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Mortyman
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SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:27 pm

SK teams up with LH in the fight against Norwegian's long haul operations

In an article in Norwegian media With the title:

" Proof that SAS wants to destroy Norwegian's ambitions"

Online newspaper NA24 documents that arch-rival SAS is working hard to prevent that Norwegian should be allowed to fly to the U.S., as they do today.


Influencing policymakers

Together with German Lufthansa, the company engages in active lobbying. The aim is that the U.S. government wont allow Norwegian to continue With operations in the US.


SAS top Hans Ollongren and Lufthansa's North America top Arthur J. Mollin, together submitted a document to the FAA.

In the aforementioned letter, SAS and Lufthansa come with multiple charges of Norwegian's motivation to establish themselves in Ireland.

Read the letter here:

https://googledrive.com/host/0B-I9-UzQPCWVQ2liakZndldoS00/sas-norwegian.pdf


Article in Norwegian:

http://www.nettavisen.no/na24/bevise...elegger-for-norwegian/5170083.html





and Aviation Week's comment on the issues:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/AW_02_24_2014_p24-665088.xml&p=1


Norwegian is certainly creating a stirr ...
 
tortugamon
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:38 pm

As long as the aircraft is maintained properly and the pilots are trained and have the requisite hours and certifications I don't see a reason why this should not go through. I like that DY is mixing it up a little bit on long haul.

tortugamon
 
Mortyman
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:46 pm

I don't see how Norwegian can be refused operations either.

I hope the Department of transportation / FAA in the US review the application and base their decision on facts and not on political / union pressure.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 2):
I don't see how Norwegian can be refused operations either.

I hope the Department of transportation / FAA in the US review the application and base their decision on facts and not on political / union pressure.

Completely agree. I have no idea why DY shouldn't be allowed to fly to the US other than SK apparently deserves to have the market to themselves.  

On the same note, perhaps United should claim that WN shouldn't be allowed to fly internationally from HOU.....oh wait...      
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
tortugamon
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:02 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 2):
I hope the Department of transportation / FAA in the US review the application and base their decision on facts and not on political / union pressure.

The FAA isn't a political assignment and really should be immune from any special interest. Their budget is approved by Congress but its really a separate entity whose sole interest is tax payer safety. In theory. I don't think they have a say in this anyway but historically I have always seen their rulings to be apolitical

DOT on the other hand is where the wrinkle can come into play. The head of that department is a cabinet position with direct communication to the President. That is where the politics can certainly enter into it. We will see what will happen. It sure does have many people in an uproar. Not consumer rights activists; mainly unions and industry advocates. It will be interesting to see where it comes out.

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 3):
On the same note, perhaps United should claim that WN shouldn't be allowed to fly internationally from HOU.....oh wait...

I have a hard time seeing WN's angle. I don't see too many passengers using WN to connect to an international flight.

tortugamon
 
bjorn14
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:46 pm

Well the DOT has played politics. Guyana designated OJ and BW as national flag carriers and the DOT denied them route authority on GEO-JFK. DL apparently has plans for the route.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:44 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 5):
Well the DOT has played politics. Guyana designated OJ and BW as national flag carriers and the DOT denied them route authority on GEO-JFK. DL apparently has plans for the route.

I know it's anecdotal to the thread, but Delta already had the route but cut it last year. BW also flies it with a daily 763.  
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
sweair
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:20 am

Yeah its bad that swedes have the option to travel IC from ARN. This can not be! SK should have the right to decide who flies where..

This sort of crap makes me fly SK even less, sickening!
 
321neo
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:35 am

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Together with German Lufthansa, the company engages in active lobbying

Lobbying, how pathetic! When I read the thread title I thought it was going to be some sort of new operations-related joint venture initiative. But of course not!   
 
PanAm747LHR
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:09 pm

All of you are failing to see the bigger picture. DY is hiring crews in Thailand and the US so that they can avoid labor regulations at home in Norway. They're outsourcing. This is also why they are registering their airplanes in Ireland. This way they can get around labor regulations at home and still fly under the EU-US open skies agreement. They're cheating. Everyone else is playing by the rules, and they are not. That's why SK and LH are lobbying against them, as they rightly should. They are protecting their interest. There is just as much anger towards DY on this side of the Atlantic, and rightly so. If DY were hiring crews in Norway and paying them fair wages, then great. Bring on the flying! But not like this...

Here's the ALPA press release from earlier this month. http://www.alpa.org/Portals/Alpa/Pre...ressReleases/2014/2-5-14_14.11.htm

And more press... http://blog.seattlepi.com/flyingless...icate-to-norwegians-shell-company/

What Norwegian is doing is essentially screwing over their employees and paving the way for others to do the same if the trend isn't stopped now. So keep up the good work, SK! And all the others who are lobbying against this service.

Here's where you can sign the petition against the service... http://www.change.org/petitions/anth...ous-application-to-fly-into-the-us

Happy flying, all!
 
madviking
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:39 pm

Are their current 737 pilots of Norwegian or Scandinavian/EU origin? Are they initiating this scheme to have an unfair cost advantage over the legacies? I can see why SK and LH want to block this but as 321neo mentions above, it would be better if SK and LH joined forces and use Star power to counter DY's expansion.
 
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mayor
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:52 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 4):
The FAA isn't a political assignment and really should be immune from any special interest. Their budget is approved by Congress but its really a separate entity whose sole interest is tax payer safety. In theory. I don't think they have a say in this anyway but historically I have always seen their rulings to be apolitical

DOT on the other hand is where the wrinkle can come into play. The head of that department is a cabinet position with direct communication to the President. That is where the politics can certainly enter into it. We will see what will happen. It sure does have many people in an uproar. Not consumer rights activists; mainly unions and industry advocates. It will be interesting to see where it comes out.

Except that the FAA is a department WITHIN the DOT. There may be no direct influence on the FAA, but I'm sure any influences on the DOT can trickle down to the FAA, if necessary.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
jcwr56
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:54 pm

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 9):
This way they can get around labor regulations at home and still fly under the EU-US open skies agreement.

