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skiaplg
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:11 pm

I don't particularly mind the narrow seats on 10 abreast (I am a fairly thin person though) but what I do mind are the narrow aisles.

I flew AF but was seated in the last few rows in a 2 seat sections, which was fine. Just flew AA and had an aisles seat, and was bumped every ten minutes at least for the duration of the flight by other passengers and crew. Boarding and exiting took longer as well because of people's carry ons being too large for the aisle.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:26 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 48):
For those that cry about personal space, then go out and buy premium economy or even business class tickets.

Airlines run a business and are properly segmenting their product offerings with differing features.

Seems like many here that complain have champagne taste on beer budgets and want the world of service for impossibly low pricing.

The 10-seater 777 is a very good option for airlines to meet reality of rising cost, yet stagnant ticket pricing.

The complained is not about getting champagne on a beer ticket, it is getting a bad quality beer instead a good quality beer. If one could pay 10 or 20% more to get a better seat than the economy 10 seat across no problem, but paying double or tipple the price for a seat is often not on the budget if you pay yourself or the employer does not book business class for you and not every airline offers an economy plus.

And one point is, do passengers vote with there feet? If you can book for nearly the same price a cramped seat on a B777 and a less cramped seat on a A380, what do you chose?

[Edited 2014-03-19 10:10:56]
 
LondonCity
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:54 pm

Quoting JAL (Reply 47):
I sure hope that JAL doesn't follow suit!

Well JAL follows ANA and/or ANA follows JAL. So it could only be a matter of time before something happens.
 
trex8
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:14 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 51):
And one point is, do passengers vote with there feet? If you can book for nearly the same price a cramped seat on a B777 and a less cramped seat on a A380, what do you chose?

For many if it came to that it would depend on if the flights were exactly the same routing/time and who you wanted mileage on. I'll take a 10 across to maintain my UA status rather than "squander" those miles on another alliances carrier for sure!
 
PHX787
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:32 pm

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 52):
Well JAL follows ANA and/or ANA follows JAL. So it could only be a matter of time before something happens.

After JL taking the A350 order, I highly doubt it.

JL is starting to branch off and do it's own thing (because they primarily do not like how westernized NH's management is becoming) so they'll probably stick to what they have.
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mjoelnir
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:44 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 53):
For many if it came to that it would depend on if the flights were exactly the same routing/time and who you wanted mileage on. I'll take a 10 across to maintain my UA status rather than "squander" those miles on another alliances carrier for sure!

So you are looking for added value, just in an other direction. For somebody flying only seldom, or like me, having anyway to fly a lot of different airlines to get to the places I need to go, one would never exchange comfort for miles.
 
DeltaB717
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 54):
JL is starting to branch off and do it's own thing (because they primarily do not like how westernized NH's management is becoming) so they'll probably stick to what they have.

Off topic, but would you be able to expand a little on this point?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:01 pm

Quoting sr117 (Reply 7):
Or fly an another wide-body; it seems that the brilliant Boeing idea of giving fuselages space for "extra wide" seats in economy is nothing more than an invitation for airlines to squeeze in extra narrow ones instead.

Bingo. When I think about the two Boeing widebodies currently being made (leaving aside the 767), they are the sardine cans. The 777 with 10-abreast, which Boeing never had in mind except as a "high-density" use, and the 787 with 9-abreast, which Boeing also didn't seem to really have in mind for legacy use. Surprise! (not).

Airbus actually seems to want to force airlines to use wider seats. Exactly why I'm not sure, but they've basically said that they want to govern their aircraft to accommodate an 18" seat in Y and no smaller. The A350 will also be 9-abreast. There is no practical way to install 10-abreast seating in that airframe yet it is wider than the 787. Boeing addressing this with the 77X program, but for the 787, it's a pity that such an amazing plane will be such a sardine can for Y pax. I certainly will be avoiding that type for long flights.
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seabosdca
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:05 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 57):
The A350 will also be 9-abreast. There is no practical way to install 10-abreast seating in that airframe yet it is wider than the 787.

