Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 46): It might just mean, "we are still analyzing and don't want to confuse things further".

That is what I think. They have an image on radar from that night, however they do not really know if it has anything to do with MH370 as the transponder was turned off. So they see something, but as they cannot confirm its identity they do not want to over-emphasize the information.

Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 48): Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 44): Single cause widebody accidents where the pilots can do nothing are exceedingly rare. TWA800 and Turkish 981 are the only ones I can think of off-hand. Also perhaps American 191?

Yes, thx! Forgot about that one. The famous pic gives me the willies every time I see it.

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 12): How is it if I lose my $500 iPhone I can find it right away anywhere in the world but a $250 million dollar aircraft goes under the radar.

Fact is, you can't find your iPhone anywhere in the world. It has to be within range of a cell tower (or wifi connection). This is much the same reason why the 777 can't be found. It went off radar.

How is it that people assume that the entire world has radar or communication towers nearby? Water has a nasty habit of being hard to build things on.

Just saw this on CNN. Quite an interesting take:

http://us.cnn.com/2014/03/12/world/a...der-explainer/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

After reading thousands of posts (mostly with little to no new information), I tend to be leaning towards a "human" caused reason for the disappearance. Transponder turning off, plane making a controlled turn, maintaining level flight, complete lack of communication, (even the secretive behavior of the government). . .all lead me to think that someone was in control of that cockpit and had a fully functioning airplane.

IF this is the case, then the most likely scenario for this to occur would be for a pilot/co-pilot "hijacking". Anyone trying to enter enter the cockpit externally would have had to go through at least some resistance, which would most likely have lead to a Mayday call or some sort of signal, yet we see zero evidence of that. Whatever happened, seems to have happened without warning.

The scenario that I am imagining is one where the co-pilot (or pilot), incapacitates the other either by physical force inside the cockpit, or by locking them out completely (while using the bathroom, etc.). Then turns off the transponder, makes a turn and heads back to Malaysia, possibly to use the plane as a weapon, either in a huge show of a "terrorist attack" by crashing into a building (Petronas Towers?), or maybe even something as petty as crashing it into the house of an ex (airplanes have been used like this before, although usually small single engine ones).

So where is the plane now? Well in the above scenario, I imagine that either the locked out pilot, flight attendant, or passenger is able to mount an attack on the cockpit, at which point the person in the cockpit realizes that they will not make their intended target and decides to crash into the ocean.

It is scary & depressing to think that the above might have happened, and I hope that I am completely wrong, but at the moment this just seems more likely to me than mystery malfunctions that conveniently shut off transponders and radios, leaving the plane flyable, able to turn and maintain altitude, yet unable to land. Could there have been such a malfunction, yes, but as ridiculous as it sounds, I think the above theory is actually the more likely one.

(The above assumes that the information we currently have about the plane turning and continuing to fly back towards Malaysia is accurate)

Is this article from CNN accurate?

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 53): Just saw this on CNN. Quite an interesting take: http://us.cnn.com/2014/03/12/world/a...der-explainer/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Because if so, I refer to my original question which I asked about why ACARS doesn't transmit a GPS location. Starlionblue replied (and I thank you for your input, but want to follow up)

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 36): There is already a system to determine location: the transponder.

From what i understand from that CNN article the transponder does not send out the aircrafts location per say, rather it only identifies itself when it is on ATC radar systems. So the difference between the transponder and ACARS actively sending GPS coordinates would be that you would still have a location fix on the plane when it is out of range of ATC.

Am I misinterpreting the article? (Or is CNN wrong?). If my understanding is correct, wouldn't it still be useful to have ACARS broadcasting GPS locations with its other information?

Quoting flyorski (Reply 50): They have an image on radar from that night, however they do not really know if it has anything to do with MH370 as the transponder was turned off.

Having lived in Malaysia for 3 years, I can not deny the incompetence of the Malaysian government. However, the amount of resources available to them must be astounding. I can't believe that Singaporean, Chinese, and USA military can't splice Vietnamese, Singaporean, and Malaysian ATC records together. There would need to be a significant lapse in coverage to create that much doubt. I'm leaning towards there is something significant that they don't want to talk about or their system failed to track the plane.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 51): Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 48): Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 44): Single cause widebody accidents where the pilots can do nothing are exceedingly rare. TWA800 and Turkish 981 are the only ones I can think of off-hand. Also perhaps American 191?

and when they do occur, they will find the debris easily. But not in this MH case. something more puzzling/weird/deliberate action occured.

