tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:57 am

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 150):
Per CNN, apparently INdian military radar is not activated unless there is a threat. So, theoretically they could have gone unnoticed.

Strange isn't radar meant to tell you if there is an incoming unknown threat or I guess they only turn it on if they think there might be something coming from a more general standpoint.
 
EricR
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:57 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 147):

It puts them right through Indian airspace which is hard to imagine that would go unnoticed.

How do you know it went unnoticed? Very possible it was noticed. Just because the media has not been made aware of this fact does not mean it went unnoticed.
 
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Dalavia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:58 am

I have no idea how specifically relevant this will become (the article is four and a half years old), but for the sake of completeness I am sharing this link in view of the Iranian speculation:

Iran Gains U.S. Military Technology Through Malaysia Middlemen

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aK4daf8MD.Bw
 
capri
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:59 am

the slow climbing of the aircraft that was reported before, will tell you that it had more fuel that first was thought
 
flyenthu
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:00 am

Are the investigators not working on voice recognition of the last words from the cockpit, if it came from pilots or someone else? It appears that the last message from cockpit came in between the shutting down of ACARS and transponders.

Sorry if this is a repeat.
 
EricR
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:00 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 152):

Strange isn't radar meant to tell you if there is an incoming unknown threat or I guess they only turn it on if they think there might be something coming from a more general standpoint.

Military vs. commercial radar. Probably no immediate need to have military radar on, but commercial radar on.
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:01 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 153):
How do you know it went unnoticed? Very possible it was noticed. Just because the media has not been made aware of this fact does not mean it went unnoticed.

I don't. I freely admit that. Just thought they would have said something.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 152):
Strange isn't radar meant to tell you if there is an incoming unknown threat or I guess they only turn it on if they think there might be something coming from a more general standpoint.

You would think so.

The Wikipedia page says the airport at the cross of the two points is rarely used and state of disrepair: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkalyk_Airport

But a search of Facebook clearly indicates people with the ability to use social media live there so one would think if it were there, someone would have reported it by now: https://www.facebook.com/search/110079109013995/residents/present
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
737tdi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:02 am

To respond to the idea of defeating the cockpit door. It would be very hard if a person were trying from the outside. I can not speak to the 777 but I can speak to Boeing and the 737. A buddy and myself installed the very first "bullet proof/anti-tamper door on a 737. I know every little thing about these cockpit doors. I am assuming the 777 has the same door, which I am 99.9% sure is the same door. I will not speak of the specifics but these doors are as secure as an aircraft door can be. The only way to defeat the door is from the cockpit side. Except, a person who knows these doors like I do could. There aren't many mechs. who know these intricacies but it can be found in the wiring diagrams. If you had an electrical savvy guy he could but he would also have to know where the wiring looms are. That is not impossible to find if you are a mech.. Only if you know where the wiring is. By the way the doors have dead bolts that can not be defeated, key or no key. If the Captain/FO sets the lock it can not be defeated. No codes/passwords, it is a mechanical lock and you will not get in to the cockpit. I have been locked out a couple of times and have used the emergency pull on the F.O.'s side to access the cockpit.



Did a unknown person access the cockpit. I don't think so. What I mean by that? The crew knew them, it was the crew, or they unlocked the door. It takes a actual physical/mental decision to unlock that door. If a correct code is entered the crew can allow/disallow entry. A safecracker could not enter these doors unless he knew the code, but the code can be rejected up to ? sec.s after input. It is a very long time if you are trying to hijack an airplane.
 
davidzill
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:03 am

Where would they park in Diego Garcia? Next to the B-52, B-2, or the B-1? Highly unlikely it even got close to Diego Garcia, same goes for Guam.
 
edmountain
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:03 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 147):
It puts them right through Indian airspace which is hard to imagine that would go unnoticed.
Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 149):
FWF said that its possible to get through Indian airspace...

Not going unnoticed and getting through are not mutually exclusive: both can happen. Indeed, that's exactly what happened as MH370 passed westward over the Malay Peninsula. (It's also what happened to KE007 over Kamchatka IIRC.)

