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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:24 pm

Quoting GipperPDX (Reply 128):
Life insurance policies do not pay on suicides. Hide the wreckage
/ black boxes = no evidence of suicide = beneficiaries paid. That is one of several reasons a
suicidal pilot would keep flying and try to hide it.

But wouldn't the whole thing with disabled transponders,possibly avoiding radars
and etc, be very suspicious for an insurance company?
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
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pvjin
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:24 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 150):
Most don't.

They will pay if the aircraft lies somewhere on bottom of Indian Ocean & won't be found any time soon, so there would be no proof about any single person causing the accident.

[Edited 2014-03-16 15:26:17]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
fiscal
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:25 pm

First a question - Can cabin crew make calls direct to MH Operations? or can it only be done via the cockpit?

Next Murder/Suicide theories. Only a small percentage of murder suicides do not involve a close relative, or romantic connection. Of those left, most seem to want to go out in a blaze of glory, but not on this occasion. Also most suicides are planned/mulled over for a period of time, so there is usually a "history" of noticeable behavioral change, but quite often only picked up in retrospect.

Also it is reported that both pilots did not ask for each other to be assigned to this flight. That would tend to indicate that only one would be involved and would need to disable/lock out the other to perform the deeds.

Just thinking...
 
k83713
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 146):
Please do not judge these two guys without evidence.

Agree, we need to have a bit of heart before claiming specific people are to blame for 240 souls dead. There should be strong reasons for all to happen in the way it happened, and I doubt one man insanity is the answer.
 
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pvjin
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:34 pm

Quoting Freeman (Reply 100):

Sorry but that story makes absolutely no sense if you think about it for more than 30 seconds.

If you have government backing why on earth would you want to hijack a 777 to do such a thing, when you can just buy some old 747 wreck, paint it in Iran Air force 747 livery & do the whole thing with it?

Easier, cheaper & way more believable.

[Edited 2014-03-16 15:35:55]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
uta999
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:34 pm

I asked this in a previous thread.

How much further south could it fly on a single engine; at a lower speed or altitude? Would it increase the range significantly? A flight sim would be useful for this.

I suspect it may have been able to reach Antactica and landed on the ice during daylight. If the wings were covered in snow it would be pretty hard to find.

The question is why?

[Edited 2014-03-16 15:36:30]
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slowroll
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:34 pm

Quoting slvrblt (Reply 116):
I alluded to something similar to this scenario back in part 14, reply 293. I hope to god this guy and me are both wrong, I hope these poor folks have found a final resting place somewhere.
But it makes a chilling amount of sense.

If this were the case it would take A LOT of people and money involved. Why not just buy cheap used wide bodies, setup a phony airline while you are doing it, and then do your thing. No reason to do this high risk venture with low odds of success.
 
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Btblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:36 pm

What we know:

Plane is missing.

Phones rang (according to relatives)

The plane has flown north west

The plane has flown south west

Pings received.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:36 pm

Quoting uta999 (Reply 160):
I asked this in a previous thread.

How much further south could it fly on a single engine; at a lower speed or altitude? Would it increase the range significantly?

Someone answered you before too. Less range at lower altitude. Less range with one engine.
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:38 pm

Quoting uta999 (Reply 160):
How much further south could it fly on a single engine; at a lower speed or altitude? Would it increase the range significantly?

How about, it already had fuel on board from a previous flight. Wasn't the previous flight a repositioning flight?
 
KELPkid
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:39 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 119):
For the first 5 or 6 hours they wouldn't know anything was wrong, especially at night. And beyond that point when they wondered why they hadn't arrived in PEK, what could they do?

Doesn't MH have seatback moving maps (like most other Asian airlines?). If so, I'd venture that quite a few passengers knew something was way way wrong...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
TUNisia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:40 pm

It comes as FBI investigators say the disappearance of MH370 may have been ‘an act of piracy’ and the possibility that hundreds of passengers are being held at an unknown location has not been ruled out.

Officials revealed today that it is possible the aircraft could have landed and transmitted a satellite signal from the ground.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-final-time-off.html#ixzz2wAU4iuA2
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affirmative
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:41 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 150):

Quoting HNL (Reply 147):
Quoting GipperPDX (Reply 128):

Life insurance policies do not pay on suicides.

Yes they do!

Most don't.

But how would you prove who committed suicide and who got murdered in this case?

----------------

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 132):

If this was a deliberate act to somehow put the eye on Malaysia and it's eventual deficiencies maybe it will work. I guess we can't tell yet.

Your theory of the two being from two extremely different backgrounds with most likely very different views on most things may be a hot potato. However, one of the first rules we get taught in CRM is never to take ideologies or political/religious views into a cockpit environment. Professionalism dictates that you do your job and then you can sort out your differences.

----------------

I'm getting fed up with people wasting time trying to get this into another terrorist plot. Sure, if you bought in to the US government propaganda telling you that you are the target because you're the biggest, best and baddest maybe you should start looking into things like GDP and National debt.. If or when the Chinese starts asking for their money back you will know, and there's a possibility that will happen pretty soon.

(Sorry for this OT, I just had to ventilate)
I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:42 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 159):
Easier, cheaper & way more believable.

The question is: is this a one man show or is there a more elaborate organization involved.
 
baldwin471
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:43 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 165):


The electronics for IFE could've easily been switched off and customers informed it was a technical problem - thus no seat back moving map. I've actually been on a flight where the seat back IFE was off for the 7+ hour duration due to some problem or another.
 
iberiadc852
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:44 pm

Quoting socalgeo (Reply 112):
It's hard for me to say, we came up with a range estimate of 2970 miles, but we really don't know. It could be more, but it is likely that it is not more than 15 or 20% more...(300 - 600 miles). So we can be pretty confident that it couldn't go much longer, given the time and range constraints that we have (6 hrs, 2970 mi, +/-)

The problem is that relies on flying a long time in a dumb direction, after having succeeded in a very sophisticated trama to hijack a 777 with none of the crew or passengers be able to warn of the situation in the post 9/11 era, to finally die there because of running out of fuel.

As surreal the situation is, if it was a hijacking (and I think it was), that brilliance/dumbness "duality" about the plan executors is surreal within surreality
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:45 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 165):
Doesn't MH have seatback moving maps (like most other Asian airlines?). If so, I'd venture that quite a few passengers knew something was way way wrong...

For the millionth time, the IFE system including the map is easily disabled from the cockpit, and you wouldn't need much of an excuse. "Sorry folks, it's not working".
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
affirmative
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:46 pm

Quoting uta999 (Reply 160):

I asked this in a previous thread.

How much further south could it fly on a single engine; at a lower speed or altitude? Would it increase the range significantly? A flight sim would be useful for this.

And you were answered.. Flying on one engine does not save fuel. The drag from the engine not running plus the drag from having to use rudder and ailerons to compensate will increase drag quite a bit as well as the fact that the engine will have to be working harder and thus outside of its optimal operating range will significantly decrease range.
I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
 
slowroll
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:46 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 165):
Doesn't MH have seatback moving maps (like most other Asian airlines?). If so, I'd venture that quite a few passengers knew something was way way wrong...

I would assume they could be disabled, if desired.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 168):
Quoting pvjin (Reply 159):
Easier, cheaper & way more believable.

The question is: is this a one man show or is there a more elaborate organization involved.

Which I think the point was it's more likely a one man show, given that there would be easier ways for an elaborate organization.
 
KIAS
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:47 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 152):
Must ask you out of curiosity, but what would you do in the EE bay to disable ACARS?

Open the ACARS CMU AC circuit breaker or disconnect CMU power supply from 115v AC.
"We fly, but we have not 'conquered' the air. When we presume mastery, we are often startled by our ignorance." - DHW
 
k83713
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:47 pm

Do F/A have a chance to declare emergency from the deck to the ground?
 
cabochris
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:47 pm

The Chinese must be a little nervous that the northern arc potentiality and likely puts the machine somewhere on the ground (if landed), very close to Uyghur region... and are those people ever oppressed and leaning on the extremes.

I'm sure the world's powers and their satellites are scouring any country with a "stan" on the end.

Where are you 28420
 
Viscount724
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:48 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 165):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 119):
For the first 5 or 6 hours they wouldn't know anything was wrong, especially at night. And beyond that point when they wondered why they hadn't arrived in PEK, what could they do?

