PRAirbus
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:04 pm

Do we know if this AA 763 retrofit involves updating the over head bins in Main Cabin and the RECARO side wall panels?
 
MAH4546
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:34 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 44):
My guess is that AA may want a J seat that allows a configuration holding the already-announced 45, but without sacrificing as much square footage in the cabin so they can pack in more Y seats. Just my guess ...

That will not be the case. The 772 J seat will take up more space than the 77W J seat.
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uberflieger
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:50 pm

The Good   
Excellent Business Class seats with material and color choices creating a contemporary, upscale ambiance.
International Wi-Fi is sweet, very sweet.

The Bad   
Galaxy Tablets are here to stay. The hustle & bustle 1 hour before landing to collect them often cuts down on my sleep.
I really couldn't care less about AVOD, especially in Coach with tiny screens. As a matter of fact I had my worst flight ever on a Lufthansa A380 with the guy behind me hitting the screen and therefore my seat back for 11 hours, but c'mon American, you're putting leather seats with AVOD on A319s for mostly domestic short & medium haul, but not on international flights with 8 plus hours? This is not competitive.

And how about?
Looks like there will only be a small number of Main Cabin Extra (MCE) seats? This one can go both ways, less of a chance for an upgrade, but a small, intimate section between B/C and Y.
Nobody so far has been able to confirm 777 style overhead compartments for Y. I reserve my judgment until the official press release   
And how about not investing in new, weight saving, slim-line seats? This may be the best indication yet the remaining 30 frames also have an expiration date
 
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:54 pm

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 52):
you're putting leather seats with AVOD on A319s for mostly domestic short & medium haul, but not on international flights with 8 plus hours? This is not competitive.

Leather seats on a long-haul plane is never a good idea. Not even the A321s have leather - because they suck for long-haul.

The original plan was that the seats would have custom-designed docking stations for the tablets. They would be flush into the seat, and there would be no hand-out/collection process. To a casual observer, they are just like built-in PTVs, but the user can remove them from the docking station if they wish. I don't know if that plan stuck, but if the plan has stuck, I would argue it's better than built-in IFE.
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oc2dc
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:48 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
In that case, why not keep more of the 763s around?

AA stated it has room to accelerate or slow down 763 retirements depending on their needs. We may very well see some older 763s stick around for a tad bit to replace the pmUS 762s.

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 53):
I don't know if that plan stuck, but if the plan has stuck, I would argue it's better than built-in IFE.

The most frustrating part about the tablet is the fact that it has no flight map. For that very reason, I will have to argue against your idea of it being better than built-in.
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N62NA
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:13 pm

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 54):

The most frustrating part about the tablet is the fact that it has no flight map. For that very reason, I will have to argue against your idea of it being better than built-in.

Yep. That's key.

But... since they'll have international WiFi, then it's possible at least for parts of the flight to login to one of the tracking sites on the web. But my question from earlier is unanswered. When these "new" 763s inevitably find themselves on a domestic run, will the "international" WiFi be turned on?

[Edited 2014-03-09 12:14:43]
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DfwRevolution
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 54):
The most frustrating part about the tablet is the fact that it has no flight map. For that very reason, I will have to argue against your idea of it being better than built-in.

I haven't flown AA in ages, but on Southwest flights with WiFi, the free website will show a moving map with your flight information.
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uberflieger
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 53):
The original plan was that the seats would have custom-designed docking stations for the tablets

If that's the case I'll give it a   

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 53):
Leather seats on a long-haul plane is never a good idea

Totally agree and only mentioned it to highlight the total investment American is making in its domestic short & medium haul Y product. The new A319 is spectacular. The new 767 Y product is not and will remain the worst of the 3 legacies, unless you prefer free wine & beer to United's AVOD  
You're posts are always a great read for behind-the-scenes developments at American. Any idea whether all 30 767s will get the 777 style overhead bins?
 
N1120A
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:47 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 41):
...AC is using the same product as AA is on their new 77Ws....the high density ones.

Yep. Herringbone is kind of a space hog - not to mention it sucks if you like the window.

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 37):
Because they are designing a presumably better one.

