Manston Could Close

seansasLCY · Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:29 pm

Things are not looking good at Manston. The owners are considering closing the airport.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26646985

TC957 · Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:19 pm

How is the KLM route doing ? If the local business community can't support a little F70 twice-daily route then they can't be surprised if the airport closes to commercial traffic. Every East Kent businessman that drives all the way to LHR for his long-haul flight is putting a nail in the coffin at MSE.

LN-KGL · Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:56 pm

The passenger numbers the three last months between Amsterdam and Manston
February 2014 = 3,686 passengers
January 2014 = 3,136 passengers
December 2013 = 3,968 passengers

Cabin factors if all flights were flown with Fokker 70.
February 2014 = 82.3%
January 2014 = 65.3%
December 2014 = 88.6%

Source: UK CAA

atct · Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:40 pm

Excuse my ignorance, I am a wee bit disconnected with Manston, but wouldn't something like an ATR on HOP! over to CDG or a Q400 to BRU be a little more economical? Again, I am nothing but an airliners.net chair warmer when it comes to fleet/route planning but it seems like a lot of money for 2 daily Fokker 70's to fly 160 miles.

PlymSpotter · Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:59 pm

Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 2):

Nowhere near that high I'm afraid. There are four daily flights, so the average load was 32pax in December for instance - Christmas aside as I'm not sure if the flights operated on the 25th.

Dan

babybus · Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:24 pm

Is it possible to close Manston? I thought it had of the role of being an emergency runway? I've used for an emergency once.

I guessed KLM wouldn't have the muscle to make such an odd route work. It might have worked for a low cost carrier, but even then I'm not so sure.

shamrock604 · Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:41 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 5):
I guessed KLM wouldn't have the muscle to make such an odd route work. It might have worked for a low cost carrier, but even then I'm not so sure.

If KLM doesnt have the muscle, with their mass of connecting options, and a highly attractive business and leisure destination in Amsterdam - then quite honestly, no one has.

Vasu · Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:52 pm

Very sad... I've always thought the charter airlines should use Manston... And I'm genuinely surprised that Ryanair never gave it a go!

MACDADDY · Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:10 pm

There are only 2 flights showing in the KLM system Dan, so not sure where the 4 flight per day figure comes from. The demand does exist in Kent, but it needs a price point that will stimulate travel. EUjet loads were ok towards the end of its life, with places like EDI, AGP and I think even AMS were around 65% on a Fokker 100. With the lower cost of say an ERJ175/190 a limited service could work, or even a 319 if you tried a W pattern with an LGW/SEN/STN based aircraft.

Mac

PlymSpotter · Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:21 pm

Quoting MACDADDY (Reply 8):
There are only 2 flights showing in the KLM system Dan, so not sure where the 4 flight per day figure comes from.

What goes one way generally goes the other.

There is a morning and evening rotation, so four flights in total offering 320 seats a day.

Dan

shamrock604 · Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:39 pm

Quoting MACDADDY (Reply 8):
EUjet loads were ok towards the end of its life, with places like EDI, AGP and I think even AMS were around 65% on a Fokker 100

The loads in the last two months were very good - but mainly on leisure like AGP, FAO etc.

AMS never got near 65% - it went from thrice daily, to twice and finally to once. Rarely over 35 pax on board.

Flybe also tried EDI and MAN - and quickly retreated.

MACDADDY · Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:09 am

Is that round trip, ie total pax? The comment said AMS to MSE so. I assumed that was the total pax on a one way basis? Happy to be corrected, shame if true. I saw the erj on the route a couple of times when I was working down there, although that was with a Ble Panorama b767 plane to BWN! This was during the BA A380 trials, so it looked like a proper airport!

I did a sub for EUJet with an A320 and went to AGP on it, both legs were full, but I'm sure the yield wasn't so good! Amazed AMS was so bad, I know the CDG and EDI went to an airlinair atr42. The only time I ev laid to fly was MSE-MAD-MSE with a lead in fare of just £37 total, the pax load was 7 out 8 back so no surprise when that route was closed!

Domestic from MSE seems to be a non starter. Perhaps some winter charter to SZG, CMF etc.. And summer to FAO, AGP etc... Will be the only way to save the airport? Even the freight side has cut back, our cargo guys did an AN.12 recently but that's about it!

Shame

shamrock604 · Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:40 am

Quoting MACDADDY (Reply 11):
I did a sub for EUJet with an A320 and went to AGP on it, both legs were full, but I'm sure the yield wasn't so good! Amazed AMS was so bad, I know the CDG and EDI went to an airlinair atr42. The only time I ev laid to fly was MSE-MAD-MSE with a lead in fare of just £37 total, the pax load was 7 out 8 back so no surprise when that route was closed!

AGP was doing nicely at the end, as were other sun routes. But bear in mind, "the end" was high summer - winter would surely have been difficult again.

EDI wasnt a bad route for EUJ either, and I was surprised Flybe didnt manage to make it work.

EnviableOne · Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:05 am

BE don't seem to be able to make much work at the minute, they just laid off staff and there about to lose NCL-LGW as U2 are starting at half their price.

MSE s bigest problem is it has no decent transport links and not much in the way of catchment.

for there Business plan to work, it would have needed HSR from London and Major Road upgrades

vv701 · Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:37 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 5):
Is it possible to close Manston? I thought it had of the role of being an emergency runway?

There are nine of possible alternatives to MSE within 100 miles:

MSE-SEN is 32 miles great circle
MSE-LCY is 57 miles
MSE-BQH is also 57 miles
MSE-STN is 61 miles
MSE-LGW is 68 miles
MSE-NHT is 78 miles
MSE-LHR is 79 miles
MSE-LTN is 82 miles
MSE-FAB is 92 miles

The distances of MSE from those in the above list that claim to be "London" airports and are recognised as such by the CAA, namely SEN, LCY, STN, LGW, LHR and LTN make MSEs geographic position difficult in terms of catchment area. Indeed its geographic position on the eastern tip of the Kent peninsula is severely limiting. It has the English Channel to its south and east. It has the Thames Estuary to its north. And to its west is LGW that, according to the AA, is only 78 miles and 95 minutes drive away. So the MSE catchment area is very small. And with just two commercial rotations a day . . .

Finally there might be an issue of costs. Although BA have recently carried out some training flights from MSE they seem to prefer both CHR and XCR in France. They certainly use these two airports much more frequently for 320, 380 and 787 training. With the additional fuel cost for the flights to and from LHR (CHR is 334 miles from LHR) this could be an issue of airport operating charges. After all MSE is hardly that busy.

factsonly · Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:50 pm

It is understood the airport has been suffering losses of £10,000 a day under its new owner Scottish businesswoman Ann Gloag, who co-founded the Stagecoach Group. She bought Manston Airport for £1 last year.

Talks with Ryanair and further cargo carriers over W13/14 collapsed.

A MANSTON airport employee, who asked not to be named, said staff have been told the site will shut in 45 days. They said: “We were told this morning, it came as a huge shock. “We have been told that after 45 days it will be closing, but up until then it is business as usual but it’s hard to put your heart into it at the moment.”

KLM says it will wait until the employee consultation at Manston Airport is complete before issuing a formal statement. A spokesperson for KLM said: "We have no statement at the moment- we are going to wait for the consultation to take place as the situation is currently not in our hands."

www.thanetgazette.co.uk

vv701 · Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:11 pm

Quoting MACDADDY (Reply 11):
The comment said AMS to MSE

No the comment actually says:

Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 2):
between Amsterdam and Manston

The source identified for the data associated to the above, the CAA web site, only publishes the total passenger numbers flying between two airports. It has never separated the numbers flying from A to B from those flying from B to A.

Viscount724 · Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:01 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 9):
Quoting MACDADDY (Reply 8):
There are only 2 flights showing in the KLM system Dan, so not sure where the 4 flight per day figure comes from.

What goes one way generally goes the other.

Airport traffic statistics count both arriving and departing passengers in total passenger data, and movement statistics count both takeoffs and landings.

