DeltaXNA
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Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:55 am

They have so many routes that should be all mainline. But instead, they have all RJ's or at least a few in their schedule. ORD-LGA, ORD-BOS, ORD-ATL, ORD-DCA and there's a lot more, those just jump out at me.
 
stylo777
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:57 am

just a guess: frequency over capacity?
 
DeltaXNA
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:14 am

DL and AA have far more frequency than UA on most routes, and a lot more mainline as well. It's gotta be because UA's hubs are in very competitive markets.
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:23 am

Quoting DeltaXNA (Reply 2):
DL and AA have far more frequency than UA on most routes

I would like to see this silly claim substantiated by facts.

That aside, UA (and CO before them) were slow to catch on to the "bigger RJ" trend that DL has been pushing. DL and AA both still employ TONS of RJ's, mind you. But in some cases, they are CRJ-900 sized aircraft.
But I think you should expect to see the winding down of UA's CR2 and ERJ fleets over the next few years, in favor of larger 70-seaters. Just as Delta and AA will continue to do.
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:30 am

As for total number of airplanes, both UA and CO came in with a nearly equal number of airplanes with long-term contracts. There would be heavy fines involved for a breach of contract for not flying these planes, and the only way out is to reach a mutual agreement from the regional partner that would benefit both of them.
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:10 am

To inform this debate somewhat, let's look at the fleets side by side (I admit these are back-of-napkin figures):

United Express:

15x Dh-8-200 (C5)
5x Dh-8-300 (C5)
28x EM2 (OO)

48 Small Props

220x EM4 (EV)
14x CR2 (EV)
68x CR2 (OO)
28x EM4 (AX)

330 50 Seaters

70x CR7 (OO)
20x CR7 (YV)
25x CR7 (G7)
40x E70 (S5)
28x Q400 (YX)

183 Large RJs/Q400

Delta Connection:

14x CR2 (EV)
120x CR2 (9E)
31x EM4 (RP)
47x CR2 (OO)

212 50 Seaters

41x CR7 (EV)
22x CR7 (G7)
19x CR7 (OO)
32x CR9 (OO)
63x CR9 (9E)
28x CR9 (EV)
12x E70 (S5)
5x E70 (CP)
16x E75 (S5)
36x E75 (CP)

274 Large RJs


It should become quite apparent where the differences are.

First lets deal with large RJs, where the difference is ~90 frames. UA suffer in this department by merging second, and therefore getting their pilot contracts (read: scope) sorted second. They have 80 E75s slated for delivery with OO and YV, which will all but eliminate this discrepancy. Don't forget that DL and UA have almost identical scope language.

Regarding the 50 seaters, the answer - in one word - is EV, and in two words EV and CO. CO had the most restrictive scope in the industry, and therefore had a massive 50 seater fleet. UA is now straddled with that burden. More importantly, UA is bound by long term contracts for those aircraft whereas DL could park the OH (and 9E) aircraft at their will. At their peak OH had 162 50 seaters, which DL could [conveniently] depose themselves of.

Finally (if we ignore the small props) the UAx and DLx fleets are almost identically sized. UA have 27 more aircraft, which includes Q400s so they have virtually identical numbers of RJs.

If they are pretty much identical then why do people get worked up about it? I think the answer is the ER4. People are more likely to note that they are on a 50 seater vs a 70 seater (which many would assume was a mainline aircraft) the fact that UA is down 100 in Large RJs and up 100 in Small RJs defines the flying publics' (and Anet's) perspective IMHO.

And one final point, DL have plenty of major routes of their own on RJs (starting with virtually anything out of LGA except hubs and Florida), but people get worked up with UA using RJs on IAH-ATL. Again I think the answer is EM4 v E75.
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par13del
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:35 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
That aside, UA (and CO before them) were slow to catch on to the "bigger RJ" trend that DL has been pushing. DL and AA both still employ TONS of RJ's, mind you.
Quoting stylo777 (Reply 1):
just a guess: frequency over capacity?

I would say scope, scope, scope, UA is the way it is based on how the pilots and management want the airline.
As DL and AA has shown, management, the courts and the pilots can do something about scope, at least enough to make AA and DL look different from UA.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:05 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 5):
Again I think the answer is EM4 v E75.


