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WingBuff
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RE: JAL CFO On A350 Order: "It Was Just Better"

Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:29 pm

I did, and from what I can tell, it's just this particular moment that led JAL to purchase the A350. They didn't want to wait for the 777X to arrive, and that's totally fine. They are restructuring the airline, and Airbus made them a better offer. Good for them. But it in no way means that Boeing has lost one of its clients, and it sure as hell doesn't mean the 777 is 'inferior'.

[Edited 2014-03-10 12:30:09]
 
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Stitch
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RE: JAL CFO On A350 Order: "It Was Just Better"

Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:46 pm

It might be a good idea to separate individual airline situations from a general consensus on how the A350-1000 and 777-9 stack up against each other.

After all, LH ordered the 777-9 and not the A350-1000 and EK has committed to almost six times as many 777-9s as they have A350-1000s.
 
StTim
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RE: JAL CFO On A350 Order: "It Was Just Better"

Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:01 pm

Likewise we could pick BA would at this point have ordered the A350 but not the 777X.

Doesn't mean they won't in the future. There are examples both ways. The Emirates is to me a little moot as the 777X seems to be designed for their needs.
 
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crimsonchin
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RE: JAL CFO On A350 Order: "It Was Just Better"

Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:10 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 51):

So what's that supposed to prove then in regards to the general consensus? That airlines have ordered more 777X than A350?
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: JAL CFO On A350 Order: "It Was Just Better"

Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:14 pm

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 16):
Most planes and engines have problems when entering the market. Rolls-Royce is having issues with the Trent1000 currently and it is costing them dearly but they will soon have the issue sorted and then many years with a good steady income stream. The 787 is the same no more no less.

There's a difference between dispatch reliability due to common equipment failures of newly designed parts, and several high-profile emergency landings and a fire on the ground in a brand-new aircraft, where safety of the passengers was potentially in danger.

Passenger perception of safety makes a HUGE dent on an airlines' bottom line.

If they put all their decision reasons on a pegboard , I wouldn't be surprised if the concerns over the reliability of the 787 aren't somewhere on that board.

1011yyz
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Stitch
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RE: JAL CFO On A350 Order: "It Was Just Better"

Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:31 pm

Quoting CrimsonChin (Reply 53):
So what's that supposed to prove then in regards to the general consensus?

I think the general consensus is that each airline chooses the right plane for their needs and therefore neither the A350 nor the 777X is "inferior" to the other in an overall sense.



Quoting CrimsonChin (Reply 53):
That airlines have ordered more 777X than A350?

In terms of 777-9 to A350-1000, that is the trend for the moment.

In terms of the 777X family to the A350 family, the numbers at the moment favor the Airbus product.



Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 54):
Passenger perception of safety makes a HUGE dent on an airlines' bottom line.

The JL 787-8 that diverted to HNL was at an 86% load factor (160 of 186 seats filled), so passengers seem to think it safe enough.



Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 54):
If they put all their decision reasons on a pegboard , I wouldn't be surprised if the concerns over the reliability of the 787 aren't somewhere on that board.

Well the 777 is a very well-proven airframe, in both general and JAL use, so if they were going on reliability, that should have favored the 777X over the A350 (which, while looking quite reliable in flight test, is still in flight test).
 
starrymarkb
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RE: JAL CFO On A350 Order: "It Was Just Better"

Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:14 pm

Quoting wingbuff (Reply 20):
in Airbuses the pilot for some reason cannot override the computerized plane. Why can't you take full control of an Airbus?

IIRC there are Seven Switches on the overhead panel, one for each of the Flight control systems. Turn them all off and you pretty much have direct control. But the Airbus control limits are set pretty near the limits, you might be able to get a couple of extra degrees of bank out of a Boeing, but you would be right on the edge and a further degree or two could get you into trouble. Airbus use Normal Law for their displays so it seems from recent displays the A350 can be taken to near knife edge banks before the FBW will intervene
 
justloveplanes
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RE: JAL CFO On A350 Order: "It Was Just Better"

Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:09 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):

I continue to find the idea that JAL bought the A350 in whole or in part over the 777X because they wanted to "send a message" to Boeing to be specious. And the idea that they did so knowing the 777X was a better fit for them is, to me, ridiculous.

JAL's marketshare is shrinking and they are downsizing their fleet size and adjusting their plane size to reflect that.

They don't need a 747-size airframe, which eliminated not only the A380-800 and 747-8, but also the 777-9. They don't operate 16-hour segments, so they didn't need the 777-8. And the best replacement for a 9-abreast 777-300ER is the A350-1000.

Like many carriers, JAL has gone 10-abreast on their three-class long-haul 777-200ERs so they need a plane larger than the 787-9. The A350-900 has the extra size to carry the seats and it has range for VLH missions that the 787-10 does not.

This makes the most sense to me. A350 highly capable and was laser targeted at the 777 Market. That market is controlled by Airbus now. 787 targeted at A330 and B767 market, it is now controlled by Boeing. B & A have swapped market leads.
 
astuteman
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RE: JAL CFO On A350 Order: "It Was Just Better"

Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:19 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 55):
In terms of 777-9 to A350-1000, that is the trend for the moment

Well it is for Emirates at least ......

Rgds
 
rheinwaldner
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RE: JAL CFO On A350 Order: "It Was Just Better"

Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:42 am

Quoting wingbuff (Reply 48):
Again, in what way is Boeing's product "inferior"?

It was "inferior" overall, for JAL.

Quoting wingbuff (Reply 48):
JAL has not elaborated on what exactly was "better".

Correct, but the place where their $$$'s are going tells which us was better overall.

Quoting wingbuff (Reply 48):
Better could've been anything

Correct, the whole package was decisive and we don't know single factors. But the point is, that the A350 as offered as a whole package was better for JAL and whatever Boeing offered was inferior.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
brindabella
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RE: JAL CFO On A350 Order: "It Was Just Better"

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:19 pm

Quoting wingbuff (Reply 20):
In Boeings the pilot in an emergency can disengage the autopilot, override and take full manual control of the plane, in Airbuses the pilot for some reason cannot override the computerized plane. Why can't you take full control of an Airbus?



You really wouldn't want to. The "normal law" protections define an envelope well beyond the capabilities of most pilots to fly - that is, if you were outside the "normal law" envelope, you'd be in deep doo-doo.

Also, no matter the propaganda, the Boeing "fly-by-wire" protections are very positive indeed; I couldn't out-wrestle them, despite trying manfully in the 777Sim.

If you read carefully into the (thankfully extremely rare) Airbus accidents,
you will notice that the real trouble tends to occur when the aircraft DEPARTS "normal law".
(At which stage the pilots have full control, dismally.)

FBW protections? Like a lot of brilliant technology, once you experience it. you will never want to go back.

  

cheers Bill
Billy
 
707lvr
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RE: JAL CFO On A350 Order: "It Was Just Better"

Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:28 pm

Then again, "better" sometimes translates in Japanese as "battery."

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