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teo747
Posts: 123
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:23 am

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 342):
Folks, those are very clearly whales. The one on the left is a calf and the one on the right is likely its mother. Not sure of the species but they are definitely baleen whales. Look at the v-shape indention on the front (towards the top left), corresponding to the long ridge along the top of the skull, and you can clearly see areas of greater contrast around the blowhole on the smaller specimen. The small "cloud" may even be blowhole blast.

I don't think the picture found on Tomnod is clearly or obviously anything, and hopefully it is followed up on unless there are more detailed images available that identify the object as something as other than an airplane. While I intuitively think it unlikely that the plane would have gone into the water as intact as the object shown on the image, it does have enough similarities that it would seem to be as much of a possibility as any of the other crazy theories being thrown out there. Particularly, the appearance of a possible portion of the right wing in the image that matches very well with the 777 overlay is somewhat intriguing.
 
socalgeo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting damirc (Reply 273):
Quoting phantomx18 (Reply 263):http://cmd0.com/images/plane.gifHas anyone figured out yet the coordinates for this map image?7.55708N, 103.229215E if I'm correct.Approx [email protected] deg from the initial SAR position.D.

Here is that location on my map...not sure about the gif image though...if the coords are correct, and the image is recent, then it seems like its worth investigating...





Map Link:http://sandbox.maps.arcgis.com/apps/OnePane/basicviewer/index.html?appid=95cbede59b3e471eb14b52c362966934

SoCalGeo
 
speedbird128
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:27 am

Quoting acabgd (Reply 349):
I don't really see the point in ACARS discussion

Then don't discuss it.

I was merely answering the very repetitive queries about this and that regarding ACARS with facts.
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phantomx18
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:28 am

Quoting socalgeo (Reply 353):

You would think that this would be as simple as seeing if the object is in todays satellite image, to figure out if it is clouds, a ship, whales, or a plane.

Hopefully someone is already on it.
 
Gatorman96
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:28 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 332):
The transponder responds to radar queries. In practical terms it sends out information once a second.

Simplifying here, but there are three basic levels.
- Mode A. Just a response saying "I'm here" with the code, which shows secondary radar where it is.
- Mode C. The above plus pressure altitude reporting.
- Mode S (ADS-B). The above plus speed, heading and lots of other info. Not all is transmitted or received necessarily.

In the case of most modern airliners, they're using Mode S (ADS-B(, so you're getting all of it.

Awesome, thanks! So, if they are out of the range of radar, wouldn't that mimic the transponder being turned "off." I can't imagine the center of the Gulf of Thailand has radar coverage, meaning there is nothing to query the transponder.
 
acabgd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:30 am

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 354):
Quoting acabgd (Reply 349):
I don't really see the point in ACARS discussion

Then don't discuss it.

You don't really have to be rude. And you could also quote the whole post, as this is pretty much taken out of context.
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virgin744
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:32 am

I'm sure it may have already been suggested/asked, (cant be bothered to check through over 1000 posts) but does anybody know if the Malaysian authorities have visited the flight crew's homes to go through their computers and personal belongings to ascertain if they could have been going through personal problems? Maybe some clues could arise that indicate if either of them were having suicidal tendencies or had the idea to sabotage the plane etc...?

Has it been reported if the authorities have checked this angle yet?
If so can someone post a link please?
 
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jetfuel
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:33 am

The stream of news and rumors is ridiculous

Malaysia's air force chief denied a media report that the military last tracked a missing Malaysia Airlines jetliner over the Strait of Malacca, far from where it last made contact with civilian air traffic control when it disappeared four days ago.


"I wish to state that I did not make any such statements," air force chief Rodzali Daud said in a statement on Wednesday.
Malaysia air force denies tracking missing jet to Strait of Malacca
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:36 am

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 356):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 332):
The transponder responds to radar queries. In practical terms it sends out information once a second.

Simplifying here, but there are three basic levels.
- Mode A. Just a response saying "I'm here" with the code, which shows secondary radar where it is.
- Mode C. The above plus pressure altitude reporting.
- Mode S (ADS-B). The above plus speed, heading and lots of other info. Not all is transmitted or received necessarily.

In the case of most modern airliners, they're using Mode S (ADS-B(, so you're getting all of it.

Awesome, thanks! So, if they are out of the range of radar, wouldn't that mimic the transponder being turned "off." I can't imagine the center of the Gulf of Thailand has radar coverage, meaning there is nothing to query the transponder.

