MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

skywaymanaz · Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:47 pm

Quoting cipango (Reply 6):
Agent in KUL that did not spot the stolen passport is being questioned/charged.

I understand questioning but not being an expert on Malaysian law I'm puzzled why he'd be charged. Is there some evidence suggesting he did not run proper checks on the passports that would have revealed them to be stolen? That could be a valid reason to charge as it might indicate complicity with say illegal drug shipments. I am still scratching my head a little trying to figure out why in the 21st century with even a slow dialup modem you couldn't check on things like that when I'm pretty sure you are doing it with their credit cards. That said I could easily believe those tools weren't available to the agent in question.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 60):
You saw that movie, too, huh?

Hey I've got an idea, let's go to Canada and make a really horrible movie. It won't make a dime

Seriously though even with 21st century technology I can see why finding this plane isn't that easy. Even if it had some version of GPS/Satellite tracking if there was a major electrical failure onboard you'd only get the last position before that happened. That could also explain why there was no radio call indicating trouble. I had an electrical system failure once drop me off radar in my small plane. It seriously worried a controller or two before I called in from the ground I was ok. I believe where I landed was 10-15 miles away from the point of failure. With a large jet that radius could be 10 times larger at least. Unfortunately though the passage of time in this case has led me to accept there isn't going to be a positive outcome here but I can see how it might take a few more days to confirm that.

mark2fly1034 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:51 pm

Just to stir the pot or add to it. It has been 48 hours now and they are only searching from where it should of crashed 40 minutes after departure. I am starting to believe they are looking in the wrong place for two reasons. As stated before a pilot said he was in contact with the pilot at 1:30am that would be a little more then an hour into the flight, second nothing has been found in such a shallow area of water. Also as stated above lots of boats would be in that area so why has no boat not in the area seen anything yet? Now what I think we might be looking at is a highjacking or a failure of a component of aircraft that still let them fly but was no able to get them back to land. If it was a highjacking this plane could be almost any where. If it was say the wingtip came off and made the plane uncontrollable again it could be way of the route of flight. The longer this search goes on the more i think they are the wrong spot. Just the way I see it.

lugie · Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 97):
Please excuse me since this question could be, in some way, "politically incorrect", but, how large are in southeast Asia the Italian and Austrian comunities ? I mean, are people with the typical face and look of a chinese or a thai citizen carrying a passaport with a name like "Andrew Bodenhoeffer" or " Vittorio Baschelli "a common sight in the airports?

Rgds.
G.

Nothing impossible, just take a look at the former german vice chancellor, Philipp Rösler . Adopted vietnamese refugee with a completely german name. But I get your point of course, it is not that usual.

Starlionblue · Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:54 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 97):

Please excuse me since this question could be, in some way, "politically incorrect", but, how large are in southeast Asia the Italian and Austrian comunities ? I mean, are people with the typical face and look of a chinese or a thai citizen carrying a passaport with a name like "Andrew Bodenhoeffer" or " Vittorio Baschelli "a common sight in the airports?

There are communities. Not huge. However in this case for all a check-in agent knows, an ethnic Chinese with an Austrian passport might have been adopted as an infant and have an Austrian name. If the person in question does not speak Chinese, or pretend not to, or speak a dialect unknown to the agent, that would just reinforce the cover.

East Asia is more ethnically diverse than Europe and a Malay check-in agent would not expect to know every ethnic wrinkle of his own region, let alone Asians in Europe.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 99):
Pardon my ignorance, but with hundreds of civil and military satellites circling the earth, is there no way images soht from there can be used to locate the crash site?

Maybe, but this assumes a crash site is visible. If the plane sank intact, for example, no orbital optics can help.

Quoting billreid (Reply 100):
Space debris, missiles, alien abductions, bad wing repair - Again it is extremely cold and disrespectful to even suggest/blog any of this might have occurred. While anything is plausible at this point let the experts try to determine what occurred. They know when the last communications occurred. They have the ACARS. They have the radar data. They have the MX records. They have the passenger list. They have so much more than anyone blogging does. I am sure they have a far better ideas than 98% of us.

We speculate here. If you don't want to read speculation, you are free not to view the threads.

