United To Expand Service At IAH With New ERJ175s

AVENSAB727 · Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:06 pm

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/m...xpand-service-from-houston-to.html

IAH-AUS, IAH-ATL, IAH-MSY will get the new ERJ175s starting this June. Wonder what other routes will get them.

a380787 · Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:09 pm

are these used to up-size from ERJs or actually downsizing from mainline ?

AVENSAB727 · Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:13 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 1):

I think up sizing.

commavia · Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:19 pm

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 2):
are these used to up-size from ERJs or actually downsizing from mainline ?

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 2):
I think up sizing.

Perhaps upsizing from what they're immediately replacing, although of course mostly downsizing from what was operated in these markets a mere few years ago. If I'm not mistaken, most if not all the flights between IAH and at least AUS and MSY, and possibly also ATL, were mainline as recently as the late 2000s.

CO777DAL · Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:20 pm

AUS and MSY downsizing. CO used to fly almost all mainline to AUS and MSY. I flown 733,735,737,738,739 into AUS. Also flown that plus 753 into MSY. I also flown 738 into ATL. I think all have been downgauge since merger. Heck most of the routes I fly have been downgauge since merger.

AVENSAB727 · Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:21 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 3):

I see, but IAH-MSY and IAH AUS still have mainline service.

a380787 · Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:34 pm

checking next weds :

IAH-MSY is 11x, anywhere between ERJ and 739

IAH-AUS is 11x, 1x ERJ 1x 739 and everything in between, more than 50% mainline

IAH-ATL is 8x but all regional, 2x CR7 but everything else CRJ/ERJ.

So MSY/AUS is probably mixed (depending on which flight they're changing), but I'm guessing it's mostly a positive change for ATL

ScottB · Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:36 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 3):
Perhaps upsizing from what they're immediately replacing, although of course mostly downsizing from what was operated in these markets a mere few years ago. If I'm not mistaken, most if not all the flights between IAH and at least AUS and MSY, and possibly also ATL, were mainline as recently as the late 2000s.

IAH-AUS was all-mainline until post-merger, as was IAH-MSY, which often would see the 757-300. UA has basically handed IAH-ATL to DL with almost all flying on the route being on 50-seat RJ's.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 1):
are these used to up-size from ERJs or actually downsizing from mainline ?

It's entirely unclear from the press release. IAH-ATL is probably an upgauge since it's virtually all 50-seaters (apart from one daily round-trip) but we'd have to see the schedules to see which flights on IAH-AUS/MSY are replaced with the E175. If past experience is any guide, it's a downgauge.

CALMSP · Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:50 pm

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 4):

difference now is that you can fly AUS-ORD/IAD/DEN/LAX/SFO. Wasn't possible before, so its simlply offering the same amount of availability for the former CO AUS fliers, just at a few smaller planes. Mainline service AUS-IAH is no longer necessary for all flgihts.

As for the IAH-ATL, it does not appear to be an upgauge. It appears to be replacing the current CR7 at 1434 departure. Hopefully that CR7 is then replacing a CRJ/ERJ somewhere else.

MesaFlyGuy · Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:38 pm

I hope this will mean upguaging longer flights ex-IAH as well. CHS, SAV, and RIC all come to mind.

TWA772LR · Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:54 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 9):
CHS, SAV

These are leisure destinations. I don't see them going past the 50 seat ERJ IMO.

The article states these are going to be flown by Mesa.

tommy767 · Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:58 pm

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 4):

Definitely downsizing as of even 2 years ago. IAH-ATL had 320 and IAH-AUS had up to a 757.

Unfortunately this downsizing trend is affecting not just IAH (actually might be an upgrade for IAH folks considering it's 50-seat RJ city.) ORD-BOS and ORD-DCA will go with some E175 which used to be hourly on 737, 757, 319, and 320.

FlyPNS1 · Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:06 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 10):

These are leisure destinations. I don't see them going past the 50 seat ERJ IMO.

