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takeorf
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AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:43 am

When flying into GIG from JFK on AA973 yesterday morning, I noticed a metal rod that came loose near the flaps.

When the flaps came up, the rod caught in between them and bent and cracked the top part of the flaps.

Sorry for the sideways pics, I tried rotating them before uploading but they keep staying that way.
I showed the captain the pictures when I was getting off and he showed the other pilots. He thanked me and said that he would make sure it was checked out before it flew again. I noticed that the MIA departure later that night was cancelled. (AA904 on 3/5) Does anybody know what may have happened and if that was the same aircraft scheduled to fly the MIA flight?
 
rwy04lga
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:29 am

Thanks for noticing that and alerting the crew. I'm not sure that would've been spotted on the preflight walkaround.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
mhkansan
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:20 am

How does that get fixed? Are they able to replace the rod only and then speed tape that crack in the flap for the flight home or would they replace that whole assembly with the contractor in GIG? That's pretty heavy work for a contractor to be prepared for.
 
baqnav
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:29 am

I flew on DL 60 last night from GIG-ATL, enroute to DCA. The DL agent mentioned that the AA flight to MIA had a technical cnx. Also, a friend who was on AA 250, GIG-DFW, enroute to MKE, said the lines for all cabins were long (due to the cnx). We shared a car from cococabana beach to GIG but I beat him through the check in process as a result of this cnx. Also, I saw the AA 763 on a remote pad with flaps fully extended, portable steps and external AC connected.
My opions are mine, not my employers
 
737tdi
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:33 am

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 2):

Looks like a flap R &R to me to probably including the aft. flap as well. That rod is what actuates the aft. flap.
 
icelandair75w
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:40 am

Looks actually like the flap actuator (don't know the tech term for it, gear rod that drives them up and down). Saw something similar which required a faulty gear to be replaced. After that it will need to go through some cycles of flaps up / down for correct sequencing.

I do assume that the cracked portion can be temporarily be patched so they could dispatch the aircraft for a sector to a hub that can better fix the unit.
 
PhilBy
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:21 am

And who was using electronic devices during landing? 



I never did work out how I was supposed to turn my (electronic) watch off for take-off and landing. Perhaps unscrew the back and take the battery out!
 
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teme82
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:59 am

Quoting icelandair75w (Reply 5):
Looks actually like the flap actuator (don't know the tech term for it

You can see it in the first picture. The second one on the right side is ok the left one is the one that is gotten lose.
Flying high and low
 
tootallsd
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:07 am

We were booked on AA250 -- in fact first in line to the counter. They delayed opening the counters. We were first offered a series of options: transfer to DL with downgrade in cabin, re-route to Sao Paolo on TAM to join an AA flight to Miami. Our agent disappeared for five minutes and while he was gone, another agent came over shouting PARE to the other agents -- no one had actually been checked in. AA250 was cancelled when we started the check in process but the decision to cancel Miami and use the equipment to Dallas was apparently very last minute.
 
ozark1
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:41 am

It was outstanding of you to show the flight crew those pictures. You could have also relayed the info to the flight attendants. One day I was working a flight into PSP with a very light load and sitting in a pax seat near the back until just prior to touchdown when I ran back to my jumpseat. Just prior to me doing so, when the flaps were lowered, a huge long strip of metal flew off the wing. This was a 727. We've always been trained to, no matter when, interrupt the cockpit to tell them if we see anything. So right after we landed they walked back under the wing with me and I showed them where it had come from. They were extremely appreciatve. When in doubt, check it out!!
 
Skyguy
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:35 pm

Kudos to the OP for taking the picture (inspite of the no electronic devices switched on rule   ) and making an effort to show this to the flight crew. Very responsible thing to do, who knows what unfortunate event this may have prevented had it not been discovered, AA should be very grateful to the OP for being vigilant.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
aajfksjubklyn
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:39 pm

Another reason why I am baffled as to why raising your window shades upon landing is not enforced on flights any longer in the US. I believe this is so important, otherwise things like this go unnoticed.
 
744lover
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:56 pm

Quoting Skyguy (Reply 10):
(inspite of the no electronic devices switched on rule   )
Quoting PhilBy (Reply 6):
And who was using electronic devices during landing? 

Just for everyone's information: the no electronic policy has been relaxed since last November. You're now allowed to use small PEDs (personal electronic devices - cameras, music players, recorders, etc...) throughout the flight. Heavier items like notebooks must still be put away for takeoff and landing.


BR,
744lover
 
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DocLightning
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:15 pm

Quoting 744lover (Reply 12):
Just for everyone's information: the no electronic policy has been relaxed since last November. You're now allowed to use small PEDs (personal electronic devices - cameras, music players, recorders, etc...) throughout the flight. Heavier items like notebooks must still be put away for takeoff and landing.

Is that true in Brazil as well? I know the US was the first to relax that rule and that was only very recently.

Anyway, we all are well aware that electronic devices do not crash planes or sink ships. People were being facetious.

It looks as the aft portion of the proximal flap segment (sorry, I don't know the aeronautical term, so I'm using the medical term) is bent. Is it possible to "bang this out" at GIG or will a new flap segment need to be flown in?

It is a testament to how well airliners are built that the flap functioned normally in spite of this failure.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
baqnav
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:24 pm

You cannot have electronic devices on in Brazil as of Wednesday night when I flew on DL 60 GIG-ATL
My opions are mine, not my employers
 
Piedmont727
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:15 pm

Great thing from the OP who knows what would have happens if this parts break went un-noticed
 
hivue
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:02 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
sorry, I don't know the aeronautical term

Inboard?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
hh65man
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:13 pm

Flap actuator control rod would be very close close to the proper nomenclature for this part. If in fact it was/is connected to a actuator. I think I would have been pushing the FA call button pronto when I saw that.......
 
ubeema
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:16 pm

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 11):

I am with you on this. Don't understand why so many PAX still choose not raise shades during takeoff/landing. AA should praise the OP for the heroic action.
 
EXMEMWIDGET
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:06 pm

Great catch OP!!! It never hurst to have an extra set of eyes checking things out.
Ex DL and NW, current FX.
 
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glideslope
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:28 pm

Kudos to the OP. We need more PAX like you.   
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
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DocLightning
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:13 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 16):
Inboard?

That implies more towards the center of the aircraft. This is just more toward the axis of the wing.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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sassiciai
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:57 pm

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 11):
Another reason why I am baffled as to why raising your window shades upon landing is not enforced on flights any longer in the US.

Really?

Here in Europe, and in my experiences flying between Europe and SE Asia, all airlines (from SIA thru easyjet/Ryanair/AirAsia) are very strict on raised window shades for arrival. This is an important aspect for crash recovery, as it allows rescue personnel from outside the aircraft to look in, and to have some ability to assess the situation inside. It also most evidently allows light into the interior, where passengers reacting to a crash and trying to evacuate when all on-board lighting has failed may benefit from any external light!

If US airlines are falling down on enforcing this, what does this tell us about their level of safety consciousness?
 
AR385
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:10 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 22):
It also most evidently allows light into the interior, where passengers reacting to a crash and trying to evacuate when all on-board lighting has failed may benefit from any external light!

It also allows passengers to get their eyes used to the ambient light in case light fails. That is why on night ops they turn all cabin lights off.
 
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ssteve
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:12 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 22):
If US airlines are falling down on enforcing this, what does this tell us about their level of safety consciousness?

That it's not required by a regulator.
 
packersfan
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:17 am

One the more annoying aspects of fellow travellers is when they sit on window seats and just keep the shades down for the entire flight. Quite sad really. Well called OP.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:20 am

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 22):
If US airlines are falling down on enforcing this, what does this tell us about their level of safety consciousness?

As a matter of fact, Hawaiian (HA) strictly enforces this on each and every flight.
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
LipeGIG
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:24 am

Quoting tootallsd (Reply 8):
We were booked on AA250 -- in fact first in line to the counter. They delayed opening the counters. We were first offered a series of options: transfer to DL with downgrade in cabin, re-route to Sao Paolo on TAM to join an AA flight to Miami. Our agent disappeared for five minutes and while he was gone, another agent came over shouting PARE to the other agents -- no one had actually been checked in. AA250 was cancelled when we started the check in process but the decision to cancel Miami and use the equipment to Dallas was apparently very last minute.

Probably because there were two flights to MIA (AA990 and AA904). AA decided to cancel one and tried to accommodate as much as they can on the same day flights or the following day.

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 6):
And who was using electronic devices during landing?

When it comes to the aviation safety, using for a reason like this shall be recommended
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
spacecadet
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:35 am

So... I've waded through a bunch of OT posts and haven't seen much about this incident itself. Do we know what this actually was? It looks like the flaps were actually working - what effect would this broken part have actually had if it wasn't noticed? And assuming a passenger didn't bring it to the captain's attention, how/when would it likely be noticed?
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
LipeGIG
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:06 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 28):
So... I've waded through a bunch of OT posts and haven't seen much about this incident itself. Do we know what this actually was? It looks like the flaps were actually working - what effect would this broken part have actually had if it wasn't noticed? And assuming a passenger didn't bring it to the captain's attention, how/when would it likely be noticed?

