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dlramp4life
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DTW DGS Layoffs

Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:46 pm

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...140214/BIZ/302140103#ixzz2tLJpAD5C

I love how the article makes it sound like DL is doing the layoffs when it is DGS.

I am very confused by this... Why would Delta kick their own DGS to the curb in a hub?
 
aviationwiz
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:49 pm

It very much is DL doing the layoffs - they're re-outsourcing the outsourced workers. DGS may technically be the employer, but it's DL that provides the work that needs to be done.
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dmt52
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:15 pm

Delta announced all current employes will be rehired by the new suppliers.
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...-Airport-current-employees-rehired
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Dtw757
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:39 pm

Quoting dmt52 (Reply 2):
Delta announced all current employes will be rehired by the new suppliers

Right probably at even lower pay and zero flight benefits
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
AA737-823
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:50 pm

Quoting dtw757 (Reply 3):
Right probably at even lower pay and zero flight benefits

Well, that's the nature of ground services these days. I lost my job six years ago to a company that bid below cost. And those guys have all lost their jobs since then, because their employer went bust.
All of these things are simply "race to the bottom" strategies. Delta is within their right to hire the cheapest bidder; it's business.

Mind you, Alaska did this in Seattle YEARS ago, outsourcing to Menzies.
If we don't like it, we should pay more to fly, so that decent professionals can make decent livings. Nevermind, the airlines would still make the cuts.
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:57 pm

Quoting dtw757 (Reply 3):
zero flight benefits

Should the janitors and the security workers also get flight benefits? How about the TSA folks, skycaps, and the food court workers? Should EVERY airport worker get flight benefits???

I have an idea...how about JUST AIRLINE EMPLOYEES????
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
jetmatt777
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:13 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 5):
I have an idea...how about JUST AIRLINE EMPLOYEES????

How about airline employees actually work their companies flights. I'm sick of this outsourcing. I'm sick of these bottom feeder contract companies and their scab employees doing these jobs for minimum wage, putting enormous pressure on us mainline agents.
 
Dtw757
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:24 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 5):
I have an idea...how about JUST AIRLINE EMPLOYEES????

Many of these people WERE AIRLINE EMPLOYEES! Many were Mesaba which turned Regional Elite turned Delta Global Services now turning to a non airline owned company! Bye bye benefits!
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
rwy04lga
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:26 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 6):
How about airline employees actually work their companies flights. I'm sick of this outsourcing. I'm sick of these bottom feeder contract companies and their scab employees doing these jobs for minimum wage, putting enormous pressure on us mainline agents.

Scabs? For what reason?
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
jetmatt777
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:44 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 8):
Scabs? For what reason?

Undercutting a mainline job is considered a scab to me.
 
TPA0822
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:01 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 9):
Undercutting a mainline job is considered a scab to me.

For the record, a scab is a strikebreaker, and as far as I can tell from this thread, there's no strike.
 
jetmatt777
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:13 am

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 10):

You are correct. I will stick with bottom feeder contractors.  
 
aviationwiz
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:22 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 6):
I'm sick of these bottom feeder contract companies and their scab employees doing these jobs for minimum wage, putting enormous pressure on us mainline agents.

This is all the mainline carriers doing - they could have just as easily brought the former XJ/RE/DGS workers in to the mainline fold, but didn't. Why? Because it's cheaper. These price savings then go in to profit sharing bonuses that are then given out to mainline employees only.
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DLX737200
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:11 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 5):

Should the janitors and the security workers also get flight benefits? How about the TSA folks, skycaps, and the food court workers? Should EVERY airport worker get flight benefits???

I have an idea...how about JUST AIRLINE EMPLOYEES????
Quoting dtw757 (Reply 7):
Many of these people WERE AIRLINE EMPLOYEES!

