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pvjin
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:15 am

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 144):
To me, the most likely scenario is - if the flight indeed went as far as Pulau Preak - that we are faced with a Helios 522 situation. Still inexplicable though why it lost all communiatio as that points more towards a sudden crash or a deliberate act.

Yes, that's what I thought, Helios 522. A serious failure of some kind -> They turned back towards Malaysia with autopilot still on -> They got incapacitated -> The autopilot kept flying the plane?

If they don't find any parts in next couple of days I think they could as well start looking from parts of Indian Ocean, based on the last known heading of the aircraft
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:17 am

Quoting TC-MNC (Reply 150):
And what took them 3 days to detect that? More important occupation?

I think they have suspected it all the time, otherwise they would not have started the search west of Malaysia. Maybe they now have gotten confirmation from the radar manufacturer (or someone in similar position) who has examined the radar recordings in detail.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:17 am

Why the delay in reporting the correct last position?

32K feet would not explain those witnesses reporting an unusually low flight.
 
murchmo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:17 am

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/m...t-tracked-mh370-to-malacca-straits

"This is also supported with police reports made by some east coast residents, who claimed that they have seen huge lights and a plane flying at some 1000 metres above sea level off Kota Baru."
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Julian773
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:17 am

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 143):
jetfuel

Very unprofessional actions by the flight crew. The content of the video also confirms that the F/O indeed transitioned from the 737classic/NG to the 777.

Quoting na (Reply 151):


I see MAS management getting very angry. And potential passengers pretty much shocked.

Oh i agree. This looks very bad for MAS. Inviting non company employees into the flight deck and smoking. I wonder what MAS would have done if they would have seen this footage before the crash.
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:19 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 155):
Yes, that's what I thought, Helios 522. A serious failure of some kind -> They turned back towards Malaysia with autopilot still on -> They got incapacitated -> The autopilot kept flying the plane?

A possible scenario, but it doesn't explain why the transponder was turned off or failed and why there were no ACARS messages related to the loss of cabin pressure.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:19 am

Quoting murchmo (Reply 153):
Interesting they initially said 2:40am then immediately changed it to the widely discussed 1:30am. Now with the release of radar info of it in the Malaccan Straight they go back to 2:40am. This is worth questioning. This keeps getting weirder.

This is could be due to time zone differences. 01.30 Vietnam time is 02.30 Malaysia time.
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nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:19 am

Quoting na (Reply 151):
And what took them 3 days to detect that? More important occupation?

They've been searching that area for a while now, so I would say no, it took them 3 days to tell the public about it. I don't know why they're being so secretive.

I did say that PSR is going to paint a more complete picture and that military will have the best one. Now, with this information, this changes everything. Where the hell is that plane?
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:20 am

The transponder would not be turned off in any "regular" incapacitation scenario.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:22 am

Quoting murchmo (Reply 158):
"This is also supported with police reports made by some east coast residents, who claimed that they have seen huge lights and a plane flying at some 1000 metres above sea level off Kota Baru."

The claim seems to be 3K feet below normal, not 3K feet. That is, 32K feet.

You'd probably hit something at 3K feet and not make it to the straights.

[Edited 2014-03-11 04:22:48]
 
na
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:25 am

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 144):
To me, the most likely scenario is - if the flight indeed went as far as Pulau Preak - that we are faced with a Helios 522 situation. Still inexplicable though why it lost all communiatio as that points more towards a sudden crash or a deliberate act.

There indeed is some similarity. In this case originating in a structural failure of some kind disabling the transmitter and incapacitating the crew.

Quoting murchmo (Reply 158):
"This is also supported with police reports made by some east coast residents, who claimed that they have seen huge lights and a plane flying at some 1000 metres above sea level off Kota Baru."

At which time, thats crucial, and if its an unusual sighting which doesnt happen normally at that time. Otherwise its worthless.
 
liquidair
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:25 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 142):

i think this is most likely scenario- something knocked out comms and eventually lead to incapacitating the crew.

I'm going with fumes of some sort from a fire in radio comms- because 1hr20mins is a long way to fly with a fire.

although that still doesn't explain lack of communication as turn was initiated- whatever happened, i don't think it was violently catastrophic.
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s5daw
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:26 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 164):
You'd probably hit something at 3K feet and not make it to the straights.