If a plane is out of range of secondary radar, there is no radar to receive transmissions so in that way it is the equivalent of "standby" or "off". However the transponder would still work in the TCAS (traffic collision and avoidance system) function since that uses plane-to-plane transponder transmissions and is not dependent on ground stations.

As you say, the Gulf of Thailand has radar coverage at cruise altitudes. You can see the planes on FlightRadar24 right now. http://www.flightradar24.com/6.93,103.59/6
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
laddb
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:37 am

To me to Tomnod image is two ships tied up together. Search around Signapore with google maps and you will see plenty of large ships next to a slightly smaller one.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:37 am

Here is what we know regarding the last segments of communication:

[1] The plane disappeared from secondary radar 1:21 a.m. Saturday while flying at 35,000 feet over the Gulf of Thailand; Malaysia Airlines has said that the last radio communication with the pilots was at about 1:30 a.m., but has not given a precise time.

[2] According to a military general the aircraft changed course after Kota Bharu and the last sign of the plane was recorded at 2:40 a.m., and the aircraft was then near Pulau Perak, an island more than 100 miles off the western shore of the Malaysian peninsula flying at a height of about 9,000 meters (about 27,000 feet)

[3] Civilian authorities are downplaying the general's observations (why would they do that?)

So the airplane flew at least another hour and 20 minutes at a fairly high altitude changing heading from NE to West.

Hypoxia Theory: Unlikely. Why would they turn the transponders off?
Major Breakdown: Probable. A bomb or a fire may have taken out the electrical system and this would explain the loss of communications and navigation. The pilots may have controlled the aircraft for a while until they lost control due to loss of instruments or further breakdown. But given it is now four days, they should have seen pieces of wreckage by now near the last sightings.
Hijacking. Possible. The fact that the transponders went off and the plane kept flying for an hour is one thing to think about. No distress call. No wreckage after 4 days and the civilian authorities disputing what the military observed in their own radars is concerning. Is there something the civilian team knows?

If no signs of wreckage are found by week's end, I am sticking to my hijacking theory likely carried out by one of the crew members.. Flying this airplane to Somalia is another 1500 nautical miles of fuel which the 777 most likely had. After 9/11 anything is possible. Even using a 777 as a delivery system for a dirty bomb.
Only the paranoid survive
 
socalgeo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:37 am

Quoting phantomx18 (Reply 355):
You would think that this would be as simple as seeing if the object is in todays satellite image, to figure out if it is clouds, a ship, whales, or a plane.

Hopefully someone is already on it.

Its alot of work to take the raw data that is coming off of the sensor and process it into the geolocated mosaics that you see on web maps like Zillow or Bing. Cloud cover, snow cover, color consistency, lots of things to work through. I'll bet that the team at DigitalGlobe is working hard tonight trying to push the imagery through the pipes... Ive seen this type of stuff on oil spills in the past and its not easy. Its pretty amazing to me that they are getting these images out there this quickly at all. Hopefully it will make a difference.

SoCalGeo
 
speedbird128
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:40 am

Quoting acabgd (Reply 357):

I'm sorry if it came across as rude. I'll quote the rest of your post.

Quoting acabgd (Reply 349):
It is useless in determining the fate or this airliner with what we know now.

We *know* actually incredibly little. Apart from one thing - a 777-200ER is gone.

14 threads of replies have been very little more than wild speculation. Some of it passed sublime and ridiculous into a whole new category. It's probably likely 1 of them have been right though. I didn't tell anybody that discussing X or Y or Z was useless.

So instead of adding more fiction, I was just adding a logic circuit as to why (apart from engine parameters) nothing came from the on-board ACARS...

[Edited 2014-03-11 18:43:37]
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jourdan747
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:43 am

Is anyone considering this a pilot suicide? I remember an Egypt Air pilot committed suicide and crashed the 767, as well as there was a recent pilot suicide in Africa.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:45 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 362):
[2] According to a military general the aircraft changed course after Kota Bharu and the last sign of the plane was recorded at 2:40 a.m., and the aircraft was then near Pulau Perak, an island more than 100 miles off the western shore of the Malaysian peninsula flying at a height of about 9,000 meters (about 27,000 feet)

[3] Civilian authorities are downplaying the general's observations (why would they do that?)

The general says he never said that: http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...issing-jet-strait-malacca-20140312

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 362):
After 9/11 anything is possible. Even using a 777 as a delivery system for a dirty bomb.

