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Bingo1
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How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:36 am

How is the YMM to DEN doing? Is United happy with returns? Any equipment upgrades or additional flights?
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yeginleduc
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:08 am

UA also has the oddball YLW-LAX flight here in western Canada.

With the codesharing and partnership with Aeroplan and Air Canada, I'm sure they do well or they would have been canceled already.
 
Noise
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 am

Quoting yeginleduc (Reply 1):

UA also has the oddball YLW-LAX flight here in western Canada.

Why would that be an oddball flight? LAX is a UA hub after all.
 
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mayor
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:35 pm

Quoting bingo1 (Thread starter):
How is the YMM to DEN doing?

I'll ask my daughter.....she's a F/A for SkyWest and seems to be scheduled to work this quite often.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Goldenshield
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:45 pm

Everytime I work either YMM or YLW, the loads have been pretty full. It's not every day, but it's often enough.
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RJNUT
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:57 pm

just booked someone on it tomrmorrow a.m.leaving the oil feilds to go back to Dallas.

the customs folks up there are rough but they also get a pretty rough crowd filing thru there so i have heard it can be a pain re: work visas...

and they no preclearance in YMM so customs in Denver
 
Viscount724
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:58 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 3):
Quoting bingo1 (Thread starter):
How is the YMM to DEN doing?

I'll ask my daughter.....she's a F/A for SkyWest and seems to be scheduled to work this quite often.

I assume the crews spend two nights in YMM? The inbound flight arrives at 2345 and the outbound flight departs at 0550 which wouldn't permit enough crew rest. Must not be a very popular route for crews if they're stuck there for two nights, especially in the winter with temperatures often -30C or lower (yesterday's low -27C and high -11C).
 
thegoldenargosy
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:02 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
I assume the crews spend two nights in YMM? The inbound flight arrives at 2345 and the outbound flight departs at 0550 which wouldn't permit enough crew rest. Must not be a very popular route for crews if they're stuck there for two nights, especially in the winter with temperatures often -30C or lower (yesterday's low -27C and high -11C).

SkyWest calls these stand ups. The crews work DEN-YMM, spend a couple hours in the hotel, then fly YMM-DEN in the morning. The crew is on duty the whole time. They only work the YMM turn.
 
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mayor
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:37 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
I assume the crews spend two nights in YMM? The inbound flight arrives at 2345 and the outbound flight departs at 0550 which wouldn't permit enough crew rest. Must not be a very popular route for crews if they're stuck there for two nights, especially in the winter with temperatures often -30C or lower (yesterday's low -27C and high -11C).

Not sure, but I gathered that she wasn't spending that much time, there.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
point2point
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:45 am

Not that they're all that much similar, other than all being in the middle of the expansive central Canadian outback (if one could call it that) but both YQR and YXE (total metro populations each maybe about a quarter million) each have had UA CRJs 2X daily nonstops to DEN for quite a few years now. I didn't think that either of these with single dailies would really last long at all, but both seem to be going strong with high fares as well.

As for YMM, the metro area there (if one could even call it that) has just about 63K people, but I would assume a lot of them making a lot of oil money..... and there it's probably cold and desolate and residents want to travel a lot out of there. I don't know that DEN would be their #1 choice of where they would want to go (but who knows, maybe now with the legal changes since the first of the year?) but certainly I guess the UA folks figured out where most probably want to go, and DEN seemed to be the best place for a connect.

Now, with DEN-YMM fares pushing about $1000 per roundtrip (45 days out), that's about $0.41 per mile for this trip, so if pax from there connect at DEN, there's not really too much loss of the yield premium for UA. And just from these numbers here, at +80% l/f for a CR7, that's about 55 pax each way on a flight. That would total about 20K pax per year, or about one third of the population origination here, since I wouldn't think that YMM is that much of a destination at this time (although I could be mistaken here). I don't know what a CR7 costs to run per hour, but at 55 pax per flight, this pulls in around $27K for UA one way for about a 2 hour flight here.

I would also suppose that considering that Canadians in general like to travel, those in the YMM area would even be more likely with the combination of good pay and then all of that isolation, this flight just from my numbers above seems like a good deal for UA.

 

[Edited 2014-03-06 21:18:30]
 
opethfan
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:12 am

Quoting yeginleduc (Reply 1):

Strangely from YLW there's service to LAX, but from YYJ there's service to SFO.

Must be a difference in the O/D numbers.
 
threepoint
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:24 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 9):
As for YMM, the metro area there (if one could even call it that) has just about 63K people, but I would assume a lot of them making a lot of oil money

The surrounding area, some might point out, has tens of thousands more temporary residents in various camps. I was going to add those to your O&D estimate, but realized that almost all of them are flown in & out by charter, and tend often to simply commute home (to southern Alberta, BC and Newfoundland primarily) on the days out rotation.

Quoting point2point (Reply 9):
I would also suppose that considering that Canadians in general like to travel, those in the YMM area would even be more likely with the combination of good pay and then all of that isolation, this flight just from my numbers above seems like a good deal for UA.

Towns like Fort Mac can not be directly compared to other towns of similar size. The transient population earning high disposable incomes enable an inordinate amount of travel. It's not uncommon for folks to fly to Europe, the Caribbean, Mexico or further afield on their week to ten days off. I'm sure DEN is merely a jumping off point. It's often a choice between travel to escape, or stay home and throw away the cash on H&B.
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mtnwest1979
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:32 am

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 7):
SkyWest calls these stand ups. The crews work DEN-YMM, spend a couple hours in the hotel, then fly YMM-DEN in the morning. The crew is on duty the whole time. They only work the YMM turn.

Do they actually go to a hotel, or hang at airport? I heard that other lnes that do this the crew just sits at terminla for the time. Save $$ on motel.
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durangomac
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:40 am

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 12):
Do they actually go to a hotel, or hang at airport? I heard that other lnes that do this the crew just sits at terminla for the time. Save $$ on motel.

OO sends the crew to the hotel. Most of the airports that have standups close overnight so the crews can't stay at the airport.
 
TWA902fly
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:06 am

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 12):
Do they actually go to a hotel, or hang at airport? I heard that other lnes that do this the crew just sits at terminla for the time. Save $$ on motel.

Just a thought...

Currently the summer schedule shows

dep DEN 2036 arr YMM 2339 (3h03m flight time)
dep YMM 0550 arr DEN 0900 (3h10m flight time)

Given what people are saying about the Skywest crews essentially taking a short nap at the hotel in YMM, and also given YMM's very unique market and very limited service options to the US, would a schedule something like the following make more sense from an operational standpoint?

dep DEN 2230 arr UMM 0133 (3h03m flight time)
dep YMM 0213 arr DEN 0523 (3h10m flight time)

I understand those times are inconvenient, but given the very limited choices, I imagine UA wouldn't lose many passengers or revenue on this flight.

The positive are of course

+Better aircraft utilization
+no need to pay for crew hotel

The flight would connect to UA@DEN's last bank outbound to YMM, and the first morning bank inbound from YMM.

Any thoughts on this, I'd appreciate to hear.

'902
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yeginleduc
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:13 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 11):
Strangely from YLW there's service to LAX, but from YYJ there's service to SFO.

Must be a difference in the O/D numbers.

That's why I find the YLWLAX kinda oddball. It goes over SFO and sorta DEN that are both much bigger UA hubs.

Only thing I can think of was YLW was offering an incentive for a flight to LAX and UA bit at the incentive package.
 
opethfan
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:39 am

Quoting yeginleduc (Reply 15):

Your quote is miscredited.
 
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mayor
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:45 pm

Quoting durangomac (Reply 13):
Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 12):Do they actually go to a hotel, or hang at airport? I heard that other lnes that do this the crew just sits at terminla for the time. Save $$ on motel.

OO sends the crew to the hotel. Most of the airports that have standups close overnight so the crews can't stay at the airport.

I have heard my daughter use that term before and, actually, she bids for "standups" so that she's not away from the kids for very long. I was sure that she wasn't spending a day and a half at YMM.
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COSPN
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:13 pm

YMM closes overnight right ???
 
point2point
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:53 pm

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 14):

dep DEN 2230 arr UMM 0133 (3h03m flight time)
dep YMM 0213 arr DEN 0523 (3h10m flight time)

I understand those times are inconvenient, but given the very limited choices, I imagine UA wouldn't lose many passengers or revenue on this flight.


This appears to be much better scheduling.

I would just wonder what there is in the DEN morning bank that could be attractive to YMM pax, and maybe this same destination/connect is present at the DEN evening bank? There probably are some UA destinations present that only depart DEN with the morning bank and return in the evening bank......

If UA reschedules this, maybe UA could be missing out on some connect pax? And with the yield UA gets on the DEN-YMM segment, any connect at DEN wouldn't dilute a connect yield too much.

 
 
Viscount724
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:11 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 9):
As for YMM, the metro area there (if one could even call it that) has just about 63K people

It's more than that. Excerpt from following Chamber of Commerce page:
http://www.fortmcmurraychamber.ca/demographics.html

Population: 76,797- city and 104,338 - Municipality

Quoting COSPN (Reply 18):
YMM closes overnight right ???

Don't think so. The tower closes at night as at many airports.
 
point2point
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:33 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
Population: 76,797- city and 104,338 - Municipality

Wow! That must be quite a jump, since I got my numbers from Wiki (they can be pretty accurate for stuff like this) and these are 2011 numbers..... so the area has almost doubled in basically the last two years?

Even so, the higher numbers could even assure more success for the UA YMM-DEN flight. Maybe with this many people now, UA will add a second daily flight?

 
 
threepoint
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RE: How Is UA YMM-DEN Doing?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:51 pm

Quoting yeginleduc (Reply 15):
That's why I find the YLWLAX kinda oddball. It goes over SFO and sorta DEN that are both much bigger UA hubs.

It's not oddball. People using that flight from Kelowna want to fly to the LA area. They don't want to connect elsewhere, hence no need to serve a hub. Once there is sufficient traffic to justify service to a UA hub from YLW, I'm sure somebody will introduce it. In the meantime, valley residents can opt to connect to the world via YVR, YYZ, YYC, SEA etc.
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