CaptainKramer
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:12 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:07 am

Thanks Airvan00, when I said "communications failure", it implied a technical failure, when "failed to make contact on the new frequency." was more the case.
 
Redsand187
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:47 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:09 am

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 172):

Figure the force over area. I'll bet you anything a solid lead bullet has more force over it's surface area then a hollow aluminum plane. Roughly 315 square feet (~45,000 square inches) vs 0.04 square inches. The cross section of the fuselage is literally 1,500,000 times greater then an average bullet. Now you factor just the volume of the fuselage and convert see what a bullet that size would be. You are roughly 60,000,000lbs of solid lead based on a run of the mill .223 round used in your average rifle. The bullet is traveling nearly 2000mph as well.

So granted the comparison isn't 1 to 1, for the plane to penetrate as deep as an AR15 round into the water, the plane would need to weigh roughly 60,000,000lbs and be going 2000mph.

Concrete is 50% more dense then water. How far into a 200ft deep slab of concrete do you think a 777 would go?
 
flyenthu
Posts: 587
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:37 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:11 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 193):
However if the repair was done according to Boeing specs and certified correct, the wing would be at least as strong as when the plane came off the showroom floor.

Say, if there was a major issue with that wing. Let's say part of it broke off, could it sever communications completely and immediately that nothing related to the planes' systems could be communicated automatically or by the pilots?
 
specks159
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:59 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:11 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 199):
Furthermore, the 777 has roll control from three sources: outboard aileron, inboard aileron and spoilers. So even without the outer aileron, roll control could be maintained.

Hypothetically, if the wingtip were to fall off, lock the outboard aileron, and then drain all of the hydraulic fluid in the area, is the hydraulic system on the 777 such that it would isolate the area and keep system pressure up for the rest of the plane? Or could that possible cause a UA232 like loss of hydraulic control?
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1535
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:11 am

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 196):
http://tuoitrenews.vn/society/18186/...t-not-related-to-mh370-us-rescuers

U.S. search and rescue forces have confirmed the floating object a Singapore search plane had detected on Sunday afternoon is not in any way connected to Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 that has gone missing since early Saturday, according to a U.S. defense chief based in Vietnam.
 
stuyyz
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:09 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:14 am

Quoting illinicmi (Reply 192):
Quoting ASA (Reply 179):
Are you suggesting something along the lines of "Flight 714" ?!!

I don't think the plane can be on land anywhere, as there would be 227 cell phones trying to text/emai/twitter, etc.... as soon as the plane is low enough over land below radar, its almost 90% probability that it is in (or went through) some cell phone range somewhere.

I know my phone starts receiving/sending email/etc... well before landing.
 
Senchingo
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:59 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:15 am

This is kind of a first time to happen under the given circumstances. We are able to discuss over the internet in real time on forums and blogs around the planet. Witnesses could pass their information in no time and even upload pictures videos etc. Media is sending their teams to the spot within hours. SAR teams are deployed within the least possible time. Yet, we almost have no hard facts what exactly is/was going on.

All this i guess i the reason why this topic is exploding and hundreds and thousands of posts were created within the first 48 hours already in this forum alone.

I personally don't think we are "talking about souls on board" here in the first place. We, as mainly a forum for aviation lovers and tech geeks, are talking about the facts and possibilities of a wide body aircraft disappearing. Everybody understands that it might involve human casualties, but i don't think anyone is making a statement that is unfair or making fun of victims on purpose (of course some statements could use a little less sarcasm though).

Given the huge amount of background knowledge in every possible aspect on this website, i find it highly interesting to read along and piece by piece get new info, clear up questions or just declassifying wrong statements media-wise.

Of course, once this whole event is fully explained, there will be people claiming "i said exactly that in post #xxx", but nevertheless, why not just read along and follow the story?
If you exclusively want facts to be posted, you can still refer to websites giving just that.

Brgds/Sen
 
User avatar
MillwallSean
Posts: 949
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:07 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:15 am

Quoting cipango (Reply 153):

People are going on and on about the stolen passports and many have implied that they "chose" the KUL-PEK on purpose.

If they were simply people trying to get into the EU as some believe, maybe the flight from KUL-PEK-AMS-CPH/FRA was cheaper to fly from Malaysia than from Thailand.

Well cheapest tickets was mentioned before and makes sense if they are westerners.

if they are Syrian refugees etc then its more likely due to the fact that the beijing route has been tested several times before by Syrian refugees going to Sweden. At present many have reached Sweden and beijing has started to send a few back thus we see 5 in a Phuket Jail for instance.

Whoever they were, they choose the wrong flight...

What id like to know is if there were more tickets bought in sequence from that Pattaya travel agency. Another one or two tickets bought in similar circumstances wouldnt be a huge surprise.
id also like to know what flight they took from BKK to KUL and if they just transited or if they had to check in manually to their MH flight. But i guess that will take its time.

The main reason for speculating about the false passports right now is that as long as there is no trace of the plane its very little that can be added and the false identities are the only tangible fact we can work with. And id like to know about this agency in pattaya, thats the issuer but are they also the one that sold the ticket?
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
CaptainKramer
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:12 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:19 am

For those in the know.

There was mention of a left turn from heading 024 to 333 IIRC. Now the Malaysian B777-200ER sustained damage on the starboard (right) wing. What would happen if the repair done to the wing had somehow failed, surely the aircraft would roll to the right in this instance, as more drag was applied to the starboard wing as a result of the wing tip failure, or would flutter on the starboard side be more of an issue.

Thanks in advance.

Thanks danvs I have corrected the headings to 024 to 333, as you pointed out.

[Edited 2014-03-09 18:44:18]
 
cal764
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:50 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:23 am

RIP all souls on board. Do we know which organization will be spearheadding the investigation? Chances are good NTSB, Boeing, the engine manufacture and the like will more than likely contribute to the investigation, and we know many different countries are assisting with the search..So very sad and I'm hoping someone didn't deliberately intend for this to happen or gross negliance for that matter.   
1. Fly to Win 2. Fund Future 3. Reliability 4. Work Together CO: Work Hard, Fly Right...
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3302
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:23 am

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 176):
This is with some safety margins I would assume?

The way I was always taught was that those distances were calculated under perfect conditions with test pilots performing them. The captain had a lot of hours so he could probably get close to those numbers.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 196):
Has anyone noticed that the jet would have a glide distance between 100-120nm from 35.000. With derbies being 113nm, away from the last known position?

If they were gliding it would certainly make sense that debris is so far away. But if they did glide over a long distance there still is the question of why they didn't alert anybody to the situation. I'm not sure what the best glide speed would have been, but lets just say it is 225 knots. That's roughly half an hour between power loss and splash down. That's a long time to be flying around and not alerting anybody to the issue.
Pat

[Edited 2014-03-09 18:25:56]
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:23 am

Quoting illinicmi (Reply 192):

The idea that it landed on the water at low speed like US Airways 1549 but sank in one piece is possible (the LHR BA 777 looked not too bad after hitting solid earth so I'm sure a 777 could land on water if done right and remain in one piece). That would explain why no debris have been found after so long. Landing in the water at that time of night would have given it enough time to sink before sunrise - but a night landing on the open sea? Very difficult! IIRC it did not take 1549 long to start sinking. I just find it strange that in such a well used area that nothing has been seen or found yet, nothing at all... Surely if it exploded in mid-air there would have to be some debris floating somewhere if it happened over water. If it happened over land, even in a remote area, something must have been heard or seen by now. I doubt that it could have been taken and landed somewhere without anybody knowing after so long. It did have about 5+ hours of fuel left at the time it went missing according to reports so it could be anywhere as it is not known when the plane actually stopped flying - so looking in the wrong area is very possible. I just find it strange that, if it crashed shortly after it went missing, nothing at all has been found after 2 1/2 days of searching now in its last known area. It could have flown around for much longer and be in a totally different area? It could have landed on the water in one piece and sank, leaving no debris? There are so many possibilities... If there was a massive explosion, bigger than TWA800 (as there was a lot of floating wreckage from TWA800), and the plane was blown into pieces at altitude, would it still be possible to find debris? I would assume so. And, how could such a massive explosion be possible? The 777 has a proven safety record so would getting such a powerful device onto a plane even be possible? The mystery continues...

[Edited 2014-03-09 18:29:29]
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
specks159
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:59 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 208):

For those in the know.

There was mention of a left turn from heading 333 to 024 IIRC. Now the Malaysian B777-200ER sustained damage on the starboard (right) wing. What would happen if the repair done to the wing had somehow failed, surely the aircraft would roll to the right in this instance, as more drag was applied to the starboard wing as a result of the wing tip failure, or would flutter on the starboard side be more of an issue.

Thanks in advance.

If the wingtip simply fell off, there would be a tendency to roll to the right. Not only would there be more drag on the starboard side, but the wing would also be generating less lift on that side. As for flutter, that is possible, although I'm not quite sure how severe it would have to be to have catastrophic effects though.
 
romeobravo
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 183):
No worries. Fuel dumping is only needed if the maximum take-off weight exceeds the maximum landing weight by a considerable margin, and this really only happens with wide bodies.

i was under the impression planes landing overweight was perfectly doable, it would just mean checks before the plane can be used again.

one wonders if the decision to dump fuel has ever cost a flight. i seem to recall SR111 for example didn't stand a chance even if it flew straight in.
 
flyenthu
Posts: 587
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:37 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:30 am

Another point that just crossed my mind is that AF 447 came down intact and the passengers did not know about the event taking place. I think there were no oxygen masks deployed or floating vests worn. There were no calls of distress made or texts sent by passengers. The plane was also into the Atlantic where cell phone coverage is not expected.

MH 370 on the other hand was only about 40 min out from take off and in an area from where calls or texts are likely possible. Yet, no calls were made or texts received to my knowledge. This makes me somewhat convinced that whatever happened must have been extremely sudden and catastrophic, and the passengers did not have any prior knowledge.
 
danvs
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:34 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:34 am

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 208):
There was mention of a left turn from heading 333 to 024 IIRC.

It's allegedly the opposite: from 024 to 333.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 210):
But if they did glide over a long distance there still is the question of why they didn't alert anybody to the situation.

And also why ATC couldn't see them gliding over such a long distance with their primary radar.
 
CaptainKramer
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:12 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:37 am

With a passenger manifest released, it will be interesting to see where the two passengers with the stolen passports were seated on the aircraft. If they were seated in the economy section, it would probably rule them out of a Hijacking scenario, as they would not be able to see the Cabin Crew activity i.e. flightdeck visits, etc, up front, or stroll into First Class unchallenged, provided there was no one else on the flight connected to them, up in First Class.
 
infinit
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:12 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:39 am

On the two men traveling on stolen passports:

"Malaysian Home Minister says the passengers who used stolen European passports were of Asian appearance; criticises border officials who let them through"
http://www.todayonline.com/world/asi...isintegrated-mid-air-source-claims

"Thai police target "passport ring" in vanished flight probe"
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...ic/thai-police-target/1026784.html


*edit* added:

Malaysia probing possible terror link in jet mystery
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...aysia-launches-terror/1026114.html

[Edited 2014-03-09 18:44:01]
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:41 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 183):
Very theoretically yes. The dirt would add to the landing distance though.

I'd think the dirt would subtract from the landing distance, as it would likely not be able to support the weight of the plane, and the gear would sink into the ground, putting the fuselage on the ground and causing a lot more friction to slow the plane down (and overstressing the gear in the process).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
IADLHR
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:25 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:42 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 207):
What id like to know is if there were more tickets bought in sequence from that Pattaya travel agency. Another one or two tickets bought in similar circumstances wouldnt be a huge surprise.
id also like to know what flight they took from BKK to KUL and if they just transited or if they had to check in manually to their MH flight. But i guess that will take its time.

On one of the locked threads there were comments about cheap ground transportation between BKK-KUL . In some travel books that is mention too.
 
celestar
Posts: 539
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2001 11:37 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:42 am

I still maintain my first guess that this is an act of terriorist attack by the East Turkistan Movement at Xin Jiang.

1. Moden airliners don't disappear just like that. It must happen really fast and so sudden that nothing can be done about it by the air crew.
2. Remember KunMin attack few days ago and plus China is having their big annual meeting of sorts, all points out to a good reason why this act of terror could happen. There are so many Chinese nationals on this flight and it is heading towards Beijing. Now, with regard to Malaysian Muslim on board, I am not an expert but since there are so many different fractions within the Muslim world, the terrorist might choose to ignore them as brotherhood.
3. The Malaysian authority reported aircraft turning back - I think that is when the exposion happen and part of the damaged plane could be spinning in different direction and one large debris could be heading the other direction - again my guess, but to divert part of the search over Adaman Sea is simply a strange suggestion. If indeed the radar tracks shows that, it would have been properly detected on the radar screen.
4. Why nothing has been found - well, it takes time. I am not sure about the condition of the sea but I do recall one occasion when I was with the army in Singapore, we searched for a fallen airforce jet off the Sumatra coast and boy, what a muddy ocean that was and we wonder around for 3 days, continue to receive on and off buoy signals from the fallen jet and it took us two weeks to finally located the aircraft. In that instance, the pilot made it by parashuting out in time!
The muddy water seaboard could make detection of debris, very difficult and more time consuming than would otherwise expected.

My only question was why the terriorist group was so silience without taking responsibility? It then dawns on me that even with the Kun Ming massacre, I do not see the East Turkistan or any radical muslim group openly admitted their participation. I also recall the traffic accident happened at TienAnMen square months ago, where a car went up in flames and it was months later that someone from the same group admitted their involvement. Given little we know, it could be a different fraction within that group and that is why, with so much internal difference within the organization, it would be an act that is not coordinated.

I think the apparent fact of fake passport - one way ticket was further evidence. As there is little information regarding the other 5 who had checked in and did not show, and consequently their luggage removed, in my opinion, could be a decoy. I think the Malaysian authority probably are looking deep into this and with FBI help, they will get to a point that an announcement will be made soon. The last time MAS crashed was a B737-200 off Johore, apparently highjacked by a radical group. I remembered fondly because one of the victims was a classmate of mine and she sits right behind me.

My sincere and deep prayers go to all the deceased. It is always sad to see something like this happened.
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:45 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:42 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 117):
Once hitting the water, depending on the angle and whether the aircraft was still pressurized, it could fall to the bottom of the ocean at great speed, accelerating from the point of impact (after the initial dissipation of energy/momentum). Thus it could strike the bottom with sufficient force to both break apart and embed itself under the sand/silt layer.

That is a rather mistaken notion. Aircraft are quite fragile structures designed to operate in a fluid less than one thousandth the density of water. A typical aircraft structure will shred from excessive dynamic pressure upon impact with the water unless landed at a very shallow angle. Even the US Airways "textbook" landing on the Hudson River severely damaged the lower portion of the rear fuselage.
 
apfpilot
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:19 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:42 am

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 188):
What about the wing damage from the past? I understand that after repairs the aircraft was certified to fly. However, this does not appear to be much of a concern. I saw pictures and it seemed pretty extensive. It is coincidental that the same plane that suffered the wing damage is also involved in this incident. Why isn't this a cause of concern? Why not focus a bit on what we know than what we do not?

You would be surprised how many airplanes are flying around that have had damage of that type and are still tooling around. I've seen some pretty hefty damage repaired first hand that essentially required a re-build of the entire aircraft. Replacing a wingtip and maybe an aileron is NOTHING in the grand scheme of things. Beyond that even if it did fail it is doubtful that it would case something so catastrophic that the flight crew wouldn't have been able to make a call.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 202):
Say, if there was a major issue with that wing. Let's say part of it broke off, could it sever communications completely and immediately that nothing related to the planes' systems could be communicated automatically or by the pilots?

Doubtful this DHL A300 for example to a SAM to the wing and kept on trucking: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ommons/9/90/DHL_Iraq_missile_2.jpg
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
comair25
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:45 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:43 am

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 214):
MH 370 on the other hand was only about 40 min out from take off and in an area from where calls or texts are likely possible. Yet, no calls were made or texts received to my knowledge. This makes me somewhat convinced that whatever happened must have been extremely sudden and catastrophic, and the passengers did not have any prior knowledge.


Last known radar reports puts the plane around FL350, I highly doubt anyone was going to get a text or call out. And it was actually 2 hours after leaving Kuala lumpar that they lost radar contact.

[Edited 2014-03-09 18:46:52]
 
gcb5196
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:45 pm

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:44 am

Paraphrasing the FAR's if I remember correctly, so forgive me if I'm wrong. An aircraft can be designed to have a takeoff weight over max landing weight, but must have a way to dump/jettison fuel to reach max landing weight. As others have pointed out this involves most long haul wide body aircraft.
 
Airvan00
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:06 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:46 am

Quoting flylku (Reply 195):
It surprises me that the primary returns from the various radar systems have not shed more light (so we are told). In 2000 I was once flying over West Virginia in a Piper Tri-Pacer (single engine, metal frame covered in fabric) when the transponder failed. We turned it off and asked Washington Center for flight following based on the primary return. They reported that they saw us! If they could see us what would the primary return of a 777 look like? Even if it disintegrated in flight, pieces of the wreckage would be larger than the radar signature of our little Tri-Pacer.

In your case i expect you were illuminated by multiple radars. In this case it appears to be on the very edge, if not beyond, the coverage of primary radar
 
CXfirst
Posts: 3021
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:13 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:52 am

Quoting specks159 (Reply 203):
Hypothetically, if the wingtip were to fall off, lock the outboard aileron, and then drain all of the hydraulic fluid in the area, is the hydraulic system on the 777 such that it would isolate the area and keep system pressure up for the rest of the plane?

I believe there are 3 separate hydraulic systems, so if the entire right one failed, there should still be no problem.

Also, regarding the wing tip. This incident happened in 2012, while multiple cycles could have weakened it over time, I see it as unlikely to have simply failed on this flight, where there was no significant weather or turbulence reported. Metal fatigue failures usually happen in turbulence, often within aircraft limitations, but well outside normal operating conditions.

I'm still astounded nothing has been found, I was surprised nothing had been found after 12 hours, and now just perplexed.

-CXfirst
 
hivue
Posts: 2020
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:54 am

Quoting celestar (Reply 220):
one way ticket was further evidence

Anyone wishing to commit an act of terror on an airliner would be pretty stupid to buy a one-way ticket.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
UA787DEN
Posts: 410
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:59 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:54 am

Quoting gcb5196 (Reply 224):

I don't think it MUST have a way to dump fuel if it has a MTOW over MGLW, but because of the insane difference between those numbers on Widebodies, most widebodies can dump.
Narrowbodies just fly around for a couple hours.
For instance, a B6 320 a few years back had some issue. It flew around a little bit to burn fuel before landing (back at LGB if IIRC).
 
asetiadi
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 5:05 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:55 am

This is something that I never understand.... if you can track down a missile, why can't you track down a big plane?

Another thing is, why is it so hard to call mayday, it takes 1 second just to say a mayday word.

The last 2 big accidents, we were having trouble locating the plane. I guess FAA must do something about this because we can't afford to find a plane more than 24 hours. Too much data/important clue could go missing.
 
rdu2sfo
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:58 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:56 am

Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 225):
In your case i expect you were illuminated by multiple radars. In this case it appears to be on the very edge, if not beyond, the coverage of primary radar

This may have answered the question I was going to ask, which is, do we know the coverage of primary radar in the area where contact was last made. If there is primary radar coverage in that area then doesn't it stand to reason that it would be impossible for the aircraft to have descended intact. In addition, wouldn't it be true that the aircraft could not have travelled beyond any "blackout" area of primary radar coverage in the Gulf of Thailand because if it had it would have reappeared on primary radar.

If the above is correct, then I remain baffled as to how there seems to be such a large search area, including per published reports, in the Malacca Strait. Some basic process of elimination would seem to yield a relatively confined search area (emphasis on relatively).