Doesn't MH have seatback moving maps (like most other Asian airlines?). If so, I'd venture that quite a few passengers knew something was way way wrong...

If it was a suicide mission involving a pilot (more likely than cabin crew), they would have almost certainly switched that off, like other electronics (transponders etc.)
 
Chaostheory
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:53 pm

Quoting ThunderboltDrgn (Reply 103):
According to the Independent, 3000miles (2600nm) was the aircrafts maximum range at FL300.
I think this is the first time I have seen such a specific range specification.

How much further could they have reached at FL350/400?

Assuming they had 40t at the point of diversion, FL350 would give them 2900nm and FL400 would take them to 3100nm at .84M (GE-90 engines).
 
iberiadc852
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:55 pm

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 166):
Officials revealed today that it is possible the aircraft could have landed and transmitted a satellite signal from the ground.

That's maybe the only thing they should have kept until at least they could go over the place.

Some questions that arise:

- How much time do those signal take to confirm the location?
- When did they know it could be from the ground?
- Has the aircraft transmitted anything after that?
- And especially...where did supposedly land?. (Not that I want to warn any terrorist, but I think the actual warn is the proper new)
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:56 pm

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 178):
Assuming they had 40t at the point of diversion, FL350
would give them 2900nm and FL400 would take them to 3100nm at .84M (GE-90 engines).

Ok thanks.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
jelliesR
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:00 pm

Quoting k83713 (Reply 143):
Why? Just because? As simple as that?

You can ask the same question of so many crimes where the person is found insane. Some may argue anything involving murder requires some degree of insanity. If he hid the depths of a passionate hatred of the ruling party, I can imagine him having internal justifications twisted as they may be. For all we know he left a very clear message, that he wanted made public, but the government has decided to sit on. Maybe he wanted the plane to be shot down and when that didn't happen he ran out of options.
Why do monks self-immolate in front of crowds? while they don't take anyone with them, they certainly inflict horrors on innocent people that they can never forget.

There are plenty of examples of what many now think he did. It doesn't require belief in aliens, government level conspiracies or any magical thinking. Some people think it is inconceivable that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, and look for patterns in randomness to this day. I guess it is human nature to under-weight madness and singular acts even if it means believing ludicrously complicated conspiracies instead.

[Edited 2014-03-16 16:03:11]
 
danvs
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:00 pm

Does anyone know if China, India, Turkmenistan and other countries along the "northwest track" have been asked to review radar data for primary returns (unidentified plane)?
 
Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:03 pm

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 166):
Officials revealed today that it is possible the aircraft could have landed and transmitted a satellite signal from the ground.

The Rolls Royce "end of flight" engine report after about 4 hours was probably right anyway.
Then it was sort of denied.
Then we learn the flight may have flown for 4 hours.
Then later it might have been 7 hours.
There was probably a gap in satcom handshakes after 4 hours so that they stopped looking. Until they found one much later after avionics were somehow powered up again on the ground.

It would be nice if investigators could be kind enough to share more of their satcom graphs, say at 4 hrs, with an error estimate, assuming they truly compute those graphs from raw data received by only one satellite (Inmarsat-3 F1 RTD delay?, phased array levels?, ...).
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:03 pm

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 179):
That's maybe the only thing they should have kept until at least they could go over the place.

Some questions that arise:

- How much time do those signal take to confirm the location?
- When did they know it could be from the ground?
- Has the aircraft transmitted anything after that?
- And especially...where did supposedly land?. (Not that I want to warn any terrorist, but I think the actual warn is the proper new)

All they confirmed was that theoretically if the aircraft was powered up on the ground, that the SATCOM would continue pinging the satellite. That's all they said. We already all knew that.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
slowroll
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:04 pm

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 179):
That's maybe the only thing they should have kept until at least they could go over the place.

Some questions that arise:

- How much time do those signal take to confirm the location?
- When did they know it could be from the ground?

The ground speculation is probably based on the fact that the prior ping was at or near the same distance.

[Edited 2014-03-16 16:05:35]
 
jelliesR
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:06 pm

Quoting slowroll (Reply 185):
The ground probably is based on the fact that the prior ping was at or near the same distance.

In a hold pattern over deep water. Waiting for the fuel to run out.
 
TUNisia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:08 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 183):
The Rolls Royce "end of flight" engine report after about 4 hours was probably right anyway.
Then it was sort of denied.
Then we learn the flight may have flown for 4 hours.
Then later it might have been 7 hours.
There was probably a gap in satcom handshakes after 4 hours so that they stopped looking. Until they found one much later after avionics were somehow powered up again on the ground.

It would be nice if investigators could be kind enough to share more of their satcom graphs, say at 4 hrs, with an error estimate, assuming they truly compute those graphs from raw data received by only one satellite (Inmarsat-3 F1 RTD delay?, phased array levels?, ...).

I'm thinking investigators don't want to say that is true, because it might hamper them finding the place. I've felt all along the plane has landed somewhere. It lends credence to the fact that some of the cell phone could be dialed and just rang with no answer. Also, the Rolls Royce report of a successful end of flight transmission.

CNN video of reporter saying that the families were told there's a possibility the plane landed somewhere.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/vi...n-airlines-families-day-9.cnn.html
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
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Dalavia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:13 pm

Quoting cabochris (Reply 176):
I'm sure the world's powers and their satellites are scouring any country with a "stan" on the end.

If we follow the hypothesis for a moment that the plane landed safely because of its cargo (whatever that was), then the 777 would be expendable and probably broken up to become "lost".

If that is so, then my question is this: is there any kind of satellite-based remote sensing (probably military) that could still identify THIS particular mass of metal from any other mass of metal in a shed or even buried?
 
edmountain
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:15 pm

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 187):

I'm thinking investigators don't want to say that is true, because it might hamper them finding the place. I've felt all along the plane has landed somewhere. It lends credence to the fact that some of the cell phone could be dialed and just rang with no answer. Also, the Rolls Royce report of a successful end of flight transmission.

I thought the cell phone ringing as being meaningful was debunked a long time ago.

And what's the source for the successful end of flight transmission? Was that confirmed or just a leak that's been promulgated without basis?

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 187):

CNN video of reporter saying that the families were told there's a possibility the plane landed somewhere.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/vi...n-airlines-families-day-9.cnn.html

Is the alleged end-of-flight transmission said to occur at the same time as the last satellite ping?

More questions than answers as usual.
 
Lindenwold
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:16 pm

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 187):

if the phones rang, authorities would have been able to locate the aircraft by now IMO.
 
rcair1
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:17 pm

Quoting ThunderboltDrgn (Reply 154):
But wouldn't the whole thing with disabled transponders,possibly avoiding radars
and etc, be very suspicious for an insurance company?

Suspicion is not proof.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 164):
How about, it already had fuel on board from a previous flight. Wasn't the previous flight a repositioning flight?

That would have been included in the fuel on board - they don't start filling assuming it is empty. They add what is needed for the flight.

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 166):
Officials revealed today that it is possible the aircraft could have landed and transmitted a satellite signal from the ground.

Sorry - this is useless information - probably some comment by some nameless official taken out of context - but totally useless.

- We don't know where it is - so of course it could have landed.
- The SATCOM pings - which was the last signal - would come from the a/c in flight, or a powered up a/c on the ground.

We did not need the FBI to tell us this - anybody who has been following this knows it.

What would be useful is for the FBI to reveal any real data saying the ship has landed, or crashed, or even a hint to where it is that is less that 1000's of square miles.

Recommended reading..

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 4):

Sanity Check - 3/16/14 16:00 Zulu
rcair1
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:18 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 155):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 150):
Most don't.


They will pay if the aircraft lies somewhere on bottom of Indian Ocean & won't be found any time soon, so there would be no proof about any single person causing the accident.

My point was that in a definitive case of suicide, most policies won't pay. The circumstances around this incident make it impossible to say with certainty that it was suicide by either member of the flight crew specifically, so therefore this is unique and yes, a policy will likely pay out here.

Now if there's a note, or if there are clues that point to this being part of a planned act by one specific person, then it's likely there'd be a fight by the insurer about paying out.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 159):
If you have government backing why on earth would you want to hijack a 777 to do such a thing, when you can just buy some old 747 wreck, paint it in Iran Air force 747 livery & do the whole thing with it?

Easier, cheaper & way more believable.