  

Exactly. From a passenger standpoint, the 2x2 seating and wider RJ cabin of the E170/E175 isn't really a perceived downgrade from a mainline aircraft. If you're a business traveler that needs to get work done or have a 1-on-1 conversation with a co-worker during a flight I would think that an E170/E190 series would be preferred to any 3x3 narrowbody. The +/- 90-minute trip from ORD to DCA/LGA/BOS doesn't really require 500 channels of movie or audio either.

The E145 from IAD to IAH is what causes the grief and bad PR.
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:22 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 7):
The E145 from IAD to IAH is what causes the grief and bad PR.

  

The issue is partially the ER4 but also stage length. UA uses 50 seaters on gobs of 1,000 mile plus routes (IAH-IAD/CRW/PIT/MSP/MKE, etc.). DL caps 50 seaters at 750 miles.
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:35 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
The issue is partially the ER4 but also stage length. UA uses 50 seaters on gobs of 1,000 mile plus routes (IAH-IAD/CRW/PIT/MSP/MKE, etc.). DL caps 50 seaters at 750 miles.

  

Yep! That's my main beef with UA. I wish they would institute their own 750 mile rule. I was recently going through the UA schedules for June, and EWR-MSY is 3x ER4 (the return is 2x ER4, 1x E70). In my opinion, 3 hours is too long to spend on an ER4 despite ER4s being slightly better than CR2s.
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ordbosewr
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:49 pm

Let's not forget that it was NW that started the large RJ and they are who brought the scale of large-RJ's to DL.
I am pretty sure it was RA that did that. It was done when they created Compass around the time of bankruptcy.

also per the UA fleet plan we will start to see the same shift from small-RJ to large-RJ at UA.
They will have 34 145's and 135's depart in Q3 and Q4, while 27 175's are added from Q2 to Q4.

A net loss of 7 RJ's this year (and a net loss of 2 mainline).

This will no-doubt continue into 2015 (but no published fleet plan for 2015 exists from the company).
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:52 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
That aside, UA (and CO before them) were slow to catch on to the "bigger RJ" trend that DL has been pushing. DL and AA both still employ TONS of RJ's, mind you. But in some cases, they are CRJ-900 sized aircraft.
But I think you should expect to see the winding down of UA's CR2 and ERJ fleets over the next few years, in favor of larger 70-seaters. Just as Delta and AA will continue to do.
AA was far more "slow to catch on" with bigger RJs than United. Until very recently AA has been capped at 47 2-class RJs for well over a decade.

Nonetheless, the RJ trend penetrated far further at United than at either of its two large network rivals.

Based on data released by Boyd, for the period from April 1 to September 30 this year (i.e., summer 2014), the average seats per departure for the three U.S. network carriers is:

AA: 103 (108 AA, 98 US)
DL: 113
UA: 89

The pre-merger AA number is, again, obviously reflective of the relatively late entrance of large RJs into that system, and I suspect the relatively higher Delta number is reflective of the upgauging to large RJs and introduction of 717s. And needless to say, I suspect the AA number is unlikely to go much further as time goes on, and likely to start climbing in the relatively near future as the company continues drawing down 50-seat capacity and dozens of new large RJs, plus lots of new mainline aircraft, come online.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 7):
Exactly. From a passenger standpoint, the 2x2 seating and wider RJ cabin of the E170/E175 isn't really a perceived downgrade from a mainline aircraft.

I agree. From a passenger comfort standpoint the EJet is effectively a mainline plane - that's a great aircraft to fly. The only real major "comfort" or convenience differential vs mainline that I can perceive from my experiences on that plane is the overhead bin space, which while big enough to fit regular size roller bags fills up incredibly fast - even faster than mainline. On the EJets flights I've been on, if you aren't sitting in First, the front of Coach or have top-tier status with the airline, don't even bother trying to carry on - you might as well just gate check. Sort of the nature of the beast, I suppose - it's a nice 76-seater, but it's still a 76-seater after all.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
The issue is partially the ER4 but also stage length. UA uses 50 seaters on gobs of 1,000 mile plus routes (IAH-IAD/CRW/PIT/MSP/MKE, etc.).

It is remarkable how many relatively long, relatively large markets are covered by United with single-class 50-seat RJs - including, most incredibly of all to me, some hub-to-hub routes (i.e., 3 hours on an ERJ IAH-IAD).