However, had MH370 been noticed by India and still got through I'm sure we'd have heard of it by now.
 
StaticShock
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:04 am

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 113):

I signed up here just to say thank you for this post and for adding some much-needed perspective to this thread. I am not trying to make a big thing of this but I personally know (and I believe, knew) one of the passengers and the level of fetishism around conspiracy theories and terrorism is not acceptable. There is such a thing as reasoned debate and speculation and quite another to throw around unfounded crap on the basis of "oh it popped into my head".

I also note a lot of people talking about China and pointing fingers when I (maybe incorrectly) assume that those people don't have any experience of China or Chinese culture. I am in Beijing right now and the level of shock and anger is as high as it is seemingly in the rest of the world.

Lastly, with the greatest of respect, one or two nationalities on here especially seem to be particularly titillated over the idea of some kind of terror masterplan which is extremely saddening to see. The way the world has gone these days to the point we try and turn sadness over such a tragic event into anger and paranoia and xenophobia is just horrible to see.

Thanks
 
capri
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:06 am

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 154):
I have no idea how specifically relevant this will become (the article is four and a half years old), but for the sake of completeness I am sharing this link in view of the Iranian speculation:

Iran Gains U.S. Military Technology Through Malaysia Middlemen

very interesting indeed, this will heat up in future dependant on the outcome of this tragidy
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:07 am

Quoting edmountain (Reply 161):
However, had MH370 been noticed by India and still got through I'm sure we'd have heard of it by now.

That's more along the lines of what I was trying to say.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
TXspotter
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:19 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 164):

Why would WE know this by now?

A lot of different departments of the US, countries, and companies MIGHT know SOME things. So the idea that they would tell us is false.

It's a criminal investigation...We aren't going to know a lot about this.

We will be told little and these threads will increase in number.
 
edmountain
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:22 am

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 156):
Are the investigators not working on voice recognition of the last words from the cockpit, if it came from pilots or someone else? It appears that the last message from cockpit came in between the shutting down of ACARS and transponders.

Sorry if this is a repeat.

One of the talking heads on CNN said the voice behind "All right, good night" was identified as being one of the flight crew but I've seen no corroboration of this anywhere else so they were likely overstating themselves.
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:22 am

For what it is worth, Flying with Fish just told me via Tweet that he believes the SATCOM arcs are inaccurate and that "others agree." That the 3,675 mileage is more of an accurate idea of flight path than the SATCOM arc.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
FltAdmiralRitt
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:24 am

It would take sophisticated training and equipment for an agent not in the flight deck to accomplish a highjacking.

The following steps would have to be accomplished.

1) disable comms.
2) incapacitate the passengers.
3) Enter the cockpit.
4) overpower two pilots.
5) switch off the transponder.
6) fly the plane to avoid rardar.

But the sequence does not have to be so rigid. Only the first one.

About the only way I see to do this is from the
forward of the cargo bay by an agent stowing away.
and gaining access to the Electronics Bay.
Riggin comms to turn off right at turnover to Saigon controll.
Blow a hole into pilot compartment send in Arsenic gas.

One you are in controll of the cockpit, all the other steps fall into place.
But an operation such as this needs a MOTIVE.
 
cabochris
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:25 am

Ever flown over India in the middle of the night.... Not a sound on the comm. Wow, it looks like even the Indians were asleep. There are large areas in the Kolkata FIR, particularly over Bay of Bengal, that have no radar coverage at present.

No way India can admit this. Start the detraction.

Where are you 28420
 
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Dalavia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:25 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 167):
For what it is worth, Flying with Fish just told me via Tweet that he believes the SATCOM arcs are inaccurate and that "others agree." That the 3,675 mileage is more of an accurate idea of flight path than the SATCOM arc.

I have to say that his map does look more like a more realistic, detailed and analytical representation.

http://pic.twitter.com/oVhSU9cOAs

{Edit: I don't know why the automatic hyperlinking hasn't worked, but you can copy and paste the link if you haven't seen it previously]

[Edited 2014-03-15 22:27:03]

[Edited 2014-03-15 22:28:14]

[Edit: Fixed the link - I hope]


[Edited 2014-03-15 22:29:24]
 
k83713
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:29 am

Quoting StaticShock (Reply 162):
Lastly, with the greatest of respect, one or two nationalities on here especially seem to be particularly titillated over the idea of some kind of terror masterplan which is extremely saddening to see. The way the world has gone these days to the point we try and turn sadness over such a tragic event into anger and paranoia and xenophobia is just horrible to see.

I think it's not about xenophobia or lack of pain which I'm sure every normal person feels for those on board. See, this is quite specialized place in internet and people are just trying to understand why this happened from perspective of aviation. Purpose is clear - to find out ways to stop that from happenning again. But it seems in this story of MH370 flight the borderline between aviation and other aspects, like conspiracy, terrorism, security is already crossed and people have no other choice but to discuss why things are like this. Nobody tries to frame other nationalities, it's just versions discussion based on what people know from experience.
 
edmountain
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:30 am

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 170):
I have to say that his map does look more like a realistic, detailed and analytical representation.

https://twitter.com/flyingwithfish/status/444736126482272256/photo/1

How can you say it's more realistic if you don't know where the plane actually is? If the plane is at the bottom of the ocean then it's far from realistic.
 
chrcaremanav
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:31 am

Hi! Here is an article by Ben Sandilands at Plane Talking. Take care. Have a nice night or day.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...ntinue-to-baffle-airline-insiders/

P.S. I do not have any opinion about that tragedy and mystery, I will wait for the conclusion, if it ever comes, but I lean more on Deliberate Highjacking and sabotage, but We will know soon or never. Au Revoir from Canada.
 
chrisrad
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:31 am

interesting tweet from flying with fish


async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8">>
Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:32 am

The kidnapping of the Freescale employee's or their cargo is a far fetched given how paranoid the US is in letting US companies do sensitive work or even use materials sourced from China in sensitive (national security) related projects. Even a 2 dollar magnet gets flak and requires an exemption how likely do you think the US government and freescale itself would even float the idea of doing super-secret design work in china.

Freescale has many divisions and the one in China seems to be focused on what happens in china, chip fab research, RF design for cellphones, MCUs for cars and vehicles, consumer electronics, ...

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?code=CHINA
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?code=MALAYSIA

The malaysia office is also into consumer electronics, cellphones, and related subjects.

See this job posting for freescale, (Note the requirements on the bottom and US location)
http://www.linkedin.com/jobs2/view/9718356

US citizenship and fluency in English
A valid US passport
Frequent travel to customer sites within the US and internationally (25% of the time)
Willingness to sign a DoD ITAR NDA
An active or re-activatible DoD security clearance, or no known barriers to obtaining a first time security clearance

Most of the US restrictions on technology transfer and location sensitivities are already in place just to stop such an insane plot from occurring. Which is why it makes little sense here. None of the freescale passengers likely qualify for security clearance just based on their passport alone.

If someone was going to do this they would take a flight carrying a team of US based Freescale employee's.
 
boacvc10
Posts: 500
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:32 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 167):
believes the SATCOM arcs are inaccurate

Those satcom arcs are elevation angles from ground, towards the satellite position over the western indian ocean, equatorial point, and yes, they are completely theoretical. Assume a 5-10 mile swath of land on both sides of that arc, for easy reference. But, the mode of projection of a map will distort this swath, so at the northern ridges you should assume greater angular variation for each degree of latitude (the curvature of the earth is much larger at greater latitudes).

Therefore there needs to be an understanding that the "zone of interest" will be 5-10 miles wide (both sides) towards the equator, and probably 10-15 miles wide (both sides) towards the poles.

So, in other words, just having that single data point on that thick curved line gives you only a general shaped area, with countless thousands of square miles, in which the aircraft passed through one or two times at the most. Not good. ...
Up, up and Away!
 
flood
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:32 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 73):
Well, according to him, some will still be alive.

Also according to FwF, they're not.

13h ago: "What happened to the passengers? A5: In my opinion they were eliminated."
2h ago: "I believe the aircraft was flown, landed, off loaded of what they wanted, plane & collateral liabilities are eliminated"
43m ago: "It is likely at least 20 pax needed to be alive. night flight, mostly over water, they have no idea until the end"

I don't doubt he has sources at DHS, but his tweets read like wild mix of sources and throwing darts.

Quoting capri (Reply 116):
so why still China quiet about those 20 engineers????

Huh?

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 156):
Are the investigators not working on voice recognition of the last words from the cockpit, if it came from pilots or someone else?

I think we can reasonably assume they've already determined whether it was said by the Captain, the FO, or some unidentified third unknown source. Given their belief ACARS had already been shut off prior to reaching the coast and considering the captain's home is now being searched (may have missed it, but I don't recall reports of the FO's home being searched) I'll venture to guess it was the Captain who signed off.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 167):
For what it is worth, Flying with Fish just told me via Tweet that he believes the SATCOM arcs are inaccurate and that "others agree."

We've had a number of people on here say the same thing.

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 170):
I have to say that his map does look more like a realistic, detailed and analytical representation.

It looks more like someone took an estimated mileage figure and sought out to find the most sensational destination.
 
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Dalavia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:35 am

Quoting edmountain (Reply 172):
How can you say it's more realistic if you don't know where the plane actually is? If the plane is at the bottom of the ocean then it's far from realistic.

I say this because it looks at flight specific routes, waypoints, actual distances etc, rather than just drawing two big arcs on a map.

Then I add the real world questions of how this could be done, and look at the shadowing scenario with the KLM flight that followed this same routing (as far as the Iranian border) on the same night at about the same time, and it starts to look more "realistic" (or plausible if you prefer) than the map with the two big arcs.
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:36 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 167):
For what it is worth, Flying with Fish just told me via Tweet that he believes the SATCOM arcs are inaccurate and that "others agree." That the 3,675 mileage is more of an accurate idea of flight path than the SATCOM arc.

Inaccurate, yes but they are somewhere within the two points (with a fat buffer for errors) as from what I gather about how they figured out the rough location of the last ping there is no way it is totally off track from the corridor that connects the two extremes together.

What he was actually saying is he thinks they are invalid which I don't think is true.

Edit: it also demonstrates he doesn't understand that the two points are not where the plane might be but are the extremes of where the estimate thinks they will be. Due to the way the inmarsat system works if can't be narrowed down much further than what we have. (And probably only really worked on the last ping or so)

[Edited 2014-03-15 22:37:43]
 
ikramerica
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:37 am

Quoting StaticShock (Reply 162):

You signed up just to conflate an authoritarian government with a race of people so as to label anyone who might question the motives or actions of a government xenophobic? Have you, in your life, ever questioned the actions or motives of any government of any other nation? That obviously makes you a xenophobe too.

More likely you are simply an agent of the Chinese government yourself, "compelled" to join to in order to attempt to influence discussion.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:40 am

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 178):
Then I add the real world questions of how this could be done, and look at the shadowing scenario with the KLM flight that followed this same routing (as far as the Iranian border) on the same night at about the same time, and it starts to look more "realistic" (or plausible if you prefer) than the map with the two big arcs.

No the big arcs represent the signal strength of the satellite and the distance to the geostationary IOR sat. They do not represent the flight path. The plane could be anywhere along that arc and it did not fly along the arc.

The shadowing scenario is far more far fetched than saying it was somewhere over this huge area due to the timing and network estimates from inmarsat.
 
edmountain
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:41 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 167):
For what it is worth, Flying with Fish just told me via Tweet that he believes the SATCOM arcs are inaccurate and that "others agree." That the 3,675 mileage is more of an accurate idea of flight path than the SATCOM arc.

I'm still skeptical--although he's certainly better informed than me.

I read through his Twitter feed and it seems he was given the number 3675 miles (or is it nautical miles?) and then he spent a few hours at skyvector.com finding a suitable track. In his words "On Thurs DHS told me the believed the plane flew 3675 miles, so I spent 12hrs looking at that within +/- 100 miles" and "Folks, this is how I arrived at my *GUESSTIMATE* based on info of where #MH370 ended, with the help of some experts." (Emphasis his.)

So unless he has other sources that indicated Esfahan it seems he arrived there simply through trial and error.
 
737tdi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:43 am

Quoting k83713 (Reply 171):
I think it's not about xenophobia or lack of pain which I'm sure every normal person feels for those on board. See, this is quite specialized place in internet and people are just trying to understand why this happened from perspective of aviation. Purpose is clear - to find out ways to stop that from happenning again. But it seems in this story of MH370 flight the borderline between aviation and other aspects, like

I believe that everyone here is responding out of disbelief. I believe they are responding with sorrow as well. The prayers and condolences are over. Let's figure out what the heck happened?


That is the way it is with me. I said prayers, waited, and then said what the heck? A very large aircraft is missing. They just don't disappear. Now it's time to find what happened. I haven't stopped praying for the living or the dead. Let's find it and discover what went wrong. I work in this industry and I want to know. What, When, Where and How. I think this one is horrible.. We will see.
 
valleyflyer
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:43 am

There was discussion here that ACARS can we "turned off" on the CDU. There is an ACARS message type 5P, Temporary suspension of ACARS with a response Q6, voice-to-ACARS change over. I could imagine that is generated when these changes are made and that the investigators used that to determine that ACARS was deliberately turned off?

I'm not an expert on ACARS, this is just based on some RTFM of the protocol and I could be totally wrong. It would be nice if an expert could chime in, because it bugs me that everyone in the media keeps talking about ACARS having been turned off but there is no explanation how that has been determined.
 
B2707SST
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:45 am

Quoting StaticShock (Reply 162):
I signed up here just to say thank you for this post and for adding some much-needed perspective to this thread. I am not trying to make a big thing of this but I personally know (and I believe, knew) one of the passengers and the level of fetishism around conspiracy theories and terrorism is not acceptable. There is such a thing as reasoned debate and speculation and quite another to throw around unfounded crap on the basis of "oh it popped into my head".

I can only say you are very welcome. My deepest condolences to you and everyone else affected by this awful incident. Let's hope that this mystery will be solved soon, although I also suspect that the outcome will not be what we hope for.

Let's all keep Occam's Razor firmly in mind. While I don't have a problem with people speculating on this site - I've done a little myself on this topic and plenty over the years - I think we have a responsibility to the missing to keep our theories tied to the facts. Unfortunately, it's easy to get carried away with ever more elaborate theories in the absence of reliable information. Cryptic twitter postings and anonymous blog comments, while potentially worth discussing, should not be treated as gospel truth and repeated uncritically.

I also want to take the opportunity to thank, among many others, rcair1, Mandala499, SoCalGeo, and Starlionblue for their contributions to this thread. Posts are flooding in so fast that valuable information is almost immediately buried and we end up going around and around in circles. They've done incredible work trying to keep things at least somewhat organized.

-B2707SST

[Edited 2014-03-15 22:54:23]
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
edmountain
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:48 am

Quoting boacvc10 (Reply 176):
So, in other words, just having that single data point on that thick curved line gives you only a general shaped area, with countless thousands of square miles, in which the aircraft passed through one or two times at the most. Not good. ...

If the arcs are to be believed then you can get a little more confidence than that. The arcs apparently represent the range of possible positions of the aircraft at 0811h Kuala Lumpur time which is close to when it would have run out of fuel (in all likelihood). Hence the final resting place could presumably be near to the arcs.
 
k83713
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:38 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:49 am

It will make sense to have FDR information stored in "cloud" from now and on. And no opportunity to turn it off from the cockpit. Seems like old days of possibility to isolate the aircraft and critical data from the world outside are gone...
 
edmountain
Posts: 231
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:53 am

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 178):
Then I add the real world questions of how this could be done, and look at the shadowing scenario with the KLM flight that followed this same routing (as far as the Iranian border) on the same night at about the same time, and it starts to look more "realistic" (or plausible if you prefer) than the map with the two big arcs.

But the two bigs arcs are not flight paths so you're comparing apples to polar bears.
 
k83713
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:38 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:55 am

As I understand these arcs is just a set of points from where the signal could come once (only once), when Inmarsat detected it. Then the plane could continue to fly further, we don't have information on that.

[Edited 2014-03-15 22:56:42]
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 406
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:55 am

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 150):
Per CNN, apparently INdian military radar is not activated unless there is a threat. So, theoretically they could have gone unnoticed.

And how would they know there's a threat if they can't detect an unidentified aircraft approaching their airspace??? It looks like the people/government involved with the disappearance of MH370 (if that's the case) really did their homework. I just can't believe a member of the flight crew of MH370 would decide to fly for 6-7 hours to commit suicide. We really need to find this plane.

[Edited 2014-03-15 22:59:18]
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k83713
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:38 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:58 am

Quoting dampfnudel (Reply 190):
We really need to find this plane.

I wonder will it be found before it melted...And how you deal if it is done.
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 406
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:02 am

Quoting k83713 (Reply 191):
I wonder will it be found before it melted...And how you deal if it is done.

What are you talking about?
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
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Dalavia
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:08 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:02 am

Quoting edmountain (Reply 186):
The arcs apparently represent the range of possible positions of the aircraft at 0811h Kuala Lumpur time which is close to when it would have run out of fuel (in all likelihood). Hence the final resting place could presumably be near to the arcs.
Quoting edmountain (Reply 188):
But the two bigs arcs are not flight paths so you're comparing apples to polar bears.
Quoting k83713 (Reply 189):
As I understand these arcs is just a set of points from where the signal could come once (only once), when Inmarsat detected it. Then the plane could continue to fly further, we don't have information on that.

Okay, thank you for these clarifications.

I confess I was working under a misunderstanding, or an incomplete understanding.

Your comments have been helpful for my thinking.
 
k83713
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:38 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:06 am

Quoting dampfnudel (Reply 192):

Referring to tweets from Flying Fish and idea of plane being eliminated on the ground

Quoting TheWipp (Reply 134):
That flying fish guy is not talking about terrorism in a 'classical' way. He's talking about landing the plane, taking "cargo" (probably the Freescale workers) off, and eliminating everything else.


[Edited 2014-03-15 23:07:33]
 
jetblueguy22
Topic Author
Posts: 3186
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:07 am

Quoting k83713 (Reply 187):
It will make sense to have FDR information stored in "cloud" from now and on. And no opportunity to turn it off from the cockpit. Seems like old days of possibility to isolate the aircraft and critical data from the world outside are gone...

Not a chance this will happen. Aircraft will be required to have some form of tracking system that can't be turned off before FDR information is kept in the cloud. Transmitting that kind of data is enormously expensive. Just look at the ACARS transmission. I read in a previous thread the cost per transmission was about 5 USD. That's why the transmissions only happened every 30 mins. Now imagine a constant uplink of voice recordings and aircraft data. Talk about cost prohibitive.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:10 am

Quoting edmountain (Reply 186):
If the arcs are to be believed then you can get a little more confidence than that. The arcs apparently represent the range of possible positions of the aircraft at 0811h Kuala Lumpur time which is close to when it would have run out of fuel (in all likelihood). Hence the final resting place could presumably be near to the arcs.

These arcs are not purported flight paths.

My understanding is simply that these arcs contain the location where the aircraft was at 0811 Kuala Lumpur time.

Interestingly, the southern arc doesn't cover any landfall apart from the vicinity of Jakarta in Indonesia, and fits poorly with any explanation as a suicide attempt would have been completed 6 hours earlier and there is nowhere else to land. The only land traversed on the southern arc is western Java, which has a population of 35 million, would have been in daylight at that time, and is just a few hundred miles from Kuala Lumpur, which would mean that the plane didn't just fly over Malaysia, but spent the next 7 hours circling around Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia without anybody noticing.

The northern arc is fascinating. Fascinating because the largest part of it falls within western China, which is precisely where the separatist terrorist group is located. And because there is one time zone in China, 0811 in the morning was almost 30 minutes before sunrise in Xinjiang. There is a tiny extension of the northern arc into former Soviet states in Central Asia, but basically:

a) The northern arc is Western and Southwest China,
b) The southern arc is basically the ocean and western Java.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 408
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:14 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 136):
The only place where the SATCOM and the new FWF mileage intersect is West of Southern Australia or Middle of Kazakhstanhttp://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=3000nm%...C=red&DU=mi&SU=kts&RS=best&RC=navy

I think that you are potentially correct, however, the plane could have flown any route to get to that arc, with the info that we think is factual (6+hours of flying time, not an infinite amount of fuel, etc...), they conceivably could have circled in the middle of the Bay of Bengal for a few hours in the area not covered by radar and then flown over Thailand to get to the most southerly part of the arc. They could potentially be anywhere along it.



SoCalGeo
 
k83713
Posts: 160
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:17 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 195):
Now imagine a constant uplink of voice recordings and aircraft data. Talk about cost prohibitive

You're right, economy is always decisive. With cold head it seems like cost will be restricting factor here. From other point of view, like having discount for bulk data transmission, operator will not charge so much more if volume of data/ rate of messaging increases to some extent. It's also economy in the end of the day, depends only if they have the available pipe. From safety point of view it makes a lot of sense and maybe new specialized satellites need to be launched just for that purpose. Anyway, first step could be imposing by safety regulations that ACARS system (and squawk maybe) being independently operated while plane is airborne.
 
davidzill
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:26 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:18 am

Rumor has it that police returned to the Captains house and left with several items subsequent to verifying the voice checking out with Malaysian ATC. Getting interesting and taking on a more concrete direction everyday. I'm convinced the aircraft IS NOT underwater.
 
slinky09
Posts: 652
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:03 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:22 am

Quoting k83713 (Reply 189):
As I understand these arcs is just a set of points from where the signal could come once (only once), when Inmarsat detected it. Then the plane could continue to fly further, we don't have information on that.

It was made very clear in the last press conference that the last data ping was unlikely to be the last position, and that investogatory work was ongoing to determine something more precise.

Quoting flood (Reply 177):
I don't doubt he has sources at DHS, but his tweets read like wild mix of sources and throwing darts.

He has also tweeted that agencies are not working together, so even if he does have sources at the DHS who's to say that source has full disclosure of the facts. While I have no interest in promoting him, if you go back over several days of tweets you'll see a consistency of thought and some pointers that have subsequently been shared and discussed more widely.

Quoting dampfnudel (Reply 190):
And how would they know there's a threat if they can't detect an unidentified aircraft approaching their airspace???

Ever spent time in India? This does not surprise me at all.

So here we are, a week later, there's no evidence that the plane has crashed anywhere, and lots of pointers that it took a deliberately managed route somewhere for a purpose. Reuters is saying the India has now stepped down its search effort, I think all the countries that were searching have now been told that the plane is on land in some unknown location and the effort is now to discover motive, in the hope that leads to answers. There's a lot more to come out about what was on board (passengers and cargo) it seems to me.
 
B2707SST
Posts: 1287
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:25 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28

Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:23 am

Jon Ostrower posted a WSJ update a couple of hours ago. He referred to hourly SATCOM pings, which I think is new information. This comment was also interesting and contradicts the FWF tweet:
Officials in government and industry have regarded the southern corridor into the Indian Ocean as the more likely path of the 777, but haven't ruled out the northern arc.

The track from northern Thailand to Kazakhstan crosses some of the most heavily militarized airspace in the world, including western China. According to the industry official, many of those nations "would have MiGs up in the sky before you even knew it" to intercept any unidentified flying object.

Google "What Satellite Data Reveal About Flight 370's Location" to read the article; I can't seem to link to it directly.

-B2707SST

[Edited 2014-03-15 23:26:48]
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