Good morning a.nutters! My, my but isn't this still interesting. Day seven!
On a side note, I wonder how many new subscriptions a.nut is getting. Happy to see so many lurkers coming out to play.
|Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 2):|
I was watching CNN and thought of this question. I apologize if it has been asked before, but I do not think this exact one was asked before. What if all of the communications and satellite equipment just died - due to mechanical issues - and the pilots got turned around to the point where they were running out of fuel and tried to land safely in the water, but failed to do it safely?
It seems extremely unlikely that all that equipment AND
the instruments died at the same time.
|Quoting B747forever (Reply 18):|
Quoting gosimeon (Reply 16):
The data reporting system, they believe, was shut down 1:07 a.m. The transponder -- which transmits location and altitude -- shut down at 1:21 a.m."
Why would the shut down of the two systems be separated by more than 10 minutes?
From the vague info we have, and discounting the "still alive" claims, ACARS simply sent the last report at 1:07. We don't know if and when it shut down.
|Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 28):|
What time was "all right good night" and what sort of warning does flight deck get if ACARS fails?
Presumably an error message on the MFD (or whatever Boeing calls the MFD) and/or the FMC.
|Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 33):|
Quoting KIAS (Reply 14):
I personally do not subscribe to the hijiacking theories. I think we will learn this was a catastrophic event which may have also involved the electrical systems.
You know I looked at as much passenger info as I could get and I just didn't see it happening. How would the passengers even know how to turn off the various comms devices. I don't see the pilots slamming it into the sea either but its certainly possible.
Is it possible they got signals from under the sea? Somehow off battery power?
Nah. The water would block the signal.
|Quoting FltAdmiralRitt (Reply 47):|
One thing clearly stands out. A fast impact with the ocean will leave few pieces larger than
your typical floor mat, and no structure of the aircraft will retain airpockets large enough to float.
that leaves Overhead compartments contents and pieces of foam from seats.
Au contraire. AF447 and Adam Air crashed at a high rate of speed and there were still large pieces found.
|Quoting teo747 (Reply 86):|
Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 80):
But does this include abandoned airports? Also, if it were a planned incident, they could have built a rudimentary lading strip somewhere...
Without anyone noticing? This isn't a James Bond movie in which they can land a huge airliner and taxi it into the underground volcano lair. With all the surveillance and satellite imaging capability out there, if there were a 777 sitting on the ground somewhere it isn't supposed to be, it would be utterly shocking to find out that it hasn't been found by now.
Yes but wouldn't an underground volcano lair be awesome?
Answers from previous two threads. Apologies for any duplication.
SSTeve: Also, is the engine data sent to RR
Anaswer: Yes it is. ACARS covers a wide range of stuff, including free text messaging.
SQ452: I have talked to my friends in the PR
industry on this and the overwhelming consensus on this is they have completely failed to do a proper job managing this crisis. This crisis management and how information was shared, disseminated and then contradicted will be a case study on exactly what NOT to do. Failure to have control of the information flow and coordination of information has given the impression they are unable to properly coordinate this SAR.
Answer: Agreed. I talked about this about five threads ago. The first and biggest mistake was not to assign an experienced person to be the only contact with the press, and to muzzle everyone else.
hivue: This aircraft never reached a gate. If RR
gets their engine data by gatelink after the flight then that makes the story sound like just another groundless rumor.
Answer: It would make sense to send brief summaries in flight, in case anything needed maintenance on landing, and then do the whole download at the gate.
B-HOP: Did anyone feel fuel load mentioned say something, if its a five and a half hour flight, why then the Captain take an extra two hour worth of fuel and more to be burnt enroute, was fog forcasted in Beijing? No wonder MH
loses money, does that gave a red herring away?
Answer: For a flight of this length, 2 hours of fuel beyond trip fuel would be pretty normal. Taking the most common applicable fuel regulation, this would be fuel to reach an alternate airport in case of diversion, contingency fuel (5% minimum ) and final reserve (30 minutes).
captainx: Can all the transmitters on the plane be turned off from the cockpit - yes or no?
Answer: No. To cut ACARS you need to access the electronics bay behind and under the cockpit.
sennabestever: This is probably way far fetched but since I know nothing about space and how high commercial airlines can get I'll throw it out there just for my own curiosity. What if they plane had a mechanical issue that knocked out comms and put it into an uncontrollable ascent? Is it possible it's floating around up there in near space? Assuming NO, but just curious if this would even be possible?
Answer: No that isn't even remotely possible. An airliner could reach maybe 45000-50000 feet depending on weight. That's too low to achieve a stable orbit due to atmospheric drag, and besides the speed would be much much too low for orbit.
captainx: It only takes 6000 feet to land a 777.
Answer: Nowhere near that far. At low weights the published distance is 4500 feet, but that includes the mandated safety factor and assumes 50ft height at the threshold. Removing the safety factor gives 2695 feet and if you assume 20ft at the threshold you're cutting a few more hundred ft.
flyingturtle: I think Starlionblue mentioned 4500 ft for a lightly loaded/fueled 777, and 3000 ft if you have balls (and don't plan to take off again). On a grass strip, it could be even less.
Answer: Actually grass would make the distance longer. Less friction for the brakes. Also you are quite likely to sink in and damage something. You could land a 727 or 737 on grass/gravel but a 777 stretches the imagination unless you had a very well prepared compacted gravel base with perhaps those metal mesh "instant runway" things the military used to use.
boacvc10: Also: Is this not a situation where we can say it is the Titanic of all aviation disasters?
Answer: Not really. With the Titanic the news and location was already out before the ship sank. This is more Marie Celeste at this point.
nupogodi: The 404th and it can't be found... What a coincidence.
Answer: For the record, I'm not superstitious. However interestingly the number four is very unlucky in Chinese culture because it sounds similar to "death". The majority of buildings in HK
have a fourth or fourteenth floor.
FltAdmiralRitt: Air France 447 did leave some larger debris on the surface, but you will recall it impacted the water with almost level wings and belly flopped, stalling at a 1:1 stall ratio or so. it was not moving at maximum speed. closer to 200Knts Considering how rugged the 777, it might have stayed intact while plunging in at far greater speed.
Answer: There's no evidence that a 777 would withstand a given impact better than a 330. They are built to the same specification standards and Boeing is not in the habit of making the structure heavier than it needs to be. Also, what do you mean by "1:1 stall ratio"?
hivue: It took one 767 each to bring down the WTC towers. A 777 gone totally missing is indeed not a comfortable thought.
Answer: Actually it took two, but I take your point.
BruceSmith: Further into speculation, how would a high voltage short on one of the power buses affect cockpit equipment? Could it blow something critical to steering the aircraft leaving the pilots with no input into the flight? Could it trigger a localized fire in the cockpit similar to the Egyptair MS
667 incident that asphyxiated the pilots and left the plane flying stable until it ran out of fuel or lost altitude? A quickish incapacitation by smoke inhalation might explain the heading change if one of the pilots hit a rudder pedal or the yoke during the asphyxiation.
Answer: The radios are not on the same bus as the flight controls, and they're not all on the same bus either. And you'd have to hold the yoke or rudder positively for a bit to make the autopilot to switch off.
Difrano789: Cockpit hit by a very small meteor, destroy the instruments and incapacitate or kill both pilots, no instruments no transponders no comms, the damage is not enough to break the plane and debris so small that impossible to trace on ground, computers still working and able to keep control on surfaces and throttle, due to destruction of the autopilot console the computer may have received any signal, for example heading 280, altitude FL298, and it flew until ran out of fuel somewhere in the world?
Answer: The problem with this is that if the meteor only takes the radios and transponder and leaves the flight controls and throttle, ACARS would still be functioning since it is in the electronics bay. Also, there would have been debris. Somewhere.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo