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holzmann
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What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:19 am

I requested a 12th level room with a view of LAX runway 25R. I swear 70-80% of the AC I see (and hear) departing and arriving, no matter morning, noon, or night, are 752 and 753 AC. What will LAX do without it? What will airlines do without it? From my vantage point it is THE workhorse doing the heavy lifting here.
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MesaFlyGuy
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:27 am

Quoting holzmann (Thread starter):
What will LAX do without it? What will airlines do without it? From my vantage point it is THE workhorse doing the heavy lifting here.

Well AA will replace them with a321s, UA with 739s and other various narrowbodies like they have been, DL (IF that day eventually comes   ) will have the 739s, a321s, 767s (if those aren't gone yet), and other narrowbodies.

Bottom line, LAX will be just fine when the 757 is gone and we'll be having the same discussion about the 737s  
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:33 am

Lax will continue to operate like every other airport around the world that doesn't see the 757  
 
acabgd
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:37 am

Still can't believe Boeing decided to stop 757 production and destroy the tooling. With updated engines and sharklets/scimitar wingtips this would still be a very, very profitable aircraft and cockpit commonality with 767 would still play a role.

Well, there's still no time machine invented so we can only moan about it now. Still, I'm glad I should be flying on a 757 next week. Haven't done that for quite a while as they're becoming scarce in Europe.
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:38 am

Out of curiosity, which hotel was that?
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:48 am

Quoting acabgd (Reply 3):
Still can't believe Boeing decided to stop 757 production and destroy the tooling. With updated engines and sharklets/scimitar wingtips this would still be a very, very profitable aircraft and cockpit commonality with 767 would still play a role.

        

It's too heavy for most of what it does, and new engines wouldn't change that.

757s will still be at LAX for a long time. The 757-300s will be around for at least another decade, probably more. The 757-200s will gradually be replaced by various 737 and A320 variants, although some of the Hawaii flights will have to wait for the neo and MAX to be available.
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:53 am

Quoting rentonview (Reply 4):
Out of curiosity, which hotel was that?

Im guessing Hilton LAX. I stayed there many times before.
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atcsundevil
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:45 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 5):
It's too heavy for most of what it does, and new engines wouldn't change that.

Bingo. Only a fool would question the 757s abilities or the fact that it is an incredible aircraft, but it is most assuredly outdated. New engines and design components can't make the aircraft competitive enough with the 739 or 321 on most sectors.

The 752 is capable of a wide range of missions and doing them profitably, but on many of them, it's just too much airplane. The 739 and 321 do *nearly* everything the 752 can and then some, apart from long haul routes (particularly TATL), which is really the only thing that makes the 752 a unique airplane. The NEO and MAX will come a little closer to closing the gap, but the only gaps left open with the 752's withdraw are niche routes.

None of that really applies to LAX, but rather to EWR, PHL, and the like, because they are hubs significantly supported with thin TATL routes with the 752. LAX will do just fine with more modern, more appropriately designed aircraft for the missions they'll be tasked with, because pretty much everything currently operated from LAX with a 752 can be easily replaced by a 739/321 and flown more profitably.

I will miss turning left though....
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:04 pm

LAX will do fine after the 757 goes, just like it did after the 707.

I love the overpowered stick insect as much as the next guy, but the sun is beginning to set for it.
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:42 pm

Quoting holzmann (Thread starter):
What will LAX do without it? What will airlines do without it?

What are you expecting will happen?
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:35 pm

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 7):
New engines and design components can't make the aircraft competitive enough with the 739 or 321 on most sectors.

I must admit I don't understand this. If 737 was updated from -200 series and became competitive, why do you think the same could not have been done with the 757?

New engines with drastically increased fuel efficiency, new or at least improved wing, with the rest of the fuselage staying more/less the same. New interiors with new, lighter materials, lighter seats etc... What's not to like there?
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:45 pm

Quoting acabgd (Reply 10):
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 7):
New engines and design components can't make the aircraft competitive enough with the 739 or 321 on most sectors.

I must admit I don't understand this. If 737 was updated from -200 series and became competitive, why do you think the same could not have been done with the 757?

New engines with drastically increased fuel efficiency, new or at least improved wing, with the rest of the fuselage staying more/less the same. New interiors with new, lighter materials, lighter seats etc... What's not to like there?

Demand would not have been high enough to justify the development costs, and it would still have been too heavy. Boeing had a lot of other projects on their plate that were almost guaranteed to be a more profitable use of their resources than investing many millions in updating an aircraft with an uncertain and probably rather low demand, compared to their flood of orders for their other models.
 
e38
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:54 pm

Quoting the title of this thread, "What Will LAX Do Without The 757? "

I guess it will just have to close  

Seriously, I had to chuckle when I read the heading of this topic because I imagined that if Airliners.net had been around 30 or 35 years ago, the title of the thread would have been, "What Will LAX Do Without the Boeing 707 and Douglas DC-8?"

and . . . before that, it would have asked, "What Will LAX Do Without the DC-7 and Constellation?"

quoting holzmann, "it is THE workhorse doing the heavy lifting here."

So were those aircraft in their day.


interesting how things change!

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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:32 pm

You can see that on the United side you see a lot more 739 than before replacing the 757 routes. Slowly but surely the change is more evident.
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:08 am

Quoting acabgd (Reply 10):
I must admit I don't understand this.

The key to correcting your lack of understanding is to learn the relationship between weight and fuel burn and landing fees. As was explained earlier in the thread, new engines and new wingtip treatments won't make the plane lighter. Interior weight reductions won't amount to any signficant overall weight reductions. In fact they may be completely offset by larger diameter engines, which invariably weigh more than the smaller diameter engines they replace.

Here's an exerise for you: compare the range-payload chart of the A321-NEO to the 752. The compare their operating empty weights and their fuel burns and you'll see why every airline will gleefully replace the 752 with the A321-NEO except for a very small percentage of missions. When a poster above described the 752 as "too much airplane" what they meant was that it weighs far too much for the payload it usually carries over the range it usually flies.
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:13 am

Quoting acabgd (Reply 10):
If 737 was updated from -200 series and became competitive, why do you think the same could not have been done with the 757?

Because the airlines wanted 737s instead - unfortunately.
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:22 am

I'm sure that AA, DL, and UA will continue sending 757s to HNL and the smaller Hawaiian islands for a long time to come.
 
Fixinthe757
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:29 am

This is what FedEx does with them when they get them!
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:12 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 6):
Quoting rentonview (Reply 4):Out of curiosity, which hotel was that?

I'm guessing Hilton LAX. I stayed there many times before.

I've had pretty good views from both the the Renaissance and the Sheraton-Gateway.  
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:30 am

Quoting acabgd (Reply 3):
Still can't believe Boeing decided to stop 757 production and destroy the tooling. With updated engines and sharklets/scimitar wingtips this would still be a very, very profitable aircraft and cockpit commonality with 767 would still play a role.

Please.

Do you think Boeing would have cancelled the program if there was money to be made?

People tend to forget that US airlines accounted for over half of the 757s sold. There are entire regions of the world that have never really seen this aircraft.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 7):
I will miss turning left though....

That's funny, I've flown the 757 in F a bunch, and I think the only place I've ever gotten to turn left was HNL. Maybe that's unique to AA though, which is the bulk of my flying.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):

Demand would not have been high enough to justify the development costs, and it would still have been too heavy. Boeing had a lot of other projects on their plate that were almost guaranteed to be a more profitable use of their resources than investing many millions in updating an aircraft with an uncertain and probably rather low demand, compared to their flood of orders for their other models.

Wasn't the 757 line replaced by a second 737 line? I'm sure that has to be more profitable.

Quoting acabgd (Reply 10):
I must admit I don't understand this. If 737 was updated from -200 series and became competitive, why do you think the same could not have been done with the 757?

You're not going to change the overall bulk of the airframe though, it's still "overbuilt" for its mission. Technological advancements will only get you so far.

Quoting homer787 (Reply 16):
I'm sure that AA, DL, and UA will continue sending 757s to HNL and the smaller Hawaiian islands for a long time to come.

That and TATL are probably the last places you will see them. But both the NEO and the MAX should be able to replace that role as well.
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atcsundevil
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:07 am

Quoting acabgd (Reply 10):
I must admit I don't understand this. If 737 was updated from -200 series and became competitive, why do you think the same could not have been done with the 757?

New engines with drastically increased fuel efficiency, new or at least improved wing, with the rest of the fuselage staying more/less the same. New interiors with new, lighter materials, lighter seats etc... What's not to like there?

Believe me, I love the 757, as do many of us here. It's an amazing airplane and I would love for it to grace our skies for as long as the 737 will, but the economics just don't add up. The airplane is capable of so many things, but it's only really good at a few of them. For most of them, the 737-900ER or the A321 can do the exact same thing at a lower cost and generate higher revenues. The 757 simply carries too much weight in its design structure, which can't be changed by a re-engine, new wings, and a smattering of composite materials. The 737/32X will survive because it has a somewhat more limited capability versus the 757, but within that capability it performs much better. The 752 is really only great when it comes to thinner long haul routes, like TATL connecting hubs to secondary markets. The 752 is truly in a class of its own there -- there's no denying that -- but that doesn't allow for the survival of the type.

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 14):
The key to correcting your lack of understanding is to learn the relationship between weight and fuel burn and landing fees. As was explained earlier in the thread, new engines and new wingtip treatments won't make the plane lighter. Interior weight reductions won't amount to any signficant overall weight reductions. In fact they may be completely offset by larger diameter engines, which invariably weigh more than the smaller diameter engines they replace.

Here's an exerise for you: compare the range-payload chart of the A321-NEO to the 752. The compare their operating empty weights and their fuel burns and you'll see why every airline will gleefully replace the 752 with the A321-NEO except for a very small percentage of missions. When a poster above described the 752 as "too much airplane" what they meant was that it weighs far too much for the payload it usually carries over the range it usually flies.

Exactly. You can only put so much lipstick on a pig, even if it is a really good-looking pig!

Quoting 777stl (Reply 19):
That's funny, I've flown the 757 in F a bunch, and I think the only place I've ever gotten to turn left was HNL. Maybe that's unique to AA though, which is the bulk of my flying.

I'm pretty much exclusive to UA and they almost always board from L2. I've been clearly been spoiled, I suppose! It definitely makes getting a predeparture beverage much easier when the kettles aren't lugging the kitchen sink down the aisle through F. It's also nicer not getting whacked in the head by the aforementioned kitchen sink. I know there are risks with bringing the jetway to L2 due to engine clearance (which is why pretty much no one apart from LH does it with the A321, which has way less clearance), but that could be why AA and some others do not do it. UA along with many others typically meet at L2 as standard, though.
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:19 am

Quoting Fixinthe757 (Reply 17):

Great pictures, though sad to see we lost one of those UA 757s. Those were great planes to fly on, very comfortable. Do you have anymore?
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:37 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 21):

Quoting Fixinthe757 (Reply 17):

Great pictures, though sad to see we lost one of those UA 757s. Those were great planes to fly on, very comfortable. Do you have anymore?


More than just one of them! FDX has taken several ex-UA 752s (all pre-merger UA) and will be taking quite a few more over the next couple of years as UA withdraws them from service. It's sad, but it's much better to see them get a second life as a freighter than rot in the desert like so many DL and NW birds at MZJ. That's just plain depressing!
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:41 am

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 22):

Speaking of NW, have their been ANY 757-251s that have moved onto other carriers? Many of those birds have been there for a while, some still in full NWA livery. They don't appear to be derelict and just sitting in storage. What is DL's plan for those and the other 752s there?
 
Fixinthe757
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:29 pm

Actually we've converted several Delta jets already. We have another United , post merger and in new colors, waiting its turn. That one will become 797FD. The one in the pics is formerly 527UA, now 786FD. We are supposed to be getting around 14 total United jets. More pics to come.
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:38 pm

They'll lose passenger count per departure.

With capped gates, unless airlines upguage to widebodies, the overall domestic count will drop as they switch to 321s and 739s. No by much, but they are smaller
 
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scbriml
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:42 pm

How many similar 757 threads does one site need?      
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michman
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:26 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 1):
DL (IF that day eventually comes   ) will have the 739s

Huh? DL has 739's already. I often see DL 739's on DTW-LAX, DTW-SFO, etc.
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:17 pm

Quoting holzmann (Thread starter):
I swear 70-80% of the AC I see (and hear) departing and arriving, no matter morning, noon, or night, are 752 and 753 AC.

Huh? I sit at the proud bird and watch the planes and the 737s and A320s easily outnumber the 757. While AA sees a number, many are providing frequency on trunk routes where there is absolutely no reason an A321 or 739 couldn't replace them. e.g., I've flow 752s LAX-DFW several dozen times. But I watched in 2013 as many of those flights went to the 738s and if needed AA will soon have A321s to re-gauge the flights. .

Heck, I see more RJs at LAX than 757s... The airport will manage.  
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 20):
The airplane is capable of so many things, but it's only really good at a few of them. For most of them, the 737-900ER or the A321 can do the exact same thing at a lower cost and generate higher revenues. The 757 simply carries too much weight in its design structure, which can't be changed by a re-engine, new wings, and a smattering of composite materials.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 26):
How many similar 757 threads does one site need

As aircraft are retired, I've noticed the threads pick up with a peak in thread intensity happening as we approach 50% to 75% of the fleet remaining in service. Since we're down to 81% of the fleet still operating, we can expect the frequency and 'intensity' of 757 threads to increase for the next two to three years.

http://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-b757.htm

Then... we can expect more 'acceptance' as we've seen with the MD-80 fleet. But not until over half the produced fleet has been retired.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 25):
With capped gates, unless airlines upguage to widebodies, the overall domestic count will drop as they switch to 321s and 739s. No by much, but they are smaller

I'm seeing AA MD-80s upgauged to 738s. I expect the RJ up-gauging by DL to have an even greater impact. LAX will remain constraint.

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 14):
Here's an exerise for you: compare the range-payload chart of the A321-NEO to the 752. The compare their operating empty weights and their fuel burns and you'll see why every airline will gleefully replace the 752 with the A321-NEO except for a very small percentage of missions. When a poster above described the 752 as "too much airplane" what they meant was that it weighs far too much for the payload it usually carries over the range it usually flies.

Not to mention the 757 has a *much* higher maintenance burden. A great plane whose time has come.

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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:39 pm

Quoting acabgd (Reply 10):
I must admit I don't understand this. If 737 was updated from -200 series and became competitive, why do you think the same could not have been done with the 757?

New engines with drastically increased fuel efficiency, new or at least improved wing, with the rest of the fuselage staying more/less the same. New interiors with new, lighter materials, lighter seats etc... What's not to like there?

A couple of key points. First, if you compare the 737-200 and today's best-selling 737NG and 737MAX models (-800/900ER, and -8 and -9), the 737 has grown significantly in size over the original 737-100/200. Even the largest pre-NG 737 (the -400) would barely be big enough for the future of the line. Much of the improved efficiency has come from the line growing. The 737-600 was sized right around the 737-200 (maybe the same fuselage length?), and it was the weakest selling of the entire line, and has not been included in the MAX upgrade. Even the MAX-7 (size of the 737-300) is very poor selling).

If the 757 were to get similar treatment, the only model that might make sense, size-wise, is the 757-300 model. The plane doesn't have any more room to grow without getting into widebody territory, and at that point, it's no longer a 757. The much lighter 737 design has been able to grow almost all the way to the size of a 757-200, so what's the point of a 757-200?

Second. You note "new engines with drastically increased fuel efficiency." It has been pointed out many times on here before: what new engine? New engines have been developed in the 737/A320 class because there is a market for many thousands of planes that could use those engines. The market for a new 757 that isn't already covered by 737s from below, or 787s from above, is maybe 100 planes or so. How can one get a good return on investment in such an upgrade (or even one that's a positive number)? If an airline desperately needed a 757-200 replacement for TATL operations, it would probably be cheaper for Boeing to give steep discounts on a new 767 and for the engine manufacturers to give the engines away for free than it would be to spend the development money on redesigning/reengining the 757.
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:01 pm

Quoting michman (Reply 27):
Huh? DL has 739's already. I often see DL 739's on DTW-LAX, DTW-SFO, etc.

I meant if the day ever comes that Delta retires the 757  
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:44 pm

Quoting hoMsAr (Reply 29):
The 737-600 was sized right around the 737-200 (maybe the same fuselage length?)

736 fuselage is the same length as the 735 (97 ft. 9 in.), 10 inches longer than the 732 fuselage (96 ft. 11 in).

736 overall length (102 ft. 6 in.) is 2 ft. 4 in. longer than the 732 (100 ft. 2 in.) and 9 in. longer than the 735 (101 ft. 9 in.) due to the 737NG's much taller tail.
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:32 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 23):
Speaking of NW, have their been ANY 757-251s that have moved onto other carriers? Many of those birds have been there for a while, some still in full NWA livery. They don't appear to be derelict and just sitting in storage. What is DL's plan for those and the other 752s there?

I know there are a few which have been sold to new owners (either as pax or freight versions), but it seems like there are a million of them parked down at MZJ. I haven't flown down there in about two years to get eyes on for myself (the view from I-10 is pretty worthless), but there's been a line of ex-NW 752s parked there in varying numbers for six to eight years or more. It seems like many of them must be such high time/high cycle frames that can't find new owners to get enough efficient life out of them. Many of them seem to be stored, but plenty are in various stages of parting out and/or generally rotting away. What always gets me though is the ever growing number of 747-400s there for parting out -- it just seems wrong!

Many of the ex-NW/DL 752s are stored quite carefully though, and from the recent pictures I've seen, many now are in new DL colors, so they're fairly recent additions. One would assume that they are in the process of seeking new owners, but at the moment, UA seems to be the big winner in terms of selling off many of their frames for freighter conversion. My guess is that the vast majority of those that are stored will simply be parted out in a couple of years, despite the cost and effort involved with the storage process.
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:36 am

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 32):

My guess is that it has to do with age. Many of those DL and NW 757s date from the early '80s. UA's oldest was an '89 build and most of theirs were delivered through the 90s, so quite a bit newer than NW/DL's.
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:37 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 33):

Exactly. I know some of the ex-NW series were pretty damn old. I only wonder why they bother with the expense of storing and maintaining them as opposed to just scrapping them. Perhaps their parts will be worth more in a few years when fewer aircraft are still in service and will require more frequent maintenance? There must be some reason for the expense if they're such high time/cycle that they'll likely never be put back into service.

Most of the 752s UA is retiring now are builds from around 1989-93, I think. Plenty of the mid- and late-90s builds will stick around for a while, particularly the newly fitted p.s. aircraft, some of which are 1989/1990 builds, but I guess are lower time aircraft to make it worth keeping around. I think some of the sCO int'l configs are even as recent as 2000 or 2001, so they'll definitely be around for quite a while longer.

We all know that DL flies their airplanes forever, so I think they'll grace the taxiways of LAX for at least 10-15 more years.
 
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RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 19):
Quoting acabgd (Reply 3):
Still can't believe Boeing decided to stop 757 production and destroy the tooling. With updated engines and sharklets/scimitar wingtips this would still be a very, very profitable aircraft and cockpit commonality with 767 would still play a role.

Please.

Do you think Boeing would have cancelled the program if there was money to be made?

It seems I'm not the only one to make this assumption.

Quote:

“Boeing made a mistake in not coming up with an answer for the 767 and 757 market,” Delta CEO Richard Anderson told Aviation Week in Atlanta. While the A330 and 787 are candidates for part of the 767 missions, “there is no obvious replacement for the 757.”
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/awx_03_11_2014_p0-671113.xml&p=2

I suppose you say your "Please" to Mr. Anderson as well...?
CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
 
Fixinthe757
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:48 am

RE: What Will LAX Do Without The 757?

Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:50 am

Here in Mobile we have former N527UA being converted into N786FD, and next is former N592UA into N797FD. 786 is a late 90 model and 797 is a 96 model. Many more ex United's coming, at least 12 more.

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