Can DFW Support Three Middle East Carriers?

Fastphilly · Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:39 am

By the end of this year DFW will have three Middle East airlines EK, EY, and QR. Is the international O&D to that region large enough to support all three? Out of the three only Qatar is an Alliance carrier (One World) which is understandable with the AA comnnections and the DFW O&D. But what about EK and EY? Can the Metroplex support those other two carriers on O&D for the foreseeable future?

The reason I bring this up is because my hometown airport SFO only has one Middle East carrier EK and it's a daily 777. Both CSA's are close in population and I'm sure the Bay Area comes close or matches the DFW Metroplex with traffic to that region as well as the Indian subcontinent.

Your thoughts?

IAHflyer97 · Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:19 am

Very easily. Should have no problem.

gdg9 · Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:58 pm

We are fixing to find out for sure here soon. By most accounts it is failry likely that EK will upgrade their DFW service to a 380 from the 77L around October.

Should be very interesting.

[Edited 2014-03-14 09:59:25]

LAXdude1023 · Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:03 pm

Quoting Fastphilly (Thread starter):
By the end of this year DFW will have three Middle East airlines EK, EY, and QR. Is the international O&D to that region large enough to support all three? Out of the three only Qatar is an Alliance carrier (One World) which is understandable with the AA comnnections and the DFW O&D. But what about EK and EY? Can the Metroplex support those other two carriers on O&D for the foreseeable future?

Lets break it down by carrier:

QR: Alliance/codeshare partners with AA. QR just became the new favorite for DFW based fliers because of the ability to earn miles.

EK: They have had great success in DFW. Jim Baxter (Emirates VP) told the Fort Worth chamber of commerce that the flight has been a resounding success. Its easy to believe by loads alone. Some months, the loads have been above 97%. Year round, loads have been over 90%. That doesnt translate to yields, but I know they have done well here.

EY: Codeshare partners with AA. Not to mention that they are only coming with 3x weekly flights.

Basically you have 17x weekly flights from DFW to the Gulf. Given connections, that should be just fine. DFW-Middle East and (especially) DFW-India is an extremely large market.

You reference SFO in your OP, yes SFO-India is huge. Its larger than DFW-India by a good bit. However, LH OWNS SFO-India. They have a stranglehold on that market that not even AA/BA have in DFW. They hold all the valuble contracts and overwhelmingly control SFO-BLR (by far the most lucrative SFO-India market). This makes it harder for the other carriers.

Another thing that cannot be ignored is that UA/LH refuse to work with the ME3. American is all about working with them. That makes it harder to show up at a UA stronghold.

gdg9 · Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:23 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 3):
17x weekly flights from DFW to the Gulf

This fact makes me wonder what the future holds for LH and KLM's seasonal service. They both seem to lean heavily on connections. How much of a bite will the two additional carriers, and the extra lift from EK (assuming the 380 does indeed come). We will have to see how that plays out.

I'm pleasantly surprised to see KLM keep coming back. A few years ago I know they were not exactly printing money on the passenger service, but cargo more than paid the bills, from what I was told.

LAXdude1023 · Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:25 pm

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 4):
This fact makes me wonder what the future holds for LH and KLM's seasonal service. They both seem to lean heavily on connections. How much of a bite will the two additional carriers, and the extra lift from EK (assuming the 380 does indeed come). We will have to see how that plays out.

Im surprised KLM is even bothering. Pax wise, they do very poorly out of DFW. LH will be fine simply because DFW-FRA is a large market and the connections they offer are unique to what BA does. Nobody has a Continental Europe route network like LH.

ojas · Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 3):
However, LH OWNS SFO-India. They have a stranglehold on that market that not even AA/BA have in DFW. They hold all the valuble contracts and overwhelmingly control SFO-BLR (by far the most lucrative SFO-India market). This makes it harder for the other carriers.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 3):

That is not correct that 'LH OWNS SFO-India'; that may have been the case in 2008 but not today.

Here are some observations:

1) SFO - BOM market; EK has out sold LH with the top 2 carriers on this route being CX and KE.

2) SFO - MAA/HYD market; EK has the highest market share amongst all the carriers.

3) COK/AMD/TRV/CCU etc is by default on EK only.

4) SFO - BLR too EK is outsold LH with a lot of corporate contracts that once LH held are with EK.

