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s5daw
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 8:15 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:56 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 243):
A passport once flagged (because of lost or theft) cannot be used anymore. If I lose my passport (or my ID card) and notify the police about the loss - there's no way I can use the passport again if I just misplaced it in my apartment, and found it after coming back from the police...

So... it has a remote self destruct built in or what???

How many countries do you think have on-line lookup to swiss passport database?
You can leave the Schengen without having your passport scanned - depends on luck, yes, but is plausible.
 
rdu2sfo
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:58 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:56 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 238):
That is truly unbelievable... so does it mean the plane could be anywhere from Indonesia to Viet Nam?

I made this point in one of the earlier threads when the idea of searching the Malacca Strait was first noted in news reports. It is simply inconceivable that a 777 flew over land undetected by at least the military. The fact that 4 ships are now searching that area is disconcerting.

At this point, the impression that I get is that either there is an unacceptable amount of confusion among the authorities or that far more is known than what is being made public. I would lean towards there being far more known than is being made public...which leads me towards terrorism because of the difference in the way an investigation would unfold and information would be disseminated if that was where this was heading.

A completely unrelated, and I'm sure dumb question: why is it even possible to turn off a transponder? What would be the legitimate reasons for ever doing so on a commercial aircraft?
 
LTC8K6
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:57 pm

AF447 went into the water intact, and recognizable debris was found quickly, the next day.
 
awthompson
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:58 pm

When airliners.net moderators close off post 6 and start post 7, I have a general summary ready, having read ALL posts in ALL parts thus far.
 
Pihero
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:58 pm

I have the habit of waiting for facts before posting on an accident, and the least *we* all could say is that faxts are scarce :
- Flight in fair weather at night.
- Plane did not check with Vietnamese ATC before / when entering their controlled airspace.
- Latest reports on wreckage puts them some 20 to 30 miles further into Vietnamese airspace.

That-is-it !

Some of us jumped into some conclusions without much technical / physics knowledge ( on the same points, neither did so-called specialists : the most glaring example is the *oil slick* : Jet fuel is both very fluid and light, very quick to evaporate : It just spreads into a very thin surface and the only thing one would see is under some light an irisation of the sea surface )... Plus, had the airplane suffered some in-flight break up, fuel is likely to be vaporised even before reaching the sea.
Finding debris will just be the first step : finding the wreckage and the recorders will need some submarine equipment : sonar or remotely piloted subs.
The state of the wreck would give the first indicfation on how it hit the sea, as a whole or in bits indicating an inflight breaking.
The solution of the mystery will mostly come from the recorders, and that, I'm afraid, will take some time and from us a lot of patience.
Of course, we are totally free to engage in wild speculations and conspiracy theories.

Regards.
Contrail designer
 
flyenthu
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:59 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 237):
It was found almost immediately.

Wow, that's pretty interesting. I read the article and that AI accident took place at early in the day. So that might have helped. It is baffling that nothing has been seen or any signal picked up from MH 370 with so many assets deployed and relay of aircraft systems during the flight.

AF 447 had flight data being relayed to AF, which immediately indicated malfunction and crucial aircraft data such as airspeed. It appears that similar data were also relayed for MH 370, but nothing abnormal was detected. This is per Richard Quest from CNN.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:00 pm

Quoting awthompson (Reply 253):
When airliners.net moderators close off post 6 and start post 7, I have a general summary ready, having read ALL posts in ALL parts thus far.

Much appreciated, thanks!
 
Andy33
Posts: 2570
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting 345tas (Reply 221):
According to the New Straits Times (can SE Asia English papers think of more original titles?),

They're very proud of their descent from the original Straits Times first published in Singapore in 1845. In colonial days this newspaper covered both British Malaya and Singapore. With independence and the divorce between Singapore and Malaysia the Kuala Lumpur edition split off from the (still continuing to this day) Singapore original, and added "New" to its title to indicate that it was now Malaysian owned but still had the same heritage and standards as its ancestor.
 
LTC8K6
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 248):

Flightaware is inaccurate, Go with FlightRadar24.
 
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jetfuel
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:07 pm

The most useful piece of evidence is possibly the ACARS DATA. Why have we seen nothing of the ACARS info
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
threepoint
Posts: 1294
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:07 pm

Quoting ah414211 (Reply 227):
Might I suggest that if you're seeking NEWS perhaps you should stick to NEWS sites? This is NOT a news site, and the information here is often less than reliable, and speculative at best....

Agree that this is not a news site; it merely collects and regurgitates current events that are reported in the general (and sometimes specialty) media. But this site, and a couple others, offers the chance to dive into depths that no media enters - it provides analysis of a hundred things such as aircraft production, route structures, current events etc to a degree that even the aviation publications don't venture. It allows people to pose questions and make comments and have them answered by those in the know. We are lucky to include among our membership many pilots, mechanics, airline and manufacturer staff, designers, engineers and analysts that are involved with, see firsthand or have experienced many of the issues that fill this site. They offer great clarity and understanding as to why, for example, a new airliner may enter service four years late, or why an airline introduced, amended or cancelled a route. But for every one of these industry professionals, we can count dozens of enthusiastic, but ill-informed members that tend to inflate their experience and/or gather their aviation information the same way as the general public - by conventional media outlets.

Of the 1200+ posts on this thread, fewer than a hundred I would venture offer any meaningful insight into the MAS incident that can't be gleaned from a half-dozen clicks on any search engine. That's the risk of any popular website, but let's not get distracted by the elephant in the room: offering speculation as fact makes a fool out of the person who states it, and brings general discredit upon the rest of us. How ironic that many of those who endorse speculation were likely among those who brayed at others - mainly members of the media - who were caught doing the same thing (Capt Sum Ting Wong ring a bell?).

Quoting D L X (Reply 226):
If not SPECULATION _AND_ NEWS, what is this site even for? Why is speculation only allowed by government authorities and engineers but not aviation enthusiasts?

Speculate away. I wouldn't be surprised if someone on here discovers the actual cause before the news or maybe even the investigators do. It won't be the first time.

Is speculation "allowed" by governments and engineers? You'd think these are among the last people to willingly damage their credibility by making guesses without adequate evidence or facts.
If somebody here on this website discovers the actual cause of MH370, that would be a bombshell. I'm at a loss as to how this could possibly happen. It certainly would be the first time. Perhaps you meant you wouldn't be surprised if somebody here GUESSES the actual cause...?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
mcogator
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:11 pm

Quoting lh648 (Reply 245):
You can buy a ticket, cross the border and board with one passport and enter the country with another.

May be those two guys were wanted by Malaysia and they used stolen passports to leave the country?

Great point. My wife is Russian-American. Whenever she flies to Russia she leaves on her US passport and enters Moscow on her Russian passport. The two stolen passport holders could be Mossad agents leaving on stolen passports where they wouldn't be detected by Malay authorities, and then upon arrival into Europe, they could have just furnished their true passports.
“Traveling – it leaves you speechless, then turns you into a storyteller.” – Ibn Battuta
 
Tobias2702
Posts: 287
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:12 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 259):
Why have we seen nothing of the ACARS info

Because a) there is none (as has been mentioned earlier, automatic ACARS messages are not a mandatory feature) or b) it has not yet been made public.

Out of curiosity, I've had a look how the accident of AF 447 unfolded in the airliners.net forum. There, AF quite quickly issued a statement that messages about "electrical and cabin pressure failures" had been received.
PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
 
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flyingturtle
Posts: 6029
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:15 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 250):
So... it has a remote self destruct built in or what???

No. But once notified as lost or stolen, it's in the Interpol database. And also in Swiss databases. If I notified my passport as stolen/lost, but in truth I still have it, I could exit Switzerland fairly easily - for example by train or by foot. By an international flight... not really.

But in these years I've seen more and more hand-held devices for reading passports and IDs. On modern flash storage media, one could easily store an up-to-date list of all flagged pass and ID numbers. Worldwide.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 250):
How many countries do you think have on-line lookup to swiss passport database?

Inside Schengen, there is automatic information exchange...


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
D L X
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:17 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 260):
Is speculation "allowed" by governments and engineers? You'd think these are among the last people to willingly damage their credibility by making guesses without adequate evidence or facts.

ABSOLUTELY.

The scientific process includes speculating on what may have happened, then proving it did, or proving that the known facts contradict the theory. Without a doubt, there is an incredible amount of speculation of what happened to this jet. That speculation is what is going to lead us to an eventual solution. Just because you don't see them speculating on television does not mean they are not speculating.

We've already seen people on this site leading the media and government towards answers. From what I can gather, the fact we now know about the two people who purchased tix with stolen passports having purchased at the same time from the same agent was pieced together here before it ever appeared in the news.

There just simply is no legitimate reason to attempt to shut down speculation on Airliners.net, and you really shouldn't let it bother you that other people are using the site for one of its intended purposes.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 260):
Of the 1200+ posts on this thread, fewer than a hundred I would venture offer any meaningful insight into the MAS incident that can't be gleaned from a half-dozen clicks on any search engine.

That shouldn't surprise anyone. There simply isn't much news to report. But that doesn't mean that 1000s of posts worth of inferences can and should be made.
 
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EA CO AS
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:18 pm

This accident is a prime example of where satellite-based WiFi being used to stream CVR/FDR data in real-time would have been hugely helpful.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Viscount724
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:20 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 263):
Quoting s5daw (Reply 250):
So... it has a remote self destruct built in or what???

No. But once notified as lost or stolen, it's in the Interpol database. And also in Swiss databases. If I notified my passport as stolen/lost, but in truth I still have it, I could exit Switzerland fairly easily - for example by train or by foot. By an international flight... not really.

You could also exit Switzerland to any Schengen countries very easily by air. I haven't had to remove my passport from my pocket on any trips from Switzerland to Schengen destinations in the past couple of years. Even at the security check, the only thing they ask for is your boarding pass. I could have made many trips without a passport or any ID whatsoever, especially when you check-in online.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10034
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:20 pm

Quoting cipango (Reply 6):
- 2 passengers were travelling with stolen passports and have purchased a ticket simultaneously as their E-ticket numbers were only one digit apart. They were flying KUL-PEK-AMS-CPH.

It's worse than that. The two stolen passport passengers purchased the tickets together; as noted they were sequential tickets. They were paid for in Thai Baht (Thailand being where the passports were stolen) yet the trips were to start in KUL. One pax was booked KUL-PEK-AMS. The other was booked KUL-PEK-CPH. It's suspicious. There is clearly something going on there. Merits investigation. However, it may still be nothing related to the crash, just a coincidence. But compare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojinka_plot In one African bombing years ago, a ticket was bought for the bomber, point A to B to C. He was told to board, plant the bomb, and get off at B where would be met by someone to take him home and pay him a lot of money. He was told the bomb would explode between B and C. Of course, it was actually set to explode between A and B, killing him.

[Edited 2014-03-09 13:23:28]
 
flyenthu
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:37 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:20 pm

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 262):
Quoting jetfuel (Reply 259):
Why have we seen nothing of the ACARS info

I believe there is ACARS data. This is what I gathered from Richard Quest's on CNN this morning. From what I understood is that there was nothing unusual observed.
 
hh65man
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:52 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:20 pm

Ok, a few comments and remarks have got my curiosity up. Would every qualified airline pilot who has passed on their opinion, judgement, or speculated on this accident please stand up and identify your selves? I am very curious to know what the true professionals think. Or if any of them, you, have put your two cents in.....
 
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Finn350
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:22 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 250):
How many countries do you think have on-line lookup to swiss passport database?

Schengen Information System (SIS) is used by 27 countries, including Switzerland. There are more than 46 million entries (called alerts) in the SIS, mostly covering lost Identity Documents-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Information_System
 
s5daw
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 8:15 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:24 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 263):
Inside Schengen, there is automatic information exchange...

I was referring to countries outside Schengen, like Malaysia, where - as you see - having a passport listed in interpol means nothing.

Also, to my knowledge not all passports are scanned and checked when you are leaving Schengen, even if you are flying out. An interesting example is (was?) VIE, where due to renovation of the terminals, there basically is (was?) no outbound pass control in the new terminal (other than some random checks at the gate)...

The point is, you SHOULD not use your revoked passport, but to say "there is no way you could" is simply wrong.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1646
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:25 pm

I find the angle of the sequential tickets being issued to two individuals with stolen passports to be a rather disturbing aspect of this.

They certainly weren't mules carrying drugs as I doubt highly that you would have drug runners moving product from one country which proscribes the death penalty for drug trafficking to a second country which does the same.
 
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Revelation
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:25 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 233):
So, as with most discussions about aviation accidents, we have "speculation" about a terrorist bomb, terrorist hijack, pilot hijack, pilot suicide, deliberate attack (e.g. by China), a drop to tree-top level to land in a secret far-away place (e.g. North Korea), a meteor strike and probably a few I've missed.

You did somehow neglect to mention the 'collision with falling satellite' theory back in post 147 of part 2 of this thread  
Quoting David L (Reply 233):
And all these speculations are valid because there's no evidence to disprove them?

Uhm, yeah...
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jetfuel
Posts: 1078
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:26 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 268):
Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 262):
Quoting jetfuel (Reply 259):
Why have we seen nothing of the ACARS info

I believe there is ACARS data. This is what I gathered from Richard Quest's on CNN this morning. From what I understood is that there was nothing unusual observed.

Then that mean either A. Catastrophic instant failure or B. ACARS system disabled via interference
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
giopan1975
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:55 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:26 pm

Stolen passports issue is highly likely to be irrelevant with incident cause - people board on planes lying about their id in those countries should be quite common I guess...

What is highly suprising is the fact that modern technology cannot detect an airplane of that size and importance in the first 2 minutes after communication loss is established...I believe it has to do with airplane builder (in this case Boeing) huge EGO that such device would never be needed so why waste money and time?
 
jfritz
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:49 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:27 pm

This aircraft flew nose first into the ocean, intact, at a high rate of speed.
 
Kiwinlondon
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:24 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:32 pm

This is pure speculation. There are two other possibilities:

1) Dangerous goods in the hold that caused a fire. Someone did mention it earlier but no comments have followed that I have seen.

2) What about the recent problems in China? This flight had a CZ code share on it. Does this make it a potential target as a criminal may not know the difference between a "normal" flight and a code share flight?

Kiwinlondon
 
SA7700
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6

Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:32 pm

Due to length this thread will be locked down for further contributions. All posts added after thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 7 which is available here:

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)


A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

It is not unique to this incident and if we go back in history and trace remarkable aviation events we will see that speculation has been an aspect, essential to some healthy debate. It is not the intention of the moderators to stifle the opinions of members that fall within the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. All that we kindly request from all our members is to stay within the site’s parameters. Please be respectful towards one another and let us all hope for the best possible outcome. Enjoy the forums!



Regards and thanks so much for your co-operation,

SA7700
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