to enhance North American and European rutes where we might see a few destinations added in the near future.

Could we see AR return to LHR?
 
bsbisland
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:40 pm

Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 2):
Does AR still fly to SYD??? If so the A332's would be able to handle that mission.

KH

They recently anounced they would axe SYD. Don't know if they have already stopped the flights.
 
dcajet
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:06 pm

With the cancellation of the Sydney route, AR finds itself with a new operational reality: moving forward, it no longer needs 4-engine planes. All of the routes in the airilne's network can be served by twins. Thus, AR has opted for the 330-200 for the immediate future, plus the 340-300/200. But I would not be surprised if Boeing offers AR the 777 - in any of the current or future incarnations. It is the ideal plane for Europe, while the Americas can be served by the 330 from Canada to Patagonia.

The IGW 330-200 can make EZE MAD/EZE BCN without a problem; not sure about FCO, as that is almost a 14 hour flight westbound. There AR needs the 340 or a 777.

London? I doubt it - at least in the near future. That said, LHR would be the next desired station in Europe, even before CDG, per the airline. But no concrete plans yet - and BA has a nice, solid product, daily to LHR from EZE, so it would be a bit suicidal right now for AR to embark in such an adventure.

The 342s are on their way out but no date has been announced by the airline; as they come up for major checks I expect them to be flown to the desert - I would say over the next 18 months.

Yes, AR and QR were negotiating for 4 346, but the deal fell thru. In any case, I don't expect AR to focus on any 4-engined planes moving forward as explained above.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
AR385
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:29 pm

Hey, dca, with everyone predicting an economic meltdown of the Argentine economy, do you know anything about how they are going to pay for the planes? As it is they have a serious issue of foreing currency reserves dwindling away. Wouldn´t financing come incredibly expensive given their sovereign rating? I was just thinking about that.
 
DexSwart
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:40 am

SA use their A332's to EZE and GRU. Could AR start South Africa again?

Edit: grammar.

[Edited 2014-02-15 16:41:19]
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:04 am

Quoting dcajet (Reply 3):
closes a 34 year chapter of uniting South America with NZ and Australia with excellence and safety.

Safety? Sure. Excellence? My god, no! Terrible service, atrocious reliability. Schedules were a nice-to-have.
 
SA7700
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:43 am

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 16):
SA use their A332's to EZE

Sorry but that is incorrect. They use the quads (A342/3/6) on the JNB-EZE-JNB route.

Regards,

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
airbazar
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:07 pm

Quoting dcajet (Reply 14):
But I would not be surprised if Boeing offers AR the 777 - in any of the current or future incarnations.

Really soon there will be no shortage of very cheap HGW A343's which is just as capable of an aircraft for deep long haul routes, and it shares commonality with the A332 fleet. Why AR would even think about a 777 when their entire long haul fleet is made up of A330/340 is beyond any reasonable logic.
 
trex8
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:50 pm

Are these the 242t variants like DL will get for their A333? Seems GE is on a roll here taking customers with A330s with other engine suppliers in the past. Very interested to know if these new engines are a totally new variant with higher thrust or just a pip.there was an report I saw somewhere that these new ge engines have a 1% improvement in fuel and less mx costs.
 
dcajet
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:19 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 19):
Really soon there will be no shortage of very cheap HGW A343's which is just as capable of an aircraft for deep long haul routes, and it shares commonality with the A332 fleet. Why AR would even think about a 777 when their entire long haul fleet is made up of A330/340 is beyond any reasonable logic.

I was not suggesting or advocating AR dropping the 340 for the 777. I just pointed out that Boeing may approach AR with an offer that may be hard to resist - as is it is my understanding that some conversations took place last year when AR ordered 20 738 from Boeing.

Now one thing you will not see AR adding more second hand 340s. While these planes provide reliable service to AR, the fact of the matter is that being all second hand, they are a festival of different equipment, especially in the passenger cabin. Thus, the onboard product and the customer experience are very disjointed to say the least and that is something AR wishes to leave behind. For instance, the four first 330-200 that just joined the fleet had their cabins overhauled to a common standard and uniform state of the art AVOD installed before delivery. Regrettably that has not been the case of the 340 fleet and it has been costing AR dearly in terms of premium revenue.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
gabo787
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:32 pm

Quoting niconet (Thread starter):
You must be doing something right

The only thing that AR does really good is live from the taxpayers money.
 
dcajet
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 17):
Safety? Sure. Excellence? My god, no! Terrible service, atrocious reliability. Schedules were a nice-to-have.

