Due to length part 14 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 15.

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines 772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

*** Out of respect to the crew, passengers and also family members; close to those onboard MH370; could we please keep science fiction theories and content related to possible future movie rights out of these threads? ***

A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

It is not unique to this incident and if we go back in history and trace remarkable aviation events we will see that speculation has been an aspect, essential to some healthy debate. It is not the intention of the moderators to stifle the opinions of members that fall within the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. All that we kindly request from all our members is to stay within the site’s parameters. Please be respectful towards one another and let us all hope for the best possible outcome. If you feel a post is disrespectful towards a user or group we ask that you please use the Suggest Deletion button that is above every post. This brings those to our attention immediately. With the amount of posts these threads are getting we can't keep up with everything. This allows us to fix the issue sooner, and ultimately not have to remove a large amount of posts for housekeeping reasons.


Regards and thanks so much for your co-operation,

Pat

I'm going to quote mandala499 because the post deserves to be at the top as it summarizes a lot of things wel.

This is getting ridiculous.
Sorry, a lot of posts here are covering things that do NOT make sense.

Quoting dirktraveller (Reply 404):
He would probably tried to divert to PEN

Kota Baru would be the nearest to his position.

No, I don't buy the aircraft making it to the straits of Malacca.
Those who believe the cellphone theories need to know how the stuff works.
Those who claim that it can be through the satcom on the aircraft, unfortunately 9M-MRO is NOT fitted with the GSM-onboard system. Even if so, if it uses the Inmarsat Swift Broadband, you can actually narrow down its location by now if it's active, as it has fixed aiming spot beam from the satellite.

Those who say Indonesia shot the plane down, please get your heads checked. Our Air Force highly value the missiles. A gun run would require a higher performance jet... The jets we have in west Borneo and in Sumatra are mere Hawk 100/200s. And yes, interception permission to fire process involve approval to the duty commander of the Defence Command (The areas we are talking comes under the west air defence command), and if not being fired at, to shoot your interceptee, we need permission from the Chief of Staff, Minister of Defence, OR President. A LOT in the chain to get the permission, if it happened, it would have leaked by now!

People need to remember, AF447 simply disappeared... only the ACARS (sat-cars) gave clues. Now imagine if we had no Satcars on AF447? Coz MH's ACARS service subscription, is much lighter/less than AF's... eg: no automated flight following position update, longest interval engine monitoring... etc...


BTW mandala499 it is not getting ridiculous. It was already ridiculous a long time ago and many posts ago. 

The conspiracy theories are an inevitable consequence of uncertainty.

[Edited 2014-03-11 20:36:20]

This is getting even more ridiculous now

THE search for missing Flight MH370 has been thrown into yet more confusion after a key Malaysian military chief denied earlier reports that radar had spotted the plane hundreds of kilometres off course.

Air force chief General Rodzali Daud was quoted in a local pro-government newspaper as saying a military base had detected the Malaysia Airlines aircraft near an island in the Malacca Strait, far to the southwest of where it should have been headed.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...ikely/story-fnizu68q-1226851991393

I've been following these threads with quite a bit of interest and given the recent developments I'm wondering if anyone one else has entertained the thought that the longer this plane goes without being found, the more interests in the areas along the Indian Ocean/Asian Pacific Coasts should start moving to a higher level of alert.

It wouldn't be the first time a terrorist group has used a plane as a weapon and it doesn't take a lot of imagination as to what types of materials terrorists groups can get their hands onto to fill up a 250 ton metal tube.

Quoting chrisrad (Reply 2): This is getting even more ridiculous now THE search for missing Flight MH370 has been thrown into yet more confusion after a key Malaysian military chief denied earlier reports that radar had spotted the plane hundreds of kilometres off course. Air force chief General Rodzali Daud was quoted in a local pro-government newspaper as saying a military base had detected the Malaysia Airlines aircraft near an island in the Malacca Strait, far to the southwest of where it should have been headed. http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...ikely/story-fnizu68q-1226851991393

I've also seen some reports saying that his statement is being contradicted by other government sources.