Two words; plausible deniability. The government of (insert nation here) buying an old B747 and it later ends up on a suicide mission against (insert target here) sends up far more red flags about a state-sponsored act than a B777 just up and vanishing, then turning up as a weapon later.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
keegd76
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:22 pm

Quoting edmountain (Reply 189):
I thought the cell phone ringing as being meaningful was debunked a long time ago.

It was.

Repeatedly.

  
Nothing comes down faster than a VTOL aircraft upside down.
 
k83713
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:22 pm

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 181):

He made a statement in his facebok after trial. He had a statement in his t-shirt about democracy being dead. He even made a statement about his FS rig on Youtube. Why this time he would go without anything stated? See, you give example of self-immolation, but they do it not in the forests or mountains, they deliver the message. In this case somebody wanted the plane just to vanish completely and that is opposite to making any statements...We need a note from him that it was him to do it, or evidence he was at controls all those 7h. Until then theory it was somebody else is at least equal.
 
edmountain
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:24 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 192):
My point was that in a definitive case of suicide, most policies won't pay. The circumstances around this incident make it impossible to say with certainty that it was suicide by either member of the flight crew specifically, so therefore this is unique and yes, a policy will likely pay out here.

Now if there's a note, or if there are clues that point to this being part of a planned act by one specific person, then it's likely there'd be a fight by the insurer about paying out.

Some (many? most?) cultures cast suicide in a very negative and shameful light. I think the specter of shame (or potential blame and subsequent vengeance against close relatives) would be a far more powerful motivator for someone to cover or confuse their tracks than finances or insurance.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 192):
Two words; plausible deniability. The government of (insert nation here) buying an old B747 and it later ends up on a suicide mission against (insert target here) sends up far more red flags about a state-sponsored act than a B777 just up and vanishing, then turning up as a weapon later.

Right, because nobody would possibly notice a missing 777?
 
greaser
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:27 pm

Interesting NY Times piece that really is just damning of the Malaysian Gov't:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/wo...task-of-finding-flight-370.html?hp

Fair Use:

"A British Royal Air Force base in the colonial era, the Malaysian air force base at Butterworth sits on the mainland across from the island of Penang at the northern reaches of the Strait of Malacca. There, in the early morning hours of March 8, the four-person crew watching for intrusions into the country’s airspace either did not notice or failed to report a blip on their defensive radar and air traffic radar that was moving steadily across the country from east to west, heading right toward them, said the person with knowledge of the matter."

"Neither that team nor the crews at two other radar installations at Kota Bharu, closer to where the airliner last had contact with the ground, designated the blip as an unknown intruder warranting attention, the person said. The aircraft proceeded to fly across the country and out to sea without anyone on watch telling a superior and alerting the national defense command near Kuala Lumpur, even though the radar contact’s flight path did not correspond to any filed flight plan.

As a result, combat aircraft never scrambled to investigate. The plane, identified at the time by Mr. Najib as Flight 370, passed directly over Penang, a largely urban state with more than 1.6 million people, then turned and headed out over the Strait of Malacca."
Now you're really flying
 
Tangowhisky
Posts: 667
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:30 pm

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 127):
The data we have, which is scarce, makes pilot suicide the most plausible scenario.

If your hypothesis is true, then this is the most planned pilot suicide in history.
Only the paranoid survive
 
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pvjin
Posts: 3586
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:30 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 192):
Two words; plausible deniability. The government of (insert nation here) buying an old B747 and it later ends up on a suicide mission against (insert target here) sends up far more red flags about a state-sponsored act than a B777 just up and vanishing, then turning up as a weapon later.

Obviously they wouldn't let the public to know the government was behind the airplane. They could just set up some shady cargo company in some poor developing country & then make that company to be the official buyer of the aircraft.

How does an airliner disappearing and turning up as a weapon raise not red flags? That's something that has never happened & would require serious government co-operation.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
rcair1
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:32 pm

Warning to mods..... I'm loosin' it - need to step away.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 179):
Some questions that arise:
- How much time do those signal take to confirm the location?
- When did they know it could be from the ground?
- Has the aircraft transmitted anything after that?
- And especially...where did supposedly land?. (Not that I want to warn any terrorist, but I think the actual warn is the proper new)

In all likelihood the only satellite signal was the SATCOM pings. We already know that they were received and we know that if the plane landed and was powered up - the SATCOM pings could continue.
So this speculation that the last SATCOM ping was sent on the land has no more credance than saying it was send while in flight.