While you are correct that for a couple of years in the 2000s AR was literally a basket case, you may have to rethink your perception of AR's reliability - for the past five years and especially so in its domestic operations, AR has been achieving above industry standards levels of flight completion and on time arrivals/departures. The remarkable story here is that even during the years of Iberia administration and more so, Marsans in the 2000s, when resources were scarce and literally planes had to be cannibalized of parts so others could fly and maintain a semblance of scheduling - safety was never compromised. That is what I refer to by excellence. Service on board, well, no one ever said this was Singapore Airlines or the likes, but it is not horrible either.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
airbazar
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:40 pm

Quoting dcajet (Reply 21):
Now one thing you will not see AR adding more second hand 340s.

Don't be so sure. If they want to serve Europe beyond Spain, they don't really have a choice unless somehow, magically they find the money/financing to get A350/787. The A332 can't make it beyond MAD. It's as simple as that.
 
gabo787
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:57 pm

Quoting dcajet (Reply 23):
for the past five years and especially so in its domestic operations, AR has been achieving above industry standards levels of flight completion and on time arrivals/departures

AR flights are delayed frequently by strikes within the different areas in the company, they don't care about passengers stranded because of this, and their customer service is terrible I (I suffer it a couple of times this year). just Google it and you will see all the news about it.

They keep loosing money like crazy and only the taxpayers pockets keep them flying, I'm from Argentina and I use to love AR but now a days is just a political price and a money sink hole...
 
raggi
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:30 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 20):
Are these the 242t variants like DL will get for their A333? Seems GE is on a roll here taking customers with A330s with other engine suppliers in the past.

Dunno what the variants for AR will be, but I see your point, and to the list of DL and AR you can add TK which went for GE for their latest batch of 333s, although to be fair their 332s were already GE.
Stick & Rudder
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:57 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 11):
So what became of the once much-hyped deal that AR was going to take the 4 QR A346's ?

Apparently, it was a rumor only.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
raggi
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:25 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 27):
Apparently, it was a rumor only.

Wait, what!? Rumors here on a.net? Surely you're joking!  
Stick & Rudder
 
brunomelo
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:25 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 18):

I thought JNB-GRU-JBN was also flown with quads, but i was in GRU on the 8th of this month, and saw SAA 332 landing. Was is a one time only or it became regular?
Be safe,
Bruno.
 
SA7700
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:46 pm

Quoting brunomelo (Reply 29):
Was is a one time only or it became regular?

It seems as if SA222/223 is operated by the A332 whilst SA224/225 is still on the quads. But to answer your question, SA's A332's on JNB-GRU-JNB is now a regular occurence.


Regards,

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
BSRadar
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:01 pm

Seriously, why the debate over engine choice at the head of this thread? Does anybody really think that RR was in with a sniff of the order? The harridan i/c the silver country would have had prairie oysters from the guys who ever thought of the idea.
 
brunomelo
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:25 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 30):

Thanks mate!
Wish you all have a nice week.
Bruno.
 
PDPsol
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:25 am

Quoting BSRadar (Reply 31):
Does anybody really think that RR was in with a sniff of the order? The harridan i/c the silver country would have had prairie oysters from the guys who ever thought of the idea.

Unsure what this means, but are you suggesting AR would reject Rolls Trent as an alternative due their British origin? Certainly possible, but would hope AR management refrains from silly xenophobic fear of all things 'de los ingleses'...

Then again, the political meddling in AR and the country's aviation sector has been uniformly horrible since the K's began running the show eleven years ago.
 
airbazar
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:01 pm

Quoting brunomelo (Reply 29):
I thought JNB-GRU-JBN was also flown with quads, but i was in GRU on the 8th of this month, and saw SAA 332 landing. Was is a one time only or it became regular?