Thanks dtw757! I screamed the same thing when I read rwy04lga's high and mighty post! As a former OH and then REAS employee, I concur! These folks were airline employees who made semi reasonable wages at one point. Then big momma D figured they could save a few more bucks by finding even cheaper contractors and now if these people want to feed their families and keep the power on at home, they either start over at the new company or leave the job all together.

rwy04lga, You make it well known on this forum that you're proud to be a Delta mainline employee. And you have every right to be that. But you shouldn't be dogging the hard workers that keep Delta's labor costs low so you can get a hefty profit sharing check, reasonable wage and good benefits while those people who are just as important to the operation of Delta get terrible pay, terrible benefits (if any!) and NO profit sharing. You should be ashamed at yourself...


Lastly, I love this:

Quote:

“Our expectation is that as this transition is happening, the new providers will look to the old workforce,” Durrant said. “We expect the incoming vendors to look to the existing workforce and utilize that institutional knowledge and skill.”
.

Yeah, but of course the new company will give no monetary incentive for that knowledge and skill! These underbidding contractors take advantage of several hard working, skilled customer service agents who need a job and often have nowhere else to go in a tough economy.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 6):
How about airline employees actually work their companies flights. I'm sick of this outsourcing. I'm sick of these bottom feeder contract companies and their scab employees doing these jobs for minimum wage, putting enormous pressure on us mainline agents.

To be fair, I think Menzies might actually pay more than DGS...
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
tyler81190
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:01 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 5):
I have an idea...how about JUST AIRLINE EMPLOYEES????

Technically DGS is a subsidiary of DL. Just like OH was...
 
ouboy79
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:59 am

DLX to you point...I can appreciate being proud of who I work for, but I'm not going to forget EVERYONE that is involved with that operation. The guys and gals on the ramp throwing bags and moving aircraft are crucial to the operating of the airline. Let's be honest though, everyone is replaceable. The res agent, the counter agent, the ramper, the mechanic, and heck...the pilots and flight crews. When I non-rev I thank everyone I see and send in a positive note to the company to thank them for what they do. If we stop and appreciate each other more, things would be much better. Unfortunately some are easily susceptible to the dive and conquer mentality and quickly move to throw anyone else under the bus as long as they aren't touched.
 
OB1504
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:14 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 6):
How about airline employees actually work their companies flights. I'm sick of this outsourcing. I'm sick of these bottom feeder contract companies and their scab employees doing these jobs for minimum wage, putting enormous pressure on us mainline agents.

   I support less outsourcing, but I would like to point out that my employer starts their agents at $3 to $4 more than most airlines are paying here. I've interviewed with airlines, but financially, it doesn't make sense to take a pay cut for the same work. It's not minimum wage and I am not a scab. Pick up a dictionary if you get the chance.
 
ouboy79
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:30 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 17):
I support less outsourcing, but I would like to point out that my employer starts their agents at $3 to $4 more than most airlines are paying here. I've interviewed with airlines, but financially, it doesn't make sense to take a pay cut for the same work. It's not minimum wage and I am not a scab. Pick up a dictionary if you get the chance.

What is your benefits package like? Low deductible health care? 401k? Profit sharing? Unlimited free flights for yourself and immediate family? Paid vacation? Paid sick leave?

Compensation is more than just an hourly wage.
 
TW870
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:32 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 5):
skycaps, and the food court workers? Should EVERY airport worker get flight benefits???

I have an idea...how about JUST AIRLINE EMPLOYEES????

Remember, Skycaps used to be airline employees at many carriers, as were catering workers. I started as a United flight attendant not long after United closed the flight kitchens, contracted out to Dobbs/Gate Gourmet, and also not long after they outsourced the skycaps. If management got more aggressive, they could contract out all customer service, and they could contract out all flight attendant and pilot positions, making the brand a mere vehicle to sell tickets and arrange subcontractors. So unless people fight back against the race to the bottom, there is really no such a thing as being an "AIRLINE EMPLOYEE". When I flew for United, everyone was a United employee at stations like Medford, Oregon or Dayton, Ohio. Now no mainline customer service, ramp, pilot, or flight attendant positions serve those stations.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:31 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 6):
I'm sick of this outsourcing. I'm sick of these bottom feeder contract companies and their scab employees doing these jobs for minimum wage, putting enormous pressure on us mainline agents.