Increasingly, it seems to me that there is no one in charge of the SAR effort. What I would consider a fairly chaotic SAR process is captured in the NY Times latest update:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/wo...a-airlines-flight.html?hp&_r=0

I would also note from this Times article that it appears samples were taking from that "oil" slick for testing. That would suggest that there was some actual non-naturally occurring fluid in the pictures of the slick that have been posted.
 
CaptainKramer
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:12 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:56 am

Further to the damaged starboard wing failure scenario, and out of curiousity, if the aircraft rolled to the right, because of increased drag and reduced lift owing to wing tip failure, would the Flight Software logic come into play and apply rudder input to port (left) side to compensate for the asymetric configuration, or does this scenario only apply to engine out scenario.

Thanks in advance.
 
User avatar
Coal
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:14 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:00 am

Quoting comair25 (Reply 223):
And it was actually 2 hours after leaving Kuala lumpar that they lost radar contact.

No it wasn't. I strongly suggest you read through all of the ~1,250 posts like the rest of us have done, and/or check your assumptions first. If they had lost radar contact 2 hours into the flight, that would have put them north of Ho Chi Minh City, deep into Vietnamese land, not over the Gulf of Thailand.

On another note, I was going over the FR24 recording. Pretty chilling to see. But I noticed once they reached FL350, they were at a steady 24-25 deg heading, and the last recorded heading on FR24 (not as reliable, I know) is actually 40 deg, not 333 deg as suggested in other posts. So it seems there was certainly some maneuvering.

Quoting celestar (Reply 220):
I still maintain my first guess that this is an act of terriorist attack by the East Turkistan Movement at Xin Jiang.

I am also inclined to think the same. It will be interesting to see the faces of the two who used the fake / stolen passports, but ethnic Uighurs (who are a large minority in Xinjiang) do look Caucasian, so this is a very strong possibility. I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong once the facts are known, but I am also strongly inclined to think it is foul play.

Cheers
Coal
Nxt Flts: SQ SIN-KIX | HD UKB-CTS | NH CTS-NRT | SQ NRT-SIN | AK SIN-DPS-SIN
 
airplane
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:54 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:00 am

Something has to come up float. Pieces of seat cushions, panels, fabric, etc. it's impossible for it to just vanish completely
Gotta love seeing the world from above
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8645
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:02 am

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 229):

Another thing is, why is it so hard to call mayday, it takes 1 second just to say a mayday word.

It's been explained, many times that you aviate, navigate, THEN communicate. When it hits the fan, the only thing you should be doing is getting the aircraft stable. Not going to claim anything in regards to this flight but I will counter the notion that it's so simple to merely say Mayday. It's simple for you sitting in your chair but who knows what happened, there can be scenarios where the pilots are so bogged down that communicating is the last thing on their minds.

It would probably have to be something absurdly demanding that lasted until the crash but it's not impossible

[Edited 2014-03-09 19:06:01]
 
argonaught
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:56 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:03 am

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 229):
Too much data/important clue could go missing.

It's not impossible that there are survivors, whose chances to be rescued are dwindling with every passing hour.
 
Airvan00
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:06 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:03 am

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 229):
This is something that I never understand.... if you can track down a missile, why can't you track down a big plane?

Missiles are higher. Radar (at least what we are talking about here) is line of sight.
 
User avatar
Boeing717200
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:26 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:05 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 227):
Anyone wishing to commit an act of terror on an airliner would be pretty stupid to buy a one-way ticket.

Historically that's what most have done. I'll grant you most of them are stupid.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3302
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:06 am

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 229):
Another thing is, why is it so hard to call mayday, it takes 1 second just to say a mayday word.

Aviate, navigate, communicate. Yeah it sounds bizarre to not call up and alert anybody. But your primary mission is to safely overcome this issue. Even if they did get the mayday out if there is limited radar coverage you're going to have to provide your location. Which takes time. If something catastrophic happened you don't know what could have happened to prevent them from communicating. Even easier would have been to just turn on the ELT (though I do not know where that is located in the 777) then make a mayday call. There is a number of things that could have happened to prevent them from making a mayday call. When there are many other aircraft on frequency, simply saying "Mayday" is the same as not saying anything.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
romeobravo
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:07 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 227):
Anyone wishing to commit an act of terror on an airliner would be pretty stupid to buy a one-way ticket.

perhaps i'm overlooking something obvious, but what makes you say that?
 