Quoting billreid (Reply 100):
Media - I heard one media source state on air that he was following the blog, and was putting together possibilities based on the blog. On that basis we should be extremely careful on what we add, it could end up being used by a less than expert aviation writer.

We cannot be held responsible for what less than clever people "deduce" from our speculation.

Quoting billreid (Reply 100):
I am disturbed with the numerous wrong reports. Aircraft landing in China, distress call to US base and other tid-bits. We need to understand that if we were waiting for loved ones at an airport or somewhere any level of false hope is evil at best.

It is human nature. These speculators are not, as a rule, evil.

denverdanny · Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:55 pm

I'm wondering how many more people will post about the news reporting something has been found by the navy, just awaiting confirmation.

And we already know about the two passports being stolen, ticketed together. Thank you!

And I don't find it unusual this day and age that it takes time to find a crashed craft. It's a large world. We still haven't found aircraft that disappeared in Lake Michigan and the Gulf of Mexico years ago.

Gonzalo · Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 103):
If it was say the wingtip came off and made the plane uncontrollable again it could be way of the route of flight.

I only hope no one in the media outlets industry read that sentence. If one of those "experts" says on his next report something like " wide body jets could became uncontrollable because a wingtip came off", the aviation industry will loose money the next 5 years.

Rgds.
G.

specks159 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 101):
Debris near Tho Chu Island not from MH370: Department of Civil Aviation.

http://news.asiaone.com/news/relax/d...ot-mh370-department-civil-aviation

I believe that is in reference to the yellow object that was discussed earlier. The article states the objects discounted were found by a Singaporean plane, which was the case with the yellow object. The recent somewhat door looking thing was found by a Vietnamese plane.

Flightsimboy · Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
At the 2 hour point in a midnight flight all of the passengers would be asleep,flight attendants would be making routine aisle checks and it would have been a very quiet environment

The incident occurred 40 mins into the flight, where if anything everybody would have been quite alert, perhaps a few who would have decided to sleep right away as it was past midnight Kuala Lumpur local time. As far as the cabin crew were concerned, they would have been busy in the galleys getting ready for the light snack service (if any on this flight). It would have hardly been a very quiet environment. If anything all those on board would have suffered some form of terror from the moment something went wrong (sudden drop in altitude, which is confirmed as happening) or perhaps nothing at all if it was a mid-air explosion.

David L · Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:58 pm

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 103):
As stated before a pilot said he was in contact with the pilot at 1:30am

And that has been dismissed as untrue.

vfw614 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:59 pm

As far as I know, the passports in questions were biometric which cannot be altered like in old movies 30 years ago. How on earth could an Asian have passed for a Caucasian whose biometric data and picture is stored on the biometric passport in a way that is - to the best of my knowledge - almost impossible to forge?

Andy33 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:59 pm

One standard technique for people intending to claim asylum or refugee status is to destroy their passports before approaching immigration in their destination country and claiming asylum. They will be detained while their claim is examined, if the request is rejected they'd ordinarily be deported back to the country they arrived from, but this can't be done if they have no travel documents at all, as they have no way of entering that country either. They can remain in limbo like this indefinitely, unless/until they admit what their actual nationality is, and that country issues temporary documentation so they can travel back. They may be in detention, but a Dutch detention centre is likely to be a lot more comfortable than a third world jail.
Alternatively they may have had further passports that would have been accepted in Amsterdam but ring alarm bells in Kuala Lumpur, so change passports en route.

flyenthu · Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:59 pm

As of now, there are two curious pieces of information related to this flight:

1. The plane turned from its flight path. This is a key piece of information right now until any further development.
2. The two stolen passport issue. I think this is less important than #1. This is more sensational.

The circumstances surrounding this flight looks more and more similar to AF 447 than anything in recent history.

SVJ77W · Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:59 pm

Malaysia launches terror probe over missing plane, debris may be spotted

http://rt.com/news/malaysia-plane-missing-crash-766/

anfromme · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:00 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 99):
As for the fake passengers, surely they would have been detected on arrival at AMS given the fact that the passports were stolen from Schengen zone holders and registered as such. So it is quite safe to assume that they never intended to travel to AMS - but with the European passport, they could not have gotten off the flight at PEK either...