Maybe, but plenty of other carriers manage to fly larger RJ's or mainline to CHS/SAV like DL, B6, US. Granted, UA's historical weakness in the Southeast probably dooms them to being a sideline player in these markets. However, I'm not sure how UA will make money on small RJ's flying such long stage length flights.

AMALH747430 · Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:08 pm

I believe some of those markets are currently served with some CR7s in the mix. I wonder if UA might replace some of the ER4s on the IAH-AMA route with CR7s as the E75s come into the fleet? I am by not a big fan of the CRJ family and I will take an ER4 over a CR2 any day of the week but it would be nice to have an Economy Plus section on flights out of AMA.

jetmatt777 · Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:35 pm

In the may schedule, there is one floating around on IAH-OKC certain days of the week. Tuesdays I think.

SaabFA71 · Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:08 pm

I'd like to see an IAH-MDT route open up with the E-175!

yellowtail · Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:01 pm

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Thread starter):
IAH-MSY

IF anything UA needs to upgrade this route….I fly this frequently and these flight go full to the gills….especially the ones that connect to the C. American banks at IAH.

IAHWorldflyer · Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:02 pm

With the exception on MSY, there is not a single station in the UA system in the southeast with the exceptions of Florida and IAD/DCA that sees any mainline service out of IAH:
RIC
RDU
CLT
GSO
CHS
ATL
SAV
GSP
HSV
BHM
MOB
JAN
TYS
BNA
MEM
LIT
BTR
SHV
SDF
LEX

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 12):
Granted, UA's historical weakness in the Southeast probably dooms them to being a sideline player in these markets.

Delta really owns the market share in all these cities

tommy767 · Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting iahworldflyer (Reply 17):

It's sad really. There is just not enough mainline to go around these days. Only the current managment team is to blame for shortsighting the viability of their hubs.

Although 2 years ago before UA went gangbusters on retiring 757s, IAH-RDU and IAH-ATL had mainline.

USAirALB · Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:11 pm

CLT-IAH had mainline about two years ago too.

jsnww81 · Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:41 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 18):
It's sad really. There is just not enough mainline to go around these days. Only the current managment team is to blame for shortsighting the viability of their hubs.

Although 2 years ago before UA went gangbusters on retiring 757s, IAH-RDU and IAH-ATL had mainline.

I agree - mainline at UA is stretched really tightly and almost every new frame coming in will be replacing an outgoing one.

If precedent is anything to go on, these new E175s will be replacing mainline as often as they upgauge existing ERJ flights. That's been the pattern every time the E170/175 series has entered service with a major carrier here in the US. A lucky few routes do get upgauged, but many more are put on routes in place of 737s or A320s.

I wouldn't get too starry-eyed about the prospects of E175s to tons and tons of mid-tier cities from IAH. The fact that the three inaugural routes were all very recently served by mainline is very telling. I think we'll be seeing them deployed from IAH to more major markets than many folks here realize.

IAHWorldflyer · Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:55 pm

One of the big reasons mainline is stretched tight is UA management's philosophy that frequency of service is king. I understand the reasoning behind it, but when you schedule 10+ mainline flights per day on large city pairs, it doesn't leave lots of slack in the system to put mainline on secondary routes. Frequency also means you have 6 flights running tomorrow between IAH and BNA as an example. All E145's , but you get a flight almost every 2 hours.

MSYtristar · Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:20 pm

You can still get a random 752 on IAH-MSY from time to time but the 753's seem to be a goner. I haven't seen one in a while. There is frequent 739 service though... plus a bunch of 32S and 738 as well. I hope the E75's are upgauges for the ERJ's, but you never know with UA.

One thing about the airline is that they change equipment constantly throughout the week. On a Monday your flight might be on a 738, Tuesday it's an ERJ, Wednesday a 319, and so on. Very fluid, dynamic scheduling, trying to match capacity to demand on any given day.

tommy767 · Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:31 pm

Quoting iahworldflyer (Reply 21):

It's also an issue when there is any kind of weather in the area which creates a backlog and most of those ERJs will end up being cancelled (see UA's performance in January.) Frequency is great when it isnt outsourced and on a 50 seat jet but UA isnt really following that playbook. AA and DL are though.

Also what's not good is the 170s will 1:1 replace the 145s. That's still well over 200 ERJs when the 170 orders are completed.

ScottB · Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:02 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 18):
Only the current managment team is to blame for shortsighting the viability of their hubs.

I'd say pmUA management is even more to blame for parking about one third of the domestic mainline fleet with nothing to replace it but 70-seat RJ's. IAH has been paying the price for that decision as pmCO aircraft have been shifted to the pmUA hubs.

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 8):
difference now is that you can fly AUS-ORD/IAD/DEN/LAX/SFO. Wasn't possible before, so its simlply offering the same amount of availability for the former CO AUS fliers, just at a few smaller planes. Mainline service AUS-IAH is no longer necessary for all flgihts.

It would be nice if that were really true, but it's not. In 2009, CO & UA combined boarded just over 883,000 passengers at MSY. In 2013, that declined to 790,000 -- even as total domestic boardings at MSY increased from 3.9 million to 4.6 million.

tommy767 · Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:06 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 24):
I'd say pmUA management is even more to blame for parking about one third of the domestic mainline fleet with nothing to replace it but 70-seat RJ's. IAH has been paying the price for that decision as pmCO aircraft have been shifted to the pmUA hubs.

Not sure about that.

UA may have parked the older 737s but they also had F on 70 seat regionals to compensate. CO was limited by the scope clause and they also had a lot more 50 seat RJ's than UA. The proper course would have been proactivity in the merger where both CO and UA RJ's get dumped in favor of a combination of mainline and larger RJs.

ScottB · Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:12 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 25):
CO was limited by the scope clause and they also had a lot more 50 seat RJ's than UA.

The CO scope clause basically meant that CO operated mainline aircraft in markets like IAH-MSY & IAH-AUS which have gone largely RJ today. CO's large fleet of 737's has been backfilling for the reduction in capacity in the pmUA hubs which saw substantial cuts when the 737 Classic fleet was parked.

And there's no good way to blame CO's fleet of 50-seaters for IAH-ATL going all-RJ, considering that CO operated IAH-ATL with mostly mainline equipment.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 25):
The proper course would have been proactivity in the merger where both CO and UA RJ's get dumped in favor of a combination of mainline and larger RJs.

It would -- if UA management were interested in the domestic market. They're not.

MaverickM11 · Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:14 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 24):
I'd say pmUA management is even more to blame for parking about one third of the domestic mainline fleet with nothing to replace it but 70-seat RJ's.

If you opened UA's order book in 2009, bats would fly out.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 24):
It would be nice if that were really true, but it's not.

UA excels at handing traffic over to competitors, through a multitude of strategies, like fleeting for example:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 7):
UA has basically handed IAH-ATL to DL with almost all flying on the route being on 50-seat RJ's.

[Edited 2014-03-13 14:18:49]

tommy767 · Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:15 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
CO's large fleet of 737's has been backfilling for the reduction in capacity in the pmUA hubs which saw substantial cuts when the 737 Classic fleet was parked.

It's not. It's from retiring the 757s. Note that more and more mainline keeps dissapearing from ORD.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
It would -- if UA management were interested in the domestic market. They're not.

Which doesn't really make sense considering the competition is making a killing on the domestic market.

ABQopsHP · Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:55 pm

Quoting iahworldflyer (Reply 17):

I know CRP is not in the SE. But there are a number of cities in the SW/TX region that have not seen mainline service in years. I believe CRP has not had CO/UA mainline in almost 10 years. WN has cut back to 4 flights a day. AA put on 2 A319s on, most days of the week. Reduced in the middle and on weekends. Im beginning to wonder if the market is simply not there to sustain anything much bigger than 50 seats 6 times a day, CRP-IAH.

JD CRP

MSPNWA · Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:17 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 18):
It's sad really. There is just not enough mainline to go around these days. Only the current managment team is to blame for shortsighting the viability of their hubs.

A lot of this mainline "shortage" is a matter of false perception. UA's domestic mainline usage is very different from, say, DL. UA operates their planes on comparatively much longer stage lengths. In 2013 for example, DL had about 50% more mainline flights than UA. Yet their ASMs were less than 5% more. In fact if you adjust for fleet size and capacity, UA may get more hours out of their mainline fleet. But when someone looks at the flight schedule, the first thing they tally is the number of flights. With UA they will see more RJs simply because of different utilization. That's not to say UA couldn't use more mainline here and there, but UA is getting a lot of what the have. And it wouldn't be cheap to expand the fleet either. You can only buy so many planes at a time.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
The CO scope clause basically meant that CO operated mainline aircraft in markets like IAH-MSY & IAH-AUS which have gone largely RJ today.

The mainline flying back then was thanks to an inefficient reliance on IAH for being the main piece in the route network. It was a simple example of economies of scale, but it wouldn't be an efficient one in the post-merger airline world. Now with the ability to shuffle the fleet around to more efficient hubs for some routes, the ERJ has become very important for IAH in order to right-size frequency and capacity.

TW870 · Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:22 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 7):
UA has basically handed IAH-ATL to DL with almost all flying on the route being on 50-seat RJ's.

Indeed. DL schedule tomorrow on IAH-ATL is 2xCR9 and 6x320.

stxbohn · Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:57 pm

Quoting iahworldflyer (Reply 17):
With the exception on MSY, there is not a single station in the UA system in the southeast with the exceptions of Florida and IAD/DCA that sees any mainline service out of IAH:
RIC
RDU
CLT
GSO

So wish you were right and there was still even a single direct RJ to GSO. They cut that I'd say at least a year ago with their 10% downsize from IAH. What happens when they lose US Airways as their Star partner, any hopes of getting this route back? Huge intra-Southeast hole with the loss of US Airways for United.

I remember the 735/733 back in the day on IAH-GSO before barbie jets really came out - was an easy upgrade flight back then too!

tommy767 · Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:00 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 30):
That's not to say UA couldn't use more mainline here and there, but UA is getting a lot of what the have. And it wouldn't be cheap to expand the fleet either. You can only buy so many planes at a time.

They can start by phasing out the 270 50 seat RJ's in massive numbers. DL and AA seem hip this plan.

toxtethogrady · Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:25 pm

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Thread starter):
IAH-AUS, IAH-ATL, IAH-MSY will get the new ERJ175s starting this June. Wonder what other routes will get them.

One would hope the list will grow over time. But the initial services are once daily, so it's a very modest start. AA and DL are moving the 175's into their hubs in a big way.

toxtethogrady · Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:33 pm

An AA pilot I talked to claims the 50-seat Embraers were a mistake of an investment for his carrier, yet UA continues to rely on them for a lot of markets out of IAH. I'm not sure whether this is management still playing games with the union, but given the wealth of the market and the job growth (90,000 YOY from 1/13 to 1/14), there are a lot of potential customers - all of whom are going to end up at Southwest.

SurfandSnow · Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:01 pm

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Thread starter):
Wonder what other routes will get them.

How about IAH-ABQ//BJX/BNA/CLE/CLT/COS/DAL/DTW/ELP/GDL/GSO/IND/JAX/MCI/MFE/MSP/MTY/OKC/OMA/ORF/PBI/PIT/RDU/RIC/RSW/SAT/SLC/STL/TUS/YYZ/ZIH?

Sadly, knowing UA, they'll probably just end up doing stuff like IAH-CUN/DCA/DEN/DFW/MEX/MIA/ORD/PHL/PHX/TPA instead

a380787 · Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:18 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 36):
Sadly, knowing UA, they'll probably just end up doing stuff like IAH-CUN/DCA/DEN/DFW/MEX/MIA/ORD/PHL/PHX/TPA instead

If Embraer ever launch E170LR with 3000mi range, SFO-EWR and SFO-HNL will be seeing them

CALMSP · Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:12 pm

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 35):

that pilot is wrong. any mainline pilot will say that it is a mistake to have any type of RJ.

cxb744 · Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:02 pm

All three of these routes are currently served by e170's of Shuttle America. Seems to be a swap out, or seat increase.

tommy767 · Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:39 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 37):
If Embraer ever launch E170LR with 3000mi range, SFO-EWR and SFO-HNL will be seeing them

Are you being sarcastic or for real?

An E170LR would not be a good for the above routes you mentioned at all.

MSYtristar · Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:13 am

On a random Monday in June, this is what United is showing equipment wise in the three markets mentioned:

ATL

8X ERJ
1X E75

AUS

1X ERJ
4X CR7
1X E70
1X E75
1X 73G
1X 320
2X 739

MSY

1X ERJ
1X CR7
1X E70
1X E75
1X 319
3X 320
2X 738
1X 739

IAHWorldflyer · Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:47 am

They would be more competitive with DL if the early morning and 5pm departures to ATL were on mainline equipment. But I don't do the scheduling, so my opinion doesn't count.

a300 · Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:04 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 7):
IAH-AUS was all-mainline until post-merger, as was IAH-MSY, which often would see the 757-300. UA has basically handed IAH-ATL to DL with almost all flying on the route being on 50-seat RJ's.

Way back in the mid-90s there were even A300 flights on some IAH-MSY flights.

22-Feb-93 Continental Airlines CO COA 147 Y MSY IAH A300B4

PMUA787 · Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:01 pm

How long has it been since CO or UA had mainline service into ELP?

It would be nice to see an E170 on the routes out of ELP especially to ORD. 3 hours on the 145 should be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

If any of what was said in another post about Expressjet imploding from within UA is going to have quite the quandry if it does quit operating.

codc10 · Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:25 pm

One thing a lot of folks forget about is that pulling down the sCO 737-500 fleet has resulted in most former 735 markets going RJ, instead of upgauge to 738/9. Before the E75s, the only 70+-seaters the company added since the merger are Q400s, so the former UA markets which previously had large RJ service have seen more 50-seaters, and the former CO 735 markets are generally a combination of 70-seaters and 50-seaters.

Now, we are seeing more pressure at the top end of the domestic market as 757-222s are being retired faster than 739ERs are coming on property to replace them, and 757-300s are mostly all dedicated to transcon/Hawaii flying in former UA markets. This need is probably more pertinent than replacing the 50-seaters at the moment, so I suspect the bulk of the E75s will be replacing mainline on shorter, high-frequency routes to shift that capacity further upstream.

UA444 · Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:31 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):

Nevermind the fact that in 2009, UA ordered 50 widebody jets. They also had sent out RFP to Boeing, Airbus, and Embraer for new narrowbody aircraft and were going to decide by spring 2010 before the merger was announced.

But don't let those facts get in the way of your constant PMUA bashing.d

[Edited 2014-03-15 12:32:46]

AVENSAB727 · Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:18 am

So will the new ERJ 175 replace the older RJs such as the 145.

CALMSP · Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:22 pm

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 47):

not in the ATL marke. It is replacing the CRJ-700, although some days it is scheduled as an ERJ, so its a mix of both.

MIflyer12 · Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:35 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 46):
Nevermind the fact that in 2009, UA ordered 50 widebody jets. They also had sent out RFP to Boeing, Airbus, and Embraer for new narrowbody aircraft and were going to decide by spring 2010 before the merger was announced.

But don't let those facts get in the way of your constant PMUA bashing.d

From June 2009:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/trave...2009-06-04-united-new-planes_N.htm

'United Airlines (UAUA), which hasn't ordered any planes in 11 years, appears poised to place a huge order — maybe.'

'A big order would also be a major shift for United, which has refused to order new planes in the past and shrank its fleet by 34% this decade, from 604 at the end of 2000, to 396 planes as of March 31.'

"They once had 47 747s, now they have 26," Pilarski says. "They had 54 767s, now they have 35. And when you add the DC-10s that were retired, they have had a huge reduction in their wide-body fleet.

"If they want to stay in this business — even if they still want somebody to eventually buy them out — they have to have at least a pretense of a viable ongoing operation."

Pretense of viable - that was quite an aspiration in the Tilton days.

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