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doulasc
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If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:09 am

At the time Pan Am was going to buy National,Eastern was talking about bidding for National also.Do you think a
Eastern-National merger would have been better than the Pan Am-National merger? Also Frank Lorenzo wanted National.
I think either way Eastern and Pan Am would have still gone belly up when they did. For Eastern one less competitor on the
Northeast to Florida routes and would have gained Florida to California routes.
 
eastern747
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:37 am

National was a tough group to run with. It may have worked, but you have to remember National was controlled buy the MAGTAG family. I think it was run by one of sons....I think it was a gift. There was some bad blood between us,,,, They were across the runway from us in MIA, and my office, our corporate headquarters. But on a personal level, they were very nice. When EA was going to start MIA-LON I was sent to talk to the caterer to learn about forms, procedures, duty free etc. I had a comp ticket on NA since they flew MIA-LON. I was in F/C both ways and they could not have been nicer. The service was top notch. BTW Wy doesn't the check spelling work anymore....?
 
rwy04lga
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:37 am

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 1):
but you have to remember National was controlled buy the MAGTAG family

I remember it spelled MAYTAG.

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 1):
BTW Wy doesn't the check spelling work anymore....?

I don't know 'wy'. Try proofreading.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
milesrich
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:48 am

Lewis B. Maytag, Jr. of the Newton, Iowa based washing machine company.
 
delta2ual
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:55 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 3):
Lewis B. Maytag, Jr. of the Newton, Iowa based washing machine company.

Yes, I believe he went by "Bud". I know of a National/PanAm/Delta F/A that dated him. He was a very nice man, according to her. She said he loved National and it was more than just a hobby for him.
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
CF-CPI
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:06 pm

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
.Do you think a
Eastern-National merger would have been better than the Pan Am-National merger?

From the standpoint of profitability, it may have turned out better since to major rivals with large overlapping route systems would have combined. It would have been an oddball widebody fleet, with DC10-10s and L10s on hand, though NA had DC-10-30s which would have been useful overwater widebodies (and don't forget EA acquired a few of their own in the mid-80s).

However, would antitrust issues have arisen? I can't help but think there may have been some opposition, especially in late 1979.

As it was, things went to Pan Am, and it was a marriage from hell, leaving both EA and PA to die on the vine ten years later.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:08 pm

At IAH EA/NA would have had two banjos; 1 & 4 in Terminal A and I suppose a connector could have been built to support a small IAH hub. Might have given CO/TI a run for their money.

I would venture to guess at JFK all flights would have been consolidated at the T-6 "Sundrome".

With IAH as a hub, EA might never had the MCI hub.

All that NE-Florida overlap would probably have been right-sized, with aircraft moving to IAH to build that up a bit.

And lastly, EA/NA may STILL have had to deal with Lorenzo/Texas Air down the road.
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer's Night Dream
 
bobnwa
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:45 pm

National was also in discussion with Northwest at the time regarding a merger
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:50 pm

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 5):
(and don't forget EA acquired a few of their own in the mid-80s).

Indeed, to operate flights to London. If EA had acquired NA, they would have in the process gained access to LHR, not Gatwick.
 
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northstardc4m
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:46 pm

No, EA shouldn't of made a big move for NA unless they could of gotten it cheap...

Pan Am should of let Lorenzo have the sunking when the price per share went into orbit, but they kept bidding it up and paid far too much...

See now if Lorenzo gets NA, he has a much smaller empire, no money to make runs for TWA or EA...

Pan Am could of found a different domestic feed partner or merger target(s) for much less. If they had just waited a couple more years deregulation would of pushed the door in as it were and their scramble for domestic feed would of been moot.

Eastern without Lorenzo probably COULD of made it... and maybe as a merger candidate for TWA, the 2 complimented each other operationally and would of fit together nicely.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
jfk777
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:31 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 8):
Indeed, to operate flights to London. If EA had acquired NA, they would have in the process gained access to LHR, not Gatwick.

Eastern would have been Gatwicked, the reason National got LHR is at the time they started Miami to London there was no mandate they fly to Gatwick in 1970, National got to stay at Heathrow. National was grandfathered at LHR. Had National flown to London after 1977 from Miami or another US city they would have Gatwicked too, this was because of the Bermuda 2 treaty.

The reason PA was able to retain the Miami route at LHR was PA & TWA were the two US airlines at LHR. This is the reason why the DOT approved PA as the Miami to London airline. When they approved the National merger they didn't approve Miami to London, that was a separate proceding by the CAB, FAA or DOT at the time.

Eastern did try Miami to London in 1986 but lost its shirt. There was not only daily BA and PA 747 but a new entrant called, Virgin Atlantic.
 
panampaul
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:36 am

This is a great question but I suspect that the two airlines would not have meshed terribly well. I don't know the fleets well enough to speak to that but this does beg the question, what if Pan Am had simply not purchased National but had somehow had the patience to wait a year or so and, after deregulation, created its own domestic route network. That might have made the difference for PAA.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:51 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Eastern would have been Gatwicked
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
National was grandfathered at LHR.

Okay, thanks.

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 11):
what if Pan Am had simply not purchased National but had somehow had the patience to wait a year or so and, after deregulation, created its own domestic route network. That might have made the difference for PAA.

I'm almost certain it wouldn't have been worse than what they ended up with: paying far too much for a little airline that didn't bring much if anything at all to PA; two completely different corporation cultures; the integration of the National employees into PA seniority list, with all the resentment that it created and, I don't remember exactly why (perhaps was it because of the inner conflicts between the orange team and the blue team), the wish by the General that he hadn't hastened the merger so much in the end. The merger also added another type of aircraft, the DC-10, whence PA had just ordered a fleet of Tristar.
 
MakeMinesLAX
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:05 am

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 7):
National was also in discussion with Northwest at the time regarding a merger

Interestingly enough, Northwest scooped up National's 2 747-135s when they proved too much airplane for the latter's operations.
 
doulasc
Topic Author
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:57 am

I think in the 1970s National should have bought Texas International so National could expand across the Sunbelt west of
IAH. National had its corners,The Northeast,Florida with MSY and IAH and California.then MIA-Europe. But would Frank
Lorenzo ever consider being the Buyee?
 
jfk777
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:50 am

Quoting doulasc (Reply 14):
I think in the 1970s National should have bought Texas International so National could expand across the Sunbelt west of
IAH. National

That is if the main shareholder, Frank Lorenzo would have sold ? Doubtful he would have.
 
bobnwa
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:54 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 12):
what if Pan Am had simply not purchased National but had somehow had the patience to wait a year or so and, after deregulation, created its own domestic route network. That might have made the difference for PAA.

Did PA know at the time that deregulation was coming and the details?
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:43 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Eastern would have been Gatwicked, the reason National got LHR is at the time they started Miami to London there was no mandate they fly to Gatwick in 1970, National got to stay at Heathrow. National was grandfathered at LHR.

The reason PA was allowed to serve LHR on MIA-London was NOT because they already flew to LHR. It was because PA was National's "corporate successor". Whichever airline had purchased National - Eastern, Pan Am, Northwest, Texas International - would have inherited NA's rights to LHR, because they would have been NA's corporate successor.

When UA and AA bought PA and TW's LHR routes in 1990, this became a serious subject of contention between the US and the UK, because UA and AA were not PA and TW's corporate successors. Eventually, the British gave in, but not after a hard fight.
 
jfk777
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:11 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 17):
The reason PA was allowed to serve LHR on MIA-London was NOT because they already flew to LHR. It was because PA was National's "corporate successor". Whichever airline had purchased National - Eastern, Pan Am, Northwest, Texas International - would have inherited NA's rights to LHR, because they would have been NA's corporate successor.

Only Pan Am would have been able to keep the LHR use for Miami to London, not EAstern. The "corporate Successor" clause you are refferring to is from the Bermuda 2, and applied only to PA and TWA. IF an airline had merged with PA or TWA as a going concern it would have kept the LHR slots.

Being one of the 2 USA Heathrow airlines had its perks in unintended ways, when AA purchased TWA's LHR slots it got ORD, LAX, BOS and JFK routes but not Miami. AA was able to start Miami to LHR because DL was flying Miami LGW with its PA Atlantic division purchase. AA had Miami to London route authority and the rights at LHR Bingo it transferred its flight to Heathrow.
 
doulasc
Topic Author
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:56 pm

In National's route system there was a gap between IAH and California that needed to be filled.They could have added
more cities in Texas,Albuquerque,Phoenix etc.I think a NA/TI merger would be ideal. Frank was not going to be the buyee.
He had to have the upper hand.Is he retired now,he would be 74 now.Maybe National tried to expand in the sunbelt but
couldn't because the CAB wouldn't grant the routes.They did get ATL-SFO which did not work work well for National
with it being a point to point with no connecting passengers.
 
seatback
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:03 pm

I don't remember hearing about the two possibly hooking up. At any rate, it would have been a dumb combo. EA wouldn't have had much to gain, other than some routes to Europe.

Route-wise, TW, BI, UA, or AA would have been better choices.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:29 pm

Quoting seatback (Reply 20):
I don't remember hearing about the two possibly hooking up.

This is from Flight Global archives and not only about National but also about three other tentative mergers back in 1979.

US mergers in the melting pot article part 1; 2 & 3.
 
lat41
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:23 pm

I recall National being weakened by some nasty strikes in the 70s. EA and NA both served Providence and I recall going without seeing National birds for long stretches.
 
TPA0822
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:57 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Eastern did try Miami to London in 1986 but lost its shirt.

Minor change - EA started LGW service in 1985. I was able to upgrade to first class (maybe business) shortly after the flights started.

An earlier thread discusses this at length.

Eastern Airlines MIA LGW Service (by Pa747sp Feb 2 2008 in Civil Aviation)
 
coachclass
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:17 am

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 7):
National was also in discussion with Northwest at the time regarding a merger

It seemed at the time to be a foregone conclusion that Northwest and National would be merged especially since the
Maytags wanted out badly. But as I recalled the newspapers reporting at the time, neither airline was quite sure who
would be the surviving party or even where the headquarters would be located.

I think National's Sun King logo was really iconic and should never have been retired but I also enjoyed seeing in
international airports that NW plain red tail.
 
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N62NA
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:55 am

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 24):
I think National's Sun King logo was really iconic and should never have been retired but I also enjoyed seeing in
international airports that NW plain red tail.

Don't forget, we DID get to see the Sun King logo for a short time about 10 years ago:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Scott Lindsell

 
doulasc
Topic Author
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:49 am

why did National drop Boston,Providence,Baltimore,Philadelphia,Daytona Beach,Tallahassee,and cut way back at
Savannah,Charelston,Norfolk.In the end not much intra Florida routes. Did not have the milk runs with 4-7 stops in the end
before the Pan Am merger.
 
PMUA787
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:51 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 25):
Don't forget, we DID get to see the Sun King logo for a short time about 10 years ago:

Remember the short lived National Airlines out of LAS from 1999-2002 that had a growing fleet of 757-200's

And now Murray Air Cargo is using the National name currently.
 
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N62NA
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RE: If Eastern Bought National Airlines

Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting PMUA787 (Reply 27):
Remember the short lived National Airlines out of LAS from 1999-2002 that had a growing fleet of 757-200's

Yeah. Wish they had been able to use the old logo, though.

Quoting PMUA787 (Reply 27):
And now Murray Air Cargo is using the National name currently.

Yep.

I wish a.net in the photo search would give us a way to search for "which" National Airlines we would like to see. I only have an interest in seeing pictures of the original one and have to sift through all these "later" National Airlines just to find the good ones.  

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