User avatar
Coal
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:14 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:09 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 227):
Anyone wishing to commit an act of terror on an airliner would be pretty stupid to buy a one-way ticket.

But if you think of how this would play out, e.g. two European backpackers on an extended vacation in SE Asia, now returning home, is not all that unusual. Not sure whether immigration authorities have access to airline reservation systems, but I have never been asked to show a return ticket when traveling in Southeast Asia.

Cheers
Coal
Nxt Flts: SQ SIN-KIX | HD UKB-CTS | NH CTS-NRT | SQ NRT-SIN | AK SIN-DPS-SIN
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:12 am

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 185):

Exactly. A plane hitting the water in a dive is akin to stomping on an empty beer can.
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5946
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:13 am

Quote:
On Sunday, Vietnamese media reported that rescuers had found a yellow object they thought might be part of the aircraft. But the news media later said it turned out to be a coral reef.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/wo...aysia-airlines-flight.html?hp&_r=1
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
rdu2sfo
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:58 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:14 am

The one-way ticket concept is stupid if you are a terrorist because a one-way ticket naturally attracts more scrutiny, and the assumption is that a terrorist has the resources to pay for the round-trip ticket. So if you have the resources why not mitigate the "risk" of greater scrutiny from a one-way ticket. But as someone else said it has historically often been the case that terrorist use one-way tickets.
 
danvs
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:34 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:14 am

Quoting Coal (Reply 232):
But I noticed once they reached FL350, they were at a steady 24-25 deg heading, and the last recorded heading on FR24 (not as reliable, I know) is actually 40 deg, not 333 deg as suggested in other posts. So it seems there was certainly some maneuvering.

The last known position is near IGARI waypoint, where they should turn right heading 059° to intercept airway M765. It was turning right when it vanished from FR24.
The 333 deg comes from news (I'm not sure where), not from A.netters.
 
Airvan00
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:06 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:14 am

Quoting rdu2sfo (Reply 230):
Increasingly, it seems to me that there is no one in charge of the SAR effort. What I would consider a fairly chaotic SAR process is captured in the NY Times latest update:

Someone would be in charge. There would be a RCC (Rescue Coordination Centre) active somewhere in the area that would be coordinating the search effort. People would be following the guidelines laid down in ICAO docs.
Just because the newspapers don't get information dosen't mean that a lot is not going on.
 
CaptainKramer
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:12 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:17 am

Hi Celestar, If the missing Malaysian B777 was a politically motivated act of Terrorism, then it does seem strange that if it was a bomb that was detonated onboard, why was it set to detonate over water instead of over Chinese Airspace, where it would have more of a directed impact, unless it was in fact a Hijacking and passengers realising this, tried to regain control, as was the case with United 93.

Another thing, presumably there was some sort of drink or meal service provided, after reaching cruise altitude, which would block the ailse more, than after the service was completed, making a dash for the flightdeck more difficult.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1751
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:18 am

Quoting airplane (Reply 233):
Something has to come up float. Pieces of seat cushions, panels, fabric, etc. it's impossible for it to just vanish completely

Not to mention all the fuel and oil; it has to be visible as a giant oil slick!
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2726
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:18 am

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 228):
I don't think it MUST have a way to dump fuel if it has a MTOW over MGLW, but because of the insane difference between those numbers on Widebodies, most widebodies can dump.

Widebodies can land at MTOW if needed. Max landing wieght is for safe *routine* operation. If you need to land, doing so at MTOW runs the risk of damage to the aircraft, but it is still quite possible.
 
nm2582
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:15 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:19 am

In terms of mobilized search crews/planes/ships - any ideas on how the number and capabilities of these resources add up? Are they overwhelmed with the sheer amount of area to search, or are the available resources more than adequate?

In other words, should it be surprising that nothing is found so far, or is expected because there just isn't enough search capacity?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos