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ojas
Posts: 1193
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:23 am

RE: Can DFW Support Three Middle East Carriers?

Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:11 am

Quoting texdravid (Reply 45):
Now, DFW is a cosmopolitan alpha city with downtown/uptown revitalized and the suburbs growing immensely. There
is a huge Indian, Korean, and African contingent that constantly goes home annually and they now will have several airlines to choose from and brand loyalty is a zero.

Very well put.

Apart from the huge Indian traffic, there also a very significant share of traffic to Africa which generated very good yields.
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Fastphilly
Topic Author
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:32 am

RE: Can DFW Support Three Middle East Carriers?

Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:39 am

Quoting texdravid (Reply 45):
Is it IAH or Houston? No, Houston has the bigger O&D. But, for those who are indignant how SFO doesn't have all three ME3
airlines, or how in another thread, how can a hill billy airport like DFW have QF and SFO lost their QF service, get real.
DFW is a big player now and will only get bigger.

Reality check Tex-

Qantas dumped SFO for DFW for a 3.1 million dollars cash up front incentive. Plus payed their marketing fees and huge discounted landing fees. Let's not make out like the Metroplex is some mecca for Oceanic O&D.

In SFO, QF was up against the airport's hub carrier UA on the same route at an airport that has one of the highest landing fees in the country. I can assure you if AA was running DFW-SYD flight you wouldn't see a QF tail in Dallas.
That QF route out of DFW has been surviving more on connections, not DFW's Oceana O&D base which is putrid compared to SFO.


Now let's discuss the ME3 situation. The geography of the west coast puts parts of the ME and the Indian Subcontinent directly on the other side of the planet. So whether you fly the Pacific route or via Europe it's the same distance so not only would ME carriers have to compete against EU airlines for India passengers, they also have to contend with Asian carriers.

That is not the case at DFW because the distance is shorter going east than west so the ME and EU carriers have an advantage.

DFW is a large market and it's growing, but it will never be a JFK, LAX, MIA, ORD, SFO and IAD when it comes to foreign tails and international O&D volume.
 
texdravid
Posts: 1831
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 3:21 pm

RE: Can DFW Support Three Middle East Carriers?

Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:20 pm

I feel sorry for those of you SFO fans who years later are still smarting from losing their precious QF SFO-SYD flight and feel
the need to denigrate DFW.

No one on these boards has said that DFW's O&D is JFK/LAX/SFO/IAD.
No one on these boards has said that O&D ALONE is supporting the QF flight. Or the upcoming HKG flight, or the current
OGG flights.
No one on these boards says anything derogatory about SFO at all.
I have heard numerous posts from numerous posters about DFW's volume is "putrid" or sucks, or it doesn't deserve these flights.

QF is here not for DFW tourism/natural beauty/the arts/amusement parks/Cowboys stadium or other simply because they
got money from DFW officials. It is here because it gets lots of connectivity with the world's second largest hub operation.
Period. Especially on the QF 7 flight, where the passenger gets out of customs in DFW and then can transfer to just about
anywhere in the US. QF and AA are one world partners so that helps with ticketing and FF miles/awards.

The only thing wrong with this flight is the aircraft. Because of QF's mismanagement of their fleet, they lack a 777LR that could
do the nonstop both ways, and because of their other economic mismanagement, they cannot afford the IGW 380 now
either.

This route is here to stay, and eventually the right plane will be selected.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
BCEaglesCO757
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:16 pm

RE: Can DFW Support Three Middle East Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:06 am

Quoting texdravid (Reply 45):



See a ALOT of people coming and going from/to DFW and Dal off the UA IAH-LOS-IAH flight.

DFW, BWI and DCA. Lots of connections for IAH-LOS.
 
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gdg9
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:42 am

RE: Can DFW Support Three Middle East Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:54 pm

Fastphilly - Move on. You lost a route. Get over it.

As for DFW offering financial supplements, landing fee breaks etc - obviously it worked and they attracted new service. I believe that is called business. If you are losing sleep over this, I suggest you take it up with the SFO Airport board and ask what they did to keep the route?

In the end, QF management looked at the pros and cons of ops at each airport and decided DFW was the better option right now for their passengers and network. I am sure a lot of folks prefer transferring at DFW rather than LAX.
@dfwtower
 
AAIL86
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 am

RE: Can DFW Support Three Middle East Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:07 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Assuming CX and AA have an interline ticketing agreement which they almost certainly do, you don't have to buy separate tickets. They can easily issue a single ticket covering both CX and AA flights, and all other significant carriers other than the LCCs that don't interline.

you don't need a separate ticket to connect DFW-HKG- India with AA/Cathay Pacific. It even prices as a through fare.

NO NAMES
1 AA 137V 29JUN S DFWHKG SS1 1245P 605P 30JUN M /DCAA /E
2 CX 685V 30JUN M HKGBOM SS1 805P 1155P /DCCX /E
3 CX 684S 07JUL M BOMHKG SS1 110A 945A /DCCX /E
4 AA 138S 07JUL M HKGDFW SS1 130P 430P /DCAA /E

MINIMUM CONNECT TIME EDIT VALID FOR ALL CONNECTIONS

29JUN DEPARTURE DATE-----LAST DAY TO PURCHASE 20MAR/2359
BASE FARE TAXES TOTAL
1- USD2216.00 710.07XT USD2926.07ADT
XT 624.40YR 35.00US 5.50YC 7.00XY
5.00XA 2.50AY 3.65WO 11.42IN
11.10YM 4.50XF
2216.00 710.07 2926.07TTL
ADT-01 VPWPRT SPXPRT
" Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness ... Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. ” - Mark Twain, 1869
 
Fastphilly
Topic Author
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:32 am

RE: Can DFW Support Three Middle East Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:33 pm

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 54):
Fastphilly - Move on. You lost a route. Get over it.

As for DFW offering financial supplements, landing fee breaks etc - obviously it worked and they attracted new service. I believe that is called business. If you are losing sleep over this, I suggest you take it up with the SFO Airport board and ask what they did to keep the route?

In the end, QF management looked at the pros and cons of ops at each airport and decided DFW was the better option right now for their passengers and network. I am sure a lot of folks prefer transferring at DFW rather than LAX.

Sure it worked and if I was an airline that was offered those incentives I'd take it too. DFW needs to roll out the red carpet and offer incentives because the region is not a draw for international visitors.
As for the route being a better move by QF. Many ppl including myself have serious doubts about that. QF wasn't blocking off 100 seats on westbound flights from SFO-SYD and with recent press releases on QF's financial situation it's a sure bet the DFW route is a poor earner just like the majority of their other international routes. I give the route another year before QF pulls the plug on DFW.

http://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/qan...se-for--112-million-221118676.html

[Edited 2014-03-19 10:38:36]
 
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gdg9
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:42 am

RE: Can DFW Support Three Middle East Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:10 pm

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 56):
Sure it worked and if I was an airline that was offered those incentives I'd take it too. DFW needs to roll out the red carpet and offer incentives because the region is not a draw for international visitors.

OK. Not quite sure what your beef is against DFW. Yes I will grant that more people visit SFO for tourism than do Dallas. And? Despite this 'handicap" DFW has added several foreign carriers in the last few years, and those carriers have stuck around after the initial incentive period has ended.

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 56):
As for the route being a better move by QF. Many ppl including myself have serious doubts about that. QF wasn't blocking off 100 seats on westbound flights from SFO-SYD and with recent press releases on QF's financial situation it's a sure bet the DFW route is a poor earner just like the majority of their other international routes. I give the route another year before QF pulls the plug on DFW.

Was SFO a top earner in the QF network? Because surely if it was, flights would still be operating there I would imagine. Your own prior post lamented the competition on SFO-Austrlia with UA. QF perhaps figured it was a better bet to go direct to their oneworld partner's fortress hub than keep plying SFO for whatever profits, if any, there were making.

Can I sit here today and say DFW is a steller yielding route? No, I don't know the route specifics.. As you say, many of QF's int'l routes are ailing. As for the hundreds of seats being blocked off, that is an aircraft issue, as others have mentioned, and not indicatitive of route performance. Perhaps if QF had ordered 77W or taken earlier 787s that issue would be moot. The 744/ER is at the edge of its range on the route. Of course, that is another topic and one that has been debated extensively on these forums.

As for another year on QF pulling the plug, we will see. I highly doubt it. Truth be told they had been eyeing DFW for at least a decade, with preliminary plans to serve the field before Sept. 11. Beyond that, routes take time to build. I can tell you that a lot of people who are connecting on past the western US prefer the ease of transferring at DFW as opposed to the morass at LAX. Again, QF is flying from their hub to the main hub of their one world partner, providing so much more connection opportunities than existed at LAX.
@dfwtower
 
blink182
Posts: 5370
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: Can DFW Support Three Middle East Carriers?

Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:48 am

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 51):
Qantas dumped SFO for DFW for a 3.1 million dollars cash up front incentive. Plus payed their marketing fees and huge discounted landing fees. Let's not make out like the Metroplex is some mecca for Oceanic O&D.

Incentives are standard practice across the industry: airlines need assurance before they commit to flying a $250mn piece of equipment halfway around the world, plus fuel, crews etc. Cities do the same thing with tax breaks, business offer incentives to new clients. DFW's incentives for QF expired awhile ago, and yet QF hasn't packed up.

QF's inclination to scale back their longhaul network, even reducing Singapore, indicates that no route is sacred to them, not even Dallas. If Dallas' economics weren't working out in some way, the route would have been cut. My guess is that QF 7/8 may lose money as standalone flights, but those pax may make a difference across QF's trans-tasman and domestic networks, giving extra lift to PER, AKL, MEL etc. Perhaps AA provides those pax over DFW that QF couldn't access via SFO. Users here who are far more educated than me can and have postulated answers to the QF question, which now approaches NW/DL DC-9 retirement levels.

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 59):
I am not bashing on DFW I just like many others question QF's logic for leaving a proven city that can work with a 744ER to a location that cannot utilize the 744ER in a way to make the route profitable.

While doing it on a thread about whether the ME3 can make DFW work when they, aside from EK, have skipped over your beloved SFO for now. My own answer to the ME3 thread topic: San Fransisco has much more competition to South Asia via Europe and even Asia than Dallas does at the moment. Dallas is probably lower hanging fruit for the ME3. Last I checked, QF is not a Middle Eastern carrier, even with their EK joint-venture.

Fastphilly, you pose great questions, but your legitimacy is undermined by posing these questions in a framework of San Fransisco's cosmopolitan superiority to Dallas, rather than on Dallas' own strengths and weaknesses.
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...

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