That would truly be amazing.

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 51):
That will not be the case. The 772 J seat will take up more space than the 77W J seat.

Making it even more ridiculous, unless they are going really crazy with this seat.
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LAXintl
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:41 pm

Cranky Flier has a story this week on the refreshed 763s including comments from Andrew Nocella SVP and Chief Marketing Officer.

Some highlights:

o More than half the 763 fleet will be gone in about 3-years, so only ~25 frames will get the upgrade. These 25 frames though will only be around for about 5-years themselves.
o US 762 fleet will be kept through summer 2015 to allow for these upgrades be to accelerated.
o 763s will focus more on secondary markets - example given was Brasilia (now a 757 market)
o Still pondering at what to do with Intl 757 fleets.
o Goal (in 5-years) is to have consistent all flat bed international premium product, and AVOD in the back.

http://crankyflier.com/2014/03/11/am...-its-767s-but-only-the-front-half/

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uberflieger
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:17 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 59):

The clues were all there. For an airline focused on becoming an onboard leader to do the absolute minimum investment? The 767s will be long gone and 757s will still be gracing the skies. Can't wait to see the first one painted   
 
justplanenutz
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:22 pm

Thanks--that fills in a lot of the gaps about 767 plans.
 
realsim
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:25 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 59):
o More than half the 763 fleet will be gone in about 3-years, so only ~25 frames will get the upgrade. These 25 frames though will only be around for about 5-years themselves.
o US 762 fleet will be kept through summer 2015 to allow for these upgrades be to accelerated.

This makes sense given that AA will have 42 787s by 2018 that will more than replace the ~33 763s that will not get the new interiors and also replace the 4-6 US 762s without a planned replacement order. However, if they indeed plan to retire all the 763s by 2019, it means that they have delivery slots before 2020 (there are 58 787s options), because they will still need ~20 more aircraft to replace every aircraft without any widebody growth (which is, in my opinion, unlikely, because AA will need those brand new aircraft to expand its TPAC network, and because AA has added a lot of 763 flights recently, like MIA-MXP/CWB/POA). And, if as the article states, they plan to use those 763s to replace some 757 missions, that number of needed options could well exceed 20.
 
uberflieger
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:31 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 62):

When are the first A350s scheduled to join the fleet? I seem to remember 2017?
 
commavia
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:31 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 59):
More than half the 763 fleet will be gone in about 3-years, so only ~25 frames will get the upgrade. These 25 frames though will only be around for about 5-years themselves.

Interesting.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 59):
US 762 fleet will be kept through summer 2015 to allow for these upgrades be to accelerated.

Guess that makes sense. Surprised they still couldn't just get rid of the 762s sooner, though.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 59):
763s will focus more on secondary markets - example given was Brasilia (now a 757 market)

BSB seems like a logical market to upgauge from 752>763.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 59):
Still pondering at what to do with Intl 757 fleets.

I still say park the US JY 757s ASAP and backfill with the nicer AA JY 757s.

Quoting realsim (Reply 62):
This makes sense given that AA will have 42 787s by 2018 that will more than replace the ~33 763s that will not get the new interiors and also replace the 4-6 US 762s without a planned replacement order. However, if they indeed plan to retire all the 763s by 2019, it means that they have delivery slots before 2020 (there are 58 787s options), because they will still need ~20 more aircraft to replace every aircraft without any widebody growth

Don't forget the US A350s on order, too, though. AA has lots of widebodies coming in the next few years.

Quoting realsim (Reply 62):
will need those brand new aircraft to expand its TPAC network, and because AA has added a lot of 763 flights recently, like MIA-MXP/CWB/POA)

AA has added a fair amount of 763 flying in the last few years - like the MIA-MXP and MIA-CWB/POA you mentioned. But AA has also cut a fair amount of 763 flying in the last few years, including LAX-BOS, BOS-CDG, ORD-LAX/SFO, DFW-FRA (back to 777), DFW-EZE (to 777), DFW-MAD (to 777 seasonally), etc. I suspect there's already some slack in the 763 fleet, net of any maintenance issues that may still be ongoing with that fleet.
 
