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liquidair
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:26 pm

Just watched Inmarsat rep on Bbc news...

its their system that pings the airplane if no communications received for an hour, not the other way round. The plane then answers the request.

interestingly, there was a map on the screen, which was highly sectioned and looked honey combed in appearance, each section having a corresponding code. I wasn't able to read those codes, but that does indicate granularity in location of signals... Of sorts anyways.
trying to stop my gaseous viscosity go liquid
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 136):
No, but the pilot(s) oxygen supply will outlast the cabin's oxygen supply.

But not the crew stations...
 
Mitico12
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:15 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 144):
Stealing a plane for future use (if you can steal one) makes perfect sense. You aren't going to get anywhere near a target without getting shot down. So you hide the plane for future use. Maybe repaint it and attempt to operate it as a charter or private jet at a later date. I would think you could fly pretty much anywhere unmolested and you could be at your target before your victims had a chance to realize what was happening and scramble fighter jets as a defense. That jet could be hidden indefinitely. Of course that scenario would mean a very ugly ending for the passengers on flight 370.

I don't know how many people subscribe to the whole "stolen jet masked as a legit flight" on a later date.

I mean, if you're scheduled to fly into a certain place, aren't all the ATC entities aware of your flight plan? So, essentially, some of you are suggesting that this "fake flight" steals the status of a scheduled airline for that route that date? What happens when the actual airline shows up on route that day too?

Also, if they mask themselves as a charter/private carrier, do you think its that easy to get an approval for flyover when no one knows anything about your airline/company? Where did you get the 777 from to register it?

Too many difficulties in using an airplane at a later date...too many.
 
edmountain
Posts: 235
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting Toni_ (Reply 118):
In my opinion, you can't just disregard the inexperience that simple. When was the last time the entire world looked at Malaysia with a million-and-one questions after an event of this scale and level of difficulty? Yes, there has been plenty of room for improvement in the way they handled things, but I prefer to cut them some slack. Atleast till this horrible puzzle is (more) complete.

When a country that is more than capable of 'doing 100 miles per hour' during a crisis, is doing anything less than 100, I will be the first to critisize the hell out them. The USA comes to mind after hurricane Katrina (with good ol' G. Dubya Bushmeister telling the director of his emergency management agency that he was doing: "a heck of a job").
With Malaysia we are only now starting to find out where they stand and what they're capable of in a situation like this.

Just because the USA set the bar low with Katrina does not let the Malaysians off the hook.

I personally agree completely with nupogodi. I was cutting the Malaysian authorities a great deal of slack and indeed taking everything the PM said during his press conference at face value because I assumed after gathering a week's worth of data he would at least present a very deliberately worded message. This appears not to have been the case.

A great many people around here picked up on the key distinction between ACARS being disabled versus simply sleeping until its next scheduled message. I would have expected the Malaysian authorities to also be cognizant of this critical piece of the puzzle. They evidently were not. Either the message was sloppy or there was a thorough misunderstanding of the underlying systems. Neither situation is acceptable.

The damage now is not all of the other information presented by the Malaysian authorities must also be viewed with utmost cynicism.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:30 pm

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 145):
The F/A's have the ability to control the cabin lighting. Whether or not the pilots can override that system without heading into the E/E bay is another question.

Having been on an AC A320 where we had cabin equipment (including lighting) failure on T/O, I can tell you yes they can cycle that from the cockpit. It was pretty eerie, as soon as the plane took off all of the lights shut off and the emergency lighting came on. The fans that blow air in your face shut off, etc, all you could barely hear was the wind outside. When we were well into our climb the captain said, "Whoops, we've had a bit of an electrical problem, let's turn that around" and everything came back on and we had a pleasant flight  
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:30 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 149):
ACARS and transponders were shut down systematically at close intervals when the plane was deliberately being made stealth/missing after 1:19am.

That certainly seems to make the most sense (more than what the Malaysian PM made in his press conference the other day when he categorically stated that ACARS was shut down before the plane cleared the Malay coast).
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
capri
Posts: 499
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:31 pm

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 143):

If they really went undetected and avoided radars somehow by any means, they can do the same again airborne, I have a gut feeling so many things are going on behind the scenes and they are working on it and it's not what they tend to let us believe, also there is a possibility someone, some country some intel is hiding something from the others, the thought about Malaysia becoming an illegal arms dealings transit location is frightening from an article posted in an earlier thread and the Malaysian government is embarrassed that went under its nose or some high profile officials are culprit as well and they sorting themselves out
 
Mitico12
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 148):
Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 142):
Stupid question, but do you think the pilot/perpetrator shut off the following as well:

1. Wing tip/tail tip strobe light
2. Beacon light
3. Wing anti-collision

How about cut off cabin lighting too?