I think the are hills up to 1800m high between west and east coast.

[Edited 2014-03-11 04:28:22]
 
slinky09
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:27 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 162):
They've been searching that area for a while now, so I would say no, it took them 3 days to tell the public about it. I don't know why they're being so secretive.

But at the same time, to devote much need SAR resources in the Gulf of Thailand shows they're not certain ... perhaps! Compared to AF447 and the availability of hard data early on, the lack of transparency and confusion here does not help at all.
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:28 am

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 137):
Now the military is saying it tracked the jet to the Strait of Malacca.

Heading straight towards SOMALIA! You couldn't make this up..
BV
 
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pvjin
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:28 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 160):
A possible scenario, but it doesn't explain why the transponder was turned off or failed and why there were no ACARS messages related to the loss of cabin pressure.

True, it's really weird. I can't see why someone would want to hijack the aircraft and fly it over Indian Ocean.

Based on positions reported so far to me it would seem like the aircraft was flying more or less towards Maldives, I wonder if it could have reached African coast if it kept flying until running out of fuel.

At least based on Google Earth it would seem like it was heading towards Maldives:

http://s7.postimg.org/wvkd7jq0r/777course.jpg



[Edited 2014-03-11 04:34:56]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:28 am

Can you safely cross back over Malaysia at 3K feet?
 
na
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:28 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 160):
why there were no ACARS messages related to the loss of cabin pressure.

According to flightglobal MAS may have a "cheap" ACARS contract were data is only transmitted every 30 minutes or so.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:32 am

If we assume that no hijacking happened, but rather something like electrical failure, what's the most probable scenario given that the whole route to PEK is programmed in the FMC?

Could it happen that an air crew, after recovering from a technical problem, initially sets the autopilot to speed: hold & heading: hold & altitude: hold, and completely forgets to use the FMC course - and thus travelling all the way eastwards over the peninsula? And also forgets to put the transponder back on?

(This would assume that they didn't watch either the true or magnetic heading - magnetic declination in that area is 0°, like in Europe.)


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LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:38 am

Why would they not search out farther along that track?

Would other radar sites have seen the plane given this new track?
 
aw70
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:39 am

Long time lurker, finally registered to join the discussion on this topic.

If the information about MH370 dropping by 3000 feet, *then* turning back, and then overflying the peninsula towards the Indian Ocean are indeed correct, this would in my opinion strongly suggest a scenario where deliberate action was taken by one of the two original pilots. Or at least someone who got more training than just flying circuits on a Cessna.

For which motive such deliberate action was taken, we can only guess. But the facts seem to be in favour of this version right now. The main reasons why I am saying this are:

- It is very hard to imagine a Helios-type malfunction that simultaneously and immediately zaps all comms and the transponder (! - that did not happen on the Helios flight), but still allows them authority to turn back while *only* dropping 3000 feet. And then staying stable and on course for such a long distance. The sightings of large aircraft at low level in the Malacca strait are as of now unconfirmed. In this regard, it would help a lot if the Malaysian military was not so un-forthcoming with information about what exactly they saw that night.

- If you think about it, dropping about 3000 feet is pretty much what you should be doing if you want to take an a/c rogue in densely traveled airspace, and have to change course to almost double back. If you go much lower, the a/c becomes much less efficient (critical if you want to go anywhere in particular, far away). If you stay the same altitude, you might end up as the bonnet decoration of some other, oncoming traffic, which tend to be much on the same altitude while travelling the same airway (not exactly, but close).

- The a/c had plenty range to fly out over the peninsula to the other side, over the Indian Ocean until all primary radar coverage was certainly lost, and then head off north or south to either somewhere in Indonesia or Bangladesh. Or to one of the many islands.

- Alternatively, if the pilot in command wanted to commit suicide in a spot where there is a genuine chance that nothing will ever be found (i.e. in the middle of the Indian Ocean), this would also be the way to do it. Why anyone would go to such lengths to do something like that is completely beyond be. But if you want an untraceable suicide by aircraft, this would be a way to do it.
 
redadeco
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:40 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 171):

Can you safely cross back over Malaysia at 3K feet?

No I don't think so because there are many >2000m summits across the peninsula.
 
David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:46 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 162):
They've been searching that area for a while now, so I would say no, it took them 3 days to tell the public about it. I don't know why they're being so secretive.

It's sounded all along to me that the evidence wasn't so positive that there was no doubt. Given that they wouldn't initially have expected the flight to be anywhere near the west coast, they may have needed some investigation to determine whether or not to follow that lead. At this point I'd tend to call it cautious rather than secretive.
 
liquidair
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:46 am

From the guardian latest

Earlier on Tuesday, Malaysia's Berita Harian newspaper quoted air force chief Rodzali Daud as saying the Malaysia Airlines plane was last detected by military radar at 2:40 a.m. on Saturday, near the island of Pulau Perak at the northern end of the Strait of Malacca. It was flying at a height of about 9,000 metres (29,500 ft), he was quoted as saying.

so there's a loss of 2,500 feet from when they turned at 32,000 ft. Significance, if any?

does it discount an autopilot heading for holding altitude?

edit- that heading really does make a straight line to Somalia. Not suggesting that's what's happened, but out of all of the possible straight line destinations....

how much is actually, not hypothesized, known about fuel on board the plane?

[Edited 2014-03-11 04:59:01]
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voodoo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:48 am

There does seem to be a layer of subtle censorship from the Malaysian govt. Perhaps its subtlety is due to a lack of certainty on their part and the feeling they have to at least appear in control. The plane turned around, as now seems evident, at the time of reaching cruise, at the vulnerable point when one pilot may head for the toilet.
The govt.may be worried if questions arise as to an apparent total unpreparedness in case it could have then headed for the KL CBD/Petronas Towers etc. Does Malaysia even have an ADIZ or an intercept SOP?
If it ended up as 'United 93' did, then the govt. needs time to formulate answers even as the answers start to come through on their own.

[Edited 2014-03-11 04:58:24]
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:51 am

but if they were flying so low for a while, why nobody used their cellphones?
 
voodoo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:53 am

Quoting liquidair (Reply 178):

so there's a loss of 2,500 feet from when they turned at 32,000 ft. Significance, if any?

Below other aircraft in area at cruise of 30k+ is my guess.
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:53 am

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 180):
but if they were flying so low for a while, why nobody used their cellphones?

I think they lost around 3000ft or so from their original altitude rather than flying at 3000ft. So they were still somewhere around 30 000ft...
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
Asiaflyer
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:56 am

Quoting damirc (Reply 154):
02:40L - MH370 vanishes from military radar (providing the target was MH370) near Palau Perak, MY in the Straits of Malacca

This fills the gap why on the first day they sad they've lost contact at 2:40L (the first "official" story was that that is when the SAR efforts was initiated. We now learn that they've tracked it until then!) What the heck? If the unknown primary target was MH370 (and I'm pretty sure they've had ample time to check and recheck in the mean time) they've wasted a lot of resources to search in the completely wrong spot.


When it vanishes from the military radar, it unfortunately seems to be the point where it crashed. You can turn off ACARS during flight, but you cant go stealth.
This together with the observations from ground that the plane possiblt was seen flying low across the peninsula points in the same direction.
Current in the straights of Malacca is very strong, makes it much more difficult to find debris this long after. As you say, time could have been wasted.
 
klebert
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:57 am

The NYT reports this morning that apparently all threads with the fake passports have been explained and terrorism on that end has been ruled out (illegal immigration attempt by an Iranian citizen into Germany being one of them).

Every explanation regarding some sort of technical or catastrophic failure has flaws (debris field missing, no communication, controlled flight without human or technical communication away from flight route but 'under the radar', etc.).
Terrorism makes no sense given the setting and the lack of any public announcement by any group.

I have looked through most reputable news sources in the US, UK, and Germany (in other words excluding CNN, The Sun, FoxNews, etc.) and I cannot find anything about the pilots other than 'co-pilot 27 years old', 'experienced pilot'.

Unless I would consider taking for a fact that the combined search efforts of at least 6 or 7 countries are completely incompetent, or there is a massive conspiracy, I fail to understand why the MS990 or SilkAir 185 aspects are not investigated more closely at least by now. Looking especially at MS990 and the role the Egyptian authorities played in the investigation regarding their state-owned airline, it would explain the silence (as far as I can tell) of the Malaysian authorities.

But maybe I am missing some article or thread. So, does anybody have a reputable(!) link to more information on the cockpit crew or down that line of thinking?
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:57 am

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 180):
but if they were flying so low for a while, why nobody used their cellphones?

Because all seemed normal for the passengers.

In the AF447 case, no F/A informed the pilots of anything... no mention of "some passengers complained about bad turbulence".

This would speak against a hijacking.

Edit: Do MH's 777s have moving map displays, thus giving the pax a clue about the huge detour?

Quoting aw70 (Reply 175):

Welcome, aw70!

I was also a long-time lurker, and it's AF447 that glued me to a.net. There's MUCH to learn from people like Starlionblue, Pihero, pilotaydin, rfields and a dozen other people...


David

[Edited 2014-03-11 04:59:53]
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EVAAIRBR076
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:58 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 182):

sorry i forgot to say that i said this to possible rule out hijacking or the flight crew flying the plane somewhere else etc, it wouldnt make sence in my opinion.
 
OV735
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:02 pm

Quoting na (Reply 151):
While that is right, there are few places where a 777 could land in that region, especially at night. A midsized and well lit place is the minimum - for a well-trained pilot. And those are easily known.

I agree that a runway with an absolute minimum of 1200-1500 metres in lenght and 30 metres in width is required, not to mention a good weight tolerance. I don't have any knowledge to say how many of such airfields are in the range of that particular aircraft with that particular fuel and weight configuration and flight profile, but my guess is that there are hundreds.

My reasoning for doubting if the aircraft has crashed is simple. Given the new information about the A/C appearing as a PSR target an hour and twenty minutes after the SSR target disappeared, it's clear to me that the plane is in a flyable condition, eg no fuel leak, no fire, no in-flight breakup. Whether any of the people on board were alive and conscious or not, is not known of course. Again the evidence to support either theory is thin and circumstantial.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 166):
i think this is most likely scenario- something knocked out comms and eventually lead to incapacitating the crew.

I'm going with fumes of some sort from a fire in radio comms- because 1hr20mins is a long way to fly with a fire.

although that still doesn't explain lack of communication as turn was initiated- whatever happened, i don't think it was violently catastrophic.

I find this plausible, however in this case, 1) while the transponder and radio equipment malfunctioned, the autopilot must have stayed operational and 2) the crew would still have been able to use crew oxygen and gotten lower than FL320 (which is what the PSR data seems to suggest) in a hurry to get back to the ground on the suspicion of an on-board fire. A possible explanation is that even with oxygen supply, the fumes disabled the eyesight of the crew as well, rendering them incapable of action.

If this is the case, the entire search effort is in the wrong part of the planet. We have the loadsheet and operational flight plan with fuel figures in KUL, we have the estimated fuel burn figures, we have the estimated track of the aircraft based on the last SSR position and the PSR track, and we have the upper wind charts for the period. It should all add up to a vector that points to a possible area where the aircraft might have impacted the ocean after fuel starvation (I'd estimate somewhere between the southward projections of the southern tip of the Indian peninsula and the eastern tip of the Horn of Africa.

Given the size of the possible area, the oceanic currents and the fact that more than four days have passed, it's obviously going to be like finding a needle in a haystack.
 
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Owleye
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:04 pm

Quoting liquidair (Reply 178):
at 2:40 a.m. on Saturday, near the island of Pulau Perak at the northern end of the Strait of Malacca

Totally off planned route....!!
 
theaviator380
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:04 pm

If they went West over Malaysia towards Malacca, how come outward traffic from KUL didn't notice MS370 in their vicinity?

I guess Radar on board can detect other flying objects around them (obviously up to certain radius around)?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:05 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 135):
They had this bleep on their screen flying across the country and no jets were scrambled and the aircraft disappeared?

It takes time for these alerts to filter through and you can't scramble for every lost comms situation because they do happen not too infrequently. While "across the country" sounds like a long way, the Malaysian peninsula is rather narrow. Short flight at cruise speeds. By the time you start really worrying, an airliner would already be across.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 145):
Military would shoot down a jet if it was a threat, that's the whole point. Cold war or not.

You have to establish that it's a threat first. Posit the following hypothetical scenario. A 777 from the national airline, registered in Malaysia, disappears from radar over Malaysian airspace. Are you worried? Not really. "Probably just a malfunction". "It's our own guys." 25 minutes later you can't find it. Now you start worrying, but by then it could be over the Straits of Malacca. You didn't scramble fighters yet because as threat scenarios go, a 777 from the national airline dropping off radar would rank rather low. Any observers are probably still thinking comms or radar malfunction.

Quoting westjet_737 (Reply 149):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 127):
Ever since the British Airtours fire way a few decades ago it is 'very hard to set any fittings on fire in an aircraft. All the fabric and stuff is flame retardant. You might char or melt a small spot with a cigarette, but you couldn't start a fire with a cigarette.

Also, why would they turn off their transponder in this situation?

Perhaps a it started in a bag or garbage can? I guess it would require outside items to feed the initial spread. I would also assume then that the relative low-heat fire caused in these situations would probably not ignite anything in the cabin either?

You might build a fire with paper and stuff in a garbage receptacle, but it would take a lot to actually make it dangerous to the plane. Pax and crew would notice and extinguish. If in a bathroom there are fire alarms. In the cockpit the flight crew would notice.

Cargo fires, on the other hand, are an entirely different kettle of fish. A nightmare scenario.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 173):
Could it happen that an air crew, after recovering from a technical problem, initially sets the autopilot to speed: hold & heading: hold & altitude: hold, and completely forgets to use the FMC course - and thus travelling all the way eastwards over the peninsula? And also forgets to put the transponder back on?

I can somewhat buy disorientation from hypoxia, but not turning the transponder off.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 185):
There's MUCH to learn from people like Starlionblue, Pihero, pilotaydin, rfields and a dozen other people...

Thank you flyingturtle. That's very flattering. I would note, however that I would not consider myself even a junior member of the experienced pilot and tech group. Some of those guys have been flying for forty years! I've been a member for over ten years, and I learned very many things here on airliners.nut, but I have only recently taken my pilot's licenses in the real world. I am happy to plod along and share but I am frequently lacking in depth of knowledge that comes from experience and the more advanced licenses.

[Edited 2014-03-11 05:10:37]

[Edited 2014-03-11 05:12:09]

[Edited 2014-03-11 05:14:20]

[Edited 2014-03-11 05:16:48]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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garpd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:06 pm

So, what he have now is a statement from the authorities that indicates a radar return travelling from this flights last known position, over Malaysia and out of radar contact over the Indian Ocean.

If that radar return was indeed the missing 777, I can only think of two explanations: Incapacitation of all on board or a silent hijacking.

[Edited 2014-03-11 05:19:45]
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traveladdict
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:07 pm

What does everyone make of this?

http://mh370lost.tumblr.com/?og=1
 
slinky09
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:07 pm

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 180):
but if they were flying so low for a while, why nobody used their cellphones?

Or if this route is correct, what did they say to the passengers ... does Malaysian's AVOD have a live flight map (I checked their website and it seems a comprehensive system but doesn't specifically mention a live map)?

In many cultures in Asia loss of face is a big issue, I am wondering if the military know what happened and are buying time.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:08 pm

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 189):
I guess Radar on board can detect other flying objects around them (obviously up to certain radius around)?

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No, but airliners certainly can't do that. This detection (TCAS) relies on ADS-B broadcasts (which were turned off in MH370). Airliners only have weather radars which are unsuited to detect other aircraft.

Edit: Plus the radar altimeter, which *could* detect a plane flying beneath you. Big grin



David

[Edited 2014-03-11 05:12:51]
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
imatams
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:42 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:10 pm

I'm thinking that right now 2 very distinct scenario's are emerging:

The 'eastern' scenario: The aircraft did NOT cross the Malay peninsula and did indeed come down in the Gulf of Thailand/ South China Sea. In this case any speculation of what caused it is just that, other than it must have been a sudden and catastrophic event

The 'western' scenario: The aircraft DID cross the peninsula in (some sort of) controlled flight. In this case, to me, all reasons other than foul play seem VERY far-fetched to me. Then we would have to assume ALL radio, ACARS, and ADS-B failed but the aircraft was able to maintain level flight. No attempt at landing was made even though suitable airports were not far off.

With the fake passport link to terrorism how pretty much dismissed by everyone including Interpol, and the awareness of what hijackers can and will do after 9/11, I find it hard to imagine a 'western' scenario without some sort of foul play by the flight crew. At least one that doesn't include very far-fetched assuptions.

That said, reality has often proven stranger than fiction, so who knows.. Although I must say I can't see it having ended with some kind of landing somewhere. You can't land a 777 in a field and cover it with a tarpaulin.. you need a good-sized runway for that..
 
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pvjin
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:10 pm

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 183):
When it vanishes from the military radar, it unfortunately seems to be the point where it crashed. You can turn off ACARS during flight, but you cant go stealth.

What if the aircraft simply flew out of that military radar's range?
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
michi
Posts: 265
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:12 pm

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 189):
I guess Radar on board can detect other flying objects around them (obviously up to certain radius around)?

No! The "radar" on board of civilian aircraft is a weather radar only.

The system for collision avoidance (TCAS) is using transponder information or ADS-B/C data. This system wasn't working anymore for whatever reason on MH370.
 
klebert
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:33 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:12 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 193):
In many cultures in Asia loss of face is a big issue, I am wondering if the military know what happened and are buying time.

Not just in Asia. Again, look at MS990 and the reaction throughout by the Egyptian authorities. I think it has more to do with gvmt-owned entities (airlines in this case), status of 'flagship airline', etc. than with culture.
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:12 pm

Quoting traveladdict (Reply 192):
What does everyone make of this?

http://mh370lost.tumblr.com/?og=1

200ER not listed in the Boeing doc, iirc.

"This AD applies to The Boeing Company Model 777-200, -200LR, -
300, -300ER, and -777F series airplanes, certificated in any
category, as identified in Boeing Alert Service Bulletin 777-
53A0068, dated June 12, 2013."

[Edited 2014-03-11 05:13:17]
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:14 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 196):
What if the aircraft simply flew out of that military radar's range?

Yeah, that's why I wondered about the search not extending along the track.
 
speedbird128
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Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:30 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:15 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 194):
This detection (TCAS) relies on ADS-B broadcasts

No it doesnt. TCAS is independant of ADS-B. TCAS functions off a regular Mode-A/C transponder...
A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
 
aw70
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:20 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:15 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 196):
What if the aircraft simply flew out of that military radar's range?

Or, more specifically, what if the Malaysian military does not want to admit that some of their primary radar stations were inoperable that night? Say, those which look out over the Malacca strait? Might well have been the case, and it would not be abnormal or anything. Radars need regular maintenance, and such. But admitting this now, after so many days, would make the Malaysian Air Force look like they are less than perfectly competent, so they might be reluctant to actually say so.
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:16 pm

As someone else probably proposed, after an emergency the pilots could have turned back towards KUL and flown over the South Andaman and Strait of Malacca dumping fuel, troubleshooting, etc. Initially, I have wondered why they might not have chosen a closer airport, but the severity of their emergency might not have been clear. Also, in other accidents, there has been proposed a tendency for some pilots to want to get to their home airport/maintenance base or destination, and not a random airfield where there is no airline/maintenance support.

There really isn't any more to talk about on this topic at this time, with so little information.

Quoting Voodoo (Reply 179):
There does seem to be a layer of subtle censorship from the Malaysian govt. Perhaps its subtlety is due to a lack of certainty on their part and the feeling they have to at least appear in control.

This...
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:18 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 194):
This detection (TCAS) relies on ADS-B broadcasts (which were turned off in MH370).

Only some TCAS integrates ADS-B broadcasts, apparently they call this 'hybrid surveillance': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic...surveillance-broadcast_.28ADS-B.29

Otherwise it is just using transponder info.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.

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