This has been asked many times....

Can anyone please link any Statute that states what DY is doing is lllegal under the current EU-US agreements?

Anyone??
 
Mortyman
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:43 pm

Quoting madviking (Reply 10):
Are their current 737 pilots of Norwegian or Scandinavian/EU origin? Are they initiating this scheme to have an unfair cost advantage over the legacies?

Competing against SAS who is a partly government owned airline and who basically gets financial help when they get in trouble, is not fair towards Norwegian, now is it ?

If it had'nt been for Norwegian and other Scandinavian tax payers, SAS would have been out of the sky a long time ago. In the last 20 years, the airline has gotten so much financial help from the Scandinavian governments, that there has basically been no competion and impossible to fight against SAS and their monopoly, despite their fiancial troubles. Luckily, more and more people in Scandinavia and the Scandinavian governments are getting tired of paying for an airline that delivers budget loss after budget loss, that finally someone like a private company like Norwegian has gtten a FAIR chance of competing against them.


There are many ways to look at this
 
copenhagenboy
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:36 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 13):
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 13):
In the last 20 years, the airline has gotten so much financial help from the Scandinavian governments, that there has basically been no competion and impossible to fight against SAS and their monopoly

Do you really mean that there has been no competition and a de facto monopoly in and out of the Scandinavian market in the last 20 years?

I can easily suggest many airline companies who has been or are competing with SK.

[Edited 2014-03-01 11:08:12]
 
skystar767
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:52 pm

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 9):

The United States have been outsourcing American jobs for many many years now. I don't see what DY is doing as a problem. The airline industry is the last of the plan to outsource for cheaper labor. American airline does it in South America, delta in Asia , Finn air has or will have a New York base with all Americans,CX has LAX and SFO flight attendant base. Over the years the unions have gotten out of control. Workers took unions for safety and better pay in the work place,but over the years unions are trying to run companies. Most unions in Europe and the USA are only for them self and not the well being of the workers. 99 % percent of the problem is NOT the unions BUT the people who runs the UNIONS.
 
Mortyman
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:52 pm

Quoting copenhagenboy (Reply 14):
Do you really mean that there has been no competition and a de facto monopoly in and out of the Scandinavian market in the last 20 years?

I can easily suggest many airline companies who has been or are competing with SK.



Private owned Airlines compeeting on the same lucrative terms as partly government owned SAS, who for 20 years + has gotten financial help from the Scandinavian governments ?

[Edited 2014-03-01 11:57:43]
 
tortugamon
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:56 pm

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 9):
If DY were hiring crews in Norway and paying them fair wages, then great.

I can see why Europeans might have a problem with it. I can see why Norwegian government could have a problem with it. I don't understand why the US DOT should have a problem with it. In terms of flying I don't particularly care how much my flight attendant makes as long as she is properly trained in the event of an emergency. Being attractive helps.

In terms of pilots; I want them to get the going fair rate but I am more interested in the airline's safety record and that the pilots have the requisite number of hours and certifications and that the European rules and regulations in terms of operating hours and aircraft inspections and what not are maintained.

From a US perspective I really don't see why this is any different than any other airline wanting to fly to the US. I don't think its the US DOT's responsibility to prevent an airline from skirting the rules in Norway or the European Union regardless of how they interpret those rules.

I don't see this as harmful to the US public in terms of safety which really should be the US DOT's primary concern.

Quoting mayor (Reply 11):
There may be no direct influence on the FAA, but I'm sure any influences on the DOT can trickle down to the FAA, if necessary.

I am sure it can. Maybe I have been watching too much West Wing or something but their charter is ensuring the safety of the flying public and really is meant to be separate. Its on full display when there is a crash imo. Those press conferences release appear to be very open, honest, and factual regardless of the implications. Again, I am usual cynical so its rare for me to be naive when it comes to government entities but I think the FAA has done a pretty good job imo.

tortugamon
 
Mir
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:52 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 12):
Can anyone please link any Statute that states what DY is doing is lllegal under the current EU-US agreements?

Anyone??
"The Parties recognise the importance of the social dimension of the Agreement and the
benefits that arise when open markets are accompanied by high labour standards. The
opportunities created by the Agreement are not intended to undermine labour standards or the
labour-related rights and principles contained in the Parties' respective laws."


http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/143930.pdf

Whether what Norwegian is trying to do is contrary to the text of the treaty is a matter for discusison, but it certainly isn't in keeping with the spirit of it. Norwegian claims that an EU-based airline is necessary to do the route structure they want to do, but they could have picked any number of countries. They chose Ireland, whose laws don't require that crews be hired under Irish contracts, and thus they're able to choose lower-cost crew. You can draw from that whatever conclusion you want, but know that there are only two carriers with Irish licenses that could not reasonably be considered Irish. CityJet is one, Norwegian is the other. And Norwegian is the only one that does not serve Ireland at all.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 17):
I don't understand why the US DOT should have a problem with it.

If the treaty is violated, then the DOT should have a problem with it. The determination to be made is whether Norwegian's proposal does violate the treaty.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
planemaker
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:08 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 4):
The FAA isn't a political assignment and really should be immune from any special interest. Their budget is approved by Congress but its really a separate entity whose sole interest is tax payer safety.

Congress, or I should say members of Congress, certainly do meddle with the FAA when any group in their district is impacted. Case in point is NextGen ATC. Since it results in job losses several new facilities have not been permitted to open by Congress.

Quoting skystar767 (Reply 15):
The United States have been outsourcing American jobs for many many years now. I don't see what DY is doing as a problem. The airline industry is the last of the plan to outsource for cheaper labor.