Too many post to read through, many mysteries indeed, the biggest not being able to find the wreckage. The most significant factor adding to the mystery is that the wrong geographical area has been searched. The B-772 is a great aircraft, being one of most advanced and safest, however something went wrong, it went down, and unfortunately searchers have been covering entirely the wrong geographical area. It is afternoon in the area now, lets hope the straits are being searched aggressively with whatever assets are available in case there are survivors clinging to flotation devices.

Quoting Enobar (Reply 55):

The transponder reports the altitude along with ID info. Radar gives bearing and range, transponder reports altitude and ID.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder_%28aviation%29

[Edited 2014-03-11 22:45:03]

Quoting chrisrad (Reply 2): THE search for missing Flight MH370 has been thrown into yet more confusion after a key Malaysian military chief denied earlier reports that radar had spotted the plane hundreds of kilometres off course. Air force chief General Rodzali Daud was quoted in a local pro-government newspaper as saying a military base had detected the Malaysia Airlines aircraft near an island in the Malacca Strait, far to the southwest of where it should have been headed.

This is becoming a mess. An official says A, media says "A said B".
What's worse is that, media goes to C, and ask about A, and C would say, "Yea yea... A said B"...
You can see how far and fast that can go off track.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 3): It wouldn't be the first time a terrorist group has used a plane as a weapon and it doesn't take a lot of imagination as to what types of materials terrorists groups can get their hands onto to fill up a 250 ton metal tube.

Question: Where is it now then? We're talking about a 777-200ER not a B-2 stealth bomber!

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 6): Sorry just came to my mind, what happens to a fly by wire airplane , like the B777, B787, A320-A380 if there is a total electrical failure? how controllable would it be?

Total electrical generation failure = RAT (Ram Air Turbine) would deploy and power the necessary electrics.
The aircraft is still controllable as the FBW is then powered by the RAT through the necessary electrical buses.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 20): In the case of 777, 320, 330-340 you end up in what is called manual reversion.

Manual reversion is only there in terms of total systems failure ie: the HYD AND ELEC systems are unpowered. The 737 has manual reversion... 777, 320, 330, 340, 767, 747 do not.

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 12): How is it if I lose my $500 iPhone I can find it right away anywhere in the world but a $250 million dollar aircraft goes under the radar. There has to be stuff not being told to the public.

If you lose your $250 million dollar aircraft its easy to find it as long as you know it's at an airport anywhere in the world.
This case isn't the same as "if I lose my iPhone I can fnd it anywhere in the world"... try and lose it in an area with no cell coverage... or simpler enough, get on a speedboat, blindfold yourself, and throw the phone overboard... let's see how easy it is to find it... Not so, right?
Even better... get on a speedboat, blindfold yourself, switch the phone off... then wait a few moments, then throw the phone overboard... U still wanna say you can find it anywhere in the world?   

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 21): "Allah Akbar"

Muslim pilots will say Allahu Akbar when they are scared, in distress... etc...
It was said in the KI574 fatal dive by both pilots... in fact, they screamed it in a fearful tone on the last moments... Not suicidal or terror is it?

Quoting airplanedaj (Reply 26): Does anyone know for sure whether or not it applied to 9M-MRO? I only ask because there are two placements for SATCOM antennas, as discussed in earlier threads

9M-MRO does not have the High Gain Antenna.
It may have the Low Gain Antenna... but I can't confirm it due to its size, but there is a 3rd 'blade' (the front most) between the wing's trailing edge and the tailfin along the top of the fuselage.

Quoting dirktraveller (Reply 36): Thanks for the information, I wasn't aware of Kota Bharu being the closest airfield, that should be capable of handling their B777 right?

In am emergency, yes.
Kota Bharu is 2400m x 45m with strong pavements... albeit narrow, but can be used for emergency.
The other thing, they could have simply made a 180 turn and go to the better choice, Kuala Trengganu, which is designated as an alternate/emergency field for widebody ops in MH. 3480m x 45m.

And bear in mind between those two, there's also Gong Kedak Airbase too. (and yes, the proximity of this airbase along with primary radar facilities nearby, make me dismiss the "they went to strait of Malacca" theory).

Quoting YokoTsuno (Reply 25): You could propose an A.net entrance exam in Wireless Communication in the Site forum

I'll think about it if you call me Mandala instead of Mandela...   

Quoting Enobar (Reply 34): What information is relayed? The AF447 flight obviously had the more advanced subscription and relayed a whole heap of information before crashing - does it supply GPS coordinates? If so I wonder why it took so long to locate the wreckage. If not - it would perhaps not have made as big a difference to the SAR effort of MH370 as some seem to think.. And... It begs the question as to why ACARS would not relay GPS coordinates.. Surely if is already sending so much data back to HQ, would a set of coordinates really be much more data to send?

ACARS messages are not very long, and depending on the package you subscribe to to ARINC or SITA, this can be expensive. This is why carriers are beginning to look into (and some have moved altogether) outside ACARS...
Again, it's a matter of cost.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 58): The most significant factor adding to the mystery is that the wrong geographical area has been searched. The B-772 is a great aircraft, being one of most advanced and safest, however something went wrong, it went down, and unfortunately searchers have been covering entirely the wrong geographical area.

At this point, probably not even the military can say for sure, what the "right" geographical search area is. Please note that they started to search the Malacca Strait very early in the process.

I have a CCTV in my house than can be accessed wherever and whenever I want to through my Samsung Galaxy Note 2 device. All I need is just a working WIFI.

Why can't we do the same thing for the plane? Put a live feed cam inside the cockpit, recorded. Then if something happened, we can compare pilot action vs black box results.

A locator device that hidden inside / near black box device that can tell exactly where the plane located, regardless the situation. This way we can locate the plane asap.

I am not an expert technician but I am sure those two items are not super advanced device that requires million of money and brightest scientist to figure it out.

I have found this in Tomnod...

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/4894

It looks the shape of a plane submerged in water.

Quoting Enobar (Reply 34): What information is relayed? The AF447 flight obviously had the more advanced subscription and relayed a whole heap of information before crashing - does it supply GPS coordinates? If so I wonder why it took so long to locate the wreckage. If not - it would perhaps not have made as big a difference to the SAR effort of MH370 as some seem to think..

Malaysia had ACARS installed on all its aircraft.

Quote: All Malaysia Airlines aircraft are equipped with continuous data monitoring system called the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) which transmits data automatically. Nevertheless, there were no distress calls and no information was relayed.

Source: http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html (11th Media Statement, cannot be linked directly)

It is undestood that Rolls Royce received two ACARS messages related to MH 370:

Quote: But New Scientist understands that the maker of the missing Boeing 777's Trent 800 engines, Rolls Royce, received two data reports from flight MH370 at its global engine health monitoring centre in Derby, UK, where it keeps real-time tabs on its engines in use. One was broadcast as MH370 took off from Kuala Lumpur International Airport, the other during the 777's climb out towards Beijing.

Source: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-engine-data-before-vanishing.html


Here are selected quotes from the AF447 final report describing ACARS:

Quote: ACARS position report for long-haul aircraft. The basic principle is that real-time position information is received from the monitored aircraft and displayed using the Sailor system. All the position reports are displayed simultaneously on a screen at the OCC and are indicated to a dispatcher as a yellow aircraft. When the aircraft sends its position, it is displayed in green. If the aircraft’s flight path coincides with the path described in its flight plan then the two aircraft are overlaid. The actual positions are taken from the ACARS position reports for long-haul aircraft every ten minutes. So that dispatch can monitor the “true” flight, the position report function must be installed on the aircraft system with the correct registration, and the crew must not have disabled this function. If the flight is monitored, the dispatcher will see an orange visual warning in the flight logging interface informing him/her that: -ˆˆ Three successive position reports have not been received; -ˆˆ The aircraft has deviated laterally from its scheduled route by more than 30 nautical miles.

Source: http://media.webcastor.fr/vod/bea/pdf2/f-cp090601.en.pdf


Apparently, MH did not have the same level of ACARS monitoring as AF. However, I assume that ACARS should have sent messages of system malfunctions. As there are no such messages, ACARS either itself or its communciations failed or it was turned off.

Quoting DeltaAtl (Reply 39): Pressed repeatedly on what information the military had given authorities, he finally replied that "now is not the time" to reveal it.

I would just hasten to point out that the nefarious part of this quote ("to reveal it") is not quoted from the official but was added by the reporter, and I think puts a significant spin on the actual quote, "now is not the time."

That said, my sense is that the confusion about the Malaysian military's knowledge is being driven by an embarassment that they can't actually give a definitive answer. Once searches began of the Malacca Strait, the military was put in a difficult position because, quite frankly, it is absurd that they can't say whether or not the plane flew over Malaysian territory. The country's military look very bad if an identified aircraft had been allowed to cross the entire peninsula with no knowledge or military response.

Now to throw out another theory:
Is it possible there could have been some issue which causes the transponder and comms to go out, but which is not so serious that the crew feels they need to make an immediate landing, so they change course to head back towards Malaysia but not directly to the nearest airport so they can dump fuel for landing. Then in the process of doing that the situation deteriorates to a point where they lose control and never make it back to land.

Quoting phantomx18 (Reply 54):

I tend to agree, it's difficult to imagine a failure of any kind that would disable the transponder & communications, yet leaving the plane intact enough to be flyable.

Also within last 5 months we have had the LAM Flight 470 & the Egypt Air hijack... And then now for the first time since 2009 a large widebody jetliner disappears midflight. Coincidence? Who knows.

Someone in that airplane could have gotten inspired by these two previous events. Hopefully that isn't the case and there's something else behind this...

Asetiadi,
Question: Who's going to pay for it?
1. The equipment isn't expensive if you already have satcom on the aircraft. If not, then you need to consider the Satcom equipment costs... total equipment cost runs from $100,000 t0 $500,000... (No, the cheapest satcom can't send pictures).
2. The bandwidth costs money. Again, who's going to pay for it? If using Inmarsat SwiftBroadband, We're talking $4-5 per megabyte (for the $500,000 system... otherwise $9 per mb for the $100,000)... streaming costs $5 - 24 per minute depends on the bandwidth you choose.
If you prefer the Ku-band antenna solution, the system is at least $500,000 all in, and the bandwidth is about $3000 - $10,000 depending on who you deal with.

Before anyone says, "great, we can now stream the FDR too!"... well, how U going to stream it when it goes through a barrel roll?   

Quoting kmot (Reply 64):

It also looks like a ship, a submarine, and a big ship with a small ship next to it, and several other things...

Quoting kmot (Reply 64): I have found this in Tomnod... http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/4894 It looks the shape of a plane submerged in water.

Where? I can't see it....

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 63): From what I remember a pilot group was against it because they were worried the airlines would start watching them. The technology is available. My flight school is installing them in all of our aircraft. The problem though has been people shove the cameras up because they don't want to be spied on the whole flight. I don't care, as I operate by the book. But I could see why people would be wary of it. Pat

Well, a job is a job and if you don't do anything illegal, why you have to be afraid of? I don't mind someone recording me during my work. Like what I am gonna do anyway? Watching porn in my computer.... no way =P

the whole idea is to use this for emergency purpose and in this case, this might help a lot solving the MH case.

I'm not sure what to say after so many days of zero information.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 38): On behalf of the moderators we apologize. It has been difficult to keep up. The amount of posts we've been getting on the subject is unprecedented.

I thank the mods. The attention is high everywhere. At work it was the lunch conversation among those who couldn't care less about aircarft (at an aerospace vendor... Ok, I don't get their normal lack of interest...). I have been contacted by dozens of friends to find out more... Normally a.net has the links... but there are no links to be had.  

Good or bad, for the families sake I would want some information instead of more conspiracy theories...

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 11): The Malaysian government has no idea where MH370 is, or where it went. My guess is they are throwing darts at a map on the wall.

I concur.

Lightsaber

Quoting chrisrad (Reply 45): The government know something that they are holding back, but why waste the resources on a SAR mission then if something is known, but not "YET" being shared?

Just answering your question, not saying I believe this is what's happening: Because if they didn't do a SAR, everybody would be wondering why they weren't. And if they're holding something back, they wouldn't want the public questioning that too hard. It actually would make perfect sense if this theory of a hijack and ransom is to be believed. They'd have to go through the motions of a SAR to keep the negotiations secret. However, it would be increasingly difficult to keep that secret, and at this point with so many governments involved, it would seem practically impossible.

Obviously the government is holding something back because they've publicly said they are, but I think it's probably something else.

Personally, I am still sifting through the TomNod satellite images of the water. Although I'm pretty sure I'm looking in the wrong place. (Which is to say TomNod is serving up maps of the wrong water.)

[Edited 2014-03-11 23:17:16]

Quoting kmot (Reply 64):

Why don't you make a screendrop and post the image? It's hard to get on that Tomnod.

Btw A while ago Boeing has warned 777 owners which operate often overseas routes to check a weak underneath fuselage skin spot as it can cause cracks due to corrosion which might lead to structure weakness and possible total hull loss.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ngs-over-Boeing-777-weak-spot.html

[Edited 2014-03-11 23:19:16]

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 70): Where? I can't see it....

I think this is it.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/ireport/sm/p...percentMikeSeberger-3189824_p9.jpg

I read this on another message board but did not see it discussed here:

- What if there was a pressurization issue slowly reducing the amount of oxygen.
- Cockpit crew is stressed/not thinking clearly b/c of the lack of oxygen
- Want to land in VVCT in Vietnam as it is close and on their flightpath
- They enter "TRN" into the FMS and instead of selecting TRN in Vietnam, select TRN in Thailand (it shows up first because it is closer)
- They go to squak that they have an emergency and turn their transponder to 'standby' as they select the four digit squak code but forget to turn the transponder back on. As I understand it, some A/L require standby when selecting squak codes to avoid a distress code in error (I don't know if this is the procedure for this airline here).
- Plane flies by AP until it runs out of fuel over the Andaman Sea or farther west.

This would cover all the bases.

You will see that TRN in Thailand is a 90 degree turn to the west, towards the Andaman Sea and agrees with what the Malaysian military had said, albeit a bit farther north.

I'm not sure why Thai radar would not have picked up on it though....

Again, thanks to the poster on that other board for the idea and graphic below:

Two TRNs

Here are ships...

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/3759

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/641

This is not a ship.

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/4894

Maybe a reflection....

Quoting haynflyer (Reply 75):

What happened to the alarm for a pressurization problem?

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 74): I think this is it. http://i.cdn.turner.com/ireport/sm/p...percentMikeSeberger-3189824_p9.jpg

That's a boat with a smaller boat next to it. There are many such boats in these maps. I found one too: http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k1...ture312201415654AM_zpsffa84dcb.jpg

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 68): Asetiadi, Question: Who's going to pay for it?

Hmm... never knew it's gonna be that expensive. Mine is free lol. Well other than paying my monthly internet subscription.

Well at least Boeing or Airbus need to develop something that can track the plane when they are crashed ASAP. We don't want to repeat something like this ever. We are living in 21st century, let's put the technology into a better use.

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 62): I have a CCTV in my house than can be accessed wherever and whenever I want to through my Samsung Galaxy Note 2 device. All I need is just a working WIFI. Why can't we do the same thing for the plane? Put a live feed cam inside the cockpit, recorded. Then if something happened, we can compare pilot action vs black box results.

You answered your question in the opening statement. "All I need is..."

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 78): That's a boat with a smaller boat next to it.

I said that in my post...#69

[Edited 2014-03-11 23:23:29]

Darn old 772, every system on it seems to have failed at once.

I have updated the map and put the red circle to the left of what I am describing.

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/4894

Possible Aircraft

Quoting Owleye (Reply 73): A while ago Boeing has warned 777 owners which operate often overseas routes to check a weak underneath fuselage skin spot as it can cause cracks due to corrosion which might lead to structure weakness and possible total hull loss

Let's repeat this again... This AD/warning does not apply to this particular aircraft.

