panampaul
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:13 am

The lack of progress is however making people think out of the box. I just came across the Tomnod website which is using a form of crowdsourcing to have people around the world look at sat images of the region. (This was mentioned upstream in this thread)

Very cool idea (and yes, I spent about 15 min. tagging images).

This is also why the area of investigation is now being widened. It's clear to most if not all that there's no plane in the Gulf of Thailand I suppose.

Malaysian Officials Expand Search Area

Quote:
The three significant leads that officials had in the search for the missing Malaysian Airlines jetliner that disappeared Saturday failed to pan out, and underscore the fact that, despite the wealth of safety and emergency equipment on the plane, modern technology is unquestionably fallible.

Indeed, Malaysian authorities said Monday ...

.
 
rcair1
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:14 am

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 5):
Not at all. It is hugely prevalent (if not mandatory) still (at least here in Europe),

Interesting - I did not know that. Maybe it has to do with
1) Density of radar systems
2) The fact that radar was largely deployed in Europe first (due to the wars).

Quoting rc135x (Reply 14):
Does the 777 autopilot have an "auto level off" function, where the cruise altitude is set during climb and the airplane will automatically level off without pilot intervention?

Yes - it could do this.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 23):
Does the lack of fuel in the ocean mean that the fuel tanks held up? If so, does that mean the wings are not damaged?

No. The fuel would rapidly disperse. Most likely it means we have not found it.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 24):
If the outflow valves were closed, the pressure would make it easier to open than normal... If those systems were working normally, the pressure would have normalized and it would be like opening a car door (underwater - nearly impossible). It's my understanding that aircraft have pressurized canisters on the emergency exits that, when "armed", force the door open and inflate the slide.
Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 30):
hank you for that response as well. I did not know the exit doors are equipped to be opened in any environment

On both these - wait a minute.
Number of problems here.
First - the aircraft is designed to withstand a differential of high pressure inside and low outside. The same structure cannot handle the opposite in any great extent. An aircraft would crush/leak very rapidly if submerged far.
Assume an a/c at 35000 ft is pressurized to about 6000 ft, the differential will be about 8.5psi.
That same pressure differential exists under water in the opposite direction - at about 19ft deep

So
- if the a/c remained pressurized to 8.5psi
- and gently sank to about 20 feet - the pressure would be about the same and the door could open easily (except for the drag of water compared to air.
- Below 20 feet, if you could release the handle - it would open quickly - the doors are designed to resist the opposite pressure. (shear force on the latch may well prevent the handle from being opened).

Of course - the idea that the aircraft could sink 20 feet intact with no leaks is silly. Maybe if you had a crane to lower it in. No conceivable crash/ditching would be gentle enough. It would leak.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 40):
They then killed both pilots, switched off the transponder and turned the plane around in the direction of their intended target

I doubt this could happen fast enough for the PF (isolated in the cockpit) to not get out a message. This would be a case where aviating and navigating are done - so communicate. That does not count if the crew were the ones fighting - like Egypt air 990

Quoting OTF (Reply 41):
severing the cockpit & the rest of the fuselage

The aerodynamic forces on the fuselage at cruise speed with the front blown off would rip the a/c to pieces. It would not remain intact.

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 51):
Even if the plane was experiencing a catastrophic event, either the F/O or Captain would certainly make a distress call

It has happened in many cases.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 74):
d) The ring sound is not generated by the phone (we know; but the home network doesn't generate a ring if it hasn't located the phone)
Quoting spacecadet (Reply 74):
None of these points really debunks/refutes anything as they all rely on assumptions about what happened, and the last one is a particularly obvious example of false logic.

Sorry. You are incorrect. The system most certainly will generate a ring while looking for the phone. Often you can hear the ring tone changes when the local system hands off to the remote system when the phone is located, but the local system generates the ring. I've actually used this as a trigger to hang up when calling a colleague who often travels from the US to India. I can tell by the ring tone change he is in India and it is probably the middle of the night so I should not bother him.

Rings heard by the caller can happen when the target phone is off or off the network. The fact that you hear ring tones does not mean the system is talking to the phone.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 74):
and responders hearing phones ring as they're working rescue/recovery missions.

Nobody denies that. It can and has happened. Cell phones are often used to report emergencies including plane crashes.