That is the hilarious part... and we don't even have to look at products we build in China or call centers in the Philippines. With NAFTA a lot of manufacturing was moved to Mexico and Queretaro is building an aerospace hub with a lot of major players present. Plus, some airline maintenance is being done in Latin America.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
PanHAM
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:02 am

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 9):
All of you are failing to see the bigger picture

     

Exactly. Fully agree with your arguments It is about a Level playing field. If Norwegian ants to run Long haul Operation from Scandinavian cities they have to do that with a Norwegian or Swedish cost base. SAS simply cannot compete under siuch conditions.

The alternative would be to allow all EU carriers to relocate their Company seats to Dublin or Shannon Airports and fly under the Irish flag of convenience. From there it would be a small step to Register in Ghana or the Ivory Coast.

It is not only about cost of labour it is about pying taxes and social contribuons not only by the Company but the employees as well. This should be where the product originates, not in a tax haven. Last, the consumers should lknow that the Name "Norwegian" in that case is actually a fake.
Champagne must come from a Region in France, Parma Ham from the Region in Italy and so on. Calling a carrier with an Iriswh AOC "Norwegian" is consumer betrayal.





Quoting skystar767 (Reply 15):
The United States have been outsourcing American jobs for many many years now. I

The saqme mistake again, comparing manufacturing with Services. Beside the fact that an "American Job" is a job that is sustainable under American conditions, meaning that the consumer is willing and able to pay the costs of the American Jobs for the goods they produce, many such Jobs are returning to America because Labor in the US can be a lot cheaper These days than in Japan or Germany. Wages are lower in the US and a lot of social BS is unknown there.

But back to Services. Can a Mexican truck Driver drive his rig on US highways? More, can that Mexican rig be operated there even with a US Driver on board? Can a ship under German or Ghanese flag carry Containers from Miami to Boston? The answer is NO again. More to that, even if the vessel would be US registered, operated by a full American Crew, it would be illegal for such a ship even to carry a pouch of documents "cabotage".

The additional requirement would be that such a vessel would have to be build on a US shipyard by US Labor. The result of such laws is that no American Jobs are created and I-95 is full to the brim each day.



So we have 2 contradicting opinions here. The Norwegian carriers trial run to use the loopholes Ryanair and Easy have used on purely EU single market routes and the over protective US laws working against the interests of the US consumers.

The difference in is, Norwegian's Long hauls ops afre international Business, same as the Mexican truck. The shipping line from FL to Boston and ports on thew way would be US domestic and was used only as an example to Show how restrictive US trading laws can be.


Back to the Level playing field. We had These discussions about the ME3 and EY that goes a different way than the other 2 by buying into EU carriers with the Intention to by-pass the rules. I don't want to deepen that discussion here, would be off Topic. But essential it is the same what DY tries with their Long haul ops, It is bending the rules and testing out what can be done and will be tolerated. Someone here has mentioned that famous "tax payer". The tax payers are always consumers as well. They save a bit on lonmg distance flying over what they would have had to pay with SK, but the take the strain in paying subsidies to SK becase the Regulators did not do their Job.

Their Job is to maintain a Level playing field. DY, FR and Co are raisin pickers, they drop routes next day if they are not profitable. The legacy carriers are the one who keep the necessary infrastructure modern national economies need intact.. I do not want to leave the decision whether a vital air route from an industrial City to someone in Dublin and certainly not anyone in Abu Dhabi or Doha.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
skipness1E
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:21 am

Very good post PanHAM, Norwegian should absolutely be allowed to compete with SAS but not at the expense of driving a truck through the spirit of the rules. They're not technically breaking them but they are continuing to attack terms and conditions of all EU based staff in aviation if this succeeds. They don't even want their own exisiting staff anywhere near it as they view them as too costly. They are not willing to pay the going rate of doing business in the region, and that's my issue here. A flag of convenience is never a good thing let's be honest.
 
Planesmart
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:42 am

Rest assured, even the most outspoken will be checking the potential benefits of doing the same as we write on this thread.

Will be interesting to see how many airlines implicated in anti-competitive activities against Laker four plus decades ago, are still outspoken about competition today.
 
Mortyman
Topic Author
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:48 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
SAS simply cannot compete under siuch conditions.

Please note before you talk about unfair competition

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 13):
Competing against SAS who is a partly government owned airline and who basically gets financial help when they get in trouble, is not fair towards Norwegian, now is it ?

If it had'nt been for Norwegian and other Scandinavian tax payers, SAS would have been out of the sky a long time ago. In the last 20 years, the airline has gotten so much financial help from the Scandinavian governments, that there has basically been no competion and impossible to fight against SAS and their monopoly, despite their fiancial troubles. Luckily, more and more people in Scandinavia and the Scandinavian governments are getting tired of paying for an airline that delivers budget loss after budget loss, that finally someone like a private company like Norwegian has gtten a FAIR chance of competing against them.



There are many types of unfairness ...

[Edited 2014-03-02 02:53:15]
 
jcwr56
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:02 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):

Mir,

Thank you. It does seem it's more of a political issue now whether the agreement is now sided to protect Labor or benefits consumers.


"ARTICLE 21
Further Expansion of Opportunities
1.
The Parties commit to the shared goal of continuing to remove market access barriers in order to maximise benefits for consumers, airlines, labour, and communities on both sides of the Atlantic, induding enhancing the access of their airlines to global capital markets, so as better to reflect the realities of global aviation industry, the strengthening of the transatlantic air transportation system, and the establishment ofa framework that will encourage other countries to open up their own air services markets.

Here's a paragraph that caught my eye.....

5.
The Parties share the goal of maximising the benefits for consumers, airlines, labour, and communities on both sides of the Atlantic by extending this Agreement to include third countries. To this the Joint Committee shall consider, as appropriate. the conditions and procedures, any necessary amendments to this Agreement, that would be required or additional third countries to accede to this Agreement.


Now DY could argue this clause to Labour bringing in a third country as the agreement allows.



Interesting arguments for both sides and ones that will have to be addressed both by the EU and U.S.
 
dhr
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:20 pm

I don't see why Norwegian's application should be refused. The main arguments are cheaper labor.

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 9):
All of you are failing to see the bigger picture. DY is hiring crews in Thailand and the US so that they can avoid labor regulations at home in Norway.

And, so what? Globalization my friend, everyone does it but the only difference here is that Norwegian is a LCC and offers lower fares, the legacy carriers charge higher fares. Does that mean that everyone should be paying their workers higher wages and charging higher fares using the legacy carriers as a benchmark?

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 9):
They're cheating. Everyone else is playing by the rules, and they are not.

You can hardly call this cheating, they are using the existing mechanisms to drive out high cost, the fact that Norwegian is setting up various long haul bases around Europe is what's driving the legacy carriers crazy. Legacy carriers have failed to take the option of operating long haul services from other countries to the USA (most likely because their alliance contracts prohibit this), but that's their problem.

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 9):
What Norwegian is doing is essentially screwing over their employees and paving the way for others to do the same if the trend isn't stopped now. So keep up the good work, SK! And all the others who are lobbying against this service.

As far as I recall, Norwegian Long haul is a separate company and I fail to see what their short haul airline employees are being screwed.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
Quoting skystar767 (Reply 15):
The United States have been outsourcing American jobs for many many years now. I

The same mistake again, comparing manufacturing with Services.

Why should the services industry be immune from this, is there a law or regulation within the World Trade agreements that exempt the services industries from such practices?

Overall, what we are seeing the legacy carriers (and their unions) trying to force real competition out of the market. Norwegian Long Haul is a different beast compared to a legacy national carriers business model. They have seen their short haul operations decimated by the LCC phenomenon and now their long haul operations are under attack from the same beast, the LCC business model.
 
skipness1E
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:44 pm

Quoting dhr (Reply 25):
I don't see why Norwegian's application should be refused. The main arguments are cheaper labor.

Market lowering labour, opening the door for the industry to cut even further.

Quoting dhr (Reply 25):
Globalization my friend, everyone does it but the only difference

Unmitigated globalisation means Bangladeshi sweatshops making cheap goods for us rich westerness. Are you in favour of globalisation per se? Personally I prefer managed globalisation where it's not just one group exploiting another. In the UK, the measures of inequality are going in reverese, the haves are getting more and the have nots are getting further behind. I say that as someone far from being a trendy lefty !

Quoting dhr (Reply 25):
As far as I recall, Norwegian Long haul is a separate company and I fail to see what their short haul airline employees are being screwed.

It means Norwegian is setting up a new company simply to say "We are not going to let our exisiting crew fly long haul because we have found a group of people who will fly for wayyyyy less." Sends a great message to the employees. Do you honestly not understand that?

Quoting dhr (Reply 25):
Why should the services industry be immune from this, is there a law or regulation within the World Trade agreements that exempt the services industries from such practices?

It can damage society as a whole if allowed to go too far, it's not all about economics, share price and offering the publis an even better deal, What they save on air fares comes out of taxes to pay for the welfare of all those people who no longer have jobs. Without mitigation it's short sighted, unrestrained capitalism. Before anyone yells "Are you a commie?", I used the word "mitigated", in terms of managed and regulated sensibly to ensure damage to exisiting incomes and employment is not extensive. Globalisation taken too far only makes a select few, already often privileged and occasionally not that bright, richer at the expense of others. That's not the form of capitalism most of us need I think.
 
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zeke
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:10 pm

Quoting dhr (Reply 25):

I don't think the argument is cheap labour, it is how they are employed, or more to the point not employed at all in a Europe or by the airline. From what I understand they are being employed under individual contracts under Singapore law, based in Thailand (without a Thai work visa, or EU minimum stipulated labour protections), for an airline that is licensed in Ireland and carries the Norwegian flag.

I see it as a sham arrangement, deliberately setup not only to bypass labour laws, also to avoid paying tax.

The whole point about respecting labour laws is to ensure tax is paid at some point so that social benefits can be funded, the way the crew contracts are structured, the whole of the EU is indirectly subsidising the retirement and health benefits of these employees. Who pays for the schooling and medical benefits of the crews family which I assume will remain in a Europe as they don't have a visa to live and work in Thailand,

Who will pick up the tab if the airline goes bust, Norway or Ireland, where do these governments get their funds from.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
ElPistolero
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:10 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
SK teams up with LH in the fight against Norwegian's long haul operations

Then they've picked the right partner. If there is one airline that excels at lobbying governments rather than competing, it has to be LH.

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 9):
All of you are failing to see the bigger picture.

Not really. Anybody criticizing this is seeing a bigger picture than the airline-centric view that a lot of airline employees and afficiandos adopt here. The big picture would inevitably focus on what is best for Norway: More accessible flights (a product of cheaper flights) or the welfare of, and tax generation by, a handful of not particularly well-paid airline employees? The same applies to the rest of Europe. Holding a billion odd Europeans hostage to the welfare of thousands of Airline employees is a tad bit daft. Its not like these airline employees are earning blockbuster wages or generating disproportionately high amount of taxes (unless something's changed recently). In all likelihood, the vast majority of them will get substitutable jobs with similar wages that they earn now - which really is an indication of the value of their particular job to the market as a whole.

I would counsel avoid using terms like 'bigger picture' in the context of tawdry protectionist activism. Basic economics, particularly of the consumer-oriented kind, will make a mockery of that notion.

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 9):
DY is hiring crews in Thailand and the US so that they can avoid labor regulations at home in Norway. They're outsourcing.

Begs the question: so what? Many companies set up offshore operations to skirt competitive disadvantages at home. Why does it suddenly become significant when airlines start doing it?

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 9):
This is also why they are registering their airplanes in Ireland. This way they can get around labor regulations at home and still fly under the EU-US open skies agreement. They're cheating. Everyone else is playing by the rules, and they are not.

I fail to see what the problem is. Ireland is an EU country. Irish regulations are acceptable to the EU at large. If this is unacceptable, perhaps its time to kick Ireland out of the EU?