Captaindoony · Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:18 pm

MSE-AMS flights no longer bookable on klm.com as of 09 Apr 14

bennett123 · Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:47 pm

The part that puzzles me is this;

Did the new owners massively mis calculate here. Alternatively, do they have other, (non aviation) plans for Manston.

nighthawk · Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:49 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 19):
Did the new owners massively mis calculate here. Alternatively, do they have other, (non aviation) plans for Manston.

I suspect they have alternative plans for Manston. Surely they knew the state of affairs when they took over the airport, and must have known how much money it was losing. They would be foolish if they thought they could come in and turn the airport around in just 6 months, these things can take years!

Additionally, the fact they are closing the airport may be significant. I would have expected them to keep going until the money runs out, then declare bankruptcy rather than close voluntarily. At least then it would fall into someone elses hands via the administrators, and could remain open. How easy is it to re-open an airfield once it has been closed and it's licenses surrendered? Would it need to be re-certified by the CAA?

So now they remain as owners, but all they own is a large plot of land, rather than a licensed airfield.

offloaded · Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:41 am

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 20):

How many 10,000s of new houses has the UK govt says needs to be built? You may find that the land is more valuable other than for use as an airfield. That's what they did with the small aerodrome that used to be in Vilamoura (Algarve, Portugal); it is now houses and a golf course. Of course MSE is much bigger than Vilamoura but...

bjorn14 · Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:03 pm

I personally think this was the plan all along. It was a real estate investment. Think Plymouth.

richcandy · Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:54 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 21):
How many 10,000s of new houses has the UK govt says needs to be built? You may find that the land is more valuable other than for use as an airfield. That's what they did with the small aerodrome that used to be in Vilamoura (Algarve, Portugal); it is now houses and a golf course. Of course MSE is much bigger than Vilamoura but...

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 22):
I personally think this was the plan all along. It was a real estate investment. Think Plymouth.

When the current owners bought Manson didn't they agree to take on the debit of the previous owner?

If they wanted to build houses wouldn't it of been cheaper to just buy a site. This is not the most populated part of the South east and London is around 2 hrs away by regular train or 1:15 by high speed.

bennett123 · Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:09 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26662484

Whilst they are going through the motions, reply 18 suggests that it is a foregone conclusion.

LF were low enough already, if they suddenly got a reprieve at this stage, it will drop further, as most folk wanting to fly to AMS from the SE will have made alternative plans already.

bennett123 · Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:00 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26728679

Hopefully, this is a positive development.

Hopefully, there will be more details soon.

gkirk · Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:18 pm

KLM dropping Manston from 9th April

YVRLTN · Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:49 am

Quoting MACDADDY (Reply 11):
Even the freight side has cut back,

What freight operations are there since the collapse of MK? Anything scheduled or just one off charters?

Quoting factsonly (Reply 15):
Talks with Ryanair and further cargo carriers over W13/14 collapsed.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 6):
If KLM doesnt have the muscle, with their mass of connecting options, and a highly attractive business and leisure destination in Amsterdam - then quite honestly, no one has.

If FR are not interested and cant even make somewhere like ALC work on a W route and KL cant make it work, there does indeed seem little hope for MSE, though I do think the F70 is the wrong aircraft, may do better if they still had the F50's or even the SF34. Maybe Cityjet to CDG would be better.

Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 13):
MSE s bigest problem is it has no decent transport links and not much in the way of catchment.

I flew from MSE in the EUjet days. It really is not as bad as people think, the M2 past the M25 is a good road. Being able to park outside the terminal and without crowds of people & the sheer size of LGW & LHR and volumes of people at baggage reclaim etc greatly reduces your time getting to and from your vehicle and onto the road and gives you a good head start. You could be at the M25 junction before you have even got to your car at LGW. I have left over 8 years ago, but has MSE really marketed themselves and this convenience that much?

Is there still a lot of GA at MSE? I remember a couple of flight schools used to be based there.

richcandy · Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:35 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 27):
If FR are not interested and cant even make somewhere like ALC work on a W route and KL cant make it work, there does indeed seem little hope for MSE, though I do think the F70 is the wrong aircraft, may do better if they still had the F50's or even the SF34. Maybe Cityjet to CDG would be better.