OK, Another theory, but hear me out. I read this account of a "potential" eyewitness yesterday

http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-co...ible-sighting-of-airliner-1.505683

and I immediately discarded it because it didn't fit all of the data points that I had been hearing. But after all of the different ebbs and flows of possibilities that we heard today I decided to see if I could make this account fit. Heck, it's got to sound more realistic than the theory presented a few pages ago of a government hijacking the plane (full of its own citizens, mind you) so they could reverse engineer the plane's 20+ year old design... even though that government owns dozens of these planes already..unbelievable..... Anyway, here it is:

1) The crew is somehow not in total control, and can't communicate.

2) An eyewitness in Keterah claims to have seen "a bright white light, believed to be of an aircraft, descending at high speed towards the South China Sea about 1.45am on the day flight MH370 went missing"

3) Eyewitness claims ""It was moving towards the sea, towards Bachok area, which was unusual. "Usually, aircrafts that fly over here have their usual route pattern, but this one went completely towards the other way," he said. Alif said he watched the light's movement for about five minutes, before realising that it was descending."

It is possible that the earlier account of a western flight path towards the Andaman Sea was real, but the details are not complete, or were inaccurate, like, perhaps the actual time that the plane was over Pulau Perak Island thus the Govt. retracted the whole thing. If you can believe this, then perhaps the plane turned back east and descended rapidly back over Keterah towards the South China Sea and ditched not far off the coast. Images of that Ethiopian 767 hitting the surf 10-15 years ago come up for me.

I made a map of the scenario:


If the plane went in within a few miles of shore, in a relatively confined area (like that hijacked Ethiopian 767) then perhaps it would have gone unnoticed. I have searched for a KML or good drawing of the search area boundaries, but I have not found one yet. Anyway, the search grids look to me like they have concentrated off shore...

So there it is...thoughts?

SoCalGeo

Sorry just came to my mind, what happens to a fly by wire airplane , like the B777, B787, A320-A380 if there is a total electrical failure? how controllable would it be?

I realize it is really absurd to think about a total electrical failure, but I wouldn't mind knowing for future reference.

Quoting chrisrad (Reply 2):

He may not have said it, but somebody did. Why are they searching in that area, just for the heck of it?

To what extent is a 777 able to fly entirely on its own? If someone set the autopilot (or some system) to hold an altitude and heading, would the plane then fly until its fuel ran out in the direction requested and at the height requested?

Can anyone please respond to my question (Reply 404) in Thread 14? It is almost at the bottom of that thread. Thank you!

More and more this is screaming there is more to this story that the government of Malaysia know, and are not prepared to share.. yet

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4): Quoting chrisrad (Reply 2): This is getting even more ridiculous now THE search for missing Flight MH370 has been thrown into yet more confusion after a key Malaysian military chief denied earlier reports that radar had spotted the plane hundreds of kilometres off course. Air force chief General Rodzali Daud was quoted in a local pro-government newspaper as saying a military base had detected the Malaysia Airlines aircraft near an island in the Malacca Strait, far to the southwest of where it should have been headed. http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...ikely/story-fnizu68q-1226851991393 I've also seen some reports saying that his statement is being contradicted by other government sources.

Quoting aerobalance (Reply 7): Quoting chrisrad (Reply 2): He may not have said it, but somebody did. Why are they searching in that area, just for the heck of it?

The Malaysian government has no idea where MH370 is, or where it went. My guess is they are throwing darts at a map on the wall.

[Edited 2014-03-11 20:46:19]

My faith in the Malaysian government to properly conduct a search and rescue mission is severely shaken, and it really is a shame. I feel like they are going through the motions, hoping to stumble upon wreckage.