They could have, actually.
There's a 72-hour visa on arrival programme, chiefly to allow transit connections via Chinese airports. It's something not available to Malaysians, but it is available to people holding a passport from the Schengen area.
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/embassy/visa/free-72hour/faq.htm

denverdanny · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:00 pm

Quoting AF185 (Reply 79):
If a floating object from the plane was to be found without other surrounding debris, could this lead to the theory of an a/c disintegration at high altitude, in which case parts of the plane would be plunging kilometers apart and making it more difficult to spot by the SAR teams?

I think a lot of people, including myself, jumped at the bomb conclusion when large pieces started showing up of AF447. It wouldn't mean anything yet until analyzed in a more detailed fashion, instead of on face value.

[Edited 2014-03-09 09:02:16]

Finn350 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:01 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 97):
Please excuse me since this question could be, in some way, "politically incorrect", but, how large are in southeast Asia the Italian and Austrian comunities ? I mean, are people with the typical face and look of a chinese or a thai citizen carrying a passaport with a name like "Andrew Bodenhoeffer" or " Vittorio Baschelli "a common sight in the airports?

I am not sure what theory you have in mind but my understanding is that the two stolen passports belonged to an Austrian and Italian tourist visiting Thailand. Thus the photographs in these passports should be typical of Caucasian descent.

infinit · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:02 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 97):
Please excuse me since this question could be, in some way, "politically incorrect", but, how large are in southeast Asia the Italian and Austrian comunities ? I mean, are people with the typical face and look of a chinese or a thai citizen carrying a passaport with a name like "Andrew Bodenhoeffer" or " Vittorio Baschelli "a common sight in the airports?

This region is ethnicly diverse. Some ethnic Malay Malaysians could look Caucasian and many of the ethic Eurasian Malaysians too.

Reposting what I posted in Part 5
...Secondly, some have asked why some of the crew names sound 'Western' and some sound Chinese.. Malaysia and Singapore (the other country in the Malayan Peninsula) are ethnically diverse. Different from Japan in that regard for comparison. Malaysians an Singaporeans are largely ethnic Malay, Chinese, Indian, Eurasian and a huge number of ethnic minorities. Citizens from both countries could look like anything and have names that sound like anything. My dad who is Singaporean like me has medium-brown hair and green eyes.

Starlionblue · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:04 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 113):
The circumstances surrounding this flight looks more and more similar to AF 447 than anything in recent history.

I disagree. The weather was very different and the airline has not reported receiving a slew of malfunction reports from the plane.

Gonzalo · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:04 pm

Quoting lugie (Reply 104):
Nothing impossible, just take a look at the former german vice chancellor, Philipp Rösler . Adopted vietnamese refugee with a completely german name. But I get your point of course, it is not that usual.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 105):
East Asia is more ethnically diverse than Europe and a Malay check-in agent would not expect to know every ethnic wrinkle of his own region, let alone Asians in Europe.

Thanks for your inputs !!

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 105):
We speculate here. If you don't want to read speculation, you are free not to view the threads.

Exactly !!! No one is forced with a gun pointing to the head to check this threads.... and I'm absoultelly sure the families of the passengers don't have the intention to read this threads right now.

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 109):
The incident occurred 40 mins into the flight

I would add some minutes as margin of error ( i.e. an electrical failure affecting Comms and Transponder ), but certainly not 2 hours, the crew would do something like going to squawk 7600 before that time...

Rgds.
G.

vfw614 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:04 pm

Quoting anfromme (Reply 115):
Quoting vfw614 (Reply 99):
As for the fake passengers, surely they would have been detected on arrival at AMS given the fact that the passports were stolen from Schengen zone holders and registered as such. So it is quite safe to assume that they never intended to travel to AMS - but with the European passport, they could not have gotten off the flight at PEK either...

They could have, actually.
There's a 72-hour visa on arrival programme, chiefly to allow transit connections via Chinese airports. It's something not available to Malaysians, but it is available to people holding a passport from the Schengen area.
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/embassy/visa/free-72hour/faq.htm

Will you get a transit via with a 5h55min connection?

specks159 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:04 pm

Quoting loladaisydukes (Reply 81):

Now this is interesting... Guys please go to Google maps and search 8.695133, 106.590416
Please correct me if it is not what I think it is

Appears to be an A330 in flight. Identified by the winglet and the number of hydraulic fairings (4 on each wing as opposed to 3 for a 777).

sassiciai · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:05 pm

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 103):
Just to stir the pot or add to it. It has been 48 hours now and they are only searching from where it should of crashed 40 minutes after departure. I am starting to believe they are looking in the wrong place for two reasons. As stated before a pilot said he was in contact with the pilot at 1:30am that would be a little more then an hour into the flight, second nothing has been found in such a shallow area of water. Also as stated above lots of boats would be in that area so why has no boat not in the area seen anything yet? Now what I think we might be looking at is a highjacking or a failure of a component of aircraft that still let them fly but was no able to get them back to land. If it was a highjacking this plane could be almost any where. If it was say the wingtip came off and made the plane uncontrollable again it could be way of the route of flight. The longer this search goes on the more i think they are the wrong spot. Just the way I see it.

Mark2fly1034, I'm not picking on you personally, but in this 6-part thread in under 2 days, there is way too much duplication, with people jumping in asking things that have been beaten to death in earlier posts. I thought it was a basic a.net behavioural thing to start reading at the beginning of the topic even if you enter late, and ask questions at the current thread end. Some of us monitoring this for the last 48 hours for REAL NEWS have to wade through all these lazy posts of those who wont start from the beginning!

Please, all, improve the community experience for the rest of us by doing so!

denverdanny · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:05 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 111):
As far as I know, the passports in questions were biometric which cannot be altered like in old movies 30 years ago. How on earth could an Asian have passed for a Caucasian whose biometric data and picture is stored on the biometric passport in a way that is - to the best of my knowledge - almost impossible to forge?

What I want to know, and maybe it can be answered by frequent travellers and even Asians here, are foreigners, specifically Westerners (from Europe) treated differently in security than say someone from Thailand or Indonesia or China? Are they trying to promote travel and commerce with the West by passing them through more quickly and not questioning deeply or thoroughly? Are they less suspicious of Westerners, or people having passports from the West?
Seems to me a difference here is the passports are Western. Are those more easy to come by in theft, since maybe the locals might have them less or hide them better?

[Edited 2014-03-09 09:06:47]

[Edited 2014-03-09 09:08:35]

loladaisydukes · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:10 pm

Quoting specks159 (Reply 124):

Thank you for the heads up!

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 122):

Usually some countries give transit visas to those who need one if the transit time or layover is 8 hours or more but I'm not sure with China if they follow the same thing.

GianiDC · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:10 pm

why should the two men be from asian decent? they could aswell be caucasians. i think if you get a stolen passport you should choose one which contains a photo of someone that looks at least a bit like you.

tharanga · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:11 pm

Too many assumptions being made about the stolen passports. Those guys could have been anything - not only drug smugglers, but smugglers of other kinds of goods. There are all sorts of criminals on this earth - not just terrorists and drug smugglers. Or they could just be trying to illegally immigrate to Europe. There are many possibilities, and while people may have fun speculating, nobody has any rational basis to make assumptions.

mcogator · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:12 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 14):
Just in - Luigi Maraldi, the owner of one of the stolen passports, appeared at a press conference in Phuket:

http://files.newsnetz.ch/bildlegende/141164/1736668_pic_970x641.jpg

Both stolen passports were registered with Interpol, but Malaysia didn't update the list of invalid travel documents. Apparently both passports haven't been used since 2012 and 2013, respectively (or they have been used in a way that wouldn't trigger suspicion with any government).

David

I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this yet, but what about the two with the stolen passports being government agents of some sort? Remember in Dubai the Israeli Mossad agents using stolen/forged European and Australian passports to commit an assassination. Who better than Israel to know that Malaysia didn't update their invalid travel document list? I would think it's likely that Mossad has agents visiting Malaysia, as there are quite some many Arabs in Kuala Lumpur.

aerosol · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:12 pm

Quoting andy33 (Reply 112):
As far as I know, the passports in questions were biometric which cannot be altered like in old movies 30 years ago. How on earth could an Asian have passed for a Caucasian whose biometric data and picture is stored on the biometric passport in a way that is - to the best of my knowledge - almost impossible to forge?

You put a biometric passport in a microwave for a short time and voila you have a non biometric passport - which is not illlegal!

asetiadi · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:13 pm

I'm sure they will find this plane within 1 week.