4) SFO - DEL EK is very much there in the top 5 along with CX, OZ, UA, NH, JL, et al.

As far as DFW is concerned, It's just a matter of time before EY announces daily flights there. So we can safely assume 1 daily each from EK, EY, QR.

Also do note that DFW - KHI is a very important market, traditionally this traffic had to go via Europe and then connect to some middle eastern carrier to fly to Pakistan. That significant segment would also no longer be there with the European carriers.

[Edited 2014-03-14 13:59:12]

LAXdude1023 · Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:08 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 6):
Here are some observations:

1) SFO - BOM market; EK has out sold LH with the top 2 carriers on this route being CX and KE.

2) SFO - MAA/HYD market; EK has the highest market share amongst all the carriers.

3) COK/AMD/TRV/CCU etc is by default on EK only.

4) SFO - BLR too EK is outsold LH with a lot of corporate contracts that once LH held are with EK.

4) SFO - DEL EK is very much there in the top 5 along with CX, OZ, UA, NH, JL, et al.

Thats very interesting. Thanks for that. Last I was dealing with the SFO-India market, LH pretty much took the cake. In fairness that was circa 2010.

a380787 · Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:16 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 3):
Another thing that cannot be ignored is that UA/LH refuse to work with the ME3. American is all about working with them. That makes it harder to show up at a UA stronghold.

Every pax that AA sends to QR/EY is one less pax that will travel on AA/BA JV (DFW-LHR-India)

Unless AA see code-share profit actually exceeding JV profit, AA is not doing itself any favors

(but if these are all 5cent yield VFR pax, then by all means, send them to QR)

mdavies06 · Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:36 pm

Just to add, for the other side of Asia, AA is suppose to be launching DFW - HKG and that flight connects with CX on their wave of flights to India and a few other South Asia cities.

[Edited 2014-03-14 14:37:23]

Fastphilly · Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:50 am

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 4):

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 2):
We are fixing to find out for sure here soon. By most accounts it is failry likely that EK will upgrade their DFW service to a 380 from the 77L around October.

Should be very interesting.

I have heard the same thing with SFO getting a EK A380 in December. I have heard that the DFW EK flights are full, but I just can't see EK having the load factors now when EY and QR move in by the end of the year. If EK still has good load factors after the other two are at DFW then I doubt they would fill an A380 on the DFW-DXB route.

B757capt · Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:34 pm

Quoting Fastphilly (Thread starter):

I would have asked the question differently. Can the Middle East support 3 flights a day to DFW?

I think the answer is yes and then some.

hohd · Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:14 pm

While QR may be an alliance member, but you cannot earn miles on most of its economy fares on American. All the oneworld members will soon realize that. In addition, with QR, now EY's alliance with AA will become suspect. So either QR or EY will have to cut down or pull out.

In short DFW cannot support 3 carriers. EK will be fine, but it will be a battle between QR and EY.

commavia · Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:39 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 8):
Every pax that AA sends to QR/EY is one less pax that will travel on AA/BA JV (DFW-LHR-India)

Unless AA see code-share profit actually exceeding JV profit, AA is not doing itself any favors

So goes life. No different than United awarding its U.S. frequent flyers mileage, under the auspices of Star Alliance, for flying on all the extensive array of partners across the Pacific who directly and indirectly complete with United and its JV partners. And I can assure you United has more of its own network revenue exposed across the Pacific to non-JV frequent flyer partner carriers than AA has to India, a market it doesn't even serve with its own planes. If anything, BA likely stands to lose more, proportionately, from QR's expansion in the U.S. than AA, and yet BA has thus far seemed quite fine with QR joining oneworld, despite the obvious competitive consequences.

If a U.S. AAdvantage member chooses of their own free will to fly QR to India, AA just has to deal with it. Nonetheless, if it only further enhances the options available for AAdvantage members to get to India, then indirectly it just further enhances the overall AA value proposition for those passengers for whom India is a key market. And that it most definitely does - I know multiple business travelers who nearly commute to DEL, on a near-monthly basis, and many of them cannot wait to use QR's flights through DOH. Between AA, QR, CX and EY, AA already offers its frequent flyers pretty extensive and convenient access to India.

YouGeeElWhy · Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:40 pm

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 10):
Just to add, for the other side of Asia, AA is suppose to be launching DFW - HKG and that flight connects with CX on their wave of flights to India and a few other South Asia cities.