JNB-GRU is operated with an A332. It takes a very small detour north of about 100 miles to stay within ETOPS180.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/S...2/history/20140215/0830Z/FAOR/SBGR
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:27 pm

The first two aircraft have been allocated already: MSN 1605 (due January 2015) and MSN 1626 (due June 2015).
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:55 am

Quoting india1 (Reply 8):
@ raggi - no, it's GE they've gone with, as reported here:

Also confirmed by GE themselves:

http://www.geaviation.com/press/cf6/cf6_20140213.html
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
MD11junkie
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:07 pm

Quoting gabo787 (Reply 25):
AR flights are delayed frequently by strikes within the different areas in the company, they don't care about passengers stranded because of this, and their customer service is terrible I (I suffer it a couple of times this year). just Google it and you will see all the news about it.

You are living a past reality - that was actually something that happened with the Marsans administration. While International ops tend to be hectic due to tightly scheduled A340s turnaround, one delay will cascade in a fall out of the whole network, you can't say that AR flights are delayed "by strikes". That simply just isn't true.

While it is true that the company is not performing financially, it has cut back on the red ink - 20 years of mismanagement are not solved overnight. I do think that the company has taken misteps in the past (during the State administration), but they are correcting them.

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 30):
It seems as if SA222/223 is operated by the A332 whilst SA224/225 is still on the quads. But to answer your question, SA's A332's on JNB-GRU-JNB is now a regular occurence.


Regards,

SA7700

SA224/225 is only on quads due to aircraft rotation. Whilst ZS-SNE is out of the fleet for a couple of weeks, SA222/223 and SA224/225 will see the all longhaul aircraft in SAA's except the A340-200. SA222/223 until May, I believe, will have a 30-min detour. After that, I believe the ETOPS-240 rating will come into effect. With ETOPS-240, SA226/227 could continue (I'm not saying that it will)

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 33):
Unsure what this means, but are you suggesting AR would reject Rolls Trent as an alternative due their British origin? Certainly possible, but would hope AR management refrains from silly xenophobic fear of all things 'de los ingleses'...

No? I'm sorry PDPsol, you can do much better than this - this type of generalisation I did not expect from you. The Malvinas conflict will do nothing of the sort to any order. RR Trents are expensive as hell to maintain, as RR tends to "smuther" the carriers with their maintenance program. RR's Total Care is the reason why the A340-600 QR deal fell.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 24):

Not even the HGW versions? The problem lies, not from EZE but from MAD. MAD is hot and high and in winter the winds tend to be a bit tricky. UX operates an A330-200 daily to EZE from MAD.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 27):

Apparently, it was a rumor only.

Those were the ex-SQ A345. The A346's intention was real.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 17):
Safety? Sure. Excellence? My god, no! Terrible service, atrocious reliability. Schedules were a nice-to-have.

How many times have you flown the route and in what years? I think I know the answer.

Saludos.
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
PDPsol
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:40 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 37):
No? I'm sorry PDPsol, you can do much better than this - this type of generalisation I did not expect from you. The Malvinas conflict will do nothing of the sort to any order. RR Trents are expensive as hell to maintain, as RR tends to "smuther" the carriers with their maintenance program. RR's Total Care is the reason why the A340-600 QR deal fell.

Sorry to hear you are disappointed, but I was asking an actual question: "did silly politics play any role in this AR order"?

AR and politics go hand-in-hand, unfortunately. if AR reached their decision applying operational, commercial and economic criteria, then wonderful. If the RR Trent is more expensive, not viable, then I am sure AR has made a good decision.
 
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EPA001
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:46 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 36):
Also confirmed by GE themselves:

Even if it is a small order, congrats to Airbus and GE are in place.  
 
airbazar
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Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Aerolineas Argentinas Orders Four Airbus A332

Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:53 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 37):
Not even the HGW versions? The problem lies, not from EZE but from MAD. MAD is hot and high and in winter the winds tend to be a bit tricky. UX operates an A330-200 daily to EZE from MAD.

Per Airbus, the new 242T A332 gets a range increase of only 350nm.
http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/pr...ability-to-extend-market-coverage/

As I understand it the UX MAD-EZE often has to make a refueling stop but they have a very dense configuration. AR's should be able to make it non-stop with lower density config. There's a reason why they've held on to the A342's this long and it's because the current A332 can't reliably fly non-stop between EZE and MAD/BCN. So I still think that while the latest A332's will be able to replace the A342's on the MAD and BCN routes, it will still not have the range to fly to LHR/CDG/FRA/FCO.

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