Could this be a sudden unexpected heavy turbulence that leads into in flight break up? can this be even possible?

Finn350 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:15 pm

Quoting mcogator (Reply 130):
I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this yet, but what about the two with the stolen passports being government agents of some sort? Remember in Dubai the Israeli Mossad agents using stolen/forged European and Australian passports to commit an assassination. Who better than Israel to know that Malaysia didn't update their invalid travel document list? I would think it's likely that Mossad has agents visiting Malaysia, as there are quite some many Arabs in Kuala Lumpur.

I think they were more sophistcated that that. The passports Israeli used were genuine based on stolen identities.

Andy33 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:15 pm

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 102):
I understand questioning but not being an expert on Malaysian law I'm puzzled why he'd be charged. Is there some evidence suggesting he did not run proper checks on the passports that would have revealed them to be stolen? That could be a valid reason to charge as it might indicate complicity with say illegal drug shipments. I am still scratching my head a little trying to figure out why in the 21st century with even a slow dialup modem you couldn't check on things like that when I'm pretty sure you are doing it with their credit cards. That said I could easily believe those tools weren't available to the agent in question.

The tickets were bought in Thailand, so the Malaysians can't be questioning or charging the sales agent. That leaves the check-in agent or the Malaysian border control agent who processed the passengers out of the country. Of the two the latter is much more likely to be expected to spot stolen passports, and whether they had entered Malaysia legally - holders of these passports wouldn't need visas.

Gonzalo · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:16 pm

On a positive note, I did a search about the weather forecasts in the Gulf of Thailand area, and all the forecasters are announcing good and clear weather, at least until past midday of March 13th. when some T-Storms could make the things more complex. Let's hope the forecast are correct and the SAR teams can find the aircraft before Thursday.

Rgds.
G.

cjg225 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:18 pm

Quoting loladaisydukes (Reply 123):

It is not the plane as others mentioned. But still have high hopes!

I believe the proper term to use here is... *whooooooosh*

asetiadi · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:32 pm

it's kind a ridiculous that 2 stolen passports leads into a plane disaster. I am sure in this time of the world, at this moments, many out there travels with fake/stolen passport!

If this is a bomb terrorist action...then the question should be...how the h***the c4 bomb can get into the plane?

lightsaber · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:35 pm

Quoting cipango (Reply 6):

I thought I would do a quick recap for people that haven't read through the previous posts and show the most topics of debate/speculation:

Thank you. Alas, not much new news.

I feel for the families. Uncertainty is worse than the truth (whatever that happens to be, which is almost certainly tragic).

Lightsaber

mcogator · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:39 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 133):
I think they were more sophistcated that that. The passports Israeli used were genuine based on stolen identities.

They used fake and stolen passports. Just a couple years ago there were terror threats issued in Thailand regarded Hezbollah operatives targeting Jewish/Israeli tourists there. I'm sure the region is chalk full of agents.

CPDC10-30 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:39 pm

Quoting denverdanny (Reply 126):
What I want to know, and maybe it can be answered by frequent travellers and even Asians here, are foreigners, specifically Westerners (from Europe) treated differently in security than say someone from Thailand or Indonesia or China?

Good question. I've traveled from Malaysian airports about 20 times in the past four years. In my experience, as a stereotypical 6 foot plus white male, I didn't feel that I received a less thorough screening than others. In Thailand however I have been waved through hotels / shopping malls whereas locals or Asians would have to go through metal detector / have bags x-rayed. Note that Malaysia is a much more secure society overall and that type of screening doesn't go on in hotels and malls

However I would say that the general vigilance and thoroughness of the screening in Malaysia is not as high as say, India. Bangalore particularly has very thorough screening. Many times I've been stopped and had to go for secondary screenings or asked questions - there's clearly no preference for Caucasians there. And rightly so. I remember I had a >100ml container of sunscreen that got through three layers of Malaysian security (BKI, KUL check in and KUL at the gate - secondary screening for Indian flights). However it was picked out straight away at BLR.

threepoint · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 105):
We speculate here. If you don't want to read speculation, you are free not to view the threads.