Assuming you don't work for WN, isn't this sort of a hypocritical position? The fact that folks choose to work for carriers that outsource enables that outsourcing, no? (And yes, I know WN outsources a bit, but it's orders of magnitude less than other majors.)
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sgtusmc96
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:44 pm

First off DGS is the company coming into DTW. They will replace the current company Prospect. There have been numerous problems with prospect going all the way back to NWA days. So Prospect goes away and DGS comes fully on to the property and takes over all prospect duties.
 
ouboy79
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:00 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):
Assuming you don't work for WN, isn't this sort of a hypocritical position? The fact that folks choose to work for carriers that outsource enables that outsourcing, no?

Not sure I completely understand the point you are trying to make, but what about people that picked their jobs before the outsourcing epidemic went widespread? I was offered to work for AA 15 years ago before ground outsourcing went wild. Would I be at fault for being against outsourcing that was taking my job away, even though it wasn't going back then to the degree it is now?

I have friends that have been with these airlines for 10-20 years now that are facing losing their job because of ground crew outsourcing. They chose to work for carriers before the outsourcing went crazy. How are they enabling it?
 
crj200faguy
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:18 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 6):
I'm sick of these bottom feeder contract companies and their scab employees doing these jobs for minimum wage, putting enormous pressure on us mainline agents.

Typically, it takes less of them to get a flight out than you mainline agents. They work harder, complain less and actually do their jobs. I remember the week NWA filed for BK. PIT was absolutely nasty to us regional people until that week. Then suddenly they were our best friend. Everyone in this industry is replaceable. You best remember that. I remember that everyday I go to work.
 
777ord
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:28 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 5):

Should the janitors and the security workers also get flight benefits? How about the TSA folks, skycaps, and the food court workers? Should EVERY airport worker get flight benefits???

I have an idea...how about JUST AIRLINE EMPLOYEES????

-AGREED! I get really tired of walking around my airport while at work and having TSA and various vendors asking for discounts. I'm sorry, I don't recall you giving me a discount on my lunch and you don't work for me.. You work for XXX restaurant who works at the airport".

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 6):
How about airline employees actually work their companies flights. I'm sick of this outsourcing. I'm sick of these bottom feeder contract companies and their scab employees doing these jobs for minimum wage, putting enormous pressure on us mainline agents.

I would like to see airlines have their own services, but until passengers pay what travel is worth and recognize that air travel is not a right, but a luxury. Just as a car or a cruise etc... It'll continue. Sadly the customer wants rock bottom prices and demands the filet mignon. You can't have both. You don't go to Ruth Chris (a very high end US Steak House) and demand the Filet and want to pay Applebee's prices.
 
tyler81190
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:25 pm

Quoting 777ord (Reply 24):
I would like to see airlines have their own services, but until passengers pay what travel is worth and recognize that air travel is not a right, but a luxury. Just as a car or a cruise etc... It'll continue. Sadly the customer wants rock bottom prices and demands the filet mignon. You can't have both. You don't go to Ruth Chris (a very high end US Steak House) and demand the Filet and want to pay Applebee's prices.

I think in the next few years, fares will go up. But I think ramp employees will still be more expendable than any other work group. I say that being a former ramp employee. The company wan't to save face with the customer, so the customer facing employees will take longer to outsource, but the ramp I think will always be the first to go.

As for pilots, and FAs, I think that IF it happens, it will be MANY years from now. I seriously doubt this will happen. How uncomfortable would passengers be if they found out that their pilot didn't actually work for an airline?
 
dlramp4life
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:09 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 5):
I have an idea...how about JUST AIRLINE EMPLOYEES????

Or the people that work the airline's flights. When I worked at a ground service company we had flight benefits and also were unionized. Look you got to throw them a bone for working there.