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 79): Well at least Boeing or Airbus need to develop something that can track the plane when they are crashed ASAP. We don't want to repeat something like this ever. We are living in 21st century, let's put the technology into a better use.

I hope people don't complain if ticket prices increase to accommodate for this stuff...   
There are already technologies out there to assist in location report in event of emergencies etc... the question is whether the airlines want it or not (which is the main hurdle I am faced with... this is the stuff I sell)...
Also bear in mind, accidents like these are extremely rare... it still happens, but it's statistically getting more rare. This is also a factor to consider...

Quoting kmot (Reply 84): I have updated the map and put the red circle to the left of what I am describing.

what do you see? because I can't figure it out.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 77):

I am assuming that if they heard an alarm, they would have descended. It would appear either that it didn't go off or that the depressurization was so sudden that they did not have time to descend before being totally incapacitated.

I'm just an armchair pilot so I wouldn't know what one does first in a case like this.

A good summary of Malaysia's bizarre response so far

IS Malaysia laying a deliberate smokescreen?

As the world waits for answers about missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370, the families of its 239 lost passengers and crew are getting fed up with official furphies.

And they're not the only ones.

Vietnam has just announced it is suspending its air search for missing flight MH370 and scaling back its sea search as it waits for Malaysia to clarify the potential new direction of the multi-national hunt - not the first clash between the two countries on the issue.

Malaysian authorities have made a number of conflicting statements since Saturday, while failing to address rumours about the plane.



http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...mh370/story-fnizu68q-1226852704012

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 85): (which is the main hurdle I am faced with... this is the stuff I sell)...

Wow really? what is your company name? I have an idea of putting a live recording cam inside my car for my driver/kids.

The arrows point to what appears to be the shape of an aircraft fuselage with wings and a portion of its tail. However I admit it is late and I could be seeing things.

Anotated

[Edited 2014-03-11 23:46:26]

Re tomnod, I don't see anything at all at map 4894.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 90): Although I see what you're saying I'm skeptical because there is absolutely no debris. I get that the 777 is a strong aircraft. But I have a really hard time believing it went down into the water without anything getting ripped off. Pat

I cannot remember, was there a debris trail with the 320 that landed in the Hudson? If it was a controlled landing and then it sank... it possible could happen.

Quoting kmot (Reply 89):

I would have skimmed over that.. but I *can* make out the shape of a plane. Might be seeing what we "want" to see out of desperation (even though we don't really "want" to be seeing a crashed plane of course.

Could the debris field have washed away by now? Perhaps the surrounding areas might reveal some?

Quoting chrisrad (Reply 87): Malaysian authorities have made a number of conflicting statements since Saturday, while failing to address rumours about the plane.

It seems pretty obvious that Malaysian authorities are rank amateurs. If I were the Malaysian authorities I would go looking for some professional help ASAP.
In the mean time I would keep my mouth shut.

1. Professional SAR unified command
2. Professional radar and remote sensing analysts
3. Professional public affairs officer

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 90): Although I see what you're saying I'm skeptical because there is absolutely no debris. I get that the 777 is a strong aircraft. But I have a really hard time believing it went down into the water without anything getting ripped off.

This is at least several hours after it would have gone into the water, so debris may have washed away.

As for whether it IS a plane...it certainly looks like it, but the compression artifacts are so bad, it's hard to tell. Is there any way to tell on Tomnod WHERE the actual grid is located? This would have to be VERY shallow water, I'd imagine, to see anything on the seafloor that clearly.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 97): Is there any way to tell on Tomnod WHERE the actual grid is located? This would have to be VERY shallow water, I'd imagine, to see anything on the seafloor that clearly.

Here in lies the problem. I can't tell where I have spotted it. And if they have in fact found a raft, then this is mute...

Quoting kmot (Reply 98): Here in lies the problem. I can't tell where I have spotted it. And if they have in fact found a raft, then this is mute...

Honestly, before reading the raft thing I was ready to say, "No way, it's just a compression glitch in the imagery..."

But if there are rafts out there, there's at least a semi-intact plane out there. Someone has to be the one to find it first. It may well have been you.