Not sure how relevant this will be since CX and AA do no code sharing on this flight. Right now you would need to buy separate tickets for DFW-HKG-India. Hopefully they will coordinate in the future.

Viscount724 · Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:08 pm

Quoting YouGeeElWhy (Reply 14):
Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 10):
Just to add, for the other side of Asia, AA is suppose to be launching DFW - HKG and that flight connects with CX on their wave of flights to India and a few other South Asia cities.

Not sure how relevant this will be since CX and AA do no code sharing on this flight. Right now you would need to buy separate tickets for DFW-HKG-India. Hopefully they will coordinate in the future.

Assuming CX and AA have an interline ticketing agreement which they almost certainly do, you don't have to buy separate tickets. They can easily issue a single ticket covering both CX and AA flights, and all other significant carriers other than the LCCs that don't interline.

ASA · Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:25 pm

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 2):
By most accounts it is failry likely that EK will upgrade their DFW service to a 380 from the 77L around October.

Could you please share some sources on this?

77L to 380 is almost doubling the capacity - sounds pretty incredible!

77L to 77W makes more sense ... like it's being debated for BOS

travaz · Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:44 am

OIL.......... Is a major connection between the two areas. Filler

factsonly · Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:01 am

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 4):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 3):
17x weekly flights from DFW to the Gulf

This fact makes me wonder what the future holds for LH and KLM's seasonal service. They both seem to lean heavily on connections. How much of a bite will the two additional carriers, and the extra lift from EK (assuming the 380 does indeed come). We will have to see how that plays out.

I'm pleasantly surprised to see KLM keep coming back. A few years ago I know they were not exactly printing money on the passenger service, but cargo more than paid the bills, from what I was told.

We have to realise that KLM, and to a lesser extend LH, are no longer relying on DFW-India or DFW-Gulf traffic to maintain their DFW-Europe service.

KLM's strategy is to build links between the world's main business centers and unique regional destinations (especially in Europe, but also elsewhere). KLM offers a number of unique destinations in Europe and beyond Europe (TRD, AES, KRS, LPI, MME, HUY, NWI, CWL, MSE, FUK, XMN, TPE, JRO, PBM, KGL, EBB, HRE, LUN). Very few other airlines connect DFW with these destinations, on top of all the regular business and tourist centers.

It was stated that LH's European network is unrivaled, which in certain countries is true. Yet, KLM has the edge over LH in the UK, Benelux and Scandinavia and certain global regions (PTY, LIM, DAR, MNL, DPS, CTU) to name a few.

I would state that KLM's seasonal DFW-AMS route is a great example of how airlines increasingly choose to flexibly address the seasonality of demand by allocating some of their aircraft to seasonal routes. Canada's Air Transat being the absolute king of such long-haul network flexibility.

gdg9 · Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:25 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 16):
Could you please share some sources on this?

I would refer you to the recent thread on this which discussed in length. In short, sources are several people at the airport who are "in the know" on these things and others who have their ear to the ground. It is not confirmed yet, but at this point, I'd put the odds at 90% that it is EK. We do know for sure that a carrier will bring the 380 to DFW in October, the airport has essentially confirmed as much.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 18):
We have to realise that KLM, and to a lesser extend LH, are no longer relying on DFW-India or DFW-Gulf traffic to maintain their DFW-Europe service.

Very good points, and indeed, perhaps I have been relying on thinking from a few years ago. Thank you for the post and explanation. I would certainly hope to see both KL and LH stay and succeed here at DFW.

commavia · Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:46 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 18):
We have to realise that KLM, and to a lesser extend LH, are no longer relying on DFW-India or DFW-Gulf traffic to maintain their DFW-Europe service.

From what I've seen, both carriers - and especially KLM - are still very much reliant on connections over their U.S. hubs, and India features prominently in the connecting traffic flows they focus on. The problem for KLM is that it's by far the weakest link now in the trans-Atlantic longhaul market out of DFW.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 18):
KLM offers a number of unique destinations in Europe and beyond Europe (TRD, AES, KRS, LPI, MME, HUY, NWI, CWL, MSE, FUK, XMN, TPE, JRO, PBM, KGL, EBB, HRE, LUN). Very few other airlines connect DFW with these destinations, on top of all the regular business and tourist centers.