All of those are trivially disabled from the cockpit, even in the lightest and smallest of aircraft.

Let me clarify - do you think those lights were disabled or continued to be lit so that it gave an appearance of a normal flight to other traffic in the area?
 
k83713
Posts: 160
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:34 pm

Quoting L1011 (Reply 126):
Malaysia Airlines does have female flight attendants. I've flown with them several times, and some of them were definitely female.

I asked this question two threads ago and answers I received for that:

Quote:
dc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2132 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted Sun Mar 16 2014 00:33:07 your local time (22 hours 55 minutes 31 secs ago) and read 66906 times:

According to wiki, there is no F on MH's 777.

Pretty sure MH was male F/As.

Quote:


CrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1780 posts, RR: 43
Reply 7, posted Sun Mar 16 2014 00:38:32 your local time (22 hours 48 minutes 53 secs ago) and read 66461 times:

Quoting k83713 (Reply 2):
Are there men among F/A at MH routes or only women? Do we know their deck lay-out? If there was an assault or threat a man more likely to try to resist...

Definitely. On most flights the chief purser is male, and there are plenty of other male f/a's.

Martijn


See no problem to stay corrected though.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:35 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 151):
But not the crew stations...

IIRC the cabin crew oxygen bottles are smaller than the flight crew ones. The flight crew have like ~1-2hr, the cabin crew bottles are like ~30min, oxygen generators for pax are 12-20min or around there, but unknown if this a/c was equipped with generators or bottles for pax.

Too much guesswork to really be comfortable saying anything about potential oxygen systems, other than there is no way they flew depressurized in the flight levels for the time that they did. If they were not in the flight levels, they would not have made it that far (time-wise).
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
capri
Posts: 499
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:36 pm

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 152):
I don't know how many people subscribe to the whole "stolen jet masked as a legit flight" on a later date.

I mean, if you're scheduled to fly into a certain place, aren't all the ATC entities aware of your flight plan? So, essentially, some of you are suggesting that this "fake flight" steals the status of a scheduled airline for that route that date? What happens when the actual airline shows up on route that day too?

Also, if they mask themselves as a charter/private carrier, do you think its that easy to get an approval for flyover when no one knows anything about your airline/company? Where did you get the 777 from to register it?

Too many difficulties in using an airplane at a later date...too many.

what you said is good and makes sense, but what is frightening is this shadowing thing that they can pull or if they did already, I know it's crazy and requires high skill and lots of help, but it's not 100% impossible
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:36 pm

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 157):
Let me clarify - do you think those lights were disabled or continued to be lit so that it gave an appearance of a normal flight to other traffic in the area?

I wasn't there, man. If they really were at FL295 it's meaningless what lights are on, since it would look like any other aircraft. If they were really low, it's meaningless what lights are on, since they would look (and sound) very much unlike any other aircraft.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
GiveMeABreak
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:36 pm

Long time frequent flier, long time lurker of Airliners.net, first time poster here.

Money down for posting: Check  checkmark 

Believe me I'am certainly nobody who want to do Iran bashing, but here is something to give the A.netters community to think:

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/2067...g-unclaimed-in-the-moscow-airport/

Like for every criminal investigation, No motive no crime:
Since Iran is suffering very hard with the actual applied sanctions and their accounts frozen in most of the western world we might have a motive.
Russia don't want to be involved so they choose to send the money via ship to Malaysia, wire transfer is not possible and ships directed to Iran maybe searched in the Gulf by the means of embargo.
There are direct flights to Iran but in this case everything need to be just right. The right F/O, the prepared ground crew to evade screening of cargo. And then Go!

I think the captain was never involved, in my opinion he's a good guy! I Think it would be hard for him to leave his family behind, just for some cash.

If You read the above article, there might just be a motive, since 26 billion US$ is almost the GDP of a small size country!

Possible Flight route according to FlyingWithFish:

https://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...?id=194863&filename=phpoioPcT.jpeg


Keep up the good work

Frank

[Edited 2014-03-17 10:41:36]
 
edmountain
Posts: 235
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:37 pm

Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 130):
With the plane being missing so long now, Occam's does not apply I think we are definitely in the realm of Zebras now!!!

I think we are left with a Spock quote. "if we eliminate the impossible, what ever is left, however improbable, must be true"

On the contrary, I think with the plane missing so long Occam's razor applies more than ever. The simplest explanation for the plane missing is that it is at the bottom of the ocean in a part of the ocean that has yet to be searched.

And Spock did say that, but he was quoting Sherlock Holmes.
 
flyenthu
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:37 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 155):
(more than what the Malaysian PM made in his press conference the other day when he categorically stated that ACARS was shut down before the plane cleared the Malay coast).

Probably incorrect information. They were also making a huge change in their minds as well from accident to a deliberate event. Lots of info..etc.
 
mandala499
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:38 pm

Quoting k83713 (Reply 110):
However, all their F/A are males, so certainly they would be prepared to resist to possible assault.

You have got to be kidding me... so those MH girls I had a fling with were actually guys? Oh no!

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 149):
ACARS would have had to have been disabled after F/O communication. I am convinced that ACARS was disabled between 1:19am and 1:37am when ACARS transmission was expected 30 min after 1:07am. Just because last ACARS message was at 1:07am does not mean that it was shut down at that time.

ACARS and transponders were shut down systematically at close intervals when the plane was deliberately being made stealth/missing after 1:19am.

Disabling the ACARS on VHF and HF is simpler than I thought...
Just select a frequency valid on the HF or VHF that's used for data... and the VHF/HF goes into voice mode.
Now, this makes it extremely easy to do when one is switching frequencies in a hand off by ATC... you can switch your comms and the other guy's without raising suspicion... and add the 3rd VHF too for good measure. (HF on data is rare on this part of the world).

But anyway, there are easier ways still, but only if you've taken control of the aircraft & flightdeck... just go to the ACARS menu, there's one menu item which opens up the option of "VHF ENABLE" and "SATCOM ENABLE" (and where fitted "HF ENABLE")... just deselect them... and VOILA! You're no longer sending any ACARS... but receiving it, well, so what? Anyway, you can always add with the select all radios to voice in addition of going through the ACARS page.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Gatorman96
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:38 pm

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 143):
On 24/25 March, in Netherlands (The Hague) there is the Nuclear Security Summit, world leaders (incl. Obama, Putin etc) will all come to attend this major event.

What if... that 777 will be used to carry something 'nuclear' to Western Europe. If come organization claims to fly that 777 once it's airborne and on it's way to Europe already. Governments won't be happy to shoot a missile to a nuclear aircraft over European territory.

The amount of coordination needed to successfully steal a commercial airliner is one thing. Add to that securing a nuclear device without being detected, then flying it to Nuclear Security Summit (some irony there), which will be attended by many world leaders, killing them all as well as destroying a city, again without detection. This is so far fetched I can barely grasp it. Would make an awesome movie though...
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:40 pm

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 132):
I'm sure this has been covered in the previous threads, but I haven't seen it: Do the pilots have the ability to disable the release of the O2 masks or shut off the flow of O2 to the passengers? This seems like a long shot to me.

At a FL430 cabin altitude, passenger O2 access or time is irrelevant. Its supply pressure isn't high enough to allow O2 absorption by the human bloodstream. Even a short exposure time at this altitude will cause unconsciousness.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
k83713
Posts: 160
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:40 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 165):
You have got to be kidding me... so those MH girls I had a fling with were actually guys? Oh no!

See my source above. I have no idea in fact, I asked the question and people who knew answered. Never meant to disappoint anybody for sure...  

[Edited 2014-03-17 10:41:34]
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10381
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:45 pm

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 166):
Quoting airbuseric (Reply 143):
On 24/25 March, in Netherlands (The Hague) there is the Nuclear Security Summit, world leaders (incl. Obama, Putin etc) will all come to attend this major event.

What if... that 777 will be used to carry something 'nuclear' to Western Europe. If come organization claims to fly that 777 once it's airborne and on it's way to Europe already. Governments won't be happy to shoot a missile to a nuclear aircraft over European territory.

The amount of coordination needed to successfully steal a commercial airliner is one thing. Add to that securing a nuclear device without being detected, then flying it to Nuclear Security Summit (some irony there), which will be attended by many world leaders, killing them all as well as destroying a city, again without detection. This is so far fetched I can barely grasp it. Would make an awesome movie though...

I think that while the destination is unlikely, what you are talking about as a concept is a definite possibility and I pray the intelligence services are able to detect this rogue plane in flight in the future.

Hank Whitmore, a former Boeing 777 pilot, also told “Fox & Friends” that it looked like there was a struggle in the cockpit of the missing plane.

“The way it climbed up to up 45,000 feet and then went down radically -- that doesn’t sound like an airplane problem.”


This guy isn't too smart. That's how they suffocated all those troublesome passengers.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:45 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 165):
But anyway, there are easier ways still, but only if you've taken control of the aircraft & flightdeck... just go to the ACARS menu, there's one menu item which opens up the option of "VHF ENABLE" and "SATCOM ENABLE" (and where fitted "HF ENABLE")... just deselect them... and VOILA! You're no longer sending any ACARS... but receiving it, well, so what? Anyway, you can always add with the select all radios to voice in addition of going through the ACARS page.

Hahahah thank god you have confirmed this mandala (or should I say Mandela and bug you?). I have been saying this all along based on what anonymous 777 drivers have said online and to me, they all say this is possible, but for a long time no one in this thread or elsewhere believed me, and for ages people kept talking about the E/E bay.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
Gatorman96
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:45 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 167):
Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 132):
I'm sure this has been covered in the previous threads, but I haven't seen it: Do the pilots have the ability to disable the release of the O2 masks or shut off the flow of O2 to the passengers? This seems like a long shot to me.

At a FL430 cabin altitude, passenger O2 access or time is irrelevant. Its supply pressure isn't high enough to allow O2 absorption by the human bloodstream. Even a short exposure time at this altitude will cause unconsciousness.

Appreciate it. Clearly this wouldn't be an an issue then for the pilots since they are on their own O2 supply? What about the FA's?
 
capt747ret
Posts: 35
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:50 pm

Concerning the oxygen systems.
Certification of an aircraft always takes the worst case scenario, the pax O2 system is designed for a max certified load of pax, including infants being held. That is why in a 3 seat row there are 4 O2 masks.
Then using the max operating ceiling/altitude. There must be enough O2 to allow an emergency decent to 10,000 foot of cabin altitude. The aircraft is certified and had to demonstrate that the A/C can do this maneuver in less than 2 minutes.
The pilots have to successfully demonstrate this maneuver in the sim in order to get the endorsement on their ATP. The same go with the Co-pilot.
The precipitous drop of some 40,000 feet of altitude by 370 can be true and has been demonstrated. I do not discount this fact. The airplane comes down so fast that the altimeters can’t keep up. I’ve done this myself many times in the sim with many different category D large transport airplanes.
The flight deck crew has a separate O2 system with much longer usefulness time. Again it is certified with a full flight deck of people (at least 4 for the 777). The flight deck would comprise the Captain, the Co-pilot, sometimes a relief pilot and at least one other seat for a check airman or regulator (for US carriers the FAA, DOT or others designated by FAR’s). I don’t know the layout of the 777 but I can see at least 4 seats up front.
There is also a walk around bottle with full facemask as part of their emergency equipment that is available on the flight deck.
We know that the flight deck was only occupied by the 2 working crew.
The pax O2 can be manually deployed by the pilots. It also has a cabin altitude sensor that will deploy the masks (aka the rubber jungle) at 14,000 cabin altitude. Don’t mix up cabin altitude with airplane attitude. Unless there is a total depressurization the 2 would be different.
 
Gatorman96
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 169):
I think that while the destination is unlikely, what you are talking about as a concept is a definite possibility and I pray the intelligence services are able to detect this rogue plane in flight in the future.

I'm not particularly against the using the plane as a weapons delivery system theory, but so many things has to go right, as well as a mass amount of coordination, for this to come to fruition.

[Edited 2014-03-17 11:07:47]
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3582
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:56 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 125):
Just trying to think of a scenario that doesn't involve a criminal act. Would something like this be possible or realistic?

Whatever the procedure is (and I'm not totally sure of it either), it certainly would not be what these pilots and/or hijackers did. They wouldn't be literally going out of their way to make themselves as difficult to find as possible. What they'd be doing would be finding a way to notify ATC on their route that comms/transponder are out. I'd guess the safest way to do that would be to just keep going on their flight plan; turning back without being able to notify ATC might put them in conflict with other aircraft. ATC will pretty quickly figure out that there's a plane they were expecting that hasn't checked in, and there just happens to be an unidentified radar blip that's following the same flight plan.

I'm not sure if that *is* the procedure, but there is no possible way the correct thing to do is to change course in a way nobody's expecting, fly way off to the west outside of coverage of any ATC sector that's on your filed flight plan, and apparently just keep going. That's obviously unsafe for a whole bunch of reasons.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe there are designated hold areas near major airports in case of problems, so once they got near PEK, they could circle until they were either able to fix the problem or China scrambled some fighters to escort them down.

This is a big reason why the mechanical theories never made a lot of sense, and make even less now that we know (and have known for a couple of days) that they flew for 7+ hours. If they had a problem that was a safety of flight issue (like a fire), they would have at least notified ATC and then headed to the nearest suitable airport. If they just had a comms/electrical problem, they wouldn't be going completely off their flight plan in seemingly random directions. And obviously even if you assume they did have a problem, it wasn't bad enough that they couldn't stay in the air basically until their fuel ran out.

I've also thought about some sort of Bergenair type scenario, where they lost most instruments and had limited spatial orientation (especially at night) but otherwise would have full control over the plane, but that does not explain how they apparently flew to specific waypoints. It also would have to be a different type of failure than Bergenair and one we haven't seen before; blocked pitot ports wouldn't explain a loss of comms or transponder. So there is literally no mechanical scenario that has ever happened before that fits the facts of this flight.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
hamiltondaniel
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:40 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:57 pm

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 173):
I'm not particularly against the using the plane as a weapons delivery system

You may want to check your wording there, unless you actually have no problem with some lunatic flying a bomb into Legoland...
 
rcair1
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:39 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:58 pm

Quoting edmountain (Reply 111):
In particular, I now wonder on what basis do they say transponder was "switched off." How do they distinguish between the transponder being switched off versus failure?

They do not know. That is what is on the CNN timeline - but you will see my Sanity Check says "Transponder stopped transmitting" - because we do not know if it failed or ws turned off.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 74):
• The transponder stopped transmitting at 1:21 - loss of secondary radar.

I've updated the master copy of the Sanity Check so that the timeline says this. That will be in the next Sanity Check - whenever that tis.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 112):
Thanks for correcting. Following up on my question, why are they now questioning that ACARS was not shut down before the last verbal from F/O?

They are not now questioning it. They are correcting misstatements/misquotes from earlier that said it was. They only know when the last transmission was and when the next was expected (and not received).

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 115):
Is there a map showing the other approximate ping locations in addition to the arcs that were deduced from the 8:11

I've not seen any information other than the posted corridors.

Quoting hivue (Reply 116):
Hate to keep being a cynic but it sounds like the authorities didn't know what they were talking about in the first place.

I'm sure it depends on "what authorities." I feel confident that the actual investigators knew. The farther you get away from them, the less confident I am that they knew. I believe the corrections are the natural 'circle back time' it takes to correct an error.

In other words the sequence was something like this.
1-> Investigators/experts knew.
2-> Incident PR people - were told but may not understand it.
3-> PM Speech writers either got it wrong, or were told wrong by 2->
4-> The press picked it up from 3.
5-> It went viral on the internet and was repeated ad nauseum
6-> The investigators/experts got wind of it and tried to get corrections out.
7-> Took a while to filter out - it is now there.

So - somewhere between 2 and 3 it a mistake was introduced. The PM (or his speech writers) used "positive language" to demonstrate knowledge/control.
rcair1
 
rcair1
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:01 pm

Correction to Sanity Check.
Thanks to Mouldypete for catching this.

The 7th bullet in the Sanity Check Synopsis should read:
There are subsequent primary radar returns west over Malacca Strait and then north west. Since it is primarily radar - a reflection - it does NOT identify the a/c, however it has been correlated with SATCOM pings so confidence is high that the returns are from MH370

The word NOT was left out.
It is too late to correct the posted one, I've corrected the master so this correction will be in the next post of the Sanity Check.
rcair1
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:06 pm

Now, mandala, I have another question for you: I have heard that the outflow valves will not allow cabin altitude to drop below 14000ft as long as bleed air is working. Can you confirm or deny that? Is it possible to completely depressurize the aircraft without turning off in the "inflow" (don't know the jargon) ? If so, wouldn't the flight deck and cabin quickly grow incredibly cold? Or do you think intentional decompression is a valid hypothesis?
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
edmountain
Posts: 235
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:09 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 176):
They do not know. That is what is on the CNN timeline - but you will see my Sanity Check says "Transponder stopped transmitting" - because we do not know if it failed or ws turned off.

In that event technical issues (as opposed to malevolence) would seem to be back on the table. Notwithstanding an apparent seven hour flight after the transponder stopped transmitting.
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3582
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:11 pm

Quoting edmountain (Reply 179):
In that event technical issues (as opposed to malevolence) would seem to be back on the table. Notwithstanding an apparent seven hour flight after the transponder stopped transmitting.

Sure, if you ignore all the other evidence and only look at this one thing, then yeah, pretty much everything's possible again.

People are getting hung up on technicalities now.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1683
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:13 pm

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 132):
I'm sure this has been covered in the previous threads, but I haven't seen it: Do the pilots have the ability to disable the release of the O2 masks or shut off the flow of O2 to the passengers? This seems like a long shot to me.

Someone please correct me if my info is wrong, but I have a couple of off-site sources that have told me that: yes, the oxygen masks in the passenger cabin can be disabled from the cockpit. There are a few small portable O2 bottles, but they wouldn't last very long, and they would only sustain a few people.

As warped as it sounds, I think the real question here is "Could the flight crew kill the passengers and FAs by cutting off the oxygen and depressurizing the passenger cabin?" Sadly, I think the answer is yes.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
rcair1
Posts: 1147
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:15 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 124):
How does that clear anything up? We still don't know if ACARS was disabled prior to the last voice com or after it.