[Edited 2014-03-19 05:53:58]
 
upsmd11
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:59 pm

Out of SDF there are nothing but ERJ and CRJ to all hubs. Once in a while we will get the E170 but rarely. I fly DL exclusively because of this.
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:12 pm

Part of what skews the perspection for DL is ATL. ATL being the massive connecting hub that it is has relatively few 50-seat RJs, and even a limited number of 2-class RJs for its size. There is a high percentage of mainline and they fly mainline into many secondary markets that are primarily RJs for AA and UA. The scale of the ATL mega-hub enables them to do so, similar to AA at DFW. DL still have a lot of RJs - look at DTW for example which is over 50% regional departures.

UA on the other hand, can't necessarily do that at ORD, IAD, or EWR without upsetting the balance of frequency vs. capacity if they were to flood a much more mainline in the mix.
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:37 pm

Quoting DeltaXNA (Thread starter):
They have so many routes that should be all mainline.

I'm curious, what exactly are you using to determine that a route should be all mainline?
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:11 pm

Quoting DeltaXNA (Thread starter):
They have so many routes that should be all mainline. But instead, they have all RJ's or at least a few in their schedule. ORD-LGA, ORD-BOS, ORD-ATL, ORD-DCA and there's a lot more, those just jump out at me.

Using ORD-LGA as an example, LGA is now a Delta hub and yet its service is all RJ to ORD. Where's the similar outrage?
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:12 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
The issue is partially the ER4 but also stage length. UA uses 50 seaters on gobs of 1,000 mile plus routes (IAH-IAD/CRW/PIT/MSP/MKE, etc.). DL caps 50 seaters at 750 miles.

   Between the ridiculously long haul 50 seaters and the terrible F product on the 70 seaters, no one looks forward to an RJ on UA, whereas AC/US/DL/etc's large RJs can have wifi/ife/meals, just like mainline in some cases.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
AA was far more "slow to catch on" with bigger RJs than United. Until very recently AA has been capped at 47 2-class RJs for well over a decade.

AA also has a boatload of M80s that had they gone through bankruptcy or a merger sooner would likely be replaced with large RJs.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
AA: 103 (108 AA, 98 US)
DL: 113
UA: 89

It's a lot of work for not a lot of seats. What CASM problem? 
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bahadir
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:18 pm

Part of the reason is looong Ch. 11 process and UAL group farming out most of the flying to RJ operators.
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washingtonflyer
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:22 pm

Someone made this analysis a couple months ago - noting that on a LOT of city pairs from their hubs, UA flies RJs on the route whereas Delta or American fly mainline equipment from their respective hubs. I tried to debunk this theory, but it was strangely resilient.

He was looking at cities like STL, MCI, and the like, and the comparison was noteworthy.
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:32 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 9):
In my opinion, 3 hours is too long to spend on an ER4 despite ER4s being slightly better than CR2s.

As a United 1-K who spends 100% of his time flying domestic routes, the seat-of-my-pants says E145s have it all over CR2s.

For instance, SFO-YYJ and BUR-DEN are back-killers in CR2s. But IAD-IAH, CLE-MSY, and JAX-EWR are walks in the park on E145s.

If you -- in fact -- fly these routes day after day, the differences between the cramped CR2 and more roomy E145 are palpable -- not theoretical.  
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:47 pm

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 10):
Let's not forget that it was NW that started the large RJ and they are who brought the scale of large-RJ's to DL.
I am pretty sure it was RA that did that. It was done when they created Compass around the time of bankruptcy.

Shuttle America was flying E170s for Delta well before Compass had any two-class RJs. The 'big RJ' count at Compass in 12/2008, two months following the DL merger, was 36 aircraft. Comair was flying two-class CR7s and CR9s in the same time frame. NW wasn't first, and did not bring scale.
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:52 pm

There is a special type of pain that is imparted by the CRJ200. The seat (or pew), the window placement, the cabin length, and the 2x2 all impart a set characteristic that yields pain.

The ERJ feels infinitely more comfortable.
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:54 pm

NW has the 36 ARJs in a 2-class configuration since 1998.

By the time of the merger the ARJs were gone but NW did have 72 2-class RJs - 36 CRJ-900s at Mesaba and 36 E175s at Compass. This was of huge benefit to DL and I believe more 2-class RJs that what DL was operating at the time.

I believe DL did not convert the CR7s to a 2-class configuration until 2010.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:54 pm

Quoting DeltaXNA (Thread starter):
ORD-LGA, ORD-BOS, ORD-ATL, ORD-DCA and there's a lot more, those just jump out at me.

The flip side of the coin says it might be smart scheduling.

Assuming demand isn't uniformly distributed over daytime hours, on a route like ORD-LGA, why fly empty seats in mainline during slower times like 11am or 2pm when E70 suffices ?

Off the top of my head, Delta flies 100% on large RJs for both LGA-ORD and LGA-BOS, so it's not like UA is the only one guilty here (although they are the worst offender)
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:55 pm

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 13):
Part of what skews the perspection for DL is ATL. ATL being the massive connecting hub that it is has relatively few 50-seat RJs, and even a limited number of 2-class RJs for its size. There is a high percentage of mainline and they fly mainline into many secondary markets that are primarily RJs for AA and UA. The scale of the ATL mega-hub enables them to do so, similar to AA at DFW. DL still have a lot of RJs - look at DTW for example which is over 50% regional departures.

UA on the other hand, can't necessarily do that at ORD, IAD, or EWR without upsetting the balance of frequency vs. capacity if they were to flood a much more mainline in the mix.

Sure, ATL has the passenger volumes for a lot of mainline but that doesn't explain UA's difference.

Some posters have made a distinction between 2-class RJs and single class (50-seater or smaller). The OP did not.

DL ops at LAX are all 2-class RJ or mainline. Everything from BOS (but one ERJ to CMH) is 2-class RJ or mainline. Everything by DL from STL today, save for one CRJ to CVG, is 2-class RJ or mainline. ORD and EWR are not so grossly inferior (!) to DTW and MSP that UA couldn't run more 2-class RJs and mainline if it wanted to. Like commavia, I really wonder if UA's 50-seaters in so many places, even on routes greater than 1000 miles, is really a profit-maximizing strategy.

[Edited 2014-03-19 07:57:25]
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:01 pm

Quoting DeltaXNA (Thread starter):

They have so many routes that should be all mainline.

Here is the real reason.

Back in the day Continental owned ExpressJet. They wanted to IPO it and they did making a huge windfall. Prior to that they set up the cost and revenue allocation processes internally that resulted in both being very favorable to ExpressJet. That allowed them to float ExpressJet and get big bucks. It also meant that RJ operations looked way more profitable than they should have. After they stopped owning ExpressJet, Continental really did nothing to fix it while US and DL in particular started assigning costs and revenue more accurately rather the prior philosophies which were essentially only charging regionals variable/incremental cost at the hub (no rent for facilities, no charge for check-in or BSO staff, no cost for use of kiosks or corporate commissions, etc) and splitting revenue in a way very favorable to the regional (rather than a mileage based split, giving more to the regional on the assumption that the seat on the mainline connecting flight would otherwise have gone empty). When Continental and United merged, that system carried over to UA. From what I understand only very recently have there been attempts to readjust it more toward the rest of the industry and that is why, IMHO, suddenly CLE went from being publicly called profitable to suddenly being always unprofitable. OTOH, I think the new system is closer to reality, but I wonder if it is still more favorable to regionals than DL which has seemingly really swung away from RJs in favor of more mainline. Cost and revenue allocation have everything to do with these decisions.
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:16 pm

Lets look at a few city pairs:

ORD - STL: UA flies 9x daily with 4 ER4s and 5 CR7s
DTW - STL: DL flies 5x daily with 2 CR7s, 1 E175, 1 MD88, and 1 319

ORD - MCI: UA flies 7x daily with 5 ER4s, 1 CR7, and 1 738
DTW - MCI: DL flies 4x daily with 1 CR7, 1 E175, 1 319, and 1 320

ORD - MSY: UA flies 5x daily with 4 CR7 and 1 739
DTW - MSY: DL flies 2x daily with 1 319 and 1 320

ORD - BNA: UA flies 6x daily with 6 ER4s
DTW - BNA: DL flies 6x daily with 1 CR7, 2 CR9s, 2 319s and 1 738

ORD - RIC: UA flies 4x daily with 3 CR4s and 1 319
DTW - RIC: DL flies 3x daily with 1 CR2 and 2 CR9s

ORD - RDU: UA flies 3x daily with 1 CR4 and 2 CR7s
DTW - RDU: DL flies 5x daily with 3 CR9s, 1 CR7 and 1 738

ORD - OKC: UA flies 4x daily with 4 ER4s
DTW - OKC: DL flies 2x daily with 1 CR7 and 1 CR9
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:20 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 25):
IMHO, suddenly CLE went from being publicly called profitable to suddenly being always unprofitable.

No one ever called CLE profitable. Go back and read the quotes carefully.
 
AviationAddict
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:31 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 21):
The ERJ feels infinitely more comfortable.

I think "infinitely" might be a stretch but I agree the ERJ is noticeably more comfortable. I would take one over a CRJ any day of the week.
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:35 pm

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 10):
Let's not forget that it was NW that started the large RJ and they are who brought the scale of large-RJ's to DL.
I am pretty sure it was RA that did that. It was done when they created Compass around the time of bankruptcy.

I know that Shuttle American was flying E170s for Delta before the merger and OO and EV (while still part of DL) were flying CRJ900s even before I retired in '05.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 20):
Shuttle America was flying E170s for Delta well before Compass had any two-class RJs. The 'big RJ' count at Compass in 12/2008, two months following the DL merger, was 36 aircraft. Comair was flying two-class CR7s and CR9s in the same time frame. NW wasn't first, and did not bring scale.

  
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:35 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 26):
Lets look at a few city pairs:

Just look at the hubs: at IAH DL has about 300 daily departing F seats; at ATL UA has 76. DL averages about 11 F seats per departure from IAH, while UA averages 3F per departure from ATL.
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jetblue1965
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:47 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 26):
ORD - STL: UA flies 9x daily with 4 ER4s and 5 CR7s
DTW - STL: DL flies 5x daily with 2 CR7s, 1 E175, 1 MD88, and 1 319

ORD - MCI: UA flies 7x daily with 5 ER4s, 1 CR7, and 1 738
DTW - MCI: DL flies 4x daily with 1 CR7, 1 E175, 1 319, and 1 320

Classic textbook case of frequency vs. comfort. There's no correct answer here.
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:00 pm

Don't forget one of the "original" regional jets - the Fokker 28!
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:15 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 26):
Lets look at a few city pairs:

Not a fair comparison. UA has to compete against AA and WN in ORD while DL has a fortress hub in DTW. One of the reasons why DL can fly more mainline planes than UA (and AA) is that DL faces the least competition among the big 3 legacies. The 3 legacies operate out of 17 domestic cities/hubs: SFO, LAX, PHX, SLC, DEN, DFW, IAH, MIA, CLT, ATL, CVG, ORD, MSP, DTW, PHL, WAS, NYC. Of these, I would say that only 5 have very little to none domestic competition: SLC, MSP, DTW, CVG and CLT. 4 belong to DL, 1 to AA, 0 to UA. Besides, of these 17 cities, only 7 have one airport serving the MSA, without an alternate one with lower costs: SLC, DEN, CLT, ATL, CVG, MSP and DTW, and 5 of these belong to DL.

You can't have everything: UA and AA have a better hub structure in more important cities (on the international side, UA lacks a MIA while AA lacks a SFO, while on the domestic side UA lacks a CLT and AA lacks a DEN), and that's why their hubs or cities are always seeing low cost expansion. On the other hand, DL has a worse hub structure, but that allows them to have more fortress hubs than their competitors and fly more mainline flights where AA and UA have to share their market with the LCCs and fly smaller planes.
 
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 27):
No one ever called CLE profitable. Go back and read the quotes carefully.

CLE was profitable and considered one of the most efficient hubs in the CO system. Sometimes revisionist history needs to be employed to make one's point and attempt to justify a decision based on other facts that are not public relations friendly...
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Rdh3e
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:10 pm

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 34):
CLE was profitable and considered one of the most efficient hubs in the CO system.

How do you know this? I went through the first 15 pages of google without a single company source saying that UA/CO was making money in CLE. Closest you'll find is Gordon prognosticating that CLE was growing therefore it must be profitable. He wasn't at the company anymore and likely was just trying to help the merger get through anyways.

Also, there were only 3 hubs "in the CO system" so being one of the most efficient doesn't mean anything.

[Edited 2014-03-19 11:11:47]
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:19 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
That aside, UA (and CO before them) were slow to catch on to the "bigger RJ" trend

Not really. UA was actually quite quick to catch on, as they stupidly junked about 100 737s that provided needed, higher yielding domestic short haul capacity. CO had an interesting scope clause, which allowed tons of 50 seat flying, but nothing over 50 seats on jets. If you remember, during the initial cross-fleeting after the merger, there were a bunch of CO routes that were switched to UAX in order to maintain scope.