As for cheating, are they cheating? If they operate within Irish rules, I fail to see how they are breaking any rules.

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 9):
That's why SK and LH are lobbying against them, as they rightly should. They are protecting their interest.

Protecting one's interests and doing the right thing are often two different things. It is, indeed, right for LH and SK to protect their own skin. It would, perhaps, be too 'right' for them to actually compete, instead of carrying on this never-ending self-righteous whining. Other companies have to deal with these types of challenges all the time. For whatever reason, airlines are deemed too special.

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 9):
What Norwegian is doing is essentially screwing over their employees and paving the way for others to do the same if the trend isn't stopped now. So keep up the good work, SK! And all the others who are lobbying against this service.

And here I thought you were about the bigger picture... Think of it this way. In theory, DY will come in with lower prices. Lower prices corresponds with an increase in disposable income for consumers, who now have more money to stimulate other, more efficient, sectors of the economy. Those sectors will grow, and rehire the same people. I don't think it hurts that FAs aren't the best paid folk around; won't take them long to get back to similar salaries.

Will theory match up with reality? I suppose the answer to that depends on whether you think the world is worse off because of outsourcing.

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
Norwegian claims that an EU-based airline is necessary to do the route structure they want to do, but they could have picked any number of countries. They chose Ireland, whose laws don't require that crews be hired under Irish contracts, and thus they're able to choose lower-cost crew.

Ergo, they're being smart and taking the opportunities where they arise.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
Exactly. Fully agree with your arguments It is about a Level playing field.

The level-playing field is a myth, and a rather opportunistic one at that. You can't have a level playing field when you have a giant incumbent with advantageous economies of scale. And yet, no one complains about LH.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
If Norwegian ants to run Long haul Operation from Scandinavian cities they have to do that with a Norwegian or Swedish cost base.

Why? AFAIK, LH hires Indian crew and doesn't pay them German wages. Are you arguing that LH should replace them with Germans? (For the record, I am agnostic on this matter)

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
The alternative would be to allow all EU carriers to relocate their Company seats to Dublin or Shannon Airports and fly under the Irish flag of convenience.

What's stopping them? It would be eminently sensible for them to do precisely that, just as German companies have moved entire factories to China and are reaping some benefits for it.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
This should be where the product originates, not in a tax haven. Last, the consumers should lknow that the Name "Norwegian" in that case is actually a fake.

Questionable logic, if only because of the proliferation of sparkling wine, which has now replaced champagne in the premium cabins of several carriers. If consumers want champagne, they can buy the legit stuff. If they don't care, they can buy the cheap knock-off. Point being: its the consumer's choice.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
Champagne must come from a Region in France, Parma Ham from the Region in Italy and so on. Calling a carrier with an Iriswh AOC "Norwegian" is consumer betrayal.


I am struggling with the logic behind this. In a world of multi-national corporations, I'm having difficulty applying your logic. When does a German company with its manufacturing facilities in China stop being German and start being Chinese? By a similar token, does Microsoft having an Indian CEO make it an Indian company?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):

The saqme mistake again, comparing manufacturing with Services. Beside the fact that an "American Job" is a job that is sustainable under American conditions, meaning that the consumer is willing and able to pay the costs of the American Jobs for the goods they produce, many such Jobs are returning to America because Labor in the US can be a lot cheaper These days than in Japan or Germany. Wages are lower in the US and a lot of social BS is unknown there.

If that's the case, what's the issue?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
But back to Services. Can a Mexican truck Driver drive his rig on US highways? More, can that Mexican rig be operated there even with a US Driver on board? Can a ship under German or Ghanese flag carry Containers from Miami to Boston? The answer is NO again. More to that, even if the vessel would be US registered, operated by a full American Crew, it would be illegal for such a ship even to carry a pouch of documents "cabotage".

Will DY be engaging in cabotage? Cabotage is legal in the EU, so there's no issue there. I haven't seen anything to suggest that DY will operate cabotage flights in the US. What am I missing?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
But essential it is the same what DY tries with their Long haul ops, It is bending the rules and testing out what can be done and will be tolerated. Someone here has mentioned that famous "tax payer". The tax payers are always consumers as well. They save a bit on lonmg distance flying over what they would have had to pay with SK, but the take the strain in paying subsidies to SK becase the Regulators did not do their Job.

Bending the rules? You mean in the same way that LH is using proxies like OS and LX to increase its sixth freedom capacity in India?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):

Their Job is to maintain a Level playing field.

Whose job? And how do you maintain a level playing field where some actors will inevitably have first mover advantage and advantageous economies of scale over new entrants?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
The legacy carriers are the one who keep the necessary infrastructure modern national economies need intact..

That's nonsense. The legacy carriers operate for their own interests. They aren't altruistic. Forcing Germans to hub through one or two airports and then having a hissy fit when the likes of TK show up at secondary airports ... its pretty clear LH is less interested in seeing Germans well-served than it is in its own bottom line. Nothing wrong with that...aside from being thoroughly inconsistent with your vision.
 
dhr
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:16 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 26):
Market lowering labour, opening the door for the industry to cut even further.

During the past few years a number of countries have had BDP in a downward spiral creating more unemployment, businesses in a number of countries have lowered wages during restructuring and employed new people on lower wages. It's a cycle which has been present for decades.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 26):
Unmitigated globalisation means Bangladeshi sweatshops making cheap goods for us rich westerness. Are you in favour of globalisation per se? Personally I prefer managed globalisation where it's not just one group exploiting another. In the UK, the measures of inequality are going in reverese, the haves are getting more and the have nots are getting further behind. I say that as someone far from being a trendy lefty !

The have and the have-not's have always been there and will increase in the future, this comes down to government policies and regulation. As mentioned elsewhere, hiring crews in other countries has always been present, what is the difference now, because we are talking about a LCC airline?

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 26):
It means Norwegian is setting up a new company simply to say "We are not going to let our exisiting crew fly long haul because we have found a group of people who will fly for wayyyyy less." Sends a great message to the employees. Do you honestly not understand that?

Wrong argument, Norwegian (short haul and long haul) are growing, I fail to see how existing crews can fly all these new deliveries while not exceeding their flight duty limitations. The companies are growing massively and require new hires to operate all these new deliveries so they are not taking jobs away from existing employees and I doubt Norwegian is sacking current employees to hire labor in another country, that would be wrong.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 26):
It can damage society as a whole if allowed to go too far, it's not all about economics, share price and offering the publis an even better deal, What they save on air fares comes out of taxes to pay for the welfare of all those people who no longer have jobs. Without mitigation it's short sighted, unrestrained capitalism. Before anyone yells "Are you a commie?", I used the word "mitigated", in terms of managed and regulated sensibly to ensure damage to exisiting incomes and employment is not extensive. Globalisation taken too far only makes a select few, already often privileged and occasionally not that bright, richer at the expense of others. That's not the form of capitalism most of us need I think.

The airline industry has been asking for liberalization in world markets for years, the main argument being that the industry is too regulated and they want the same standards as any other industry. What, we are now saying we don't want it because a new kid has arrived on the block operating to regulations that were drawn up to liberalize a particular market?
 
ElPistolero
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:29 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 26):
Market lowering labour, opening the door for the industry to cut even further.

Ah, but its a function of consumer choices. The question then is: Is it the job of Governments to keep wage rates above what people are willing to pay? And if so, should it be applied to every sector? What we know now, beyond doubt, thanks to the Soviet Union, is that it is inefficient and even damaging for governments to tamper with market dynamics in consumer sectors. If the market isn't allowed to adjust, everyone is worse off till it does.

The entire logic behind the liberalization of air regulations is that increases in air traffic stimulate economic growth. Lower prices stimulate traffic, as we've seen with FR. In the bigger picture, that has been deemed a good thing for the EU as a whole. If one relatively segment of the workforce loses its wages, that isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially since they're hardly well-paid right now, and there are plenty of jobs that will pay similar wages.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 26):
Unmitigated globalisation means Bangladeshi sweatshops making cheap goods for us rich westerness. Are you in favour of globalisation per se? Personally I prefer managed globalisation where it's not just one group exploiting another. In the UK, the measures of inequality are going in reverese, the haves are getting more and the have nots are getting further behind. I say that as someone far from being a trendy lefty !

That's one way of looking at it. The other way of looking at it is by looking at the professional classes that are developing across the developing world who are now creating mature markets in their own right that are beneficial for the West. Sure, jobs have been outsourced to India, which, in turn, has become one of the largest sources of foreign investment for the UK. Indian companies have helped stabilize Jaguar and Land Rover jobs in the UK by acquiring them. Its not exactly a one way street anymore.

Yes, the sweatshops are terrible, but if we are to take that line, we must apply it consistently. BA and LH source all sorts of stuff (headphones, blankets, even A320s) made in China because of the lower cost of labour/ weaker labour laws there. I don't hear the LH crowd and others say much about that when they demand the protection of german jobs. What gives? And more to the point, how would LH et al be doing if they had to acquire everything - right down to the smallest widget - in Germany?

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 26):
It means Norwegian is setting up a new company simply to say "We are not going to let our exisiting crew fly long haul because we have found a group of people who will fly for wayyyyy less." Sends a great message to the employees. Do you honestly not understand that?

You mean like Airbus when they built that A320 plant in China?
 
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:35 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 28):
I fail to see what the problem is. Ireland is an EU country. Irish regulations are acceptable to the EU at large. If this is unacceptable, perhaps its time to kick Ireland out of the EU?

I hope I don't offend by mentioning that Norway is not part of the EU. Norway has had two referendums on joining the EU, both were in favour of not joining.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
ElPistolero
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:47 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 31):
I hope I don't offend by mentioning that Norway is not part of the EU. Norway has had two referendums on joining the EU, both were in favour of not joining.

I get that. I was referring specifically to DY setting up in Ireland and taking advantage of EU-US open skies. As I understand it, Norway already has Open Skies with the US so I don't think they view Norwegian airlines in a negative light.
 
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zeke
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:07 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 32):

Norway was roped in as part of the EU US agreement in 2011, it is however not a member of the EU.

The undesired effects that are now being put forward have been anticipated by steak holders for some time. http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/...doc/us_2009_11_10_chene_report.pdf
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
Mortyman
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:08 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 31):
I hope I don't offend by mentioning that Norway is not part of the EU. Norway has had two referendums on joining the EU, both were in favour of not joining.

Norway is not part of the EU, but we are part of the European Economic Area

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%98S
 
ElPistolero
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:12 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 33):
Norway was roped in as part of the EU US agreement in 2011, it is however not a member of the EU.

Norway has had Open Skies with the US since 1995. It was included in the EU-US agreement in 2011. Ergo, as far as I can tell, no rules broken.
 
dhr
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:21 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 28):
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 28):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
This should be where the product originates, not in a tax haven. Last, the consumers should lknow that the Name "Norwegian" in that case is actually a fake.

Questionable logic, if only because of the proliferation of sparkling wine, which has now replaced champagne in the premium cabins of several carriers. If consumers want champagne, they can buy the legit stuff. If they don't care, they can buy the cheap knock-off. Point being: its the consumer's choice.

To add to this, BMW have manufacturing plants all over the world such as South Africa while advertising itself as a German car. Does this mean that BMW should only be manufacturing in Germany? There's a number of airlines that have setup IT subsidiaries in India in the past to build their internal applications, how was this allowed? Is this a level playing field for the IT industry and home country employees in the IT industry in Europe? I think not.
 
Mir
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:54 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 24):
5.
The Parties share the goal of maximising the benefits for consumers, airlines, labour, and communities on both sides of the Atlantic by extending this Agreement to include third countries. To this the Joint Committee shall consider, as appropriate. the conditions and procedures, any necessary amendments to this Agreement, that would be required or additional third countries to accede to this Agreement.


Now DY could argue this clause to Labour bringing in a third country as the agreement allows.

If you're referring to the employment contracts they have, that third country would be required to be signatory to the treaty. Ireland is, Norway is, but Singapore and Thailand are definitely not. So that argument wouldn't fly with their current setup.

Quoting dhr (Reply 25):
the only difference here is that Norwegian is a LCC and offers lower fares, the legacy carriers charge higher fares. Does that mean that everyone should be paying their workers higher wages and charging higher fares using the legacy carriers as a benchmark?

Norwegian is flying to the US right now, and they're doing it with some pretty damn cheap fares. And they're doing it while being based in Norway and not Ireland. So I'm not sure why them being Irish is a necessary ingredient for the transatlantic LCC model.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
skipness1E
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:19 pm

Goodness this has become an exercise in politics hasn't it. I come from a background in the UK where Thatcher closed the heavy industry so the UK could become competitive. There was no future for whole communities so we now pay our taxies to give them welfare. Some families are now on their third generation of worklessness, whole towns which have no point or future economically. That's the downside of globalisation. It has been all good for me, I am a lucky guy, however I know many proud villages and towns where people as smart as I just won't make it, or have the chances I got. In my country, and the US, those who had, now have even more, those who didn't are seeing the gulf between the haves and have nots widen. There's a moral case here, if you are seeing it purely in economics you are being selective.
We have to pay to look after all the people who don't make it into white collar jobs.

In London, we need to import talent as there's not enough locals with the right skills. The talent pool just isn't there, it's not a matter of education. So forgive me if I don't celebrate shafting people's salaries by using Thai labour just so I, already a "have", can save a few quid on my next holiday.

I am sensing a degree of glee, satisfaction among some posters on here that the plebs are being kept in their place, or perhaps I am being unfair on the keyboard warriors among us?  
 
LN-KGL
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:19 pm

This thread was about Scandinavian Airlines teaming up with Lufthansa to try to deny Norwegian to fly Trans Atlantic flights. One of the reasons SAS and DLH mention for denying Norwegian to fly to theU.S. is because they are trying to undermine the "high labor standards for the EU-U.S. markets". SAS at least has put it self in a dangerous situation since they only six months ago decided to offshore large part of the SAS IT business/systems to India and Tata Consultancy Services. The result will be a lot of jobs lost in Scandinavia replaced with lower paid jobs in India. How much this undermine the labor standards for SAS's total business is difficult to say, but it is clearly a way to reduce costs considerably. There is saying: people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Source: http://www.tcs.com/news_events/press...-SAS-TCS-Strategic-IT-Partner.aspx
 
PanHAM
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:54 pm

Quoting dhr (Reply 25):

Why should the services industry be immune from this, is there a law or regulation within the World Trade agreements that exempt the services industries from such practices?

There is a fundamental difference between manufacturing and Services, that is why comparisons of the 2 always fail. A manufacturer usually sells 100% if his products, a certain percentage goes at Discount Prices, depending on the product. The product of an Airline spoils 10 minutes before they start with the production. Same for Hotels, Restaurants. completely different Basic conditions.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 28):
Why? AFAIK, LH hires Indian crew and doesn't pay them German wages. Are you arguing that LH should replace them with Germans? (For the record, I am agnostic on this matter)

LH also hired Japanese Crews, from the date they started flying to Japan. Has to do with language. Indian, Japanese Crews etc. are based in their home countries and Indian Crews that work for LH do not fly services within the EU.
Crews based in Germany are employed under German contracts, regardless what their home Country is.

.

Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 39):
There is saying: people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

Well, where do you think DY does their IT, or their international call centres? If they can source that out to other countries they will do that. Modern Technology has opened These gates for the benefit of the Indian University graduates BTW, getting Jobs in their home countries they would not get without modern communication Technology.

We talk here about pure airline ops., not the back Office.

I have mentioned the "flags of convenience" in my earlier contribution. Norwegian is trying to establish such a model by bending the rules and testing out what government agencies accept. The raisin pickers from the Middle east are doing theirs, with unlimited budgets and no worries about the numbers of widebodies they order. Something a European airline CEO / airline board simply could not do without facing jail when the plans go wrong.

Regardless what some here say, it is about Level plaing fields. The governments, the EU commission have to set the rules under which competition can take place. They have to understand how the airline Business works and that cannot be done without Lobbying.




.
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mayor
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:24 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 17):
Quoting mayor (Reply 11):There may be no direct influence on the FAA, but I'm sure any influences on the DOT can trickle down to the FAA, if necessary.
I am sure it can. Maybe I have been watching too much West Wing or something but their charter is ensuring the safety of the flying public and really is meant to be separate.

Whether it SHOULD be separate or not, the fact is that the FAA Administrator answers to the Secretary of Transportation, the DOT.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
ElPistolero
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:27 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 38):
I am a lucky guy, however I know many proud villages and towns where people as smart as I just won't make it, or have the chances I got. In my country, and the US, those who had, now have even more, those who didn't are seeing the gulf between the haves and have nots widen. There's a moral case here, if you are seeing it purely in economics you are being selective.

This is not a problem unique to the UK, US or any other country. Canada has a similar problem - a shortage of people in certain trades and an excessively large supply in others. Its nothing new. The reality isn't that the jobs don't exist anymore; the reality is that they have moved, but people don't want to move with them. In my own country, this has become an issue of internal job dislocation, where some provinces are starved of workers while others have a surplus. Unfortunately, no one wants to move. Similarly, if you're a proud person who wants to work in the airline industry, there are jobs around the world. If you insist on sticking to your own countries, where opportunities aren't going to be great, well, its an informed risk and there are consequences. I don't see it as a moral case as much as a practical case. One can complain and demand protection. Or one can adapt. I'll leave it to you to decide which nations are faring better: those who have adopted protectionist policies? Or those who have adapted.

Its not so much about politics and economics as it is about being pragmatic and realizing that you need to be dynamic in an evolving world. These pretensions of maintaining status quo...its just going to add an additional burden on all involved till it gives way, which it will. How long do you think will people be willing to pay more for something than their neighbours? Especially when the products are more less identical and information is freeing more freely than ever.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
LH also hired Japanese Crews, from the date they started flying to Japan. Has to do with language. Indian, Japanese Crews etc. are based in their home countries and Indian Crews that work for LH do not fly services within the EU.

That doesn't change the fact that they're paying less to them. Why not teach a German hindi? Because teaching a German Hindi (and consequently employing an additional German FA) is more expensive than just getting an Indian one and paying them less? I thought LH was the altruistic employer that aimed to do only what was best for Germans...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
We talk here about pure airline ops., not the back Office.

Why is airline ops any different to back office? It sounds like you're advocating that the protection of some jobs, but could care less about others. In one word: inconsistent. Why is it okay for a German airline IT worker to lose their job but not okay for a German FA to lose his or hers? Personal bias?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
I have mentioned the "flags of convenience" in my earlier contribution. Norwegian is trying to establish such a model by bending the rules and testing out what government agencies accept. The raisin pickers from the Middle east are doing theirs, with unlimited budgets and no worries about the numbers of widebodies they order. Something a European airline CEO / airline board simply could not do without facing jail when the plans go wrong.

And LH is flying Austrian and Swiss flags of convenience to circumvent bilateral restrictions. What exactly is your point? That airlines try to exploit loopholes? Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone ...and all that.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
Regardless what some here say, it is about Level plaing fields. The governments, the EU commission have to set the rules under which competition can take place. They have to understand how the airline Business works and that cannot be done without Lobbying.

Again, does first mover advantage distort level playing fields? Do economies of scale distort level playing fields? Till you answer those questions, the entire notion of level playing fields, as you propose it, is suspect.What do you mean by level playing field? Should everything be constantly leveled to ensure that new entrants are never at a disadvantage?

Airlines need to run their businesses, and governments need to let airlines run their businesses. Having airlines tell governments how other airlines (namely their competitors) should and should not run their business would make for terrific comedy, but it would be a terrible way to govern.
 
bjorn14
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:55 pm

Another thing that flew under the radar is that DY let VS pilots fly their 787s during their European introduction flights. I'm sure VS was paying their own pilots and would not have surprised me if Kjøs got paid too. I didn't hear any RP from the flight deck on my flight.

Really we can fault the legacies, they abused their monopolies. Someone will always come along who says" I can do that better an cheaper and still make a profit" Its a basic economic rule..lower prices are an entry barrier.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:58 pm

As Norway is part of the EU-US open sky treaty, I see no reason why Norwegian should not do this.
 
sr117
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:31 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 42):
Why is airline ops any different to back office? It sounds like you're advocating that the protection of some jobs, but could care less about others. In one word: inconsistent. Why is it okay for a German airline IT worker to lose their job but not okay for a German FA to lose his or hers? Personal bias?

Where is the line drawn? It is one thing to hire a person to do a job within his own country of citizenship or even between his home country and country X. But another thing entirely to hire someone in country X and have him working between country A and B.

When will we start hiring people in a country with low social burden and have them work in our offices in a completely unrelated country? The only reason it doesn't happen is because the law does not allow it, but if the law did you bet that some "ingenious" and "innovative" company would be doing it already.

I think a line has to be drawn somewhere. Applying the shipping model to the airline business is a slippery slope.
 
Mir
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 44):
As Norway is part of the EU-US open sky treaty, I see no reason why Norwegian should not do this.

The treaty protects the right of Norwegian to fly to the US, and nobody questions that. The treaty does not protect the ability to set up a shell company in another country in order to get lower costs. That's the issue.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
dhr
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:56 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
The treaty does not protect the ability to set up a shell company in another country in order to get lower costs. That's the issue.

At the end of the day it's the Irish authorities who have approved such a scheme when they issued Norwegian Longhaul's AOC. Both flight and cabin crew fall under operational control and must abide by stringent rules of which the Irish authorities have approved so I think calling Norwegian Longhaul a shell company is blurring the facts and not true.

One thing that stands out is Norwegian's US crew base and you have ALPA making statements to the tune that Norwegian's tactics could affect US jobs. In this prime case, it's increasing US jobs and yet ALPA (who in my view have become more political than actually representing their members interests) claim it will cost US jobs.
 
tortugamon
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RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:36 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 27):
Who will pick up the tab if the airline goes bust, Norway or Ireland, where do these governments get their funds from.

Ah, alas. An airline that a government won't feel a need to protect and support when things get difficult.

Quoting dhr (Reply 47):
At the end of the day it's the Irish authorities who have approved such a scheme when they issued Norwegian Longhaul's AOC.

I agree and the European airlines had a legitimate issue at that point but now this is a US DOT issue and I don't see why they should not allow it if a European government allowed it. I don't see the grounds in which they can't allow it. And they are hiring American crews and getting a tremendous turnout for the jobs.

tortugamon
 
LN-KGL
Posts: 822
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 1999 6:40 am

RE: SK Teams Up With LH In The Fight Against Norwegian

Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:43 pm

Let me remind you, The Irish Republic is one of the member states of the European Union. Should US DOT deny Norwegian Air International Ltd with an Irish AOC access to American international airports on flights from EEA countries, then the EU-US Open Skies agreement will be history.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
Well, where do you think DY does their IT, or their international call centres? If they can source that out to other countries they will do that. Modern Technology has opened These gates for the benefit of the Indian University graduates BTW, getting Jobs in their home countries they would not get without modern communication Technology.

Well, DY has neither outsourced their IT operations nor the development of their core IT systems. I may know more about IT at Norwegian on 19 March (OSWA evening).

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