I'm not a pilot but probably it would cause some sort of vibration during take off, if not noticed. Also, it could in the take off position it may raise some warning in regards to "not being ready" as it would prevent the correct position to be reached.
A pilot would have a better view, knowing the type of warnings the 763 offers.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
PhilBy
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:00 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 28):
It looks like the flaps were actually working - what effect would this broken part have actually had if it wasn't noticed?

None unless there was a subsequent failure of it's redundant partner. There are few mechanisms that are not redundant.

There would be no automatic warning of failure of a mechnical link like this. It's not instrumented.

There is a warning if the flaps are not in the demanded positions and in the event of non-deployment of one, the others stay closed (on airbus at least). The last thing you want is an ac with assymetric flap deployment.
 
dynamicsguy
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:11 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 28):
Do we know what this actually was?

It looks like there is an inboard support for the aft element of the inboard flaps, and based on this video that support is a dropped hinge attached to the forward flap element. The inboard support for the forward flap element is inside the belly fairing. From that video there also appears to be an actuation link to deploy and stow the aft element of the flap at a second location other than the main support.

This makes sense for 2 reasons. The first is that without it the aft element would wind up (or twist along its length) under load, requiring it to be very stiff to avoid deforming too much. The second is that Boeing designs flaps as fail safe structures (in addition to being damage tolerant), so a second means of deploying the aft element (or at least something to prevent it rotating if the first failed) would be included in the design.

Now, you have to make that inboard actuation work somehow, so it would not be surprising for it to be driven by a torque tube from the main (outboard) support. Note that all trailing edge flaps are mechanically linked and powered by the one power drive unit (per the Boeing 767 Systems Review on Smart Cockpit). The protruding rod looks like it's about the right length and in the right location that it could be a torque tube to link the outboard support mechanism to the inboard support mechanism.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 28):
It looks like the flaps were actually working - what effect would this broken part have actually had if it wasn't noticed?

If I'm correct, it wouldn't prevent the aft element from retracting since it would still be driven at the outboard end. The damage to the flaps would not cause them to break. The aft element would have been analysed assuming that failure (a disconnected actuator is a failure which the part must be good for according to the FARs). The damage to the forward flap element is aft of its rear spar, so in a non-structural portion.

What I couldn't speculate on is how they would have accounted for the rod flapping around like that. I am a little surprised that there doesn't seem to be a designed-in means of catching it if one or other end failed.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 28):
And assuming a passenger didn't bring it to the captain's attention, how/when would it likely be noticed?

I don't know this one. If there was an actuation failure on the main flap element this would definitely be annunciated on the flight deck. It may or may not be the case for the aft element.
 
by738
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:29 pm

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 31):
he main flap element this would definitely be annunciated on the flight deck

You always hear about flap assymmetry warnings so maybe that would be how it would be highlighted, otherwise Im not sure how it would highlight itself
 
dynamicsguy
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:37 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 32):
You always hear about flap assymmetry warnings so maybe that would be how it would be highlighted, otherwise Im not sure how it would highlight itself

I've not worked on the 767 so I shouldn't be so definitive. I know the skew of a flap due to a failed actuator would be detected on a 787.
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
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RE: AA Wing Damage After Landing At GIG

Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:50 am

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 31):
I don't know this one. If there was an actuation failure on the main flap element this would definitely be annunciated on the flight deck. It may or may not be the case for the aft element.
Quoting by738 (Reply 32):
You always hear about flap assymmetry warnings so maybe that would be how it would be highlighted, otherwise Im not sure how it would highlight itself
Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 33):

There are no sensors on the aft. flap so there would be no cockpit indication and the only flight deck effect would be if the aft. flap failed to extend. Then there would be yaw force applied. As far as the rod this is not uncommon, if you look at the OPs pic. and enlarge it you will see the rod end is missing, which may mean the aft. flap may have bound up and pulled the rod end. The one flight deck effect that might happen is an airframe vibration if the rod starts bouncing around.

At my company this would be found on the second level of overnight inspection where you have to lower the flaps to do your walkaround inspection.

Flap asymmetry is off of sensors on the main flap carriages and I'm not sure that the 767 has them. I would guess not, asymmetry is probably determined from the flap position transmitters, i.e. 737 classic. I am just speculating on that due to the design timeframe of the 767 v the 737 classic, appx. the same time. I haven't worked on a 767 for many years and do not recall if they have actual asymmetry sensors, even if they did it would not show this unless the main flap was bound up some way by this failure and that is just not possible, just due to the design these rods are designed to fail to prevent a main flap failure. Sacrifice a little to save the whole so to speak.

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