It corrects misinformation.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 146):
Some facts to consider to add to the sanity check summary:

I will do that

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 149):
ACARS would have had to have been disabled after F/O communication.

Why? It could be either before or after, we do not know. We know it was between 1:07 and 1:37
See

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 74):
two.
• The last engine health report was received at 1:07am. The next was expected at 1:37 am and was not received. This indicates that the transmission of ACARS data was disabled between 1:07 and 1:37, but not when during that period.

---

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 165):
But anyway, there are easier ways still, but only if you've taken control of the aircraft & flightdeck... just go to the ACARS menu, there's one menu item which opens up the option of "VHF ENABLE" and "SATCOM ENABLE" (and where fitted "HF ENABLE")... just deselect them... and VOILA! You're no longer sending any ACARS... but receiving it, well, so what? Anyway, you can always add with the select all radios to voice in addition of going through the ACARS page.

Yes - this was reported by some experts a bit ago - but it nice to have your confirmation.
See.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 74):
ACARS can be instructed not to use SATCOM or VHF from the Cockpit. This would effectively stop ACARS from sending data. Access to the EE bay is not required.
rcair1
 
edmountain
Posts: 235
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:15 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 180):
People are getting hung up on technicalities now.

I think having a scenario go from being essentially excluded to possible but less likely is a bit more than a technicality.
 
Gatorman96
Posts: 841
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:16 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 181):
As warped as it sounds, I think the real question here is "Could the flight crew kill the passengers and FAs by cutting off the oxygen and depressurizing the passenger cabin?" Sadly, I think the answer is yes.

Aside from a battle over the flight controls, this could be an explanation for the sudden climb to 43-45K feet.
 
JettTracer
Posts: 6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:21 pm

Based on FB updates I have, the pilots were assigned last minutes for this flight.
The original pilot who was supposed to fly the plane was removed last minute.
While MAS has denied the allegation, the captain of the said flight was said to be on holidays and called up for duty.
Hope someone can verify the information.

http://m.themalaymailonline.com/mala...-denies-pilot-swap-in-mh370-roster
 
SimonDanger
Posts: 83
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:23 pm

Hi gang, first post. Been reading as much as I can since thread 16 or so and I am perplexed by a couple of things:

1. Doing an cntrl.-f on several threads does not show many references to al Queda (I could have spelled it wrong). Why is the group that was responsible for a very sophisticated (successful) terrorist plot 12 years ago not a top contender for a terror plot involving a/c now? If they knew then how to fly complex a/c, why would they not be able to coordinate this? They have money, time, experience, track record and do not fear death.

2. What's the deal with the pilot's family? What do they say about what the pilot's state-of-mind was in the days before the flight? Are they being blackmailed into silence?

3. Three words: China, China & China! The world's 2nd superpower, where the plane was destined, has nothing to add to this investigation other than an aberrant satellite image? Conspiracy theory: if an a/c managed to go undetected by military radar in China, they would never, ever, admit it. If they shot down an intruder in it's airspace, they would never admit that either. Just my guess.

4. Global politics. There are thousands of military assets scanning the skies in that part of the world, by every super power and tin-pot dictator with a military. Then there's China, the U.S., Russia, Pakistan, India. Satellites, aircraft, radar, radio, sonar, cellular etc. IMHO there is far more that is known but not being said. Intelligence gathering is expensive and takes decades to deploy; a missing plane is not a big enough reason to disclose your trade-craft to your adversaries. The geo-politics of this region cannot be stressed enough.

Lastly, don't a lot of smart phones (like the I-phone) never actually shut off, since the battery cannot be removed? Doesn't Apple get its own metadata from all its phones surreptitiously all the time? Just my 2c.
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:36 pm

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 186):
1. Doing an cntrl.-f on several threads does not show many references to al Queda (I could have spelled it wrong). Why is the group that was responsible for a very sophisticated (successful) terrorist plot 12 years ago not a top contender for a terror plot involving a/c now? If they knew then how to fly complex a/c, why would they not be able to coordinate this? They have money, time, experience, track record and do not fear death.

What motive do they have? And I would hardly call them sophisticated at this point.

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 186):
2. What's the deal with the pilot's family? What do they say about what the pilot's state-of-mind was in the days before the flight? Are they being blackmailed into silence?

The family isn't talking, as is their right.

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 186):
3. Three words: China, China & China! The world's 2nd superpower, where the plane was destined, has nothing to add to this investigation other than an aberrant satellite image? Conspiracy theory: if an a/c managed to go undetected by military radar in China, they would never, ever, admit it. If they shot down an intruder in it's airspace, they would never admit that either. Just my guess.