Airbus itself is selling a 10Y charter configuration for the A350.

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...50xwbfamily/a350-900/cabin-layout/

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 57):
or the 787, it's a pity that such an amazing plane will be such a sardine can for Y pax. I certainly will be avoiding that type for long flights.

Do you also avoid 747s? The seats will be exactly the same width. They are wider than the 10Y 777 (assuming the same aisle width).
 
mjoelnir
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:21 pm

The point a lot of you guys are avoiding to talk about, is that the superior CASM of the B777 and later the B777X depends upon offering the passenger, not the airline, a inferior product regarding comfort.
If you compare the 10 across B777 with the 9 across A350 or the 10 across or even 11 across A380 you get a narrower seat on the B777 and/or less space in the isle. Of course the moment you go 9 across on the B777 the comfort level rises considerable but it would still not rise above the comfort level of a 10 across A380.
One can long talk about Y passengers will not realize it or you should anyway fly business class and so on, but that does not change the facts.
So if we compare a A350 with a B777X, assuming they even about out on CASM, everything else the same on the same route, the airline flying the A350 should either be able to use a slightly higher price or draw more passengers on the same price level.
I still understand why the ME3 will go for sheer capacity, the maximum pax you can move with each flight, and buy the B777X in great numbers, but everybody else could start thinking about what you offer the plain standard Y passenger as the minimum comfort.

Again I understand the business arguments of maximising the number of Y class in the minimum needed floorspace, to maximise profit and it can work when everybody offers the same standard comfort and service.
But the idea that no passenger will realise the different level of comfort and take that in account when booking a flight I do not believe in.
 
tortugamon
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:39 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 59):
everybody else could start thinking about what you offer the plain standard Y passenger as the minimum comfort.

I believe that airlines will continue to make Y uncomfortable so they can drive down costs and drive up the number of flyers that want to upgrade to Y+ or J. A wider seat costs more to fly and the more comfortable it is the fewer the flyers that will want to upgrade.

I believe that the vast majority of flyers buy a ticket based on price first. Then route structure (non-stop, long layovers, and flight timing) second. I believe the third decision maker is the airline/alliance for FF miles purposes. Only then do I think aircraft type might enter into it but by then most customers have already made up their mind. I honestly believe that seat width isn't important unless its abnormally small like less than 17".

Certainly, it varies by market. CX and SQ for example, have a different clientele.

A350 should be more comfortable then the 777x but it may be that the 777x will make airlines more money per seat. Personally I can't wait to fly the A350.


tortugamon
 
cheeken
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:41 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 24):
I predict that in 5 years time, the 9 abreast B777 will be a thing of the past. Airlines today don't get a premium for the larger Y seat, putting them at a huge economic disadvantage.

Not true, SQ's new 77Ws are going to be fitted with the new Y seats in 9 across configuration!
 
mjoelnir
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:12 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 60):
A350 should be more comfortable then the 777x but it may be that the 777x will make airlines more money per seat. Personally I can't wait to fly the A350.

How should that be? I understand that the A350-1000 at 9 across and the B777-9 at 10 across should come out with a similar cost per seat.
 
infinit
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:45 am

Time to put NH down on my flight choice list

Quoting cheeken (Reply 61):

Yes.. SQ will never go 10 abrest on a 777
 
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longhauler
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:53 am

Quoting infinit (Reply 63):
SQ will never go 10 abrest on a 777

They don't have to, they have Scoot.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
PHX787
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:51 am

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 56):
Off topic, but would you be able to expand a little on this point?

Yeah, JL has been floundering for years because they operate on an old 80's/90's Japanese style board-heavy management system, with very little room for anyone below that to make any choices, express any opinon--basically, no one below management calls any shots. Upper Management is 100% in charge of the f/a's, mx, and plane orders.