Okay, but that doesn't amount to a whole lot of demand from DFW, so it's not of much help. Like with most places on earth, I'd imagine that a very high proportion of DFW's longhaul demand is concentrated in a relatively small list of markets - a classic Pareto situation. As such, KLM is fighting with substantially bigger and stronger competitors in pretty much all the markets that generate most of the demand - since the AA/BA JV, Lufthansa, and in many cases also now the Gulf carriers serve them - and thus aren't as able to use their "unique" destinations to offset this competition.

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 19):
I would certainly hope to see both KL and LH stay and succeed here at DFW.

I am highly skeptical. I do not realistically see how KLM can make it work at DFW going forward up against all the new competition. I suspect KLM struggled somewhat when they were just up against BA and Lufthansa, and even moreso once AA and BA were able to effectively merge across the Atlantic. Now, with that plus the Gulf carriers, I do not think KLM's DFW route - seasonal or not - is sustainable.

I honestly even think Lufthansa has probably seen their economic performance at DFW suffer materially in recent years, too, but at least they have the relatively large local DFW-Germany market to work with, not to mention the huge FRA hub - I think Lufthansa can hang on. But I think even Lufthansa would benefit at DFW from a smaller aircraft.

Viscount724 · Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:08 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 20):
The problem for KLM is that it's by far the weakest link now in the trans-Atlantic longhaul market out of DFW.

Even without connecting traffic at the U.S. end, isn't the DFW O&D market big enough to support one KL flight to AMS, considering KL's huge connecting network to almost everywhere in Europe and dozens of points beyond? The convenience of connecting at AMS is also a big factor. In my experience it's by far the best place to connect in Europe.

commavia · Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:22 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
Even without connecting traffic at the U.S. end, isn't the DFW O&D market big enough to support one KL flight to AMS, considering KL's huge connecting network to almost everywhere in Europe and dozens of points beyond?

In my personal opinion, no, not given all the competition. Prior to Emirates, Qatar and Etihad? Maybe. With 17 weekly flights to the Gulf on top of Lufthansa, and the AA/BA JV? No, I do not think the DFW O&D market is large enough. And of the players, KLM is in my view the weakest competitor, and thus the most likely to leave.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
The convenience of connecting at AMS is also a big factor. In my experience it's by far the best place to connect in Europe.

AMS may be convenient, but I doubt many routes are sustained on that basis alone. After all, I think most would agree that LHR, FRA and CDG are all less convenient and easy experiences than AMS, and yet all three are substantially larger hubs because they cater to far larger markets - both O&D and connecting. And of course that says nothing about DXB, DOH and AUH.

Viscount724 · Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 24):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
Even without connecting traffic at the U.S. end, isn't the DFW O&D market big enough to support one KL flight to AMS, considering KL's huge connecting network to almost everywhere in Europe and dozens of points beyond?

In my personal opinion, no, not given all the competition. Prior to Emirates, Qatar and Etihad? Maybe. With 17 weekly flights to the Gulf on top of Lufthansa, and the AA/BA JV? No, I do not think the DFW O&D market is large enough.

But Europe in isolation is a big market and the Gulf carriers are of no use there. AMS (like FRA and CDG) also has a significantly larger number of directly-served destinations than LHR. And even to regional points in the UK, AMS is a much better connecting hub than LHR which has little domestic service. AMS has service to about 25 airports in the UK (and at least 15 in Scandinavia).

commavia · Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:58 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
But Europe in isolation is a big market and the Gulf carriers are of no use there.

Sure, the Gulf carriers are no use to Europe, but the eight other daily flights to Europe by KLM's three competitors are of use, and more than sufficient, particularly considering that now with the entry of the Gulf carriers into DFW, those DFW-Europe flights may well have a few more seats on them that can be sold for DFW-Europe instead of DFW-Mid East/India.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
AMS (like FRA and CDG) also has a significantly larger number of directly-served destinations than LHR. And even to regional points in the UK, AMS is a much better connecting hub than LHR which has little domestic service. AMS has service to about 25 airports in the UK (and at least 15 in Scandinavia).

But again, it's a classic Pareto situation. AMS may offer 1-stop connectivity to more or difference places, but FRA, CDG and of course LHR still offer 1-stop connectivity to all the places that generate the vast majority of the demand. What's left over that cannot be offered over one of those hubs is not enough to justify a KLM flight, in my opinion.