Do we know if KLM are cancelling their services from Manston because they want to due to poor passenger numbers. Or is it because they have to due to the possible closure of the airport? On another site it states "Whether this service will continue is pending on the 45-day consultation regarding the possible closure of the airport". However I can't find anything official from KLM.

I am not sure that Paris would work from Manston. Eurostar operate services from Ashford to Paris with a journey time of around 2 hrs and Brussels is 1hr 40 by train.

The issue with Manston is catchment area. Yes you could attract some people from London, but London is 75 miles away and there are closer airport options. Locally you are not in the most populated part of the south east. The biggest city in the area is Canterbury and Manston is by far the closest airport at 13 miles away. However its got just one route to AMS (with onward connections). The alternative is LGW at 65 miles away with lots of airlines and lots of routes, so much more choice.

Alex

factsonly · Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:44 am

Quoting richcandy (Reply 28):
Do we know if KLM are cancelling their services from Manston because they want to due to poor passenger numbers. Or is it because they have to due to the possible closure of the airport? On another site it states "Whether this service will continue is pending on the 45-day consultation regarding the possible closure of the airport". However I can't find anything official from KLM.

KLM was selling MSE-AMS 2x daily all Summer 2014. The airline suddenly closed reservations from April 9, 2014 following the announcement of the closure of MSE last week.

bennett123 · Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:24 pm

Have there been any new developments.

bennett123 · Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:12 pm

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26851061

Apparently, the mystery bidder has pulled out. No reason is given.

It sounds as if Thanet have given up on an Airport operator and are looking for alternatives.

FlyingHollander · Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:08 pm

Quoting richcandy (Reply 28):
Do we know if KLM are cancelling their services from Manston because they want to due to poor passenger numbers. Or is it because they have to due to the possible closure of the airport?

According to: http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nl-NL...t_vluchtuitvoering_naar_Manston_op (Dutch only), KLM says the cancellation is temporary. Cityhopper claims they can't garantee KLM passengers that their flights will be carried out.

bennett123 · Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:18 pm

In what sense is it temporary.

Do they envisage MSE operating beyond 9th April?.

FlyingHollander · Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:38 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 33):
In what sense is it temporary.

I'm asking myself the same thing. The article isnn't very clear about that. The website is a very reliable source though.

I think KLM wants the assurance that they won't have to dissappoint passengers by cancelling all AMS-MSE vv flights on short notice. As things are looking at the moment, I think it is unlikely that KLM will return in the (near) future.

[Edited 2014-04-02 13:39:31]

SCQ83 · Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:53 am

Quoting richcandy (Reply 23):
When the current owners bought Manson didn't they agree to take on the debit of the previous owner?

If they wanted to build houses wouldn't it of been cheaper to just buy a site. This is not the most populated part of the South east and London is around 2 hrs away by regular train or 1:15 by high speed.

Wait and see... it is not that close to London but it is an scenic and looked-after area around (Margate, Ramsgate).

vv701 · Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:23 am

Quoting richcandy (Reply 23):
When the current owners bought Manson didn't they agree to take on the debit of the previous owner?

Yes. Ann Gloag bought the debt and the airport for £1. This was almost a mirror image of what happened in November 1992 when BA purchased Dan Air and its debts for the same, nominal amount. However the deal Gloag struck with the previous MSE owners, the New Zealand investor, Infratil (who also own and are trying to sell PIK), required her to invest £350,000 in MSE before last November.

Bongodog1964 · Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:04 pm

Quoting richcandy (Reply 23):
If they wanted to build houses wouldn't it of been cheaper to just buy a site. This is not the most populated part of the South east and London is around 2 hrs away by regular train or 1:15 by high speed.

Redundant airfields are categorised as "brownfield land" just the same as a former factory site or similar, even if the vast majority of the land area is grass and has never been concreted over. There is a presumption in planning law that development is encouraged on brownfield land and all such sites should be developed prior to any agricultural land being taken. Hence its attractiveness to speculators.
In my locality near Cambridge we will lose four former airfields to housing in the next decade, Oakington, Alconbury, Waterbeach and Bourn.

bennett123 · Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:00 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26872083

Latest update.

bennett123 · Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:59 pm

IMO, the key date is 10th April, not 11th May.

Once KLM stop their service, I do not see them re starting in a hurry.

Not sure what Govt help they are looking for, or what business plan UNITE will come up with.

Personally, it seems that as a Brownfield site, that housing is the most likely option.

factsonly · Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:03 pm

Interestingly KLM continues to use MSE for training flights:

- April 5, 2014: KLM Cityhopper Fokker 70 PH-KZM positioned Amsterdam – Manston as KL9971 to operate training circuits. The aircraft returned early in the afternoon as KL9972.

factsonly · Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:32 am

April 9, 2014 - One historic moment for Kent?

The last ever scheduled passenger flight to/from Manston Airport:

- arr. 10:00 - Manston - KL 1519 - KLM Royal Dutch Airlines - Fokker 70
- dep. 10:35 - Manston - KL 1520 - KLM Royal Dutch Airlines - Fokker 70

Viscount724 · Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:24 am

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 32):
Quoting richcandy (Reply 28):
Do we know if KLM are cancelling their services from Manston because they want to due to poor passenger numbers. Or is it because they have to due to the possible closure of the airport?

According to: http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nl-NL...t_vluchtuitvoering_naar_Manston_op (Dutch only), KLM says the cancellation is temporary. Cityhopper claims they can't garantee KLM passengers that their flights will be carried out.

English press release dated March 25 on KLM website:

From 10 April, KLM Cityhopper as an operating airline for KLM is suspending flights between Amsterdam and Manston (Kent, UK). The continuous uncertainty surrounding the future of the airport means KLM Cityhopper is unable to guarantee that flights to serve KLM-passengers can be operated. The airport is currently holding a consultation over the possible closure of Manston (Kent).

A KLM rebooking policy is in effect for passengers who are currently booked to travel between Amsterdam and Manston on or after 10 April. KLM will offer these passengers alternative flights via London Heathrow. It is currently not possible to book flights to or from Manston after April 9th 2014.

KLM Cityhopper launched a twice-daily Fokker 70 service to Manston in the summer of 2013.

Vasu · Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:12 am

Well that's it now... last KLM flight left Manston at 10:35 this morning

Eurohub · Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:56 am

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 34):
I think KLM wants the assurance that they won't have to dissappoint passengers by cancelling all AMS-MSE vv flights on short notice. As things are looking at the moment, I think it is unlikely that KLM will return in the (near) future.

The consultation exercise that MSE have embarked upon is just a box-ticking exercise required under UK law in that employers have to consult with their employees for a set time period (30 or 45 days) before the decision to make people redundant is finalised.

In reality, of course, the final decision has already been taken to close the airport and make the staff redundant but the owners have to follow the rules and embark on this consultation exercise. It's meaningless really and just prolongs the situation for the specified number of days.

Regards,
Eurohub

bennett123 · Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:26 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26977317

Technically, there is still hope.

However, this statement from KLM Cityhopper managing director, Boet Kreiken, in Air Transport World that it was impossible to do "business in a shaky environment".

"Now it is game over; we will redeploy the aircraft. We are gone."

Semms to indicate that it is all over.

Unite seem to think that there are viable solutions, but without KLM it is hard to see what these are. Clearly there is some scope with cargo, but that already existed.

bennett123 · Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:26 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-27003462

More bad news.

Vasu · Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:32 am

With the new passenger terminal being built at Lydd, I'm wondering what advantages Lydd has over Manston? Is it better connected? Does it have a better catchment area?

bennett123 · Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:56 am

I was wondering the same myself.

Clearly not runway length, I do not anticipate a380/b747 there.

What airline/aircraft is newmarket going to use?.

Vasu · Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:21 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 48):

I think they've used Europe Airport in the past... Not sure about this year though.

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