However, in this case, if the phones were connected to the network, we'd know what tower/towers they are talking to and we'd have a much smaller area to search. Not only that - based on time delays, they can predict how far from the tower.

I cannot accept the premise that the search area is wide and widening and officials are saying "we don't know where it is", IF we had even one passenger/crew cell phone talking to a tower. We'd know immediately the area to look in.

-bg
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:15 am

According to the Mirror the Iranians intended to "migrate to Europe"

"The two passengers travelling on stolen passports on missing Malaysia Airlines
flight MH370 are reportedly Iranian nationals.

An Iranian friend of one of the men told BBC Persia he hosted the pair in Kuala Lumpur
after they arrived from Tehran in the days preceding their flight to Beijing.

The source, who claimed he knew one of the men from his school days in Iran, said the
duo had bought the fake passports because they wanted to migrate to Europe.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...-flight-live-3219331#ixzz2vbnF7k1f

[Edited 2014-03-10 17:17:05]
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747megatop
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:16 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 95):
If AF447 hadn't had ACARS reporting, it too would have vanished like this.

Well, at least some floating wreckage was found in the AF 447 case 5 days later (http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/discovery.of.the.wreckage.pdf). So, not totally vanished. Note that AF 447 vanished in a remote area so it took 5 days; MH 370 has disappeared in a very busy area with a lot of shipping and air traffic so it should be reasonable to expect locating debris much earlier than 5 days; if not debris then at least an oil slick!!
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:17 am

I initially thought bomb or catastrophic event like I think most people here. But after reading 11 pages of posts, I have a new theory...

Chinese Espionage (I originally thought Iranian, but I don't think it would have the range).

I know it is a bit far fetched. But hear me out. Like many have said, the timing of it all conveniently fits with the Captain going to the bathroom (or the First Officer, but the Captain seems to be more reputable). It is likely that the First Officer turned off the transponder and stopped communicating.

This of course has been proposed already. The problem: no plane?

But think about it. If the First Officer had been recruited by the Chinese government, they could have provided him with a flight plan that would have avoided all ground based radar (or simply just kept the radar details a secret). And given that they had enough fuel to land just about anywhere in China, there could be a remote, secret landing strip that easily could have handled a 777 landing.

And it isn't like they haven't tried to re-engineer a plane from scratch before in the past.

I admit, it's out there. But it's also just about the only thing that explains all the peculiarities to this scenario (no primary radar, no ACARS, no wreckage).

Hell, even the missing 20 employees from Freescale Semiconductor could be of good use as prisoners. And most people on the plane were Chinese. One could argue, why not just do it with a China Southern 777, but it might raise more supspecion than a missing, "for sure crashed" airplane.

Just some thoughts trying to put all the pieces together.
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:20 am

Here's one to think about. In the SFO Asiana crash last year which was rather violent involving a collision with a sea wall followed by a semi cartwheel type manoeuvre (watch video if you haven't seen it) from wing tip to wing tip, the fuselage remained rather intact.

Older designs of aircraft including the B737/MD80 etc have been seen in accidents to break apart at various points.

I learn from this that the B777 is a sturdy design, one that might stand up better in a controlled ditching than we realize. Perhaps engines and some parts would separate, again similar to Asiana 214 but for wings to stay attached and the fuselage to stay largely in one piece.

I believe hence it is possible for 9M-MRO to have ditched with enough deceleration forces to incapacitate the majority of persons on board but for the aeroplane to stay largely intact, just like the Asiana 214 hulk, however to suffer enough perforations to sink quite rapidly.

This is the only scenario which I can see that results in very little or no surface debris, but at the same time accounts for lack of slides/rafts/survivors on the surface. Also it is quite unnerving that some survivors could have gotten out, only to be missed by search aircraft in open sea.

This scenario would also fit with no explosion having been seen or heard, and no clear seismic record being recorded of a high speed impact with the sea surface.

The part that is difficult to accept is how some control could have been maintained but yet there was no working equipment to enable emergency communication in some form although there are certainly some remote scenarios where this could be possible.

Also why has an ELT signal not been located

If in the next few days no wreckage is found, the above scenario will have to be assumed. A full seabed search will have to begin at square one where the surface search began back on Saturday. There will of course be less urgency by that stage knowing that the 'rescue' phase will be long since over and only the 'search' and 'recovery' phases remain.
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:21 am

Quoting flyKiWi (Reply 85):
I know it's been discussed before, but in my opinion - if this was a hijacking, or a terrorist act, there would be somebody / some organisation taking responsibility. The 'point' of terrorism, if you can call it that.

Really interested in how this pans out...

And of course hoping for the best.

Not if THIS highjacking wasn't the "end result" planned.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 84):
What's the theory, anyway? That all of these people are alive and well somewhere with good cell reception, everyone just lets it ring?

I am not saying the passengers are alive, and letting their phones ring, but that their phones were never on the flight as one option, or someone else (possibly high jackers) have the phones.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 88):
unless it was a hijacking to get the plane and the "point" would be where the plane turned up next.

That is the scary thought if the plane actually made an unscheduled landing somewhere secret.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 91):
f this was a hijack, in this day of age, there most defiantly would have been a mayday or help call over the radio.

It wasn't a hijack.

the only thing that fits in the facts, and remotely fits a hijack idea is if one of the pilots took sole control.

edit

now CNN is quoting US officials, "there are more and more indications that this is not a terror event, but we can't rule that out." The passport people bear the hallmarks of "a human smuggling ring."

I know not a flat out denial, but now we can get to the mundane talk about this disappearance.

There would have been a call of some kind, unless the crew were in on it, not saying they were, but EVERYONE has a price. (money, threat to family, etc)

Quoting flyKiWi (Reply 93):
Or at least a 7500. Unless they really knew what they were doing ... But again, the only reason I decided to post my opinion was to counter the hijack theory. I don't believe it either. And as somebody put it before me - this has been the strangest aviation accident in quite a while. Unless there's facts we're not being told.

If the highjacking were well planned, and involved the crew, and some passengers, and airline employees on the ground, or possibly ATC.

Quoting penguins (Reply 94):
A problem I seem to see with a lot of these theories is that even if the transponder if turned off, won't the plane still return a radar signal, just with no data. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Unless it flies below radar, which in some areas can be 10,000 feet.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 95):
They are power assisted when armed but not sure of the gas canister opens the door. I think that may be electrical. Turn the handle and the door opens. The slide is then inflated with a compressed gas cartridge (CO2?). In any case same function in practice.

On "most" airliners today, there are 2 gas systems for the doors, the 747 for example, and I believe the 777 as well, there is a gas cylinder of assist in the opening of the doors that is activated after a 1/4 turn of the door handle once cracked. This opens the door fully allowing the slide to engage the second gas system, the slide inflation.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 95):
The major difference is that AF447 had automated ACARS reporting for maintenance, while MH370 seemingly did not. If AF447 hadn't had ACARS reporting, it too would have vanished like this.

But does MH have the system installed? If they do, it could have been inhibited from transmitting anything. If they do not have they kind of system installed, then we won't know anything.
 
rcair1
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:22 am

Quoting penguins (Reply 94):
A problem I seem to see with a lot of these theories is that even if the transponder if turned off, won't the plane still return a radar signal, just with no data. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct, to an extent, but it is not as simple as that. The direct return is called primary radar. The transponder return is secondary. Secondary has much larger range and most ATC systems do not use primary much (apparently Europe does.) I posted something about that in the last thread -

So - the aircraft could easily be in range for secondary, and not for primary.

There have been reports of military radar seeing the aircraft turn after transponder was lost.
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:22 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 104):
Chinese Espionage (I originally thought Iranian, but I don't think it would have the range).

But think about it. If the First Officer had been recruited by the Chinese government, they could have provided him with a flight plan that would have avoided all ground based radar (or simply just kept the radar details a secret). And given that they had enough fuel to land just about anywhere in China, there could be a remote, secret landing strip that easily could have handled a 777 landing.

Now now, i know that we all are speclating over 10 parts of this thread; now i think you are taking it to a new level!!
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:24 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 108):
Now now, i know that we all are speclating over 10 parts of this thread; now i think you are taking it to a new level!!

I'll give you. It's a bit crazy. But then again, so are random planes in remote Chinese deserts: Google Map Link

I am just saying, it does explain the evidence at hand thus far.

Just for the record, I am not saying it is here. This would be out of range I think. But an example of China doing some weird things and clearly having the ability to get planes to places that don't have established airstrips.

[Edited 2014-03-10 17:47:31]
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:29 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 104):
Chinese Espionage (I originally thought Iranian, but I don't think it would have the range).

I know it is a bit far fetched. But hear me out. Like many have said, the timing of it all conveniently fits with the Captain going to the bathroom (or the First Officer, but the Captain seems to be more reputable). It is likely that the First Officer turned off the transponder and stopped communicating.

This of course has been proposed already. The problem: no plane?

But think about it. If the First Officer had been recruited by the Chinese government, they could have provided him with a flight plan that would have avoided all ground based radar (or simply just kept the radar details a secret). And given that they had enough fuel to land just about anywhere in China, there could be a remote, secret landing strip that easily could have handled a 777 landing.

And it isn't like they haven't tried to re-engineer a plane from scratch before in the past.

I admit, it's out there. But it's also just about the only thing that explains all the peculiarities to this scenario (no primary radar, no ACARS, no wreckage).

Hell, even the missing 20 employees from Freescale Semiconductor could be of good use as prisoners. And most people on the plane were Chinese. One could argue, why not just do it with a China Southern 777, but it might raise more supspecion than a missing, "for sure crashed" airplane.

Just some thoughts trying to put all the pieces together.

Wait...you're suggesting that they concocted this highly elaborate scheme just to steal a 777 so they could reverse-engineer it, rather than using one of the many jets Chinese airlines already own? How on earth could that raise less suspicion than just pulling one of their own jets out of service (for storage, or maintenance, or whatever)? And something like that could easily start a large-scale war if discovered.

Sounds like confusing a James Bond movie plot with reality.
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:31 am

The Malaysian media updated that the search extended up to Sumatra in Indonesia and waters around Hong Kong.

It would be surprising if the flight managed to flew as far as Sumatra or Hong Kong undetected, even with their transponders being off??

Again I'm not sure the technical details of the aircraft, but if somehow it did fly up to HK or Sumatra wouldn't the military radar in either Indonesia or Vietnam/Thailand picked up about this mysterious flight? Any thoughts? Do correct me if I'm wrong on this one..

http://my.news.yahoo.com/mas-aircraf...ssing--says-airline-023820132.html

[Edited 2014-03-10 17:33:18]
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:33 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 109):
But then again, so are random planes in remote Chinese deserts

My apologies but your link goes to some Turkish farmland in Balıkesir Çanakkale Yolu
Hurma /Çanakkale and not some Chinese desert.

[Edited 2014-03-10 17:34:35]
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:35 am

Quoting hoMsAr (Reply 110):
Wait...you're suggesting that they concocted this highly elaborate scheme just to steal a 777 so they could reverse-engineer it, rather than using one of the many jets Chinese airlines already own? How on earth could that raise less suspicion than just pulling one of their own jets out of service (for storage, or maintenance, or whatever)? And something like that could easily start a large-scale war if discovered.

Again. Just a speculation. But to answer your direct question (which I already somewhat addressed in the first post when mentioning China Southern's 777), you need more than a D-check maintenance cycle to reverse engineer a plane. It would take years to do it.

You didn't see the reverse engineering of the downed F-117 in 1999 until around 2011. If a China Southern 777 went missing for 12 years, someone would notice eventually.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...S-fighter-develop-stealth-jet.html
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:35 am

Quoting awthompson (Reply 99):

Here's one to think about. In the SFO Asiana crash last year which was rather violent involving a collision with a sea wall followed by a semi cartwheel type manoeuvre (watch video if you haven't seen it) from wing tip to wing tip, the fuselage remained rather intact.

Older designs of aircraft including the B737/MD80 etc have been seen in accidents to break apart at various points.

I learn from this that the B777 is a sturdy design, one that might stand up better in a controlled ditching than we realize. Perhaps engines and some parts would separate, again similar to Asiana 214 but for wings to stay attached and the fuselage to stay largely in one piece.

Too many assumptions. Crashes are all different and we don't know what would have happened to a 737 or M80 in the Asiana case. As mentioned a few threads ago, the 777 is as strong as it needs to be in order to withstand service loads and certification requirements. Boeing are not in the business of making structures unnecessarily heavy for the remote case where a pilot decides to try landing on a sea wall.
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:37 am

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 112):
My apologies but your link goes to some Turkish farmland in Balıkesir Çanakkale Yolu
Hurma /Çanakkale and not some Chinese desert.

Sorry. Google Maps Beta is the worst at linking. Try this: http://g.co/maps/vgdf7

Also, I didn't post this one before, but here is a remote airstrip in the desert: http://g.co/maps/375xc - again, not that MH370 had the range for this in particular, but I am sure there are others.

[Edited 2014-03-10 17:48:10]
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:37 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 109):
I'll give you. It's a bit crazy. But then again, so are random planes in remote Chinese deserts: Google Map Link

I am just saying, it does explain the evidence at hand thus far.

I don't think it's too crazy, except for the motive... I doubt the motive is trying to re-engineer an airplane. I think that if the aircraft indeed landed somewhere the motive is more sinister.
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:37 am

Please don't flame me if this is clearly a wrong hypothesis, but....

Factoring in the last known position (about 170 miles south of the Tho Chu island, according to wikipedia), did a rough calculation as to how far it could've gone until running out of fuel, if everyone onboard was incapacitated.

428 knots-filed speed according to flightaware. This is equal to 492.534 mph.
The plane had about 7.5 hours of fuel left, according to wikipedia. At 492.534 mph, it could've theoretically gone a total of 3694 miles more. Roughly judging what direction the aircraft was going, I came up with this:


How far MAS370 could've gone with fuel remaining by kann123air, on Flickr

Is this possible?
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:39 am

Quoting kann123air (Reply 117):
Is this possible?

I think the issue with this is that it would have been spotted by South Korean radar (and Chinese for that matter).
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:40 am

Quoting awthompson (Reply 105):
Also why has an ELT signal not been located

The water is attenuating the ELT signal, further more ELTs only have to have a battery for 24 hours, so the ELT is dead.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 105):
I believe hence it is possible for 9M-MRO to have ditched with enough deceleration forces to incapacitate the majority of persons on board but for the aeroplane to stay largely intact, just like the Asiana 214 hulk, however to suffer enough perforations to sink quite rapidly.

Smoke inhalation could have done the same thing.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 105):
The part that is difficult to accept is how some control could have been maintained but yet there was no working equipment to enable emergency communication in some form although there are certainly some remote scenarios where this could be possible.

When normally set up, an airplane is a very stable. Commercial airplanes are designed with positive static and dynamic stability. this means that if disturbed from a trimmed attitude, the airplane will naturally return to the trimmed altitude.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 98):
I don´t think so. Ditching is very dangerous, specially at night.

Just as an anecdote, There is a professor who flies a jet at my university. Every time he goes to recurrent training, for his "fun flight", he practices an approach to 0/0 minimums. In other words he lands the airplane without any outside references, in a jet that is not actually certified for this type of jet. (He only does this incase he must use those skills, not so he can use them.) The way he pulls of this landing successfully is pitch and power. He set the power for approach and the pitch for the approach - and then holds the airplane down the Glide slope in this configuration- bringing the power to idle, and the pitch slightly up when the radar altimeter announces 20 feet. hand flown 0/0 approach. Im not saying it is easy, Im not saying i would ever try it, but I am sure it can be done.

edit

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 118):
I think the issue with this is that it would have been spotted by South Korean radar (and Chinese for that matter).

or Russia, Japan, and North Korea.

[Edited 2014-03-10 17:46:12]
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:42 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 98):
It´s a matter of time until they find something. But I doubt they are going to find it intact. I´m also inclined to think the authorities are not telling the whole story, which is part of the reason why this has gotten more confusing by the day.

Agreed. Several items, IMO.
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:43 am

Quoting kann123air (Reply 117):
At 492.534 mph, it could've theoretically gone a total of 3694 miles more. Roughly judging what direction the aircraft was going, I came up with this:

It's theoretically possible assuming that whatever knocked the transponder out did not otherwise impact the plane's flying ability. But it seems impossible that a plane could fly over much of China's eastern seaboard without it being picked up by Chinese military radar, which would detect the plane regardless of the transponder's status.
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:45 am

If the plane broke apart (for whatever reason) in the area of its last known location then I would have expected some debris to be found by now - anything at all. And that has not happened which leads me to believe that the following scenarios are starting to become more possible:

1- The plane successfully ditched on water, remained intact and sunk. The engines broke off but they sunk too. Yes, very hard to do at night, but it would have given plenty of time for the plane to sink before sunrise.

2- The plane went down in a remote / jungle type area after it tried to return to KL - an area in which the vegetation would make the wreckage difficult to spot from air.

3- The plane had a mechanical problem (for whatever reason) but flew a lot farther than first thought and went down in a totally different area. For instance, would it be possible for all electronics to just die?

4- The plane was taken and ditched / crashed far off course or even might have landed somewhere in secret.

Let's just hope something is discovered today. The two with the stolen passports may have been involved in an act of terror or maybe they were just drug couriers or people seeking asylum? I just think that too much emphasis has been placed in the media on the two fake passports when they haven't found a single part of the plane yet and it is apparently not uncommon to use fake passports in that part of the world. If there are survivors out there then I'd guess that they are running out of time. Whatever the outcome and cause, I would hope that it is looked into how a large commercial airliner was just able to vanish and be undetected for so long in order to prevent airliners from just going 'missing' in the future.
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smeagol
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:45 am

777 Fleet in China:

CA: 25 (772A and 77W)
CZ: 17 (772A, 772ER and 77W)
MU: 4x77W will be delivered by end of 2014

If you think China is so hungry to get the technology, tell me why China will make all the way to "steal" a MH 772ER in service and with 153 Chinese onboard? Instead of ground one all their own 777 and do what they want to do?
When you look at a pig, no matter from what angle you look at it, it is a pig...
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:45 am

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 40):
Here is a possible scenario: imagine the two people with false passports were terrorists. When the captain or co-pilot got up to go to the toilet, they rushed him and managed to break into the cockpit. They then killed both pilots, switched off the transponder and turned the plane around in the direction of their intended target

Even if they switched the transponder off wouldn't there still be a target, just with no identifier? At least for the time the plane remained airborne.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:47 am

Quoting awthompson (Reply 105):

Also why has an ELT signal not been located

Does not work under water unless it is floating. Water is very difficult for anything but high-power low-frequency radio to get through.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:50 am

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 124):
Even if they switched the transponder off wouldn't there still be a target, just with no identifier? At least for the time the plane remained airborne.

I asked a similar question, about expected coverage and recording/archiving of primary radar in the region.

I was told by someone in this thread who allegedly has worked ATC, that there is not often primary radar in the flight levels on the civilian side at least at these stations, and that the range is 60nm or so. Other people had commented previously that they had worked with PSR with greater range.

We don't know. It's entirely possible that there was a primary return on military radar, and they are not sharing that with us.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
747megatop
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:52 am

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 119):
or Russia, Japan, and North Korea.

and the US military.
 
UA787DEN
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:54 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 109):

Yeah no. Plenty of Chinese Airlines own 777s. And the government could acquire one in ways that don't involve hijacking.
Plus - if China did want it - why not wait until the plane was near Chinese Airspace? The pilot could land it in China and the gov could seal radar records.

Has there been any search further into the South China Sea away from the Gulf?
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:54 am

Quoting smeagol (Reply 123):
If you think China is so hungry to get the technology, tell me why China will make all the way to "steal" a MH 772ER in service and with 153 Chinese onboard? Instead of ground one all their own 777 and do what they want to do?

As I stated when someone else questioned the same thing, you can't keep a 777 in a D-Check for 12 years. Sooner or later, someone is going to ask a question as to where that plane ended up.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 113):
Again. Just a speculation. But to answer your direct question (which I already somewhat addressed in the first post when mentioning China Southern's 777), you need more than a D-check maintenance cycle to reverse engineer a plane. It would take years to do it.

You didn't see the reverse engineering of the downed F-117 in 1999 until around 2011. If a China Southern 777 went missing for 12 years, someone would notice eventually.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...S-fighter-develop-stealth-jet.html





Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 119):
or Russia, Japan, and North Korea.

Agreed, but Russia and North Korea are hardly forth coming. And Japan seemed like it might have been too far off, but you're probably right.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
zoom1018
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:55 am

Quoting liquidair (Reply 15):

I am not sure if it would work but why do they not attach something works like a mobile phone in the black box? The last time I read the black box could only transmit signal within 100Km or something...
 
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kann123air
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:56 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 118):
I think the issue with this is that it would have been spotted by South Korean radar (and Chinese for that matter).
Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 119):
or Russia, Japan, and North Korea.
Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 121):
But it seems impossible that a plane could fly over much of China's eastern seaboard without it being picked up by Chinese military radar, which would detect the plane regardless of the transponder's status.
Quoting 747megatop (Reply 127):
and the US military.

Agreed. What about this scenario? I brought the line just a few degrees east.

MAS370 2 by kann123air, on Flickr
Going for great
 
chrisrad
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:57 am

Why isn't this appearing on more news sites?

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 102):
According to the Mirror the Iranians intended to "migrate to Europe"

"The two passengers travelling on stolen passports on missing Malaysia Airlines
flight MH370 are reportedly Iranian nationals.

An Iranian friend of one of the men told BBC Persia he hosted the pair in Kuala Lumpur
after they arrived from Tehran in the days preceding their flight to Beijing.

The source, who claimed he knew one of the men from his school days in Iran, said the
duo had bought the fake passports because they wanted to migrate to Europe.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...F7k1f
Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:58 am

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 128):
Yeah no. Plenty of Chinese Airlines own 777s. And the government could acquire one in ways that don't involve hijacking.

I have answered above twice why I think their 777s disappearing would raise alarm bells sooner or later. In an odd way, a plane disappearing in the ocean seems more "accepting" than a missing China Southern 777 for multiple years.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 128):
Plus - if China did want it - why not wait until the plane was near Chinese Airspace? The pilot could land it in China and the gov could seal radar records.

Because there isn't a 'vast' ocean for it to disappear in.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
DeltaAtl
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:00 am

May sound stupid but has anyone tried the find my iPhone app? Like I have my daughters info if she loses hers-
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:02 am

Quoting chrisrad (Reply 132):
Why isn't this appearing on more news sites?

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 102):
According to the Mirror the Iranians intended to "migrate to Europe"

"The two passengers travelling on stolen passports on missing Malaysia Airlines
flight MH370 are reportedly Iranian nationals.

An Iranian friend of one of the men told BBC Persia he hosted the pair in Kuala Lumpur
after they arrived from Tehran in the days preceding their flight to Beijing.

The source, who claimed he knew one of the men from his school days in Iran, said the
duo had bought the fake passports because they wanted to migrate to Europe.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...F7k1f

Exactly.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
tyler81190
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:02 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 133):
Because there isn't a 'vast' ocean for it to disappear in.

Good point, but WOULD the Chinese really go to all this trouble to make a second rate copy of a 777?
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:04 am

Quoting kann123air (Reply 131):
Agreed. What about this scenario? I brought the line just a few degrees east.

more plausible, but you still going to pass close to Taiwan, the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands, and Okinawa (Major US military base).
Boiler Up!
 
tyler81190
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:05 am

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 137):
more plausible, but you still going to pass close to Taiwan, the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands, and Okinawa (Major US military base).

Unless EVERYONE is in on it to blame Iran?
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:08 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 136):
Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 133):
Because there isn't a 'vast' ocean for it to disappear in.

Good point, but WOULD the Chinese really go to all this trouble to make a second rate copy of a 777?

Also, why pick this flight?

If it was down to a breakdown of nationalities that would make such a plot look less suspicious, would the Chinese be able to determine the breakdown of nationalities on the flight well enough in advance to determine what flight to pick?
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UA787DEN
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:08 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 133):

The Chinese government owns Boeings - not 777s but they've had access to (IIRC) a 737, 747, and 767. Remember the whole mess over the bugged 767?

It wouldn't be too hard to partially reverse engineer the plane from repeated Heavy checks correct? Or, you know - Boeing Technical Documents CZ has...
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:12 am

Quoting DeltaAtl (Reply 134):

Probably because you need it to communicate in order to work.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
tyler81190
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:12 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 139):
If it was down to a breakdown of nationalities that would make such a plot look less suspicious, would the Chinese be able to determine the breakdown of nationalities on the flight well enough in advance to determine what flight to pick?

Well, all booking info would have been sent to china for Customs purposes... How far in advance is unknown. Also, if this is the case, surely they could have bribed an agent in PEK to pull the data from the RES system a few days/week in advance.
 
rfields5421
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:13 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 106):
But does MH have the system installed? If they do, it could have been inhibited from transmitting anything. If they do not have they kind of system installed, then we won't know anything.

It was the lack of transmissions which alerted Air France maintenance to look harder at the ACARS messages. And to request Air France Ops contact the aircraft. If a hijacker or a crash, inhibits an ACARS regular position reporting system - that would alert the airline that a problem exists and it is serious.


Quoting 777Jet (Reply 122):
in the area of its last known location then I would have expected some debris to be found by now

Agree. I do think the aircraft will not be found near the loss of contact point.

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 124):
Even if they switched the transponder off wouldn't there still be a target, just with no identifier? At least for the time the plane remained airborne.
Quoting nupogodi (Reply 126):
It's entirely possible that there was a primary return on military radar, and they are not sharing that with us.

An ATC systems shows a bright labeled data block for a transponder aircraft. Depending upon the filtering set - a no transponder aircraft primary return might or might not be visible. It can easily be lost in the background clutter unless the controller is actively searching for an aircraft.

Military systems are not foolproof either. Primary returns are missed every day. An additional problem is the size of the area covered by the radar screen. It is much easier to see a primary return if the radar is covering an area 20 miles in diameter than one 200 miles in diameter.

One thing I can certainly guarantee is that the tapes of the raw data form radars all around this area are being scrutinized in detail at this time. Authorities are searching for any possible signal/ return that might be from this aircraft. That includes any military radar data.

I cannot conceive of military authorities withholding data which might reveal information about this aircraft - at least from the SAR efforts.

Whether or not we are told is another issue.

Having served in the US military, I understand the need for secrecy in certain situations. But having worked in the press, I also understand very well the downside of how vicious the media will be if they find out they were kept out of the loop. And with today's internet and world wide connectivity - keeping secrets is very hard. Much harder than most folks think.


As a possible example - the aircraft is on the ground at a closed military airport and a military/ hijacker standoff is underway. Authorities are keeping up the search to confuse the hijackers and to try to keep the situation isolated for passenger safety.

That's a wild, crazy speculation. Not worth anything but a bad novel.
 
tyler81190
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:17 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 144):
As a possible example - the aircraft is on the ground at a closed military airport and a military/ hijacker standoff is underway. Authorities are keeping up the search to confuse the hijackers and to try to keep the situation isolated for passenger safety.

That's a wild, crazy speculation. Not worth anything but a bad novel.

Entirely plausible...
 
rfields5421
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:18 am

Quoting DeltaAtl (Reply 134):
May sound stupid but has anyone tried the find my iPhone app? Like I have my daughters info if she loses hers-

That only works if the phone is in contact with a cell phone network, which this aircraft was not when it disappeared.

And yes, I'm certain some folks have tried with no success.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:19 am

Quoting penguins (Reply 94):

A problem I seem to see with a lot of these theories is that even if the transponder if turned off, won't the plane still return a radar signal, just with no data. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, there should have been good coverage in that region but those radars are not high resolution military grade radars.

The press conference indicated one of the stolen passport holders looked like Mario Balotelli who is African descent.

This man to be specific:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Balotelli

Very unique looking to say the least. Not sure what to make of it.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:22 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 129):
As I stated when someone else questioned the same thing, you can't keep a 777 in a D-Check for 12 years. Sooner or later, someone is going to ask a question as to where that plane ended up.

But they could just take one from one of their airlines. They wouldn't have to tell anyone where it went. If they wanted to have it in a hangar for 12 year, that's there prerogative.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:22 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 145):
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 144):
As a possible example - the aircraft is on the ground at a closed military airport and a military/ hijacker standoff is underway. Authorities are keeping up the search to confuse the hijackers and to try to keep the situation isolated for passenger safety.

That's a wild, crazy speculation. Not worth anything but a bad novel.

Entirely plausible...

Agreed. Would also explain the type of press releases from MH.
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stuyyz
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:23 am

Next news conference at 10am... in 37mins

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