No location information is provided by those signals.

Quoting slowroll (Reply 185):
The ground speculation is probably based on the fact that the prior ping was at or near the same distance.

But - flying along a path with roughly constant distance from the satellite, or turning around and flying 100 miles the other way, or circling in place would all look the same to the satellite.

There are thousands of miles that would fit that criterion. I don't think it is reasonable to make any determination that the plane is on the ground or not..

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 187):
I'm thinking investigators don't want to say that is true, because it might hamper them finding the place. I've felt all along the plane has landed somewhere. It lends credence to the fact that some of the cell phone could be dialed and just rang with no answer. Also, the Rolls Royce report of a successful end of flight transmission.

Where did you seen any report of a end of flight EH transmission? That would be big news.
If any cell phone had connected to a tower - at the end of a flight - we would know where the plane is.

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 187):
CNN video of reporter saying that the families were told there's a possibility the plane landed somewhere.

Non-information. We all know this and have.

Quoting edmountain (Reply 189):
And what's the source for the successful end of flight transmission? Was that confirmed or just a leak that's been promulgated without basis?

  
As I said....

TUNisia - I see this is your first post in this thread - so you may not have seen it. You may find the sanity check at post 4 (or 5) of this string answers a lot your questions. It is a compilation of a lot of information and answers many questions.
rcair1
 
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Dalavia
Posts: 455
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:34 pm

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 197):
If your hypothesis is true, then this is the most planned pilot suicide in history.

Not my hypothesis, just trying to marry the leaks received by Flying with Fish with the other data that is emerging (though much more slowly, it seems).

But it is an intriguing question - could military satellite remote sensing be used to locate and identify a particular broken up 777?

EDITED: Sorry, I responded to the wrong quoted hypothesis. But my question remains...

[Edited 2014-03-16 16:36:15]
 
jelliesR
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:41 pm

Quoting k83713 (Reply 194):
Why this time he would go without anything stated?

Because Anwar was standing for election, despite the vote rigging and setbacks, he was still running, still talking, still on the rise, until the prosecutor appealed the reversal of the verdict, and now? right before the flight? he is stuffed.

The pieces of the psychological puzzle are pretty clear. He invested a lot in his political ideals, and they got dashed by (in his mind) corrupt ruling leaders and a corrupt judiciary. When the rule of law can be subverted by those in power it can be profoundly depressing.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:42 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 22):
How possible would it be for this (or any) aircraft to climb to 70,000 or higher? What would happen to it?

Stall way before that.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 32):

Quoting pvjin (Reply 26):
Maybe a Concorde could do it

60k ceiling =(

60k service ceiling, meaning it could go higher. If memory serves the Concorde service ceiling was predicated on emergency descent times, not aerodynamics.

Anyway that's neither here nor there.  
Quoting rcair1 (Reply 34):

Regarding my "Sanity Checks"

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 4):
Sanity Check - 3/16/14 16:00 Zulu

It is my SINCERE HOPE that people posting will take the time to read these. They are a lot of work to put together and the goal is to streamline the conversation by answering questions/providing background information.

I know they are long - I'm as terse as I can be.

By doing this - perhaps we can stop the repeated questions about stuff over and over again - and focus the discussions on new information - give the mods a break.

-rcair1

I, for one, am a big fan of your sanity checks. Please keep up the good work!

Quoting TheWipp (Reply 50):
What I didn't get about that oil rig worker, I'm not familiar with oil rigs, but why was it only one guy? Aren't there a few people on an oil rig? Was he all alone? Wouldn't he call someone when seeing something like this?
That sounds really weird to me.

Since that whole thing was debunked, it is a moot point. Do we even know this guy exists?

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 51):

Quoting MakeMinesLAX (Reply 39):
No help for flying the plane, but it would be tremendously beneficial for practicing navigation without the assistance of ATC.

I think a 777 pilot on a 777 could handle this quite easily. I believe you can just enter a series of waypoints (GPS locations) in the flight management computer and the ship will pretty much fly itself there.
Perhaps one of the commercial pilots can comment.