[Edited 2014-03-11 20:51:08]

I really hope they do find this plane soon. the longer this goes on the worse and probably more ugly its going to get to say the least. How is it if I lose my $500 iPhone I can find it right away anywhere in the world but a $250 million dollar aircraft goes under the radar. There has to be stuff not being told to the public. I have a feeling that new rules will be put into place because of this. Also how much longer do the search the new area before moving on. Maybe going more west? How many boats travel the area where they are looking or further west? By now a commercial boat of some kind would of found something. This is taking way to long to find this plane and is becoming a little ridiculous. 90% of the post on here with theories could be true the other 10% about aliens sound highly unlikely. I really do feel bad for the families I could never imagine being on either end and going through this.

On a side note the US media is going to keep going on about this until its found. One of my favorite quotes so far from CNN asked by the news anchor was can the plane even fly with the transponder turned off.... come on lets ask real question now.

Note to moderators: Please don't let the thread run to 409 posts like the last one. Thank you  

Looks like Vietnam is scaling back their effort. Would China be expected to do the bulk of the recovery once the aircraft is found seeing as their navy is the most capable of doing the job ?

http://news.yahoo.com/malaysia-milit...veered-west-004734056--sector.html

I think it's pretty clear that the MAF has no info on where the plane went after IGARI. They know only that it changed heading at IGARI and then disappeared.

The other search area was based on that heading, and not on any radar track.

FAA and Oxygen (From FAA Publications)

Oxygen Requirements at Altitude.

The FAA requires that all pilots flying their aircraft above 12,500 feet for 30 minutes or longer or at 14,000 feet or above during the entire flight must use supplemental oxygen. The amount required is 1 liter of oxygen per minute for every 10,000 feet. For example, at 18,000 feet there should be a flow of 1.8 liters per minute of oxygen available via a standard breathing device. The FAA requires there should be a device so attached to each breathing device that visually shows the flow of oxygen. (Nelson flow meters meet this FAA requirement.) The FAA also regulates that passengers must have supplemental oxygen available over 15,000 feet and that it is recommended that supplemental oxygen be used at night at altitudes over 5,000 feet.

Effective Performance Time.

This is the amount of time during which a pilot is able to effectively or adequately fly his aircraft with an insufficient supply of oxygen. At altitudes below 30,000 feet this time may differ considerably from the time of total consciousness (the time it takes to pass out). Above 35,000 feet the times become shorter and eventually coincides, for all practical purposes, with the time it takes for blood to circulate from the lungs to the head.

Average Effective Performance Time for flying
personnel without supplemental oxygen:

15,000 to 18,000 feet ..........30 minutes or more

22,000 feet ...............................5 to 10 minutes

25,000 feet .................................3 to 5 minutes

28,000 feet............................2 1/2 to 3 minutes

30,000 feet .................................1 to 2 minutes

35,000 feet ............................30 to 60 seconds

40,000 feet ............................15 to 20 seconds

45,000 feet ..............................9 to 15 seconds

Factors which will determine the Effective Performance Time

Altitude. EPT decreases at high altitudes.
Rate of ascent. In general, the faster the rate, the shorter the EPT.
Physical Activity. Exercise decreases EPT considerably.
Day-to-Day Factors. Physical fitness and other factors (smoking, health, stress) may change your ability to tolerate hypoxia from day to day, thereby changing your EPT.
Cannulas.

The cannula type breathing devices can be used up to 18,000 feet. If a cannula is used, there must be a standby face mask available for each cannula used in case a head cold causes the user some nasal congestion. Pilots should refer to FAR 23.1447 to see if any restrictions apply for their use of cannula type breathing devices in operating their aircraft.

Cylinders.

Oxygen cylinders should be hydrostatically tested every 5 years. Steel Cylinders are usually tested every 10 years. Specially constructed oxygen cylinders could have a shorter period for hydrostatically testing. There could also be a limit on how long the cylinder may be used when it was supplied as original equipment with a factory installed, built in oxygen system. Most cylinders can be used indefinitely. However, some aircraft may be required to replace the cylinders after 25 years. Factory supplied built in oxygen systems will have the necessary maintenance information in the aircraft manual.