Quoting sgtusmc96 (Reply 21):
First off DGS is the company coming into DTW. They will replace the current company Prospect. There have been numerous problems with prospect going all the way back to NWA days. So Prospect goes away and DGS comes fully on to the property and takes over all prospect duties

So DGS is taking over mainline a/c cleaning and skycaps?
 
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mayor
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:59 pm

Quoting sgtusmc96 (Reply 21):
First off DGS is the company coming into DTW. They will replace the current company Prospect. There have been numerous problems with prospect going all the way back to NWA days. So Prospect goes away and DGS comes fully on to the property and takes over all prospect duties.

So, is the article wrong because it says DGS will be making the cuts and will be replaced by Prospect (cabin cleaning) and Menzies for baggage handling and ramp?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Maverick623
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:11 am

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 23):
Everyone in this industry is replaceable.

I vote we start with the executives that make millions while in bankruptcy, and then afterwards lay people off because the "profit margins aren't high enough" while taking in millions more in bonuses and stock options.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
jetmatt777
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:24 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):
Assuming you don't work for WN, isn't this sort of a hypocritical position? The fact that folks choose to work for carriers that outsource enables that outsourcing, no? (And yes, I know WN outsources a bit, but it's orders of magnitude less than other majors.)

Blame the victim?? How am I at fault for seeking out, and then accepting a job with the main carrier?

The people who are enabling this craze of outsourcing are those people willing to work the ramp for minimum wage with very little/if any benefits. The people willing to work for these bottom feeder companies are the enablers, those of us who actually work for the airline are the victim.
 
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mayor
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:31 am

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 23):
Typically, it takes less of them to get a flight out than you mainline agents. They work harder, complain less and actually do their jobs.

Gettin' a little deep in here, don't you think? In SLC, I always saw SkyWest use the same amount of ramp agents to work an RJ as DL used for a 727 or 757. On top of that, every morning, DL agents would have to help OO agents sort thru connecting bags off of the OO flights. Seems if they work harder they wouldn't need DL's help.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
aviationwiz
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:57 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 29):
The people willing to work for these bottom feeder companies are the enablers, those of us who actually work for the airline are the victim.

So let me get this straight? You believe that you, the mainline employee with the (better) pay, benefits, profit sharing bonus, etc. are the victim? With all due respect, that's insane, so I do hope I misunderstood your statement.

I would say, if anything, those forced to work for these "bottom feeder companies" (many of which are wholly owned subsidiaries of mainline carriers), are the victims - they do the same job as you, for less pay, benefits, and overall compensation. Unless you just want these people to be unemployed and either wither away and die or survive off welfare.

Once again - it's your employer, the mainline carrier, calling all the shots regarding outsourcing what used to be airline jobs to contractors. Don't blame the average hardworking American for decisions made at the executive level.
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rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:56 am

Quoting DLX737200 (Reply 13):
You should be ashamed at yourself.

Perhaps you think I should be, but I'm not. Not one iota!

Also, I'm not full time....I get no benefits, save for flight benefits - which is all I want. As long as I do the minimum 300 hours/year, I'm set.

I applied directly to Delta for a job, not some 'subsidiary'. If they want flight benefits, they can apply directly to Delta too.

If those people have concerns about 'feeding their families and keeping the power on', they should be more concerned about a better paying job and less concerned about flight benefits.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
DLX737200
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:57 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 32):
I applied directly to Delta for a job, not some 'subsidiary'. If they want flight benefits, they can apply directly to Delta too.

You are the living example that getting a full time job with Delta is difficult if not impossible. Many of these people would LOVE to get on with mainline but have to choose either a ready reserve position with delta that won't pay the bills or a full time position with a subsidiary or contractor that gives them 40 hours of pay. Delta doesn't hire full timers off the street anymore.

If Delta had half a brain they would recruit new hires from the contractors. I know tons of hardworking DGS, Skywest and other contractors that know more about Delta customer service, Delta computers and working a flight than many mainline agents, all for less pay and worse benefits. When I was a Regional Elite employee, in one 8 hour shift I would go from selling, reissuing or rebooking tickets at the counter to working an oversold MD88 at the gate (by myself and I would have to take out the garbage on the plane and clean up first class all by myself all in a 40 min turn) to the evening working baggage service for RONs. The next day I'd come back in and work the ramp as an ALA doing ALIS for our flights, coding delays and closing out flights. I'd then clean the planes at night and probably help in BSO again. When I left that God forsaken job I was making $10.20 an hour with S3C flight benefits. People today are doing that same job today with S4 benefits on everyone but mainline, no buddy passes, no profit sharing, expensive health insurance and topping out at $10 an hour with DGS. And you're not ashamed of yourself. I guarantee you have never worked as hard as these contractors have
 
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mayor
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:33 pm

Quoting DLX737200 (Reply 33):
If Delta had half a brain they would recruit new hires from the contractors. I know tons of hardworking DGS, Skywest and other contractors that know more about Delta customer service, Delta computers and working a flight than many mainline agents, all for less pay and worse benefits. When I was a Regional Elite employee, in one 8 hour shift I would go from selling, reissuing or rebooking tickets at the counter to working an oversold MD88 at the gate (by myself and I would have to take out the garbage on the plane and clean up first class all by myself all in a 40 min turn) to the evening working baggage service for RONs. The next day I'd come back in and work the ramp as an ALA doing ALIS for our flights, coding delays and closing out flights. I'd then clean the planes at night and probably help in BSO again. When I left that God forsaken job I was making $10.20 an hour with S3C flight benefits. People today are doing that same job today with S4 benefits on everyone but mainline, no buddy passes, no profit sharing, expensive health insurance and topping out at $10 an hour with DGS. And you're not ashamed of yourself. I guarantee you have never worked as hard as these contractors have

Sounds like how the mainline agents used to work at SLC, before the WA merger......we only had 5-6 flights a day, so we cleaned planes, worked on GSE, worked cargo, etc. So, I don't think you can say that mainline doesn't work as hard as ready reserve or the contractors. I know for a fact that it's at least equal.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
m11stephen
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:36 pm

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 25):
As for pilots, and FAs, I think that IF it happens, it will be MANY years from now. I seriously doubt this will happen. How uncomfortable would passengers be if they found out that their pilot didn't actually work for an airline?

Um this has been happening for years... Ever heard of the regional airline industry?
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:21 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 35):
Um this has been happening for years... Ever heard of the regional airline industry?

That's like saying that "Joe Schmo Partners, INC., DBA McDonald's" is not a fast food restaurant. Until someone points out the legal difference to you, you don't care who/what operated the restaurant, but in the end, it's still a fast food restaurant.

[Edited 2014-02-17 09:25:07]
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nkops
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:30 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 29):
The people willing to work for these bottom feeder companies are the enablers

I'm sorry, but your execs who decide to outsource are the enablers.

Quoting aviationwiz (Reply 31):
Don't blame the average hardworking American for decisions made at the executive level.

Very well said
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
DLX737200
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RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:37 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 34):

Sounds like how the mainline agents used to work at SLC, before the WA merger......we only had 5-6 flights a day, so we cleaned planes, worked on GSE, worked cargo, etc. So, I don't think you can say that mainline doesn't work as hard as ready reserve or the contractors. I know for a fact that it's at least equal.

It MAY be that contractors today work as hard an mainline agents ONCE WORKED in the past but I cannot believe that it is equal today. I have worked alongside mainline agents (as the subsidiary or contract employee) in MCO, CVG and seen how mainline agents work in LGA, ATL and IND firsthand and I know they do not compare.

Mainline, and understandably in some stations, does not train their employees to be fluent in all areas of the operation. Of course, with mainline, above wing and below wing are kept completely separate (Dept 120 vs. 125, right?) and I think the 4 hours rule where mainline agents could be above and below in the same day died with NW, right?

But with the contractors, it is still possible to do it all, in one day. I challenge anyone to name (figuratively) a mainline agent that has the skills to work the ramp, be ALA weight and balanced train on mainline flights, sell a ticket, board a flight, take lost luggage claims and code delays AND makes less than $15 an hour. I and several of my colleagues at the contractors did all of this for Delta and none of us made more than $12 an hour. Delta really got a great deal with us! Glad I'm not getting taken advantage of anymore.

I remember when Regional Elite (the former OH folks) were cut from CVG. They were surprised they were cut over mainline (despite the large number of regional flights left and the few number of mainline flights) because they could work their gates, ramp, catering, even fueled their own flights while with mainline doing the work, all mainline did was gate, counter, BSO and ramp. They had to hire more catering and fueling contractors to handle all of the RJ flights now. Not to mention, the REAS employees were making much less than the mainline folks.

Listen, I fully support a 100% mainline operation in all stations at all airlines because I believe that employees that are treated well by their company and have a vested interest in the operation care more about the performance of the airline and the quality of the customer service their customers receive. I also like to see all airline customer service agents receive fair and reasonable compensation for the very difficult job they do. But, as many have mentioned, until passengers start paying what their travel is worth and airline executives stop being so greedy with outsourcing synergies, it's not going to happen. In fact, I believe that in a few more years airlines in the US will look like the rest of the world where the only mainline employees will be the pilots and flight attendants. Because, as has been said many time, customer service positions are replaceable.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4115
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:24 am

Quoting nkops (Reply 37):
I'm sorry, but your execs who decide to outsource are the enablers.

Aren't people willing to work for crap wages and benefits also to blame though? If people started saying no and require better pay - things would be different. Except there will always be someone who will work for less out there, regardless if it means they are losing money (personally) by having that job. It's pretty ridiculous that today I can hire people to work in a call center and pay them the exact same hourly rate I paid my guys 10 years ago when I owned one. Cost of living and inflation increases would be requiring at least a couple bucks more per hour for them. People need to start valuing themselves and their time more. They are leaving money on the table that they should be making.
 
TUSAA
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:20 am

RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:09 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 39):
Aren't people willing to work for crap wages and benefits also to blame though? If people started saying no and require better pay - things would be different. Except there will always be someone who will work for less out there, regardless if it means they are losing money (personally) by having that job. It's pretty ridiculous that today I can hire people to work in a call center and pay them the exact same hourly rate I paid my guys 10 years ago when I owned one. Cost of living and inflation increases would be requiring at least a couple bucks more per hour for them. People need to start valuing themselves and their time more. They are leaving money on the table that they should be making.

From what I've seen at DFW and a few other major airports, most of the airline/mainline jobs that have been outsourced have gone to mostly foreigners. Most of the folks doing the aircraft cleaning and baggage service/wheelchair..etc jobs are from Somalia, Kenya and Nigeria...at least at DFW. What does $7hr mean to them? Are they just so happy to be in the USA and will work for anything? $7-$8hr is probably a lot of money to them. I read a while back they had issues at DFW due to as many as 8-10 of these folks shared a apartment but only one of them had a drivers license and one car, so if the one with the license was sick or didn't go to work the other 9 didn't show up either. As long as these folks are taking these jobs, I don't see the outsourcing going away.
 
realsim
Posts: 520
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:19 pm

RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:59 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 23):
Everyone in this industry is replaceable.

I vote we start with the executives that make millions while in bankruptcy, and then afterwards lay people off because the "profit margins aren't high enough" while taking in millions more in bonuses and stock options.

  

Quoting aviationwiz (Reply 31):
Don't blame the average hardworking American for decisions made at the executive level.

  

Quoting nkops (Reply 37):
I'm sorry, but your execs who decide to outsource are the enablers.

  

Everyone would want to work with better conditions, but no one can judge people who decide to work even if the conditions are not what they should be, because many times, more than an own decision, it's a need.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4338
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:45 am

Quoting aviationwiz (Reply 31):
So let me get this straight? You believe that you, the mainline employee with the (better) pay, benefits, profit sharing bonus, etc. are the victim? With all due respect, that's insane, so I do hope I misunderstood your statement.

I would say, if anything, those forced to work for these "bottom feeder companies" (many of which are wholly owned subsidiaries of mainline carriers), are the victims - they do the same job as you, for less pay, benefits, and overall compensation. Unless you just want these people to be unemployed and either wither away and die or survive off welfare.

Once again - it's your employer, the mainline carrier, calling all the shots regarding outsourcing what used to be airline jobs to contractors. Don't blame the average hardworking American for decisions made at the executive level.

Yes I agree, they make the call, (just as will very soon happen to my job at my station) however it doesn't change the fact that the mainline agents are the victim. But if there weren't tens of thousands of people willing to work the ramp and the crappy conditions you can routinely work in, and the lifelong damage it can inflict on your body, for cheap undercutting wages, these companies wouldn't have employees. These companies would not be able to financially undercut the own airline.

That's how airlines decide to outsource. They look at the total payroll and benefit cost of a station. And then they see how much a contract company would charge to do the same work. When the contract company has a pool of employees who will work for $8 an hour and very little benefits, they can severely undercut the airline in the cost to keep a station open.

It boils down to people willing to work for such companies which enable the companies to bid on work and steal mainline jobs.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14629
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:57 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 42):
It boils down to people willing to work for such companies which enable the companies to bid
on work and steal mainline jobs.

Hang on, "steal" mainline jobs? Why are mainline employees entitled to these jobs?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4338
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:02 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 43):

I guess you are also okay with the outsourcing of American jobs to other countries?

Is it wrong also for Americans to not want their jobs to be outsourced overseas for the lowest wage possible?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14629
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:16 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 44):
I guess you are also okay with the outsourcing of American jobs to other countries?

Why would that necessarily follow?

We all agree (I think) that it's okay for contractor employees to work Delta airplanes in, for instance, JNB, or SCL. And while some might say it's a closer call, I think we also agree that it's okay for contractor employees to work Delta airplanes in small stations like JAC or majority Connection stations like CRW or ROA. If that's all true, why is it necessarily inappropriate for contractor employees to work Delta airplanes anywhere?

One retort might be that mainline employees will do a better job. But in my book, that's earning the job, not deserving the job.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4338
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:37 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 45):

The airline includes the lower quality work in the estimate.

If outsourcing a city saves $1 million a year, and the lower quality increases complaint and mishandled baggage resolution costs by $250,000 a year, the company is still saving money.

The bidding prices these companies are bidding just to have a handling contract makes it impossible for mainline employees to compete.
 
mtnwest1979
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:49 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 34):
Sounds like how the mainline agents used to work at SLC, before the WA merger......we only had 5-6 f

...and that was early 1987. Things have changed a tad in the last 27 years.
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4338
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:53 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 45):

I am not saying it would follow, I'm stating since you approve of outsourcing of jobs to the lowest bidder, you are also completely okay with outsourcing of other jobs in many industries that have moved out of the country?

If it's all about the lowest price, the two aren't exclusive of each other.
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: DTW DGS Layoffs

Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:05 am

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 47):
...and that was early 1987. Things have changed a tad in the last 27 years.

Oh, I agree.....but then I hear blanket statements made that imply that contractors work harder than mainline and it makes me cringe. Even after the WA merger, DL decided to contract out most of the freight operation at SLC and they were sorry for doing it. We were still doing the office work and freight acceptance, but the contractors were doing most of the rest. We had vehicles trashed, freight stolen and regardless what the contractors told us, shipments were NOT riding on the a/c that they were supposed to. We finally convinced management to bring it all back, mainline and they did. It remained that way until after I retired and I'm afraid they're making the same mistake, again.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen

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