USAirALB
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:36 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 64):

I still say park the US JY 757s ASAP

The US ETOPS 757 East fleet are some of the newest 757s in the skies. Most were delivered in the late 1990s, and aren't a bad ride. The US ETOPS 757 West fleet though, needs to go ASAP.
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realsim
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:19 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 64):
Guess that makes sense. Surprised they still couldn't just get rid of the 762s sooner, though.

This year it's impossible unless the cancel all the TATL expansion announced for this summer ex CLT, which they won't given that it was announced by L-US just before the merger was closed. US is getting 3 A332s to replace another 3 762s this year, and the last one is due next year. This will leave another 6 762s without any replacement, and I believe they will be able to retire almost all of them given that CLT-GIG will be axed (2 frames), and the other 4 could be easily removed if flights to FRA are reduced to 1 daily and some of the European expansion ex CLT doesn't come back next summer.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 65):
The US ETOPS 757 East fleet are some of the newest 757s in the skies. Most were delivered in the late 1990s, and aren't a bad ride. The US ETOPS 757 West fleet though, needs to go ASAP.
AA is going to have plenty of 752s with winglets to replace the older US birds. In fact, most of the already retired L-AA 752s are newer that the 5 ex Republic ones without winglets that are used for PHX-HI flights. However, of course, if AA wants to replace the 8 L-US west ETOPS birds, they need to certify more of theirs for ETOPS operations, cause the ones that are being retired are not ETOPS.

[Edited 2014-03-11 12:20:38]
 
AMALH747430
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:32 pm

Hi all. I have been visiting this forum for over a decade and decided it was time to pay up and become a member. This is a topic that has intrigued me for quite some time. I made my first hop across the pond back in the summer of 2005 to attend a study abroad program for law school in Innsbruck, Austria. Back then I was a pretty loyal AA fan so I of course flew AA. On the way over I flew AA 86 ORD-LHR on a 772. The return was AA 79 LGW-DFW on a 763. While I was in Innsbruck AA revealed the new angled lie flat business class seat along with the business class cabin modifications. The difference between the 772 Y cabin and the 763 cabin was striking. Not only were the overhead bins small but the cabin had a dark, dated, worn out feel to it. It made the flight much less enjoyable than the flight over on the 772. When I found out that AA would not modify the Y cabin I thought that was an incredibly short sighted decision. That same summer I flew to SJU and back on AA 752s which had very dated and worn out cabins even back then. The following year I had several other mishaps with AA and eventually switched my loyalty to DL which I was very impressed with. I then moved from SAT to AMA in 2008 where DL was not an option so I switched to CO and I continue to fly UA as a Premier.

I switched my loyalty from AA because I felt their overall product was inconsistent and lagged behind their competitors. I realize that it took DL time to modify their 763 fleet but when they did they updated the whole aircraft. PMUA had some dated aircraft but it seems that since the merger when they have updated aircraft they do the whole aircraft. Even then DL and UAs 752s never felt as dated as AAs. When the merger was announced I thought the new AA had turned a corner. I thought that the new management recognized the mistakes AA had made in the past and was going to do things differently. However, this decision seems like the same old AA. I could see not touching the 763s that fly lower yielding routes. However, if AA is going to go to modify them with a premium business class product they should modify the whole plane. I flew on a UA 764 IAD-MUC in June of 2013. The difference that the refreshed overhead bins make is striking. I actually preferred it to the CO 772s I have flown on.

Bottom line: AA has alot of potential. I hope the new AA management can return AA to what it used to be. This looks like a step in the wrong direction.
 
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N62NA
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:39 pm

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 68):
if AA is going to go to modify them with a premium business class product they should modify the whole plane.

I would agree - IF they were planning on keeping them around for 7 or more years. But since they're not, I can see why they aren't doing real upgrades in the Y cabin on these.
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commavia
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:17 pm

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 68):
When I found out that AA would not modify the Y cabin I thought that was an incredibly short sighted decision.

It was a short sighted decision, I agree, as at that time those 767s still had another decade or more of flying left in them.

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 68):
Even then DL and UAs 752s never felt as dated as AAs.