China has nothing to gain. They are careful enough not to shoot down any random intruder, and haven't in the past. If they saw them, they would intercept.

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 186):
4. Global politics. There are thousands of military assets scanning the skies in that part of the world, by every super power and tin-pot dictator with a military. Then there's China, the U.S., Russia, Pakistan, India. Satellites, aircraft, radar, radio, sonar, cellular etc. IMHO there is far more that is known but not being said. Intelligence gathering is expensive and takes decades to deploy; a missing plane is not a big enough reason to disclose your trade-craft to your adversaries. The geo-politics of this region cannot be stressed enough.

What kind of assets do you think would help this investigation that aren't being utilized?
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
tomlee
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:01 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:36 pm

Quoting liquidair (Reply 150):

interestingly, there was a map on the screen, which was highly sectioned and looked honey combed in appearance, each section having a corresponding code. I wasn't able to read those codes, but that does indicate granularity in location of signals... Of sorts anyways.

Those honey combed shapes are the spot beams which provide "broadband" satcom so you have a tight beam which can provide a few terminals with more bandwidth than the global beam. From what I can tell if they were using that they would have a lot better of an idea of where the plane was but they were using the global beam (the big outline of it all) and using signal metrics with fuel/flight parameters to get those arcs.

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 186):
Lastly, don't a lot of smart phones (like the I-phone) never actually shut off, since the battery cannot be removed? Doesn't Apple get its own metadata from all its phones surreptitiously all the time? Just my 2c.

Technically everything with a soft-power button is never totally off. But unless your phone is specifically hacked when you turn it off it does turn off. (Your battery would die just as quick and they can't hid the horrible battery life of a modern smart phone) Also in order to get the meta-data assuming your phone is hacked it has to register on a network and in the air that is difficult to maintain for any length of time due to the speed/height. (Doesn't mean cellphone providers shouldn't be looking for a momentary registration from a passenger's cellphone)
 
rcair1
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:39 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:36 pm

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 186):
Doing an cntrl.-f on several threads does not show many references to al Queda (I could have spelled it wrong).

I've seen very little discussion of Al Queda in news or on the thread.
Taliban has been discussed more - and had denied any involvement.

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 186):
2. What's the deal with the pilot's family? What do they say about what the pilot's state-of-mind was in the days before the flight? Are they being blackmailed into silence?

I think I've got most of what has been reported in the "Pilot Related Conspiracy Theory" section of the Sanity Check (reply 74 of this string for the current one). I'ts not much.

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 186):
If they shot down an intruder in it's airspace, they would never admit that either. Just my guess.

I think a shoot down would have been spotted by space born assets. The US and others have already stated they looked and did not find evidence of an explosion.

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 186):
The geo-politics of this region cannot be stressed enough.

Who knows.

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 186):
Lastly, don't a lot of smart phones (like the I-phone) never actually shut off, since the battery cannot be removed? Doesn't Apple get its own metadata from all its phones surreptitiously all the time? Just my 2c.

They certainly stop transmitting if in airplane mode or powered off. There may be powered components (real time clock or something). Can't be much or your phone battery would die if you left it shut off for a time.
I believe Apples use of non-rechargeable batteries is a marketing ploy/design constraint
rcair1
 
tomlee
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:01 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:42 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 189):
I believe Apples use of non-rechargeable batteries is a marketing ploy/design constraint

Non-removable batteries also mean your phone has a limited life as lithium batteries have a finite cycle life. If your phone has a glued in battery replacing it is difficult and in the year or so that it lasts by the time it fails you would probably goto an apple store and get a new phone using their trade in program which they then just replace the battery and sell it as a reconditioned phone for another round of high margin money making.
 
k83713
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:38 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:42 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 181):
the oxygen masks in the passenger cabin can be disabled from the cockpit.


Answering to your question, no, pilot cannot turn off the oxygen supply system, he can only force it to activate, but at default it's automatic deployment.

So some info from 777 Flight Crew Operational Manual:

There are three positions of Passenger oxygen switch:

RESET (spring–loaded) – flow control units close if cabin altitude is below
13,500 feet.
NORM – system automatically activates when cabin altitude reaches
approximately 13,500 feet.
ON (spring-loaded) – system activates and passenger cabin oxygen masks drop.

Oxygen System

The oxygen system inside the crew rest area is a chemical oxygen generator
system which provide oxygen for approximately 12 minutes. The oxygen masks
in the bunks will drop automatically in the event of a decompression. They can
also be manually opened by inserting a hair pin or thin rod into the hole of the area
cover.
[Option: Gaseous oxygen]
The oxygen system inside the crew rest area is supplied by gaseous oxygen. The
oxygen masks in the bunks will drop automatically in the event of a
decompression. Each mask oxygen valve is held closed by a pin inserted into the
valve. Pulling on the mask or yellow streamer attached to the mask withdraws the
pin, causing the mask oxygen valve to open and oxygen to flow to that mask. The
bunk service units can also be manually opened by inserting a hair pin or thin rod
into the hole of the area cover.
Note: When the oxygen masks deploy, the green Oxygen Indicator
light in the common area illuminates.
Note: Cabin depressurization is indicated by a horn sounding
continuously in the crew rest area.

Decompression
If a cabin decompression occurs during cruise:
• a decompression horn sounds continuously in the crew rest area
• in the door 5 upper crew rest common area, the green oxygen indicator
light, located above the stair, will illuminate
The oxygen masks located above the bunks and seats will automatically deploy
when the cabin altitude is above 13,500 feet. Oxygen flow is available when the
mask or yellow streamer attached to the mask is pulled.
Crew rest occupants should immediately don one of the PSU or bunk service unit
oxygen masks, move to an unoccupied position, and fasten the seat/bunk lap belt.
WARNING: It is acceptable to reach over a seat/bunk
occupant to obtain an open/unused oxygen mask
to prevent oxygen deprivation / light-headedness
when moving to an unoccupied position.

[Edited 2014-03-17 11:43:18]

[Edited 2014-03-17 11:46:19]
 
fn1001
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:36 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:43 pm

Can someone explain why we have 2arcs, or corridors, from where the last ping could come? Why not from the area between the two arcs?
Mai bine să-ţi fie rău decît să-ţi pară rău.
 
tomlee
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:01 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:45 pm

Quoting k83713 (Reply 191):
They can
also be manually opened by inserting a hair pin or thin rod into the hole of the area
cover.

I always thought what would happen if I used a pin to poke those holes (now I know that not doing that was a good idea) a lot of passenger oxygen panels also have little holes from what I've seen and presumably that would also release the latch.
 
tomlee
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:01 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:46 pm

Quoting fn1001 (Reply 192):
Can someone explain why we have 2arcs, or corridors, from where the last ping could come? Why not from the area between the two arcs?

The primary radar returns exclude the middle and the sat only really provides a giant circle which is then narrowed down (according to the press conference) by using the minimum and maximum speed of the plane.
 
Rara
Posts: 2309
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:49 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 125):
If the crew lost the ability to communicate with the outside world, what would the procedure be? To me the first thing you would want to do is abandon a busy airway. Landing at an active airport would seem to be out of the question. I would basically want to find a clear road to travel on and dig out the maps and start looking for places to park. Perhaps the crew found a safe place to land where there was a greatly reduced risk of encountering another plane.

No, in reality it'd work just the other way around, sorry. If you lose communications, you stay on course and continue to your planned destination precisely because you want people to know where you are. Whatever happens, you do NOT just abandon the airway on your own; unless you lose one engine and have to divert, in which case you make a 90 degree turn away from the airway and descend. In case of lost comms there are precise procedures to follow right up to the landing at your destination airport; all of this is basic pilot training.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
User avatar
Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2169
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:50 pm

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 186):
Lastly, don't a lot of smart phones (like the I-phone)
never actually shut off, since the battery cannot be removed? Doesn't Apple get its
own metadata from all its phones surreptitiously all the time? Just my 2c.

I think its basically only ihpones and a few of the newest HTC-models that doesn't
have a removable battery otherwise most mobile phones have a removable battery.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
davidzill
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:26 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:53 pm

Quoting fn1001 (Reply 192):

Arc was originally a large circle, however the western side was dreamed out of range for 370. The middle portion was determined to be searched, leaving us with just east edge north and south bound arcs.

I'm going with North, I believe a terror group commandeered the aircraft, and that one of the pilots and at least one other crew member is involved. South bound suicide could be possible but defies all other actions and doesn't make sense. Has Iran, Kazakstan, Somalia, and North Korea reported if they had detected the aircraft? There are several reasons they would steal an aircraft for, and they probably spent years on this, probing for huge lapses in airport security and where fraudulent passports passed through largely undetected. 777 is a wise choice because it can virtually fly to any destination un-refueled.
 
hivue
Posts: 2099
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:58 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 176):
I feel confident that the actual investigators knew.

I wonder who they are. When I am critical of "authorities" I'm meaning to refer to people officially providing information, not to people who actually know what's going on (to the extent it is knowable).
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
GiveMeABreak
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:37 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32

Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:59 pm

Quoting davidzill (Reply 197):
here are several reasons they would steal an aircraft for, and they probably spent years on this, probing for huge lapses in airport security and where fraudulent passports passed through largely undetected.

check this out:

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/2067...g-unclaimed-in-the-moscow-airport/


Respectfully

Frank

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