That seems like a very complex way to go about acquiring such a delivery system when any number of smaller business jets parked at various airports would do the job just as well. Much less effort than trying to steal a 777 in flight in a well-traveled area, and the whole thing could be done a bit more "discreetly".

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 362):
If no signs of wreckage are found by week's end, I am sticking to my hijacking theory likely carried out by one of the crew members.. Flying this airplane to Somalia is another 1500 nautical miles of fuel which the 777 most likely had.

Somalia would be one option in this scenario, but it is a bit of a stretch range-wise. If you're going to hijack, why are you taking a Malaysian plane and going to Somalia. There are plenty of places with unrest much closer. Indonesia and The Philippines come to mind.

All just idle speculation of course.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:47 am

Quoting jourdan747 (Reply 365):
Is anyone considering this a pilot suicide? I remember an Egypt Air pilot committed suicide and crashed the 767, as well as there was a recent pilot suicide in Africa.

We have spoken about it multiple times in multiple threads including this one. I know it is hard to skim everything but at least do a simple "ctrl-f" text search for suicide...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
aseem
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:54 am

The most convincing explanation so far...


"Darby, for one, believes purely mechanical issues remain the most valid possibility now. His main point is: "Everything is electrical." In other words, if there's some sort of "catastrophic failure" for whatever reason, that could knock out systems like the transponder.
If that would happen, the plane could fly for some time without electricity but not indefinitely. Any attempts to steer it would be harder in the dark without functioning flight instruments said Darby, a retired United captain."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/11/world/...irlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

rgds
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TreeHillRavens
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:00 am

Quoting polnebmit (Reply 30):
What was 9M-MRO layover time in KUL before the incident flight? Where did it fly in from before the incident flight?

About 6 hours 26 minutes.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 40):
MH371 PEK-KUL before going back out on MH370.

No. It did not because the flight opeating into PEK from KUL on March 8th, 2014 never landed.

Quoting Megatop747-412 (Reply 51):
According to FR24 I seemed that 9M-MRO did the exact same routing the say before it's disappearance, I.e. It did MH370 KUL - PEK in the early hours of 7th March, and operated the return sector PEK - KUL as MH371, arriving back in KUL around 15:40 that day. It doesn't seem to have been utilised until it operated the ill fated MH370 on the early hours of the next morning.

I know FR24 is hardly accurate, but this was what I was able to locate...

So if FR24 is indeed correct, it seemed that MRO's layover time in KUL before operating MH370 that disappeared was around 9 hours...

No. It did not. Last flight before 9M-MRO operated KUL-PEK was HKG back to KUL.

Quoting polnebmit (Reply 60):
I'm sorry something does not add up here and I may be reading into this too much. How is the flight to PEK (9M-MRO being the scheduled aircraft) on the day prior to the incident cancelled but then it shows that same aircraft (9M-MRO) carrying out the flight back to KUL from PEK hours before the incident flight? If 9M-MRO did not go to PEK in the first place the day before its dissapearance, it most likely means that it was on the ground for over 24 hours before the incident flight. Mechanical issues?
Quoting polnebmit (Reply 86):
I understand. But how do you have 9M-MRO flying PEK-KUL that day as MH371 when it never even left KUL the previous day because the flight was cancelled (MH-370 on 6-Mar-2014)?

The last sector 9M-MRO operated is HKG-KUL and it landed at KUL at 6.15pm local time, 10 minutes ahead of schedule.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:00 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 366):
The general says he never said that: http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...40312

So where did such detail then come from. Is he being told to shut up?

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 366):
That seems like a very complex way to go about acquiring such a delivery system when any number of smaller business jets parked at various airports would do the job just as well.

Not many business jets have the range or destructive capacity of a 777.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 366):
Somalia would be one option in this scenario, but it is a bit of a stretch range-wise.

Not at all. It is a good location to to fly out of, be less visible to radar and can take the longer over water route if the final destination is the US

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 366):
If you're going to hijack, why are you taking a Malaysian plane and going to Somalia.

Maybe because it was the softest place in terms of security, access, and get away
Only the paranoid survive
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:04 am

Quoting aseem (Reply 368):
If that would happen, the plane could fly for some time without electricity but not indefinitely. Any attempts to steer it would be harder in the dark without functioning flight instruments said Darby, a retired United captain."

Wouldn't there be some light out there, somewhere? I'd imagine the pilots would try and get some kind of reference point even if it's a single ship they can circle around for a bit and try and whip out their cell phones and call for help.

I'm no 777 electrical system expert but I am not sure there is a single spot that could kill the engine generators, the APU generator, and the multiple batteries. I would think at least one back up flight display and radio would function.

Other than that, it's a somewhat valid theory, but it still has its holes
 
trex8
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:07 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 371):
Wouldn't there be some light out there, somewhere? I'd imagine the pilots would try and get some kind of reference point even if it's a single ship they can circle around for a bit and try and whip out their cell phones and call for help.

You need cell towers and coverage for cellphones to work. Tens of miles from the coast you aren't likely to get anything!
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:08 am

Quoting acabgd (Reply 310):
Quoting 747megatop (Reply 158):
I recollect that there was a Egyptair T7 cockpit fire on the ground. Could a similar fire have knocked out all electronics in the cockpit?

And left absolutely no debris anywhere? If there was such a fire the plane would be unflyable, crew incapacitated (see SR111) and would most probably plunge into the sea near the point of loss of contact. Sea is so shallow there that you might as well have a wing sticking out of the water surface. There's so much ship traffic it would be almost impossible not to notice anything.

A plane will fly relatively straight and relatively level without a pilot. It must be proven that an airplane can do this for certification. So just because there is a fire, or the pilots are unconscious, or the engines stop does not meant the airplane will magically fall out of the air. Fire will only cause that to occur of it weakens the aircraft to the point where the airplane is falling apart.

FAR 25.175

(b) Cruise. Static longitudinal stability must be shown in the cruise condition as follows:
(1) With the landing gear retracted at high speed, the stick force curve must have a stable slope at all speeds within a range which is the greater of 15 percent of the trim speed plus the resulting free return speed range, or 50 knots plus the resulting free return speed range, above and below the trim speed (except that the speed range need not include speeds less than 1.3 V SR 1, nor speeds greater than V FC /M FC, nor speeds that require a stick force of more than 50 pounds), with—
(i) The wing flaps retracted;
(ii) The center of gravity in the most adverse position (see § 25.27);
(iii) The most critical weight between the maximum takeoff and maximum landing weights;
(iv) 75 percent of maximum continuous power for reciprocating engines or for turbine engines, the maximum cruising power selected by the applicant as an operating limitation (see § 25.1521), except that the power need not exceed that required at V MO/M MO; and
(v) The airplane trimmed for level flight with the power required in paragraph (b)(1)(iv) of this section.

[Edited 2014-03-11 19:11:32]
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EMA747
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:11 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 371):
Other than that, it's a somewhat valid theory, but it still has its holes

I'm not disagreeing at all but just pointing out that that applies to most of the theories at the moment. I was discussing this with my aviation friends and we all agreed that apart from the really silly theories all the other ones are both credible and have holes in them. Shows how little we still know.
Failing doesn’t make you a failure. Giving up and refusing to try again does!
 
asetiadi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:11 am

Boeing and Airbus should made a permanent transponder that cannot be turned off by any means. This way should the transponder went off then we know something went wrong with the plane.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:15 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 372):
You need cell towers and coverage for cellphones to work. Tens of miles from the coast you aren't likely to get anything!

Well yeah, I meant I'd use that light as a frame of reference and try to find another one and hopefully get to shore. Never flown over this area during the night time so maybe even at cruise altitude you wouldn't be able to see any light. I just don't see the pilots completely losing all frame of reference. Then again, vertigo kills
 
DeltaAtl
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:25 am

 
spacecadet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:25 am

Quoting PW100 (Reply 305):
I think they DID just that. It was reported here that one of officials said during a press conference on day two or three, that he himself dialed such a number and got nothing. It was debunked already at a press conference.

Yeah, I saw that, but saying you called one phone and it went straight to voicemail isn't the same as saying you contacted the cell phone companies and had them check all the passengers' phones activity.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
lazybones
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:31 am

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 313):
See reply 289. (just 13 back from your post).

Cheers mate, I missed that one. And yes it makes perfect sense.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 371):
I'm no 777 electrical system expert but I am not sure there is a single spot that could kill the engine generators, the APU generator, and the multiple batteries. I would think at least one back up flight display and radio would function.

An electrical fire near the cockpit could. SwissAir 111 (SR111) flew for 20-30 minutes after the fire was first noticed. Add to that if the pilots become disorientated with multiple failures, they might make a fatal mistake themselves.
 
PHX787
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:31 am

I missed parts 9 up until now, so forgive me for being blatant, but I've heard rumors that the plane could have been taken somewhere else (FOX News brought up an online rumor about it going to Iran), do any of the rumors thus far have any sort of standing, or are all of us still completely lost?
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flood
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:32 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 261):
I took the pic of an info card in the seat pocket while flying on 9M-MRG in June 2011, which, according to the info card, was the only MH 777 (so far) to have in-flight mobile phone call making technology installed. That was almost 3 years ago, so I would assume it had been installed on their other 777s?

Apparently not, as according to CNN:
"Malaysia Airlines' ISP AeroMobile tells CNN's @aaroncooperdc that #MH370 "was never fitted with the AeroMoible service."
http://twitter.com/thompatterson/status/443424243834187777

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 376):
I meant I'd use that light as a frame of reference and try to find another one and hopefully get to shore. Never flown over this area during the night time so maybe even at cruise altitude you wouldn't be able to see any light.

There was a theory in another forum that they may have turned back to overfly the peninsula and, using lights as reference, then planned to turn South to fly along the coast - eventually hitting Kuala Lumpur for an approach into KUL.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:33 am

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 375):

Boeing and Airbus should made a permanent transponder that cannot be turned off by any means. This way should the transponder went off then we know something went wrong with the plane.

We've been through this. An electrical component that cannot be turned off with a switch or circuit breaker is a safety hazard. Creating a transponder that cannot be switched might (note "might") have helped in this extremely rare case, but the downside is that it creates a significant safety risk in a large number of much more likely cases. As a pilot I wouldn't want to get on a plane where I can't turn off a component if needed. What if you get electrical arcing and an electrical fire in the transponder electrics. Do you really want to remove the ability to switch the thing off and pull the breaker?

You can't predict every action by the crew or mechanical event. The simple fact that we are discussing this at such length indicates how incredibly rare this kind of event is nowadays. There's no foolproof way to travel but I'd get on an MH plane tomorrow without qualms.

[Edited 2014-03-11 19:36:45]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
jcxroberts
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:35 am

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 255):

When you are out of oxygen it is easy to make mistakes and become disoriented. That could account for any of the anomalies bothering people. There wouldn't be time necessarily to make a MayDay call for one. Apart from kidnapping, a iteration of the Payne Stewart crash explains the plane tracking far away from the point of last radar contact.
 
ikramerica
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:38 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 380):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 382):
Creating a transponder that cannot be switched might have helped in this extremely rare case, but the downside is that it creates a significant safety risk in a large number of much more likely cases.

I do not buy this argument. Encapsulate the battery, add fire suppression. It should be considered a mission critical, fail safe system.

Alternately, should it ever be turned off, it should first send out a distress signal. In other words, you can't turn it off without someone outside the aircraft knowing about it.
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Web500sjc
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:44 am

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 375):
Boeing and Airbus should made a permanent transponder that cannot be turned off by any means. This way should the transponder went off then we know something went wrong with the plane.
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 382):
What if you get electrical arcing and an electrical fire in the transponder electrics.

Then the only way to stop the arcing to the transponder would be to shut everything off, instruments, batteries, generators and all - hence the need for circuit breakers. there will never be an electrical component that can't be disabled in flight by someone on the airplane.

Circuit breakers give crew the ultimate system to choose what must be on and what is can be turned off. Circuit breakers are there for everything from the generator to the CVR and the back up attitude indicator- they can be pulled in flight and they can be reset, they are a failsafe on/off switch.

edit

mods- this thread is getting a bit long...

end edit

[Edited 2014-03-11 19:45:54]
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gulfstream650
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:45 am

Quoting flood (Reply 381):
There was a theory in another forum that they may have turned back to overfly the peninsula and, using lights as reference, then planned to turn South to fly along the coast - eventually hitting Kuala Lumpur for an approach into KUL.

That has been my theory too. Simple old school ground reference navigation following an epic electrical failure. Let's hope at least that that was their plan and that the other theft/hijack ones are unfounded. That being said, it would mean that they would all be dead.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:47 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 384):
I do not buy this argument. Encapsulate the battery, add fire suppression. It should be considered a mission critical, fail safe system.

Alternately, should it ever be turned off, it should first send out a distress signal. In other words, you can't turn it off without someone outside the aircraft knowing about it.

Why? Even that could fail. I'd much rather be able to shut off anything than have the pilot that could just nose down and destroy the airplane not be able to shut off the transponder first.
 
asetiadi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:48 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 384):
Alternately, should it ever be turned off, it should first send out a distress signal. In other words, you can't turn it off without someone outside the aircraft knowing about it.

I am with you on this part.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:49 am

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 386):

That has been my theory too. Simple old school ground reference navigation following an epic electrical failure. Let's hope at least that that was their plan and that the other theft/hijack ones are unfounded. That being said, it would mean that they would all be dead.

They have a regular old fashioned compass, should have been able to make a pretty straight line back to KUL I would think. Assuming they could control the plane.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:50 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 384):

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 380):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 382):
Creating a transponder that cannot be switched might have helped in this extremely rare case, but the downside is that it creates a significant safety risk in a large number of much more likely cases.

I do not buy this argument. Encapsulate the battery, add fire suppression. It should be considered a mission critical, fail safe system.

Alternately, should it ever be turned off, it should first send out a distress signal. In other words, you can't turn it off without someone outside the aircraft knowing about it.

Adding complexity and risk to a system for a one in a billion possibility is not only economically indefensible. It is heading in the wrong direction. Essentially you're making all flights just a bit more risky for the extremely remote possibility that it might perhaps help in a once in a lifetime event.

Complete waste of money without making flights any safer.

If you're going to spend money on tracking, increased real-time transmission capability is a much better avenue. That's why it is already happening with ADS-B and ACARS.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 385):
Then the only way to stop the arcing to the transponder would be to shut everything off, instruments, batteries, generators and all - hence the need for circuit breakers. there will never be an electrical component that can't be disabled in flight by someone on the airplane.

Circuit breakers give crew the ultimate system to choose what must be on and what is can be turned off. Circuit breakers are there for everything from the generator to the CVR and the back up attitude indicator- they can be pulled in flight and they can be reset, they are a failsafe on/off switch.

     

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 388):
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 384):
Alternately, should it ever be turned off, it should first send out a distress signal. In other words, you can't turn it off without someone outside the aircraft knowing about it.

I am with you on this part.

Off should mean off. As flight crew I don't want a component to be able to decide not to turn itself off quite yet. Otherwise you're missing the whole point of the circuit breaker.

The sudden absence of a transponder signal is a signal in itself, as amply demonstrated by this very event.

[Edited 2014-03-11 19:53:03]
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cschleic
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:51 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 384):
I do not buy this argument. Encapsulate the battery, add fire suppression. It should be considered a mission critical, fail safe system.

Then it most likely would be the only system on the plane that couldn't be turned off. What's next, prevent engine shutdown so someone can't let it glide down and ditch? There are many more "mission critical, fail safe" systems on a plane than the transponder. Encapsulate the battery? But there would need to be wires outside the battery powering the system. Could have a fire. Fire suppression? It would have to be...automatic, since the transponder is isolated. What if that system experiences a fire, or fails?

While I'm only a private pilot, a fire - electrical or otherwise - would be one of the most concerning events. To protect myself and passengers, I would want to be able to turn off everything to reduce the chance of fire and increase the chance of having time and options to land the plane. I've read many quotes by pilots who say the thing that concerns them the most, in terms of possible problems, is fire.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 384):
Alternately, should it ever be turned off, it should first send out a distress signal. In other words, you can't turn it off without someone outside the aircraft knowing about it.

This makes a lot more sense.

The thing about transponders, though, is they return a signal after being interrogated by radar. If a plane is outside radar range, would it receive the signal in the first place, to which it would respond?

[Edited 2014-03-11 19:55:39]

[Edited 2014-03-11 19:57:49]
 
vnangia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:51 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 380):

This has been discussed. While it's not yet possible to rule out a hijacking, the level of obsession with Iran that Fox ... "News" has knows no bounds, including reality. Assuming that the supposed hijacker directly flew the plane from the last known position, assuming the plane did not crash from fuel exhaustion around the India/Pakistan border, the flight would be picked up by Thai, Bangladeshi, Indian, Pakistani, and Afghani radar, overfly India (which would attempt to force down the jet) and Pakistan (which _would_ shoot down an unidentified jet flying from India into Pakistan). So yeah, sure, I suppose it's possible in the same way that it's possible I'm standing in your house this very second typing this message, but somehow reality seems to intervene in this Fox "News" circlejerking as it does in every single case.

[Edited 2014-03-11 19:55:53]
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 386):
That has been my theory too. Simple old school ground reference navigation following an epic electrical failure.

Jives up with my general idea of what happened, did they fly over a unpopulated part of the country and completely miss the coast because there were no lights?

and just a further point, if it was a complete electrical failure, the CVR and FDR would have stopped recording- same thing would have happened if a hijacker or pilot pulled the circuit breakers.
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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:56 am

Quoting flood (Reply 381):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 261):
I took the pic of an info card in the seat pocket while flying on 9M-MRG in June 2011, which, according to the info card, was the only MH 777 (so far) to have in-flight mobile phone call making technology installed. That was almost 3 years ago, so I would assume it had been installed on their other 777s?

Apparently not, as according to CNN:
"Malaysia Airlines' ISP AeroMobile tells CNN's @aaroncooperdc that #MH370 "was never fitted with the AeroMoible service."
http://twitter.com/thompatterson/status/443424243834187777

Interesting. Maybe it was only installed on MRG for trial purposes and they did not install it on any other aircraft or just installed it on a select few?

From the AeroMobile Wiki page (yes, I know about credibility and Wiki): "November 2008 Malaysia Airlines become the first air carrier in Asia to launch trial of in-flight GSM service Malaysia Airlines B777-200"

So perhaps they are just saying that 9M-MRO was not fitted with the service.

[Edited 2014-03-11 20:03:13]
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asetiadi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:56 am

Let's say if the pilot wanted to go to the airport ASAP, why turn around? why not just go straight to Vietnam which is far more closer?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:57 am

Quoting cschleic (Reply 391):
If a plane is outside radar range, would it receive the signal in the first place, to which it would respond?

No it would not. If it is out of range there is no signal that reaches it so it would not respond. However transponders still work for traffic avoidance systems since that depends on plane-to-plane transmission.

I already answered this above by the way.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 391):
While I'm only a private pilot, I've experienced electrical burning while in the air. It's scary. To protect myself and passengers, I want to be able to turn off everything to reduce the chance of fire and increase the chance of having time and options to land the plane. I've read many quotes by pilots who say the thing that concerns them the most, in terms of possible problems, is fire.

     

Here's an irony. Lots of people complain that FBW leaves pilots "out of the loop" and the plane is now "in charge" (not true). This is the same thing. How about letting the experts at the pointy end decide when they want to shut off a circuit?

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 395):

Let's say if the pilot wanted to go to the airport ASAP, why turn around? why not just go straight to Vietnam which is far more closer?

Speculating here but getting back to home base, where the pilot knows the airport inside and out, is a strong instinct in an emergency when the distance is not that great.

[Edited 2014-03-11 19:59:01]

[Edited 2014-03-11 20:02:55]
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Web500sjc
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:03 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 396):
Speculating here but getting back to home base, where the pilot knows the airport inside and out, is a strong instinct in an emergency when the distance is not that great.

        

If it wasn't anything time critical, and I did not know the capabilities of the airplane in a stable system, I would go home.

anyone know the magnetic variation in the area?
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Trin
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:04 am

Quoting vnangia (Reply 392):

My thoughts exactly. Is it *possible* that the jet made it that far? Well, sure - but if it had we'd already know about it and already know its whereabouts. Speculating on the most extreme outcomes doesn't bring them further into the realm or probability.

I'm afraid that it is far, far more likely that it is in some remote portion of the Malacca Strait or Indian Ocean after a terrible, tragic malfunction or social situation onboard.   My thoughts are with the families during this heartwrenchingly uncertain time.
 
asetiadi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:06 am

@starlionblue:

So I'm guessing and safe to say that nobody on earth knows where this plane headed? For all we know then this plane could be anywhere now.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 396):
Speculating here but getting back to home base, where the pilot knows the airport inside and out, is a strong instinct in an emergency when the distance is not that great.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:06 am

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 397):
anyone know the magnetic variation in the area?

An agonic line crosses the Gulf of Thailand so the variation is zero or close to it for the area.

[Edited 2014-03-11 20:08:20]
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KC135Hydraulics
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14

Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:11 am

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 397):
anyone know the magnetic variation in the area?

Whatever it is, I doubt it is such that it would lead the pilots to grossly miss their desired destination entirely. Even 10° off on a 40 minute return trip would not put that dramatically out of sight from the city lights of KUL.
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