It is true they like to follow aviation trends. They bought the 787 after NH when NH began to boast about how much it's going to save them, and how it's going to offer NH's flyers a lot of customers.

NH has since been able to fill their 787s pretty well. Many of my friends (from a customer-based point of view) also widely prefer to fly NH (no matter what a/c) over JL for various reasons as well.

When JL was nearing bk back in 2008, NH went through a huge company policy change. They wanted to not get sucked into the economic collapse like JL was going through, and also wanted to take advantage of the equality of JL's privatization. So they began to branch out, expand, take more risks, and run a smaller western-esque management system-something that would make jaws drop through the floor in Japan. Japan is so damn stubborn to change, and when I read about NH doing this, I was quite surprised. But happily surprised.

NH is one of Japan's most successful companies (but was hurt last year by fuel prices rising) and JL has since been struggling--even with BK restructuring.

BUT I digress. Sorry.

Quoting infinit (Reply 63):
Time to put NH down on my flight choice list

You won't regret. After my first flight with them I immediately signed up for miles. Love NH to death.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 59):
The point a lot of you guys are avoiding to talk about, is that the superior CASM of the B777 and later the B777X depends upon offering the passenger, not the airline, a inferior product regarding comfort.

That doesn't always have to be the case. NH always gets their cabin customized to maximize both their profits and their customers' happiness and comfort. I was very surprised about how wide their 77Ws feel; it simply feels like the aisleways are too wide. Heck, one as skinny as I am can squeeze by the cabin attendants pushing a cart down the aisle.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
Motorhussy
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:02 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 64):
Quoting infinit (Reply 63):
SQ will never go 10 abrest on a 777

They don't have to, they have Scoot.

And Scoot will be 9-abreast on their 787's whereas SQ will be doing the same in their wider A350's.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 62):
How should that be? I understand that the A350-1000 at 9 across and the B777-9 at 10 across should come out with a similar cost per seat.

Great if you can regularly fill those extra seats in the 779.
come visit the south pacific
 
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seabosdca
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:07 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 60):
I honestly believe that seat width isn't important unless its abnormally small like less than 17".

   There may be a difference on the margins with some unusually well-informed travelers, but it's dwarfed by the number of extra pax you can squeeze in at very little extra trip cost.
 
timpdx
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:44 am

I flew TK 9Y in Jan and thought it was nothing special space wise. Its PITCH that matters far and above width to me. The only time I have really noticed width was on NZ 767s to Raro last year and and in 2010. Then took a DL 767transcon and thought it was nothing special. Pitch sucked on the DL flight 32" and I think NZ had 34" (and very comfy seats). Huge difference, those 2 inches. Pitch is why B6 is getting more of my business this year since the DL changed their mileage plan. (and every merger rumor with B6 on Anet sends shivers down my cramped spine)
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vfw614
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:07 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 60):
I believe that airlines will continue to make Y uncomfortable so they can drive down costs and drive up the number of flyers that want to upgrade to Y+

Exactly my thoughts. And Y+ is, given what it offers, disproportionately expensive.The new Lufthansa offering is really ludicrous given what you get for oyur money. I am waiting for the time when traditional Y class cabins become so small that people will be forced to fork out extra money for Y+ not for the ocmfort, but to get seats. Might open up a wholly new market for a new type of long-haul carriers...
 
infinit
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:16 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 65):
You won't regret. After my first flight with them I immediately signed up for miles. Love NH to death.

I'll take your word for it!

Quoting longhauler (Reply 64):
They don't have to, they have Scoot.

No, SQ won't because they are SQ i.e. the quality leader
 
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longhauler
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:32 pm

Quoting infinit (Reply 70):

No, SQ won't because they are SQ i.e. the quality leader

Let me put it another way.

SQ sees a requirement for a low yield, higher capacity aircraft to remain competitive. Much like AF, EK, AC etc.

Instead of making a higher density version within the fleet, they are just painting something different on the side ... the same need, the same solution.

SQ most definitely IS the quality leader, but only because people will pay for that quality. They find themselves in a very enviable position. But ... the rest of the world has shown that the vast majority of people will not pay for that quality. I have a pretty good idea that if United (for example) offered a higher level of service like SQ, no one would pay for it ... they would still shop the cheapest seat.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
tortugamon
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:32 pm

Quoting infinit (Reply 70):
No, SQ won't because they are SQ i.e. the quality leader

If SQ orders the 777x as is rumored I am nearly positive that they will be going to 10-abreast in Y as there would be very little reason to buy the 777x if you don't add those seats. I could see them going 10-abreast and then re-launching/expanding economy plus with nearly 20" 9-abreast seats.

tortugamon
 
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seabosdca
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:49 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 72):
If SQ orders the 777x as is rumored I am nearly positive that they will be going to 10-abreast in Y as there would be very little reason to buy the 777x if you don't add those seats.

   I'll go further: if you don't install 10Y, the 777X is less competitive with the A350 than today's 777-300ER is with 10Y seating. Airlines who insist on 18" economy-minus seats (if there are any left; the CX domino has already fallen, and SQ looks to be next) are better served with the A350 than the 777.
 
EI747SYDNEY
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:17 pm

Does anyone have a pic comparison of the 10 abreast v 9 abreast?

It would be interesting to see.

Thanks

Robbie

     
''Live life on the edge, Live each and every day like it's your last, Hell you only live once''
 
tortugamon
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:22 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 73):
I'll go further: if you don't install 10Y, the 777X is less competitive with the A350 than today's 777-300ER is with 10Y seating. Airlines who insist on 18" economy-minus seats (if there are any left; the CX domino has already fallen, and SQ looks to be next) are better served with the A350 than the 777.

I agree.

Quoting EI747SYDNEY (Reply 74):
Does anyone have a pic comparison of the 10 abreast v 9 abreast?

There are plenty in the database but it is hard to tell by a photo if you ask me. The difference between 18" (A351) and 17.4" (possible on the 777x) is about the width of your thumb's finger nail.

tortugamon
 
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Stitch
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:30 pm

Well SQ and CX operated 10-abreast 747s and the 777X at 10-abreast looks like it will have identical seating dimensions, so did they only become quality airlines once they retired their 747 fleets?

And I'm not sure quality is solely - or even significantly - determined by seat dimensions. UA and DL (and until recently, AA) offer 9-abreast in Economy on their 777s, yet I expect if you polled a.netters, those carriers would all rank behind 10-abreast operators like AF, KL, EK and EY...
 
EI747SYDNEY
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:53 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 75):
There are plenty in the database but it is hard to tell by a photo if you ask me. The difference between 18" (A351) and 17.4" (possible on the 777x) is about the width of your thumb's finger nail.

Tell me about it!

I have 3 different tabs open here in work trying to see the difference between JAL and EK interiors!

Robbie

     
''Live life on the edge, Live each and every day like it's your last, Hell you only live once''
 
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wxman11
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:56 pm

in regards to the new seating configuration on NH777's flight, today NH008/JA783A came to SFO with the so-called new seating configuration. It caught quite a few passengers off guard thinking that what they had as an aisle is now considered a middle seat.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
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RE: ANA To Install Economy 10-across On Some B777s

Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:50 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 40):
Quoting LondonCity (Reply 14):
In fact, even with 10-across in Y, the ANA B777-300ER carries a maximum of 264 pax whereas the high density AC B777-300ER carries 458 pax. That's truly dense.

Those AC 77W's don't have first class - J, W and Y only - resulting in more available space for additional Y seats. T

Why are you referring only to those high-density 77Ws as lacking first class? No AC aircraft of any type have had first class since sometime in the 1980s. AC (and CP) both dropped F class then and significantly upgraded their business class product to almost F class standards then. CP did it first and AC soon followed.

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