Fastphilly · Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:59 pm

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 19):
I would refer you to the recent thread on this which discussed in length. In short, sources are several people at the airport who are "in the know" on these things and others who have their ear to the ground. It is not confirmed yet, but at this point, I'd put the odds at 90% that it is EK. We do know for sure that a carrier will bring the 380 to DFW in October, the airport has essentially confirmed as much.

It's the airline that owns the aircraft not the airport. I have ppl "In The Know" at SFO and rumors don't always materialize. With the addition of EY and QR I doubt EK will use a A380 on a route that will be overserved once those other Gulf carriers implement service.

I have heard EK and SQ starting A380 service to SFO towards the end of the year but I'll believe it when I see it.

[Edited 2014-03-16 16:01:08]

lightsaber · Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:05 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 24):
In my personal opinion, no, not given all the competition. Prior to Emirates, Qatar and Etihad? Maybe. With 17 weekly flights to the Gulf on top of Lufthansa, and the AA/BA JV? No, I do not think the DFW O&D market is large enough. And of the players, KLM is in my view the weakest competitor, and thus the most likely to leave.

Does KLM have an option to Down-gauge and keep the route? DFW isn't a trivial market for any airline to ignore. DFW-ATL/JFK-AMS-??? just won't be be as attractive as a route with one less stop...

Quoting ASA (Reply 16):
77L to 380 is almost doubling the capacity - sounds pretty incredible!

But cuts CASM by ~14%... It is quite possible to fill more capacity with lower costs...

Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
Nonetheless, if it only further enhances the options available for AAdvantage members to get to India, then indirectly it just further enhances the overall AA value proposition for those passengers for whom India is a key market. And that it most definitely does - I know multiple business travelers who nearly commute to DEL, on a near-monthly basis, and many of them cannot wait to use QR's flights through DOH. Between AA, QR, CX and EY, AA already offers its frequent flyers pretty extensive and convenient access to India.

IMHO AA has done a good job of holding onto customers while outsourcing the least profitable leg (short leg) to India. They have options for customers who travel extensively to Europe (BA and QR), Asia (CX) and pretty much everywhere *except* Australia (sorry, but QR/EY just aren't there yet for the connectivity) due to the QF/EK agreement. An excellent job of serving key markets.

Quoting ASA (Reply 16):
77L to 77W makes more sense ... like it's being debated for BOS

"Emirates Airline could start using its A380 super jumbo on its Boston route as it ramps up services to the US within a year."

Read more: http://www.thenational.ae/business/i...mbo-for-boston-route#ixzz2wAZcKLyX
Follow us: @TheNationalUAE on Twitter | thenational.ae on Facebook"

EK is seeing good growth from North America. I fully expect multiple 77L/77W routes to go A380 within 16 months.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
AMS has service to about 25 airports in the UK (and at least 15 in Scandinavia).

KLM has a nice network, but whenever I've tried to book a flight, their costs for J were out of line with BA/LH/AF and thus corporate policy prohibited flying on KL even though that was my preferred choice.

I think KL should keep DFW in their network, but they might have to right size...
IMHO, what is keeping them in the game is the lack of a 3rd (or 4th) runway at LHR...

Lightsaber

LAXdude1023 · Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:35 pm

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 27):
It's the airline that owns the aircraft not the airport. I have ppl "In The Know" at SFO and rumors don't always materialize. With the addition of EY and QR I doubt EK will use a A380 on a route that will be overserved once those other Gulf carriers implement service.

See the article below:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...-worth-international-airport.html/

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
Even without connecting traffic at the U.S. end, isn't the DFW O&D market big enough to support one KL flight to AMS, considering KL's huge connecting network to almost everywhere in Europe and dozens of points beyond?

When talking about DFW's local market, I tend to use IAH and ATL as comparatives. Based on that, as much as it pains me to admit it, IAH and ATL outperform DFW by a good clip in O&D to Europe outside LHR, CDG, FRA, and MAD where DFW keeps up decently. DFW-AMS is actually a very small local market. Its smaller than DFW-FCO and about the same size as DFW-BCN (although higher yielding than both).

Thats Europe, but now lets look at the Gulf feeder markets.

DFW-India/South Asia/Middle East is far larger and far faster growing to these locales than ATL. That leaves only DFW and IAH as comparable. IAH-India and DFW-India are almost identical in size, however they are very different in nature. IAH-India is heavily concentrated in DEL and especially BOM. IAH-BOM is 80 PDEW. DFW-India is scattered amongst the country. While BOM and DEL have traditionally been the largest markets, HYD will be the largest growing market from DFW going forward. It went from 10 PDEW to 50 PDEW is 4 years. Based on trends, DFW-India will be larger than IAH-India very shortly. Outside of BOM, its already larger by a good deal.

IAH-Middle East is far larger than DFW-Middle East outside TLV, AMM, CAI, and BEY. IAH-DXB is twice as large.

Based on the above, I conclude a couple of things about the topic at hand:

1) DFW is an India top heavy market with less for the European carriers to get ahold of. Thats what might make the ME3 have a great deal of interest while European carriers not so much.

2) KLM doesn't have a as much to hold on to at DFW as BA or even LH because of market sizes.

AA777223 · Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting travaz (Reply 17):

Give this fact, I've always wondered while all three appeared in DFW before IAH.

Although, perhaps, people like me are the reason. I've flown to DXB (twice), DOH, AUH and BAH already this year and flew UA and/or LH, despite the superior product of the other carriers, just for those *A miles.

chrisnh · Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:04 am

Quoting ASA (Reply 16):
77L to 77W makes more sense ... like it's being debated for BOS

Here in Boston, we're inhaling helium over EK's start at Logan with talk of a 773 upgrade 'soon' and a 380 once the gates & infrastructure are set to handle it. But the 772LR, which both Boston and Dallas have, is a 'route-starter' for EK. They only have ten frames, as opposed to a gazillion 773s. So one would presume this kind of trajectory, perhaps, for both DFW & BOS:

772LR-->773ER-->(2x) 773ER.

In Boston's case, that second 773 might well come not from Dubai nonstop but via Milan or some other city. I think in Boston's case (and maybe DFW) EK enjoys a 'first-mover' advantage that can be exploited as long as things stay that way. JetBlue is turning into quite the magnet for international carriers looking to tap into their network.

[Edited 2014-03-16 17:05:25]

777Jet · Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:26 am

Quoting aa777223 (Reply 30):
Give this fact, I've always wondered while all three appeared in DFW before IAH.

Although, perhaps, people like me are the reason. I've flown to DXB (twice), DOH, AUH and BAH already this year and flew UA and/or LH, despite the superior product of the other carriers, just for those *A miles.

I have wondered the same thing. IAH before DFW makes sense for the Middle East carriers for the oil links.

For me living in Sydney, and being an aviation nut, if it was slightly cheaper to fly EK via DXB then I would instead of flying across the pacific. I think the EK product is better than QF and I would not mind earning almost double the miles going via DXB. Also, the non-stop to DFW from SYD is nice, but the BNE stop on the return would make me prefer to fly to LAX first and then catch a ride on the A380...

Fastphilly · Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:24 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 29):

See the article below:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...html/

There is nothing in that article that confirms A380 service in the near future. All the article states is construction being made to accommodate the plane at it's terminal if/when the plane is flown on DFW routing. The airport officials are sounding off on what carriers now flying to DFW have the A380 in their fleet.

This statement at the beginning of the article "The A380 supposedly will arrive in October. But the airport doesn’t say which airline plans to bring the A380" should let you know that not even DFW officials know who/when/if the jumbo will fly there.

LAXdude1023 · Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:40 am

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 33):
should let you know that not even DFW officials know who/when/if the jumbo will fly there.

What the article implies is that the reporter doesn't know, not that the airport doesn't know.

FlyingSicilian · Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:48 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 32):
I have wondered the same thing. IAH before DFW makes sense for the Middle East carriers for the oil links.

Well IAH has TK which is kind of the fringe of that market. I am not sure how much traffic they pull but I am sure it is decent.

Fastphilly · Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:19 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 34):

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 34):
What the article implies is that the reporter doesn't know, not that the airport doesn't know.

DFW is no different than SFO or any other airport when it comes to "Rumors". I remember hearing years ago about near future EK A380 service to SFO and I'm still waiting so I doubt it's any different for DFW.

[Edited 2014-03-16 19:28:59]

Fastphilly · Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:27 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 34):
What the article implies is that the reporter doesn't know, not that the airport doesn't know.

Airlines won't hesitate to announce upgauges to aircraft on routes to the press. It's a sign of profitability and that's news airlines want out to the public and shareholders.

Before DFW officials hope for an EK A380 I think a 773 would be next in line. I find it hard to believe that an airline would go from a 772LR to an A380 especially when you have two more ME carriers moving in and one of them being a OW member. DFW's O&D isn't that large.

LAXdude1023 · Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:52 am

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 37):
Before DFW officials hope for an EK A380 I think a 773 would be next in line. I find it hard to believe that an airline would go from a 772LR to an A380 especially when you have two more ME carriers moving in and one of them being a OW member. DFW's O&D isn't that lar

I don't think a 380 by EK would be a good move either, but I do know they have enquired about it. Whether they were serious or not, I have no clue. I don't think its uncommon for airlines to do that.

I do think what DFW is getting will be sustainable though with all three in a 777.

factsonly · Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:34 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 24):
AMS may be convenient, but I doubt many routes are sustained on that basis alone. After all, I think most would agree that LHR, FRA and CDG are all less convenient and easy experiences than AMS, and yet all three are substantially larger hubs because they cater to far larger markets - both O&D and connecting.

I am sorry Commavia, your statement is not correct.

I no longer have direct access to MIDT data to prove it, but I remember well that on most international city pairs AMS is the 3rd largest O&D airport in Europe, after LHR and CDG....and before FRA.

FRA passenger traffic consists of a sizable domestic element, which AMS does not have. This puts the 'international' O&D market for AMS above FRA's international O&D demand.

If you consider the most recent statistics. In February 2014 the difference between the two airports was just 231.000 pax. overall, where FRA carried:

- FRA 3.670.230 total pax of which 460.000 domestic pax = 3.207.781 international pax.
- AMS 3.439.552 total pax of which 0 domestic pax = 3.439.552 international pax.

This puts AMS 232.000 international pax above FRA.

Also if you consider FRA and AMS airport passenger performance over the last few year's, you will note that AMS pretty well consistently outperforms FRA in growth:

2014: FRA +2.6% vs AMS +6%
2013: FRA +0.9% vs AMS +3%
2012: FRA +1.9% vs AMS +2.6%
2011: FRA +6.5% vs AMS +10%
2010: FRA +4.1% vs AMS +3.8%

data from: www.fraport.com and www.schiphol.nl

gdg9 · Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:13 pm

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 27):
It's the airline that owns the aircraft not the airport.

The airport would not spend well over a million dollars if they had not been given some pretty sound assurances of this service being initiated by the airline, i.e. aircraft owner. I highly doubt DFW would lay out the cash to upgrade the taxiways and gates/jetbridge for the two or three times the LH IAH 380 may divert.

Either way, we will see how it goes in a few months.

YouGeeElWhy · Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:34 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 39):
I don't think a 380 by EK would be a good move either, but I do know they have enquired about it. Whether they were serious or not, I have no clue. I don't think its uncommon for airlines to do that.

You should think of this as a move by EK to upgrade their J hard product on the route. Their 777 J product is not competitive with QR or EY 777 J hard product that will be deployed on DFW.

commavia · Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:37 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 39):
I am sorry Commavia, your statement is not correct.

I no longer have direct access to MIDT data to prove it, but I remember well that on most international city pairs AMS is the 3rd largest O&D airport in Europe, after LHR and CDG....and before FRA.

FRA passenger traffic consists of a sizable domestic element, which AMS does not have. This puts the 'international' O&D market for AMS above FRA's international O&D demand.

I said that LHR, CDG and FRA all sustained "substantially larger hubs" than AMS, which is true, based on a combination of "both O&D and connecting" traffic, which I believe is also true. I never differentiated between domestic and international, as it was not relevant to my point - however, since you brought it up, yes, the fact that all three of those other hubs can cater to substantial domestic markets obviously only further helps them in a way AMS cannot replicate.

And, in any event, all of this is besides the larger point I was making, which was that overall, AMS is - in my view - by far the weakest European hub served from DFW when considering the local market to/from DFW, interline and alliance connectivity, and competitive dynamics. LHR, CDG, FRA and MAD all have far more going for them to/from DFW than AMS does. KLM is also - in my view - by far the weakest foreign carrier presently serving DFW because of its suboptimal (seasonal) schedule, relative lack of alliance support, and the substantial competition in some of the most important beyond-AMS traffic flows KLM caters to.