So, CO was very late to the larger RJ game, but UA wasn't

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 19):

As a United 1-K who spends 100% of his time flying domestic routes, the seat-of-my-pants says E145s have it all over CR2s.

No question that the ERJ is MUCH more comfortable than the CR2. Its not even close.

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 26):
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 31):
Classic textbook case of frequency vs. comfort. There's no correct answer here.

Not an apples-to-apples comparison. Chicago is a much, much larger metro area and much stronger economically than Detroit.

Quoting mayor (Reply 29):
Shuttle American

Shuttle America...Alaskan...American West...SouthWest(ern)  
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jetblue1965
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:21 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 35):
Also, there were only 3 hubs "in the CO system" so being one of the most efficient doesn't mean anything.

3 mainland hubs ... there's also that GUM one that most have forgotten
 
jayunited
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:55 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 15):
Using ORD-LGA as an example, LGA is now a Delta hub and yet its service is all RJ to ORD. Where's the similar outrage?

I think the outrage is because ORd-LGA, BOS, DCA and other use to be all mainline and now there are a few RJ's in the mix. I personally don't see anything wrong with a few RJ's on these routes especially the E170 and once delivered the E175's customers don't seem to have a problem with those aircraft or even the CRJ700's. I think the 145's and the CRJ200's are the aircraft customers don't care for but UA is using these aircraft on some pretty long routes. Hopefully that will change with the arrival of the 175's.

The RJ phenomenon really took over on the s-UA side when s-UA decided to retire all 100 B737-300's without having a plan in place to replace those aircraft. So without having any mainline aircraft on order s-UA had no other option but to turn to UAX carriers and RJ's to pick up the slack. If there had been some type of plan or replacement aircraft on order I don't think UA would have the number of RJ's in our fleet that we do now. Now the problem is UA is replacing s-UA's B757's and although UA will start taking delivery of the E175 those are replacing some of the smaller 50 seater RJ's. UA still to this date has done nothing to address the 100 aircraft that were sent to the desert and replaced with RJ's and until UA address this issues we will continue to see higher use of RJ's when compared to DL, and AA.
 
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mbm3
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:59 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 35):
How do you know this? I went through the first 15 pages of google without a single company source saying that UA/CO was making money in CLE. Closest you'll find is Gordon prognosticating that CLE was growing therefore it must be profitable. He wasn't at the company anymore and likely was just trying to help the merger get through anyways.

Also, there were only 3 hubs "in the CO system" so being one of the most efficient doesn't mean anything.

Maybe 10% of the internet is indexed by Google my friend. My knowledge comes from direct conversations with a variety of sources, company and non-company related. Numbers an, of course, be twisted to show whatever outcome you'd like, but the premise that CLE was a huge money loser for a decade completely contradicts a number of public and non-public statements. This was a convenient story to cover up the fact that UA needed to park ERJs yesterday to improved their bottom line for investors, as well as their subcontractors inability to find staff to operate them.
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commavia
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:05 pm

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 39):
Maybe 10% of the internet is indexed by Google my friend. My knowledge comes from direct conversations with a variety of sources, company and non-company related. Numbers an, of course, be twisted to show whatever outcome you'd like, but the premise that CLE was a huge money loser for a decade completely contradicts a number of public and non-public statements. This was a convenient story to cover up the fact that UA needed to park ERJs yesterday to improved their bottom line for investors, as well as their subcontractors inability to find staff to operate them.

I'm skeptical. The key with CLE may not be profitability, but opportunity cost. While I remain highly doubtful that CLE was particularly profitable even on a standalone basis in recent years given its high reliance on 50-seat RJs with deteriorating economics, I am even more skeptical about whether CLE satisfied the opportunity cost of better allocation of United's resources. Given the near-complete overlap with other hubs, CLE needed to not only justify its existence based upon the individual profit or loss of a given flight or given schedule of flights, but also justify its existence based upon the profit or loss that could be made by simply catering to the same customers over existing hubs. It is by that second metric that I think the CLE hub really lived and, eventually, died.
 
tommy767
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:21 pm

I've read on FT that the plan is an RJ route with competition on it will go to a 2-class 175. If there is not any kind of competition (EG: EWR-OKC) expect the ERJ to continue flying the route.

It's rather sad actually. They are retiring 757s in large number and could be keeping them on in combination with the new 739 to pull down the ERJ numbers. Doesn't seem like they have any intention of doing so.

Oh well. Perhaps it's why UA isn't as profitable as analysts want them to be.
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atct
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:23 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 19):
are walks in the park on E145s.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. I used to do IAH-PIT and IAH-ORF frequently on the E145 and back in the 737-500 days, I would take the XR over the 735 (and CRJ obviously) anyday, unless the 735 was empty and an auto-upgrade was available.
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Rdh3e
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:37 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 37):
3 mainland hubs ... there's also that GUM one that most have forgotten

Going by T100 scheduled departures (ie mainline departures) for 2013, GUM was ranked #23 in the UA system, it would be far lower I suspect with UAX included:

1 IAH 64227
2 EWR 51826
3 ORD 50119
4 SFO 43094
5 DEN 34645
6 LAX 26776
7 IAD 23361
8 LAS 9809
9 BOS 9453
10 MCO 8888
11 SEA 8141
12 CLE 7621
13 SAN 6632
14 LGA 5960
15 DCA 5346
16 TPA 5143
17 SNA 5041
18 FLL 4770
19 PDX 4754
20 HNL 4574
21 LHR 4563
22 PHX 4447
23 GUM 4036
 
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mbm3
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:54 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 40):
While I remain highly doubtful that CLE was particularly profitable even on a standalone basis in recent years given its high reliance on 50-seat RJs with deteriorating economics, I am even more skeptical about whether CLE satisfied the opportunity cost of better allocation of United's resources.

Oh, I most certainly agree that CLE became a mess under the new UA. Heck, many things became a mess after the merger! But rather than simply be transparent and honest, Mr. Smisek chose to convey a story that simply was not based on fact, to the point it surprised most of the company. Why not simply say that the company needed to reduce cost by closing the smallest hub, along with the difficulty in finding pilots, the cost of ERJs, etc? The scorched earth tactics are mind boggling.
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tommy767
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:25 pm

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 44):
Oh, I most certainly agree that CLE became a mess under the new UA. Heck, many things became a mess after the merger! But rather than simply be transparent and honest, Mr. Smisek chose to convey a story that simply was not based on fact, to the point it surprised most of the company. Why not simply say that the company needed to reduce cost by closing the smallest hub, along with the difficulty in finding pilots, the cost of ERJs, etc? The scorched earth tactics are mind boggling.

CLE was definitely a goner under CO in the last few years: tons of props, RJs, cancelled expansion plans, very little mainline as recently as 2007-2008. Smisek just threw in the towel because it was easy for him to do so. With UA performing poorly in relation to the other carriers, it was an easy decision to close the hub.
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UA444
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:29 pm

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 34):

Jeff Smisek said outright that CLE hasn't been profitable in over a decade, which would mean it wasn't profitable when it was CO.
 
milemaster
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:34 pm

I flew a UA CRJ SFO-DFW 10 days ago and really regretted my booking decision.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:11 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 24):
ORD and EWR are not so grossly inferior (!) to DTW and MSP that UA couldn't run more 2-class RJs and mainline if it wanted to

As I illustrated above, they have 100 fewer large RJs than DL. They can't fly them if they don't have them.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 24):
is really a profit-maximizing strategy.

It most certainly is not, but it's the best they've got.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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Tigerguy
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RE: Why Does UA Use More RJ's Than The Other Carriers?

Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:50 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 41):
If there is not any kind of competition (EG: EWR-OKC) expect the ERJ to continue flying the route.

For the record, the E-170 will run the route (westbound only) on Tuesdays starting in May. How long that will last, I don't know. If it'll eventually be a daily upgauge once more E-Jets come in the fleet, I don't know. In this specific case, the larger jet will be welcome, but the 145 has been fine by me as well. Having flown that route in one direction or another multiple times, I can say that I had no complaints with it.

UA's one-way O&D chunk of the daily New York area-OKC passengers sits at 48.28. Working under the assumption that the lot of them are taking the nonstop over any connections, that's probably why the 145 is here. However, I assume they feel the demand is strong enough to finally see if we can support something a little bigger, even if it's just to rotate the plane through the system. I'd like to see us consistently fill the extra 20 seats; If we had a few more people busting down the doors to fly places, we wouldn't have to worry so much about inevitably being brought up in a thread regarding United's regional operations. Mind you, it's about the only time OKC ever gets mentioned here, so I take it as a badge of honor.   
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