Correct. You enter waypoints and set the autopilot to LNAV. The autopilot will then follow the waypoints.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 82):
Quoting edmountain (Reply 38):
For example, suppose there were 200 cell phones on board and 10 of them were left on for whatever reason.

And suppose at least 5 of those were smartphones equipped with GPS chips; couldn't those have been used as a potential source of a signal to trace the last-known location of the aircraft? It's not like a cellular signal would be needed to get a GPS fix.

GPS does not help any since it doesn't send any information from GPS devices. Satellites don't know where GPS devices are.

Quoting aseem (Reply 120):
To all those suicide theorists. If the Captain were to commit suicide, why does he have go off the radar. He does not even have to go to full cruising height. He can just plunge into the Gulf of Thailand.

To ensure the plane is very hard to find?

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 133):

Journalists: could you please ask investigators about the 01:30+ call at the next daily briefing?

Remember the article in the StraitsTimes first reported on this site by loladaisydukes, Thread #5, Reply 121, posted Sat Mar 8 2014

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPANG: A pilot said he established contact with Malaysia Airlines plane MH370 moments before it went missing.
The Boeing 777 captain, who asked to not be named, said he was flying 30 minutes ahead of the missing aircraft, and was asked to use his plane's emergency frequency to contact MH370 by Vietnamese air traffic control officials who wanted to establish its location.
The pilot, whose plane was bound for Narita, Japan, told Malaysia's New Sunday Times: "We managed to establish contact with MH370 just after 1.30am and asked them if they have transferred into Vietnamese airspace.
"The voice on the other side could have been either Captain Zaharie or Fariq, but I was sure it was the co-pilot," he told the newspaper.
MH370 was piloted by Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah, 53, and co-pilot Fariq Abdul Hamid, 27.
"There were a lot of interference... static... but I heard mumbling from the other end," said the B777 captain. "That was the last time we heard from them, as we lost the connection."
Those on the same frequency at the time, including vessels on the waters below, would have heard the exchange, he said.
But he said he did not detect anything unusual during the contact. "If the plane was in trouble, we would have heard the pilot making the Mayday distress call. But I am sure that, like me, no one else up there heard it."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I believe is significant is that the call was made not before MH370 went missing as the paper says, but AFTER it went AWOL and headed west.

The report is not from an anonymous tipster, but by the crew of Malaysia KUL->NRT on Mar 7th. Investigators should have been able to easily identify the pilot filing the report.

Can investigators confirm or deny?

This was debunked days ago.

Quoting btblue (Reply 162):
What we know:

Plane is missing.

Phones rang (according to relatives)

The plane has flown north west

The plane has flown south west

Pings received.

Those relatives are almost certainly wrong. Just because you hear a ring doesn't mean a cell phone is ringing. As mentioned if the phones could be reached even to ring, tracing them would be trivial.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 175):
Do F/A have a chance to declare emergency from the deck to the ground?

Through a satellite phone if the plane is so equipped. This could be disabled by the pilots though I think.

Quoting danvs (Reply 182):
Does anyone know if China, India, Turkmenistan and other countries along the "northwest track" have been asked to review radar data for primary returns (unidentified plane)?

I'm sure they have and are reviewing this data.


From previous thread.

cat3appr50: Hard to believe that ATC red flags apparently weren’t raised (and notice to “authorities” initiated) when the expected handoff from Malaysia Center to Vietnam Center didn’t occur, with secondary radar painting MH 370 up to that point, the normal good bye message to Malaysia Center, then no comms. to Vietnam Center initiated, loss of secondary radar (transponder), etc.?

Answer: Planes "disappear" all the time for a variety of reasons, though they are typically "found" very soon. ATC/radar/comms just aren't that perfect. With no other indications of anything, it takes a while before alerts are raised since the assumption is that the flight is proceeding as planned.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:45 pm

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 200):
But it is an intriguing question - could military satellite remote sensing be used to locate and identify a particular broken up 777?

There are a lot of space-based assets with classified capabilities in the sky.

But realistically? No. There is no "easy button" to press.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
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Dalavia
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:08 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:48 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 203):
There are a lot of space-based assets with classified capabilities in the sky.

But realistically? No. There is no "easy button" to press.

That is what I suspected would be the case.

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