Around the neck of the cylinder are letters and numbers stamped into the cylinder. Of importance to the pilot are three items. AT the beginning of the numbers are the letters, DOT. This indicates that the cylinder has been approved by the Department of Transportation, which means they can be commercially filled. European cylinders may not have the DOT stamped on the cylinder. This could prevent the cylinder from being refilled in the USA. Owners of imported aircraft from Europe should be aware of this problem.

After the DOT label, there will be 4 numbers. These indicate the rate cylinder pressure. 2015 and 2216 are common.

After the end of all the numbers will be two numbers followed by a letter that looks like an inverted capital A and then two more numbers. This is the date of manufacture of the cylinder. The first numbers are the month (03 for example would be March) and the last two being the year of manufacture (96 for would be for 1996).

The date testing is required is based on this date, not when the cylinder was purchased. It is quite common to have a unused cylinder that could be one of two years old. Perhaps not fair for the buyer, but who said life was always fair.

Outlets in Built-In Systems.

We understand that some systems require the O-Ring seals in the manifold outlets to be replaced on a scheduled basis. Consult your aircraft manual for more information.

FAA Altitude Test Chamber.

Quoting socalgeo (Reply 5): If the plane went in within a few miles of shore, in a relatively confined area (like that hijacked Ethiopian 767) then perhaps it would have gone unnoticed. I have searched for a KML or good drawing of the search area boundaries, but I have not found one yet. Anyway, the search grids look to me like they have concentrated off shore... So there it is...thoughts?

First, thank you for providing a map...always makes it so much easier to understand what you're explaining.

As to your theory, it's not too farfetched, however I don't think it's likely. I say this because with such a low flight path over a populated area, I'd expect many more eyewitnesses. Also, a crash site so close to land would be more likely to have debris found by ships/fishing boats/coastal citizens, etc. More importantly, wouldn't it have shown up on a primary radar somewhere, given that it would have flown over a large part of the country?

Now the Vietnamese Govt has said they are suspending operations for now as they await clarity from the Malaysian Govt. Viet Nam deputy minister of transport Pham Quy TieuTieu is reported as asking for clarity twice but with no response. Further, to muddy the waters further, he says Vietnam told Malaysia on the very first loss of contact with the plane, that it had turned back West!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11218446

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 6): Sorry just came to my mind, what happens to a fly by wire airplane , like the B777, B787, A320-A380 if there is a total electrical failure? how controllable would it be? I realize it is really absurd to think about a total electrical failure, but I wouldn't mind knowing for future reference.

In the case of 777, 320, 330-340 you end up in what is called manual reversion. Physical links from controls to a few select surfaces. In the case of the 777, you get some of the spoiler panels for roll and yaw control plus stabilizer trim for pitch control. Not good handling but better than no control at all.

Of course the issue is that without electrics you would have no instruments beyond the whiskey compass. At night over the ocean that makes having the flight controls somewhat moot since you have no way of orienting yourself.

If memory serves 380 has no manual reversion because they could pass certification without it. Basically they proved that the system was redundant enough to reduce the possibility of complete electric loss to a defined probability so low it didn't matter. No doubt a 380 is safer than a 727 anyway, and if you lose all electrics you're probably dead already.

I can't think of a single airliner that has suffered complete electrical failure.

Quoting bellancacf (Reply 8): To what extent is a 777 able to fly entirely on its own? If someone set the autopilot (or some system) to hold an altitude and heading, would the plane then fly until its fuel ran out in the direction requested and at the height requested?

Yes.

[Edited 2014-03-11 20:57:04]

[Edited 2014-03-11 20:58:31]

It's hard to sort through everything, but this might be new:

"Chinese state media has reported that vessels searching for the Malaysia Airlines plane have pulled floating debris from water. It is not confirmed that the debris is related to the missing flight."

Info received just past 11PM EST

Quoting bellancacf (Reply 8): To what extent is a 777 able to fly entirely on its own? If someone set the autopilot (or some system) to hold an altitude and heading, would the plane then fly until its fuel ran out in the direction requested and at the height requested?

Helios Airways Flight 522 pretty much flown itself for most of the journey since both the pilots lost consciousness soon after the plane took off, and it crashed until it run out of fuel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522

Of course in that accident it was a 737, but I assume it would be the same for a 777

[Edited 2014-03-11 21:01:29]

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 20): Of course the issue is that without electrics you would have no instruments beyond the whiskey compass. At night over the ocean that makes having the flight controls somewhat moot since you have no way of orienting yourself.

You know what heading you came out on. Wouldn't that be enough to use the compass to at least get you near KUL, which is well lit?

As mentioned in previous threads, there was an AD affecting 777's issued by the FAA regarding potential fuselage cracks near SATCOM antennas. Does anyone know for sure whether or not it applied to 9M-MRO? I only ask because there are two placements for SATCOM antennas, as discussed in earlier threads

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 20): Of course the issue is that without electrics you would have no instruments beyond the whiskey compass. At night over the ocean that makes having the flight controls somewhat moot since you have no way of orienting yourself.

You know what heading you came out on. Wouldn't that be enough to use the compass to at least get you near KUL, which is well lit?

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 20): Quoting bellancacf (Reply 8): To what extent is a 777 able to fly entirely on its own? If someone set the autopilot (or some system) to hold an altitude and heading, would the plane then fly until its fuel ran out in the direction requested and at the height requested? Yes.

Thanks for the answer. BTW, I enjoy reading your posts.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 9): Can anyone please respond to my question (Reply 404) in Thread 14? It is almost at the bottom of that thread. Thank you!

Yes, airplanes are like any other technical product. They can fail after one minute, 50 years of usage, or never, ever.

Quoting mandela (Reply 409): Those who believe the cellphone theories need to know how the stuff works.

You could propose an A.net entrance exam in Wireless Communication in the Site forum  .

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 18): First, thank you for providing a map...always makes it so much easier to understand what you're explaining. As to your theory, it's not too farfetched, however I don't think it's likely. I say this because with such a low flight path over a populated area, I'd expect many more eyewitnesses. Also, a crash site so close to land would be more likely to have debris found by ships/fishing boats/coastal citizens, etc. More importantly, wouldn't it have shown up on a primary radar somewhere, given that it would have flown over a large part of the country?

Thanks! I tend to agree with you, but amazingly, this is the single bit of evidence (admittedly weak) that has not been retracted, that I have been able to find of a possible location...

It was almost 1:30 in the morning, so it is not totally out of the realm of possibility that no others saw it (very unlikely).

It is also not out of question that the primary radar may not have been as effective as the Govt would have us believe, and it is a hilly area.

The lack of debris or the fact that fishermen would have found it is pretty hard to discount, but who knows, stranger things have happened.

SoCalGeo

Quoting dtfg (Reply 23):

That still wouldn't explain the ginormous turn to the west MH370 took.

The plot thickens with every passing hour.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 25): Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 20): Of course the issue is that without electrics you would have no instruments beyond the whiskey compass. At night over the ocean that makes having the flight controls somewhat moot since you have no way of orienting yourself. You know what heading you came out on. Wouldn't that be enough to use the compass to at least get you near KUL, which is well lit?

Heading would be the only thing you could hold. You have no electrics so no gyros, no servos and no displays. Thus, no artificial horizon, no altitude display and no indicated airspeed. If you're flying manually with no outside reference and no instruments, there's no way to stay level. And since you don't have electrics you can't turn use the autopilot.

You'd be in a death spiral in no time.

In instrument training, many instructors make you close your eyes and then tell you what to do (e.g. "turn left 90 degrees, now climb, now stop climbing..."). Then you open your eyes and have to recover with instruments only. This is a demonstration of how truly useless your senses are when it comes to spatial orientation in an an airplane. And that's in a light prop. In an airliner it is even worse.

[Edited 2014-03-11 21:12:24]

[Edited 2014-03-11 21:12:49]

Quoting alberchico (Reply 14): Looks like Vietnam is scaling back their effort. Would China be expected to do the bulk of the recovery once the aircraft is found seeing as their navy is the most capable of doing the job ?

China won't stop until they resolve this. The public pressure is too high plus the government wants to know what happened.

Quoting DeltaAtl (Reply 17):

You know 12,500 and 14,000 is not the rule for part 121 that would be 61. 121 I think is 10,000 and 12,000. It's different numbers the what 61 is.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 34):

Yes, you would need some point of reference. Could you even see the lights on one of the coasts from IGARI at 35K feet?

Anyway, here is the cockpit of 9M-MRO.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/0/6/4/0773460.jpg

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/9/1/3/0561319.jpg

[Edited 2014-03-11 21:17:30]

ITS now being reported on FOX ( kelley files ) - 777- BA has had had a request or notice in for change to FBW computer / reporting systems for security reasons- that there IS a common ( wired) link somehow between some of the FBW reporting systems and the inflight passenger entertainment systems- and possibly subject to hacking !

Dont know if this report is factual

http://1.usa.gov/1g7jNSq

Quoting YokoTsuno (Reply 30): Yes, airplanes are like any other technical product. They can fail after one minute, 50 years of usage, or never, ever.

Hard to imagine a scenario with catastrophic electrical failure without any prior electrical issue in 777, although your point is well taken.

What is last wide body crash solely because of system failure without any prior issue with the specific system? For example, AF 447's problem started with pitot tube icing over which had been recorded before that tragedy.

Can I just ask given how much discussion there has been Round ACARS and whether MH370 did/did not have it, and what level of subscription it had etc;

What information is relayed? The AF447 flight obviously had the more advanced subscription and relayed a whole heap of information before crashing - does it supply GPS coordinates? If so I wonder why it took so long to locate the wreckage. If not - it would perhaps not have made as big a difference to the SAR effort of MH370 as some seem to think..

And... It begs the question as to why ACARS would not relay GPS coordinates.. Surely if is already sending so much data back to HQ, would a set of coordinates really be much more data to send?

My gut tells me: Explosive decompression due to a failed cockpit window, failed electrical equipment and rapid descent from cruise, then th e other pilot lost consciousness and the plane flew till it exhausted the fuel.... its nowhere the area they think it is...

then again I have read too much weird books

TRB

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 39): Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 34): Yes, you would need some point of reference. Could you even see the lights on one of the coasts from IGARI at 35K feet?

I think you probably could assuming clear skies. But this doesn't really help very much. At night everything becomes a bit muddled on the outside references front. Even if you could make out the horizon you still wouldn't know your altitude. You could set power based on thrust lever position but since you wouldn't know your pitch attitude you couldn't make even a rough estimate of speed.

Quoting Enobar (Reply 34): does it supply GPS coordinates? If so I wonder why it took so long to locate the wreckage.

Because if you lose contact at cruise, the plane can be anywhere in a very very large area, plus you have currents.

Quoting Enobar (Reply 34): And... It begs the question as to why ACARS would not relay GPS coordinates.. Surely if is already sending so much data back to HQ, would a set of coordinates really be much more data to send?

There is already a system to determine location: the transponder.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 11): My faith in the Malaysian government to properly conduct a search and rescue mission is severely shaken, and it really is a shame. I feel like they are going through the motions, hoping to stumble upon wreckage.

You need to be clear who has the responsibility here for SAR, where contact was lost it was in the Singapore SRR.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 14): Note to moderators: Please don't let the thread run to 409 posts like the last one. Thank you

On behalf of the moderators we apologize. It has been difficult to keep up. The amount of posts we've been getting on the subject is unprecedented.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 27): You know what heading you came out on. Wouldn't that be enough to use the compass to at least get you near KUL, which is well lit?