For all of those reasons, I continue to believe KLM's days at DFW are numbered.

LAXdude1023 · Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:05 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 39):

What Commavia means is that, from DFW, FRA is a far larger market than AMS is and he is correct. DFW-FRA is almost 100 PDEW, DFW-AMS is closer to 25 PDEW.

Quoting commavia (Reply 42):
And, in any event, all of this is besides the larger point I was making, which was that overall, AMS is - in my view - by far the weakest European hub served from DFW when considering the local market to/from DFW, interline and alliance connectivity, and competitive dynamics.

Cosign.

a380787 · Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:24 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 43):
DFW-FRA is almost 100 PDEW

I wonder how AA and LH split the O&D pie on this one.

LAXdude1023 · Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:12 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 44):
I wonder how AA and LH split the O&D pie on this one.

There are connections on both ends (FRA for LH and DFW for AA). I would imagine LH get most of the German point of sell and AA gets most of the DFW point of sell.

Viscount724 · Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:27 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 40):
I said that LHR, CDG and FRA all sustained "substantially larger hubs" than AMS, which is true, based on a combination of "both O&D and connecting" traffic, which I believe is also true. I never differentiated between domestic and international, as it was not relevant to my point - however, since you brought it up, yes, the fact that all three of those other hubs can cater to substantial domestic markets obviously only further helps them in a way AMS cannot replicate.

I don't see how differentiating between domestic and international traffic at the major European hubs is relevant. KLM serves most major cities in Germany, just like LH. And from points like DUS to the U.S. it's shorter and more convenient to connect at AMS than FRA. Europe is one big market. Passengers don't care whether their connecting flight is domestic or international.

texdravid · Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:20 pm

The answer is yes, as the DFW-India demand is huge and it will only get bigger. When I came to Texas in the 1970's
with my parents, DFW was a "regional" airport and the surrounding areas of Flower Mound and Coppell
and Southlake were small cities or did not even exist.

Now, DFW is a cosmopolitan alpha city with downtown/uptown revitalized and the suburbs growing immensely. There
is a huge Indian, Korean, and African contingent that constantly goes home annually and they now will have several airlines to choose from and brand loyalty is a zero.
For these first generation immigrants, they rarely care about FF miles or such. They want affordability and availability.

Is it IAH or Houston? No, Houston has the bigger O&D. But, for those who are indignant how SFO doesn't have all three ME3
airlines, or how in another thread, how can a hill billy airport like DFW have QF and SFO lost their QF service, get real.
DFW is a big player now and will only get bigger.

thomasphoto60 · Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:29 pm

Quoting texdravid (Reply 45):
or how in another thread, how can a hill billy airport like DFW have QF and SFO lost their QF service

Like you, I too come from outside Texas (though I have not been here as long as you) and after spending sometime here Texas really gets in your blood. I suppose it is our fate as Texans to be marginalized by Hollywood and the media as backward bumpkins, but I and obviously you, know better.

9w748capt · Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:32 pm

Pretty impressive of DFW. Then again, service to DFW has been growing by leaps and bounds the last few years. Best part (for me at least) is living a 30 min flight away

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 46):
I suppose it is our fate as Texans to be marginalized by Hollywood and the media as backward bumpkins, but I and obviously you, know better.

Haha if you think texans have it bad, just imagine us Oklahomans! Just kidding, like you guys could give two hoots about us

Still have no idea how OU lost to texas last year!

LAXdude1023 · Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting texdravid (Reply 45):
Now, DFW is a cosmopolitan alpha city with downtown/uptown revitalized and the suburbs growing immensely. There
is a huge Indian, Korean, and African contingent that constantly goes home annually and they now will have several airlines to choose from and brand loyalty is a zero.

The diversity of the area is what surprises everyone. The Indian community in Dallas is downright huge. Its the 4th fastest growing and the 5th largest in the US. DFW is the number 4 immigration point in the US for immigrants from Africa as well. This is not a white bread homogenous place at all. The diversity surpasses places like SEA, PHL, and BOS.

Quoting texdravid (Reply 45):
DFW is a big player now and will only get bigger.

Thats for damn sure.

flyiguy · Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:57 am

IAD supports 4 with 3 of the 4 using the 77W and the other using an A346

FLY

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