Sadly, many contributors here do tend to speculate far too much. Armed with a shred more than average knowledge about aviation, many of the wild-arsed guesses can display a veneer of credibility that can confuse the casual reader. We all understand that journalists with less than robust fact-checking prowess tend to troll sites such as this one in order to glean tidbits of information to add to a story. All too often, this info - based on speculative nonsense from people in their bedrooms around the world - appears in various media reports, serving only to further muddy an already murky situation.

We visit this site for accurate information (and to look at pretty pictures). If we want gossip and uneducated opinion, there are plenty of sources to which we can turn. It's fine to ask questions and pose theories here - and have them scrutinized by one's peers. But when we assert speculation (framing one's guesses as fact) while an investigation is in its infancy, we rapidly lose our personal credibility and that of this website. I find it unhelpful when a longtime member dismisses a call for responsibility by another contributor, and makes an aggressive challenge, as if this site were his own. I'll repeat what 'billreid' alluded to: we don't want to read any speculation. It might also mean that this thread would still be in Part 1...

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 105):
We cannot be held responsible for what less than clever people "deduce" from our speculation.

An outstanding example of deflection and ability to point blame any direction but towards oneself! If one wants to speculate, perhaps they could create or contribute to an aviation site that has less integrity.

art · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:48 pm

I hope that enough resources will have been assembled by daylight for evidence of the aircraft coming down to be found before night falls again. It will be no consolation to those connected to the passengers and crew but at least they will know that the worst has happened.

[Edited 2014-03-09 09:50:26]

B2443 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:50 pm

Quoting GianiDC (Reply 128):
why should the two men be from asian decent?

Precisely. Why couldn't be Caucasian looking?

CPDC10-30 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:51 pm

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 132):
Could this be a sudden unexpected heavy turbulence that leads into in flight break up? can this be even possible?

Airplanes have broken up in flight due to heavy turbulence before. However I'm not aware of any since then 1960s (please let me know if I'm forgetting any). There was BOAC 911 and Northwest Orient 705, Boeing 707 and 720s repsectivley. However the causes were mountain related turbulence and thunderstorm - neither of which would be a factor for MH370. I'm not aware of a jetliner ever breaking up because of clear air turbulence.

Gonzalo · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:53 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 141):
All too often, this info - based on speculative nonsense from people in their bedrooms around the world - appears in various media reports, serving only to further muddy an already murky situation.

The worst media outlets around the world will publish any rubish taken from any place. Serious information sources should have an editor in charge to filter the BS from all over the web and print only the official or respectable sources. As a consumer people has its own responsibilty to gather information from accurate sources. If I walk two blocks at any major city, I could find magazines and "Daily Anywhere" papers saying that the Prime Minister is an alien who came from Ganimedes. It is my responsibility to filter what I have available and select how good or bad are my sources.

So please stop the crying and whipping about the speculation. This is an aviation site, and we speculate about the causes from the moment of impact until the Official Final Report is available.

Rgds.

G.

rising · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:54 pm

According to RT.... Vietnamese crews have found a door from the airplane at sea.

http://rt.com/news/malaysia-plane-missing-crash-766/

threepoint · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:55 pm

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 137):
it's kind a ridiculous that 2 stolen passports leads into a plane disaster. I am sure in this time of the world, at this moments, many out there travels with fake/stolen passport!

If this is a bomb terrorist action...then the question should be...how the h***the c4 bomb can get into the plane?

First of all, we don't know that stolen passports led to this incident. Those suggestions have yet to be confirmed or discounted. Second of all, the myth of airline security is exactly that. While we expend much pomp and theatre on passenger and carry-on screening, it remains shockingly easy to place a harmful device on board an aircraft through several channels.

YokoTsuno · Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:58 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 97):

Please excuse me since this question could be, in some way, "politically incorrect", but, how large are in southeast Asia the Italian and Austrian comunities ? I mean, are people with the typical face and look of a chinese or a thai citizen carrying a passaport with a name like "Andrew Bodenhoeffer" or " Vittorio Baschelli "a common sight in the airports?

In case of Singapore, and Malaysia isn't all that different, finding a "Bodenhoeffer" or a similar name is rare indeed, although they do exist. Basically two groups:

- Locals of Indian descent who converted to Christianity during the colonial era. Since they obtained "generic" Christian names the number of names is imited to a handful, Typically; Thomas, Pereira, Hernandez, Gomez, Paul, ... Although ethnic Indians make up 5% of the population only a minority of them have Western names.

James Gomez

- Local descendants of mixed Asian/Caucasian parentage or Eurasians as they are called here. Although they have more variety in their names, I don't think they account for more than 0.5% of the population.

- Vernetta Lopez
- Jean Danker

SCQ83 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting andy33 (Reply 134):
The tickets were bought in Thailand, so the Malaysians can't be questioning or charging the sales agent. That leaves the check-in agent or the Malaysian border control agent who processed the passengers out of the country. Of the two the latter is much more likely to be expected to spot stolen passports, and whether they had entered Malaysia legally - holders of these passports wouldn't need visas.

What is interesting about Malaysia is that they have one of the most liberal policies in the world regarding visitors' visas. Basically any Western/Middle Eastern country can enter the country Visa-free. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Malaysia.

So whether this is terrorism or something completely unrelated (like drug smuggling, refugees, migration...), they could probably have entered Malaysia from somewhere else on their own passport, get the plane tickets and passports once there (they don't even need to be in Thailand for that) and fly to Europe in the stolen EU passports.

[Edited 2014-03-09 10:06:07]

Tobias2702 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:05 pm

Some interesting information about Interpol's database of Stolen and Lost Travel Documents (SLTD), which was created in 2002:

"Last year passengers were able to board planes more than a billion times without having their passports screened against INTERPOL's databases."

"[Founded in 2002,] INTERPOL's database has grown from a few thousand passports and searches to more than 40 million entries and more than 800 million searches per year, averaging 60,000 hits. The US searches this database annually more [than] 250 million times; the UK more than 120 million times and the UAE more than 50 million times."

"Unfortunately, few member countries systematically search INTERPOL's databases to determine whether a passenger is using a stolen or lost travel document to board a plane."

source: http://www.interpol.int/News-and-media/News/2014/N2014-038

vfw614 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:08 pm

Quoting Aerosol (Reply 131):

You put a biometric passport in a microwave for a short time and voila you have a non biometric passport - which is not illlegal!

Sure, but once you enter a Schengen country (like those two intended to do at least according to their tickets) it will be detected and certainly you will receive special attention by border control. If it was plain sailing, everybody criminal would just microwave his biometric pass...

Quoting threepoint (Reply 140):
Sadly, many contributors here do tend to speculate far too much. Armed with a shred more than average knowledge about aviation, many of the wild-arsed guesses can display a veneer of credibility that can confuse the casual reader. We all understand that journalists with less than robust fact-checking prowess tend to troll sites such as this one in order to glean tidbits of information to add to a story. All too often, this info - based on speculative nonsense from people in their bedrooms around the world - appears in various media reports, serving only to further muddy an already murky situation.

I have seen quite a lot of information apparently lifted from here by, just to name two, CNN and BBC, for example the information about the details of two tickets those with the fake identies were travelling on. All media outlets are running theories about a possible terrorist link, so I fail to see why it should not be permissible here.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 142):
Precisely. Why couldn't be Caucasian looking?

Because one of the theories entertained here was that the Austrian and Italian passports were used to escape profiling.

flyingturtle · Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:10 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 111):

And why bother about the passport being biometric if the customs office doesn't regularly check the facial pattern of the traveler?

We have biometric passports since a few years (I got my non-biometric one in 2009) and not every country has caught up. If Malaysia doesn't even check the Interpol database... well...

Quoting mcogator (Reply 130):

In one of the previous threads I threw up the topic of secret agents, but in connection with passports. Again, using a stolen passport would ring a bell in any country that uses the Interpol databases.

David

djm18 · Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:10 pm

Question:

When in Transit through KUL does your carry on luggage get screened or are you effectively in an "international" part of the terminal where you can freely board a next international flight without any security screens?

In the US this does not exist, to the detriment of US carrier that lose passengers to other airlines. In other words, one has to first enter the US through customs/immigration and then go through all the TSA checks. This is why I usually can't make a less than 2 hour connection in MIA, EWR or IAH on my way to Europe. It is also why many people in Central/South America now prefer to connect through Bogota or Panama to Europe as opposed to having to go through immigration in the US.

Many thanks

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net