I'm not so sure. I'll give you Delta's 757s, but I've been on United 757s that didn't look any nice - and indeed much worse - than most of the AA 757s I've been on. In particular, the subfleet of 20 AA 757s that fly longhaul look nice inside.

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 68):
When the merger was announced I thought the new AA had turned a corner. I thought that the new management recognized the mistakes AA had made in the past and was going to do things differently. However, this decision seems like the same old AA.

It's not about "new AA" or "same old AA." It's as simple as net present value. AA - new or "same old" - has obviously concluded that the discounted present value of the future incremental revenue that could be generated from nicer cabins on these 763s will not cover the present value of the cost of the upgrade. Given the apparently-short remaining service life of these jets, I suspect that calculus is right. It's hard to earn back what probably amounts to several million per jet in cost if the plane is only going to be flying for another five years. Not to mention, especially in Y, it's doubtful AA would really be able to generate all that much incremental revenue from more substantial upgrades. Put another way: is AA going to be able to charge more for seats on the 763s as a result of having a nicer cabin? On a sustained, broad basis, I suspect the answer is clearly no.

What Delta has done to its 763s is quite nice, but Delta also apparently plans on keeping those 763s, in larger numbers, for longer than AA.

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 68):
I could see not touching the 763s that fly lower yielding routes. However, if AA is going to go to modify them with a premium business class product they should modify the whole plane.
Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 68):
Bottom line: AA has alot of potential. I hope the new AA management can return AA to what it used to be. This looks like a step in the wrong direction.

Again - it's a business decision. If the extra cost is never going to be recouped in the form of extra revenue - especially in Y, and especially over the relatively short time horizon apparently in question here - then why spend the money? Besides, this going to become less and less of an issue anyway, since the proportion of AA's longhaul fleet made up of 763s is going to be getting progressively smaller in the next few years as more 777s, 787s and A350s arrive - all with more modern amenities.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 69):
I would agree - IF they were planning on keeping them around for 7 or more years. But since they're not, I can see why they aren't doing real upgrades in the Y cabin on these.

  

The time to have spent serious cash investing in upgrading the 763s was a decade ago when they ripped out F and standardized the fleet on a single configuration. At that time, with those jets still having well over 10 years of flying life left in them, it would have been more financially justifiable to make some of the same upgrades Delta is now making. Unfortunately, at that time, AA didn't have the money to spend. And again, either way, the point is now largely moot, as these jets will be leaving progressively over the coming years, anyway.
 
qqflyboy
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:20 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 59):
More than half the 763 fleet will be gone in about 3-years, so only ~25 frames will get the upgrade. These 25 frames though will only be around for about 5-years themselves.

This is a change from the previous fleet plan announced last year, where 763 a/c were in the fleet at least through 2020. Since AA is not going to update the a/c any further, the quicker the 763 goes the better. We all know the product is already woefully outdated -- by at least a decade and a half (in the main cabin anyway). Another five years of this is simply unacceptable. Had AA made the investment when they should have, they wouldn't be in this situation now.

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 68):
I thought that the new management recognized the mistakes AA had made in the past and was going to do things differently. However, this decision seems like the same old AA.

It was the previous AA management team who came up with this (yet again) half-assed idea. The new team hasn't been in place long enough to change it, but I'm not sure the US team would have done any better owing to the complete lack of IFE on their A32X a/c, especially since those a/c used to have IFE.

It still boggles the mind the new A32Xs/738s arriving at AA have nose to tail AVOD, and yet the 763, flying 10+ hour routes, doesn't. New AA? Not so much.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
MAH4546
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:00 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 70):
In particular, the subfleet of 20 AA 757s that fly longhaul look nice inside.

So does almost the entire AA 757 fleet - very few are left with the old interior, most have the new interior that the 75Ls have, only difference being the seats up front.
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DocLightning
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:24 pm

Looks as if the center overhead bins are going to be omitted in this Boeing Signature overhead. Makes sense. Two side bins per row with 4 pax per row should be plenty, especially since the seats have some storage space, as well.
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N1120A
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:52 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 72):
So does almost the entire AA 757 fleet - very few are left with the old interior, most have the new interior that the 75Ls have, only difference being the seats up front.