It's could be tough to maintain it since you have no point of reference besides your mag compass. Not impossible. But if you are trying to stick to say 330, chances are you won't be on the nose unless you keep an eye on the compass.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 34): In instrument training, many instructors make you close your eyes and then tell you what to do (e.g. "turn left 90 degrees, now climb, now stop climbing..."). Then you open your eyes and have to recover with instruments only. This is a demonstration of how truly useless your senses are when it comes to spatial orientation in an an airplane. And that's in a light prop. In an airliner it is even worse.

It's pretty amazing when they do this. I had an instructor during private training, right before my first solo cross country, who had me put the hood on and put my head down and my eyes closed. He did turns and climbs and asked me what he was doing. I said he was level with a left turn. We were 10 degrees nose up with a 40 degree bank to the right. It was all to show me how dangerous it could be going into instrument conditions without proper training. It's incredible how disoriented you can get.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 39): Yes, you would need some point of reference. Could you even see the lights on one of the coasts from IGARI at 35K feet?

You might be able to if it is clear. But even then you have to make sure you aren't focusing on one fixed point or else autoknesis will kick in and it will create even more confusion.
Pat

Article from http://www.straitstimes.com

"Alright, good night" were the last heard words from the missing Malaysian Airlines (MAS) flight MH370 - which were revealed for the first time at a meeting in Beijing on Wednesday morning between the Malaysian government and Chinese relatives.

The flight then disappeared from radar screens, said Malaysia's civil aviation officials at the meeting fronted by its envoy to China, Datuk Iskandar Sarudin, and held in a packed room with nearly 400 relatives at the Metropark Lido hotel.

Anxious and angry over their loved one's unknown fate and lack of progress in locating the plane, the family members on Tuesday had requested for the meeting with the Malaysian government to seek answers to their questions .

But for close to two hours, the morning meeting, which was live-tweeted throughout by The Straits Times, ended with more questions than answers.

The aviation officials said MH370's last heard words were made in response after Malaysian air traffic controllers told the cockpit that they were entering Vietnamese airspace and that air traffic controllers from Ho Chi Minh city were taking over.

The plane, carrying 239 passengers and crew in all including 153 Chinese nationals, have remained missing since Saturday 1.20am despite a massive international search operation involving Singapore.

While such disappearance from radar screens could be a result of a hijacking and the hijackers turning off signals, in such an event, the pilot should still have sent a secret mayday code, said the Malaysian civil aviation official.

The officials also said that there was no reason to suspect the pilots, who were experienced and had passed all the checks that MAS applies to pilots.

This was in response to families bringing up reports that the co-pilot had let passengers into the cockpit in an incident in 2011.

In a confusing exchange, the male official - who was Malay but spoke Chinese - was asked repeatedly by family members if military-grade radar had picked up the plane. Military air data and technology would go beyond the civilian ones, they said.

The official replied that the Malaysian military was assisting investigations "at a high level."

Pressed repeatedly on what information the military had given authorities, he finally replied that "now is not the time" to reveal it.

Some of the families shouted incredulously at this, but one man who had taken on the role of family representative said that they understood, and that they hoped Malaysia would reveal the information as soon as possible.

The exchange boosted theories among the anxious families that there are ongoing secret negotiations with terrorists who had hijacked the plane. Adding to this was the official's earlier statement that Malaysia hopes that the passengers are alive.

The families also handed the number of a passenger's cellphone that has been ringing until today to the envoy, and beseeched Datuk Iskandar for a straight answer on the ringing phones. Whether the plane is on land or whether the passengers had just linked their cellphones to transfer to other numbers if unanswered, they wanted a clear reply, they said.

The families' representative, while thanking Datuk Iskandar and the Malaysian officials for meeting with them, also said that the families are extremely disappointed and angry with the Malaysian government's "delayed and untransparent" rescue efforts. Some wanted an apology from the envoy.

Datuk Iskandar addressed the families at the end of the session, saying that he promises that he will convey their sentiments and thoughts to the Malaysian government. He said that the Malaysian government is doing everything it can, and that all families who wanted to go to KL would be issued visas by today.

He also asked family members to approach him privately anytime.


Wonder what this means????
"Pressed repeatedly on what information the military had given authorities, he finally replied that "now is not the time" to reveal it."

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 41): What is last wide body crash solely because of system failure without any prior issue with the specific system? For example, AF 447's problem started with pitot tube icing over which had been recorded before that tragedy.

Point taken, but still no guarantee that a flawless operation history totally excludes a sudden catastrophic failure.

It's a bit like my wife who can't understand why our TV broke down after 15 years of operation without a hitch. Simple, when an electronic component fails, it fails. This comparison might not be entirely fair because airplanes have built-in redundancy and are for a large part mechanical in nature, were wear and tear is a factor, a slow proces. But still, not impossible.

China's satellites 'missed best chance' to find missing Malaysia Airlines flight

http://m.scmp.com/news/china/article...ed-best-chance-find-missing-flight

"Pressed repeatedly on what information the military had given authorities, he finally replied that "now is not the time" to reveal it."

Hmm, that doesn't sound good.

Quoting YokoTsuno (Reply 40): It's a bit like my wife who can't understand why our TV broke down after 15 years of operation without a hitch. Simple, when an electronic component fails, it fails. This comparison might not be entirely fair because airplanes have built-in redundancy and are for a large part mechanical in nature, were wear and tear is a factor, a slow proces. But still, not impossible.

Your levity appreciated in these trying circumstances.   Just hope a quick resolution to the search. I mean, for the families and friends of those on that flight this is an unending nightmare compounded by miscommunication, rumors, copilot's transgressions...just unfortunate set of circumstances. God bless them!

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 33): What is last wide body crash solely because of system failure without any prior issue with the specific system? For example, AF 447's problem started with pitot tube icing over which had been recorded before that tragedy.

Single cause widebody accidents where the pilots can do nothing are exceedingly rare. TWA800 and Turkish 981 are the only ones I can think of off-hand.

AF447 didn't crash because of the pitot tube issue. That was just the item that set the pilots off on a highly flawed series of actions. If they had followed the documented procedure and checklist for loss of speed data the plane would have made it safely to Paris. Pitot tube malfunctions had happened before.

[Edited 2014-03-11 21:56:03]

Quoting DeltaAtl (Reply 39): In a confusing exchange, the male official - who was Malay but spoke Chinese - was asked repeatedly by family members if military-grade radar had picked up the plane. Military air data and technology would go beyond the civilian ones, they said. The official replied that the Malaysian military was assisting investigations "at a high level." Pressed repeatedly on what information the military had given authorities, he finally replied that "now is not the time" to reveal it.

I still think there is more to this story than any of us know. The government know something that they are holding back, but why waste the resources on a SAR mission then if something is known, but not "YET" being shared?

Quoting timothy31388 (Reply 42): "Pressed repeatedly on what information the military had given authorities, he finally replied that "now is not the time" to reveal it." Hmm, that doesn't sound good.

It might just mean, "we are still analyzing and don't want to confuse things further".

BTW please use the "Quote Selected Text" button when quoting.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 41): What is last wide body crash solely because of system failure without any prior issue with the specific system?

Failing to see the logic on this one. Almost all crashes are unique, its not just about the single failure its the chain of events. If there was a prior known condition you would hope an AD would address this way before a hull loss. Also, why just wide bodies? All crashes are significant.

But what comes to mind is TWA800 / SR111 / AA587 / TK981 / JA8119 / QF32

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 44): Single cause widebody accidents where the pilots can do nothing are exceedingly rare. TWA800 and Turkish 981 are the only ones I can think of off-hand.

Also perhaps American 191?

Quoting timothy31388 (Reply 42): "Pressed repeatedly on what information the military had given authorities, he finally replied that "now is not the time" to reveal it."

All is not being revealed, obviously for good reason. Because either the revelation of that information would compromise current ops, or that the government is as fault. Does anyone know if Indonesia has been conducting land searches in Aceh? It's a volatile region.