Yeah, are they any Eisenhower interiors still flying?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 73):
Looks as if the center overhead bins are going to be omitted in this Boeing Signature overhead. Makes sense. Two side bins per row with 4 pax per row should be plenty, especially since the seats have some storage space, as well.

Ooof. Its always a bad idea to dump the center overheads.
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DocLightning
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:26 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 73):
Ooof. Its always a bad idea to dump the center overheads.

Why? If there is already plenty of storage, why carry the extra weight?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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AMALH747430
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:01 pm

I don't recall the 777 style center overhead bins hanging down very low when they were closed on the UA 764s I have been on. However, from what I remember all AA 763s have the 777 style bins at least through the forward Y cabin. Does this mean they will remove them when the new seats are installed? It would seem to be a wast of money to remove them if they are already there and do not obstruct much when they are closed???
 
ThePinnacleKid
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:22 pm

"Other elements of the Boeing 767-300ER retrofit project include the installation of new LCD drop-down monitors, new digital audio systems, refreshed lavatories, and new seat covers and cushions in the Main Cabin.

Every passenger in the Business Class cabin on American’s retrofitted Boeing 767-300ERs has direct aisle access.

Each retrofitted 767-300ER will also be outfitted with international Wi-Fi; in-seat entertainment; and Main Cabin Extra seating, which provides more legroom for economy-class passengers willing to pay a premium over economy-class prices."



Guys, the plane is on the way out!!! They're doing a lot to improve the product in all cabins.. just Biz gets the most attention and well, is the appropriate place to spend money on a cabin refit when the plane is already on a phase out plan.

If you didn't notice, yeah, it won't get AVOD... but the entire Main Cabin is getting new LCD screens, new audio, refurb. lavs, new seat covers, AND will have International Wi-Fi... so no, you won't get a personal TV... You still will get Wi-Fi! Sheesh... and it's a plane that is going to be relinquished to second tier cities as it's moved out of service.... Cut American some slack! I think this is an amazing product and in line with a lot of good changes AA is making.... especially in light it isn't flying much longer. The alternative and smart financial book choice would have been to do nothing at all.
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qqflyboy
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:57 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 72):
Looks as if the center overhead bins are going to be omitted in this Boeing Signature overhead. Makes sense. Two side bins per row with 4 pax per row should be plenty, especially since the seats have some storage space, as well.

There won't be any changes to the overhead bins in this refurb. The centerline bins on the 763 in J-class will remain, however useless they are.  
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
boilerla
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:15 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 59):
Goal (in 5-years) is to have consistent all flat bed international premium product, and AVOD in the back.

Ouch. All flat bed international....5 years down the road? UA is there now, and DL is almost there. Five years is a long time to play angled bed roulette.
 
OB1504
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:17 am

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 76):
If you didn't notice, yeah, it won't get AVOD... but the entire Main Cabin is getting new LCD screens, new audio, refurb. lavs, new seat covers, AND will have International Wi-Fi... so no, you won't get a personal TV... You still will get Wi-Fi! Sheesh... and it's a plane that is going to be relinquished to second tier cities as it's moved out of service.... Cut American some slack!

Will they be putting power outlets in the Main Cabin? The Wi-Fi isn't of much use if the personal electronic device is dead.
 
JoePatroni707
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:13 am

We got a notification on the printer today about an aircraft "reconfiguration" notice this afternoon. Looks like N350 will be the first one to get the new seats. Whats somewhat confusing is in this notice it stated that the new configuration will be 32F 177Y which is not what the original plan was in this article. Perhaps the notice was a typo? Not sure, should be in JETSA tomorrow.
 
9w748capt
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RE: American Unveils New 767 Business Class

Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:41 am

I've always liked the 767 - even in Y you're never more than a seat from the aisle. Wide enough but not "dreaded middle seat" wide. No doubt these birds will be plying Hawaii routes and the like - which really - I'm looking forward to hopefully scoring an upgrade or two. Y will continue to suck, but what can you do.

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Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos