175erj
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Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:26 pm

Just planning a trip...and wondering why the only US carrier to fly into Berlin/TXL is United, and that's only from Newark.

Why so little US carrier presence at TXL?
 
Burkhard
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:36 pm

Because there is not much market. Berlin is of no economic importance compared to about a dozen other cities in Germany.
 
DDR
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:06 pm

But it is a great place to visit for history!
 
175erj
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:21 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 1):
Quoting DDR (Reply 2):

Agreed, tourism alone should be able to fill flights...at least one daily from ATL on DL.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:37 pm

Quoting 175erj (Reply 3):


Agreed, tourism alone should be able to fill flights...at least one daily from ATL on DL.

If it can't pull it's weight in yields, it ain't happening on a US carrier. MAYBE AA with the Air Berlin code-share but AA would be wise to let AB to fly the routes.
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Byrdluvs747
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:47 pm

Didnt AA have plans for BER not too long ago? I thought the airport fiasco put a damper on those plans.
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coachclass
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:50 pm

When BER fully opens I believe that DL may return, flying again from JFK with a B767. BER will offer lots of connecting flights to Eastern Europe and the Middle East.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:57 pm

Quoting 175erj (Reply 3):
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 1):
Quoting DDR (Reply 2):

Agreed, tourism alone should be able to fill flights...at least one daily from ATL on DL.

Filling flights is easy. Making a profit is more difficult. If they have to rely on low-yield tourist traffic, there are probably many other markets where the aircraft can be used much more profitably.
 
na
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:57 pm

If the new airport is operational I am sure some more carriers will fly to Berlin, one or two US majors included. Berlin just sees much less business travel than Frankfurt an Munich so its of less importance. As someone said before as a business city Berlin is less important than at least 5 other cities, namely the Frankfurt, Munich, Hamburg, Stuttgart and Rhine/Ruhr (meaning Düsseldorf, Cologne, Essen etc) regions.
Also add that intercontinental travellers who visit Berlin also visit other places in Germany or Europe, so for most its not so important if Berlin is the airport to fly to.
 
IADLHR
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:56 am

Dont I wish that there was a IAD-TXL-IAD like there was for short time in 2001. I think with the diplomatic traffice etc that there might be a market IAD-TXL-IAD or IAD-BER-IAD when BER finally opens. I think Berlin is very glaring mission in UA "Capital to Capital" service they talk about.

Maybe the 787 is the right size aircraft for the market. I dont know. I still think that someday down the road this service will happen.
 
ont 737
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:23 am

I flew LH IAD-TXL-IAD back in 2001. They operated it with a 340. Paid ~$300 for the round trip.

I then flew AA IAD-LAX back home. That was in August of 2011. One month later and I could have been on the plane that hit the Pentagon.

[Edited 2014-03-20 20:26:16]
 
holzmann
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:25 am

I could easily fill 150 seats per year doing IAD-TXL-IAD.
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IADLHR
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:32 am

Quoting Reply 11):
flew LH IAD-TXL-IAD back in 2001. They operated it with a 340. Paid ~$300 for the round trip.

I then flew AA IAD-LAX back home. That was in August of 2011. One month later and I could have been on the plane that hit the Pentagon.

I was on LH TXL-IAD on 9-11. We were approaching Canada and we turned around and went back to TXL with a refueling stop in SNN. Spent 5 nights in Berlin waiting for flights to resume and when they did I was on the last TXL-IAD flight before it was dropped.

I have made a number of trips to Berlin ex JFK-TXL on DL. They dropped TXL--what a bummer.
 
Beatyair
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:46 am

This is the reason for Alliances and Code Sharing. Most international airlines fly into one or two cities with in a country and then the local airline takes you from there. In Germanys case, Frankfuit and Munich are the places to land for most airlines.
Brazil - San Paulo
England - London, Manchester
Canada - Toronto Vancouver or Montreal
France - Paris
Japan - Tokyo (Narita)
Italy - Rome
 
PanHAM
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:03 am

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 6):
connecting flights to Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

That would be quite a detour, especially to the Middle east.

Berlin has mainly low yield traffic, the mix to opeate a viable hub is still not given. Beside, the Location is remote and cannot compete with the more Center Locations like FRA MUC DUS
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catiii
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:12 am

Quoting 175erj (Reply 3):

Tourism alone usually doesn't equate to profits for longhaul intl flying at a global carrier.
 
heathrow
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:17 am

Quoting beatyair (Reply 14):
Canada - Toronto Vancouver or Montreal

You can add YOW and I beleve also YYC to that list.
 
SurfandSnow
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:17 am

Berlin is just close enough to New York for 757 service to be possible. Otherwise, even the UA service probably wouldn't exist. It's certainly no coincidence that secondary European markets within 757 range like BHX and HAM have nonstop transatlantic services while those outside of it like BUD and OTP do not. Even some fairly notable European cities like VIE and WAW lack any kind of U.S. carrier service - IMO at least in part because the 757 can't serve them (nonstop in both directions, anyway).

There are only 4, soon to be 3, U.S. carriers that fly transatlantic.

AA - Serves TXL via alliance partner codeshares, including AB's nonstop JFK/MIA/ORD-TXL flights

DL - Served TXL from JFK until 2011, now serves TXL via alliance partner codeshares

UA - Inherited CO's established EWR-TXL route, likely capitalizes on LH/Star Alliance FFers in the Berlin area to support the flight.

US - Traditionally served TXL via Star Alliance codeshares (i.e. LH, UA), now can offer similar options via oneworld partners until it is completely folded into AA

Don't discount AB's transatlantic TXL services. DL ended its TXL service not long after AB began flying transatlantic from its TXL hub...
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imagoagnitio
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:18 am

Quoting 175erj (Thread starter):

Where would you park the Nimitz, Carl Vinson or Abraham Lincoln?  
 
PanHAM
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:49 am

Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 19):
Where would you park the Nimitz, Carl Vinson or Abraham Lincoln?

Rostock would be an Option but they might not fit underneath that Danish Bridge. Better choice would be Wilhelmshaven, that is where the Kaiser parked such assets. There's enough water under the keel.
   
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imant
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:02 am

It might change as soon as BER opens and will be a main HUB option. Right now there would not be much connecting feeding.
 
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:18 am

Quoting imant (Reply 21):
It might change as soon as BER opens and will be a main HUB option. Right now there would not be much connecting feeding.

Only for AA and possibly UA if LH dramatically increases their Berlin presence with BER. DL would be at a disadvantage for BER connections, but might benefit from increased O&D on the Berlin side once the airport grows.

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txlbased
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:59 am

Its time to open the BER. TXL is at it's maximum. Passenger numbers increase every year at around 5 - 8%, in 2013 we had 19,6m pax. Thats quite a lot if imagined that the capacity of terminals is only at 11m.

No worries, once the BER opens, more/new carriers will (again) fly to Berlin.
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PanHAM
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:59 am

Quoting txlbased (Reply 23):
Its time to open the BER

we can start that again. Opening BER won't Change much as it would be at capacity when it opens. Even keeping the SXF terminal operational would be a drop on a hot stove.

New carriers to Berlin would worsen the Situation. Even more, the Intention of co-owner Brandenburg to castrate BER opening hours to 06h00 am 22h00 would squeeze 30 Million Pax p.a. into just 16 hours.

BTW, right now, 4% of the new terminal, apron and runway are reaady for final inspection before going into service.
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mjoelnir
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:39 pm

I think the perception of Berlin is a bit wrong here. There are more industries in Berlin than many believe here and as the capital city of Germany the traveling officials are not so few.
With together, TXL & SXF, Berlin is number three in Germany with over 26 Mill passengers and most of them O&D.
TXL is already slot restricted and SXF does not seem to be popular with the airlines.

IMO the main problem is BER. That development has been a fiasco. If that airport would not have been late, we would see increased passenger numbers and the use of BER as a hub going to central and eastern European countries.
And we would have seen an increase in new airlines, perhaps most of the big USA airlines between them.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
we can start that again. Opening BER won't Change much as it would be at capacity when it opens. Even keeping the SXF terminal operational would be a drop on a hot stove.

All the same how restricted BER would be, it will be less restrictive than TXL. BER is planned for 30 Mill passengers a year, quite a bit more than DUS and the official capacity of TXL is 12 Mill and operating at 19 Mill. BER will have two runways being able to operate fully independent from each other and there is space for further on terminals. The two runways should be okay for up to 50 Mill passengers. The positioning of the two runways in TXL defines that they can not be operated independently from each other, giving not much more possibilities than only one runway.
As I understand it, will the old terminal be used for government flights and general aviation.
 
peachair
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:30 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 18):
DL - Served TXL from JFK until 2011, now serves TXL via alliance partner codeshares

DL also served ATL-TXL for a short time, I have seen the inaugural certificate
 
Ryanair01
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:06 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 26):
I think the perception of Berlin is a bit wrong here

I totally agree. I used to do a lot of business in Berlin. There's not too much in the way of manufacturing, but there a few large HQs, the Federal Government and a significant media/creative industry. However the main reasons an American Businessperson would be visiting Germany are probably related to either banking or manufacture, neither of which are big in Berlin.

Looking back at the history it must have been hard to imagine a day when no US airlines fly to Berlin!
 
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:47 pm

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 6):

When BER fully opens I believe that DL may return, flying again from JFK with a B767. BER will offer lots of connecting flights to Eastern Europe and the Middle East.


This is an american fantasy.

Just because it looks ideal on a map doesn't make it so !

Berlin has crap yields period.

In the case of Delta in particular why would you route any connections through Berlin and onto either a competitor, off to a flexible fares carrier or at best an interline when you can continue to route passengers over Amsterdam where CSA and KLM as well as AZ and currently SU will get you east.

As for Air Berlin i've previously pointed out they serve just three Polish and three Russian points east of Berlin and one of them Kaliningrad requires special VISAs for many foreigners !

It NOT going to be a hub and spoke centre of any significance.
 
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ua900
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:31 pm

As others have said, the 757 is the only plane that can profitably serve TXL on a year round basis. For US carriers, namely UA and AA, to offer meaningful service would require LH expanding Berlin presence once BER goes online and for AB to stop flying to MIA/ORD/JFK/LAX.

When LH started 4U with a hub at TXL it was basically a sign of appreciation of BER progress stalling and a clear demonstration of how LH's view of Berlin has evolved. BER would no longer be a potential hub for LH since it was just made a hub for 4U. For *A elites there is zero incentive to step aboard 4U planes. They'd be more likely to use other *A carriers or connect on LH via FRA or MUC even on the shortest dumbest routes imaginable since 4U doesn't give them miles, lounge access, baggage or any other type of *A recognition.

As for AA, they will wait and see what EY does to AB and eventually have to make a decision on whether to expand in Germany should AB exit oneWorld when becoming EY Regional. AB has done a great job in a low-yield market, I hope they make it and pull through by finding a strategy that pays the bills. They used the scare LH and give them a run for their money, but now with 4U on the horizon it seems very though for AB to defend their main base at TXL/BER.

I doubt we'll see DL back on a 767, maybe a 787 in high density layout but AMS and PRG are much better places for DL due to KL and CZ presence there. And UA won't ever run a 787 to either TXL or BER since it's too premium heavy. They can barely fill the F cabin on the sCO 752 as it is and 4U isn't suitable for premium connecting traffic.
2020: DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | IAH | LAX | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SFO | TXL
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:20 pm

Quoting heathrow (Reply 17):
Quoting beatyair (Reply 14):
Canada - Toronto Vancouver or Montreal

You can add YOW and I beleve also YYC to that list.

The reply you referred to said "most international airlines fly into one or two cities within a country". With the addition of Montreal to Toronto and Vancouver, those 3 must account for well over 90% of all longhaul international service from Canada, although 4 other airports have limited service.
 
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pwm2txlhopper
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:56 am

Quoting peachair (Reply 27):

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 18):
DL - Served TXL from JFK until 2011, now serves TXL via alliance partner codeshares

DL also served ATL-TXL for a short time, I have seen the inaugural certificate

Incorrect. I'm not sure what you remember seeing, but DL has only operated to TXL from JFK. (Trans-Atlantic speaking) The first time, early 1990s, it was a route acquired from Pan Am. It was dropped, and then brought back by DL around 2004-05. Then, suspended again a while back.

I used the flight several times when it was reintroduced. Was sorry to see it suspended.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:42 am

Quoting heathrow (Reply 17):
You can add YOW and I beleve also YYC to that list.

YYC is most definitely an international gateway.

AFAIK -- YOW and YEG only receive a few international AC and scheduled chartered flights.
 
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mats
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:58 am

Berlin is one of my favorite places in the world, but it's not yet a solid aviation market. Tegel aid small, and it's not designed as a hub. When the new airport opens, maybe new opportunities will arise.

In 1992, I flew same-plane one-stop on Lufthansa to Newark via Hamburg on an A310-300.

The other option was a United 727 to Heathrow.

At the same time, there was a TWA flight via Copenhagen, and American had just announced fits new 767 service to Chicago. Air Canada had also announced it's plans to fly from Schönefeld to Toronto.

Now it's just United and Air Berlin.

But the Lufthansa-United relationship is so solid in Frankfurt and Munich that the connection really isn't so bad. And I like the pmCO 757s in BusinessFirst, so there's still a good option to Newark.
 
IADLHR
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:08 am

Quoting mats (Reply 34):
At the same time, there was a TWA flight via Copenhagen, and American had just announced fits new 767 service to Chicago. Air Canada had also announced it's plans to fly from Schönefeld to Toronto.

Also around 1993 there was TW same plane service TXL-CDG-IAD-CDG-TXL that was really convenient too.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:35 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 35):
Also around 1993 there was TW same plane service TXL-CDG-IAD-CDG-TXL that was really convenient too.

Convenient doesn't always equal profitable.
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icarus75
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:49 am

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 18):
Otherwise, even the UA service probably wouldn't exist

Was at TXL on March, 13th and saw a UA 757 ready for departure (leaving the gate) around 1000am.
Flying is amazing!
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:56 am

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 18):
Berlin is just close enough to New York for 757 service to be possible. Otherwise, even the UA service probably wouldn't exist. It's certainly no coincidence that secondary European markets within 757 range like BHX and HAM have nonstop transatlantic services while those outside of it like BUD and OTP do not.

Why would it have to be a 757 ?
 
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CALTECH
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:36 pm

Quoting icarus75 (Reply 37):
Was at TXL on March, 13th and saw a UA 757 ready for departure (leaving the gate) around 1000am.

Title is misleading and Continental, now United, has had service to Berlin since 2005.

http://www.travelvideo.tv/news/airli...etween-new-york-and-berlin-germany

"Continental Airlines (NYSE:CAL) , the world’s sixth largest airline and the OAG Airline of the Year for both 2005 and 2004, tomorrow will inaugurate nonstop flights from its New York hub at Newark Liberty International Airport to Berlin/Tegel, Germany. This latest route makes Continental the leading U.S. carrier in terms of cities served across the Atlantic, bringing the total to 24 in 13 countries."

Plus, Nimitz class carriers can't navigate the canals and shallow rivers of northern Germany.
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mjoelnir
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:49 pm

IMO the perception of Berlin is wrong. As an industrial city Berlin does no rival any of the main areas in West Germany today, but those West German areas have few rivals in the world anyway.
But still, Berlin is the centre for everything connected to rail in Germany. You have the headquarters of Deutsche Bahn AG, there is Siemens Mobility and you have the European Headquarters of Bombardier. BMW has their motor cycle production and there are car components manufacturers. Just south of Berlin RR produces jet engines.
You have big research university's in Berlin, 31 university's and colleges, about 160,000 students. There are research institutes unconnected to the university's, with about 50,000 personal, Fraunhofer, Max-Planck, Helmholtz and Leibniz, each have several institutes. Berlin has a fast growing informatics sector. It is the area in Germany with the highest number of start up companies. As a congress, exhibition and convention centre Berlin is #4 in the World.

The two Berlin Airports together manage 26 Mill Passengers nearly all of it O&D. There is of course a lot of tourism traffic looking for cheap flights.
TXL is already far above its capacity limit, it is build for 12 Mill and has 19 Mill passengers.
SXF is restricted by the construction fiasco called BER.
The most pax to and from Berlin are from and to FRA, MUC, CGN and DUS. Apart from government officials from Bonn, most of that traffic I expect to be transfers in FRA, MUC and DUS. Most of the inter German traffic to Berlin is coming through rail, bus and car, as few cities in Germany are as well connected by rail and road.

I am still of the opinion that if BER opens one day, the picture will change a lot. It will be straight away #3 in Germany in pax, perhaps #2 in O&D. BER will draw more passengers from the wider area around Berlin, as it will be easily reached by rail and road. It could draw more freight traffic to Berlin.
The main question will be after BER opens, how fast will its capacity of around 30 Mill passengers a year be too small and when it has to be expanded.
It is difficult to look at the crystal ball and judge if USA airlines will fly more to Berlin in the future, but being right in the middle of Europe, near to areas with a faster economic growth than the average of Europe, I imagine a growing importance of Berlin as a destination and perhaps in the future for transit.
 
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ua900
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:33 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 41):
IMO the perception of Berlin is wrong. As an industrial city Berlin does no rival any of the main areas in West Germany today, but those West German areas have few rivals in the world anyway.
But still, Berlin is the centre for everything connected to rail in Germany. You have the headquarters of Deutsche Bahn AG, there is Siemens Mobility and you have the European Headquarters of Bombardier. BMW has their motor cycle production and there are car components manufacturers. Just south of Berlin RR produces jet engines.
You have big research university's in Berlin, 31 university's and colleges, about 160,000 students. There are research institutes unconnected to the university's, with about 50,000 personal, Fraunhofer, Max-Planck, Helmholtz and Leibniz, each have several institutes. Berlin has a fast growing informatics sector. It is the area in Germany with the highest number of start up companies. As a congress, exhibition and convention centre Berlin is #4 in the World.

DB personnel take trains for the most part. Siemens, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Rolls Royce have smallish branches in Berlin, so perhaps some premium traffic from them. Tons of university students and research, but most of these don't even have the budget to fly on discounted J tickets. Start-up people tend to take trains or Y seats. Congress and convention are big, but that's mostly intra-European traffic, not much of a factor for US carriers thinking about direct service. If Berlin continues to grow over time, there will be premium demand again, but near term it just doesn't exist.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 41):
Most of the inter German traffic to Berlin is coming through rail, bus and car, as few cities in Germany are as well connected by rail and road.

  

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 41):
The two Berlin Airports together manage 26 Mill Passengers nearly all of it O&D. There is of course a lot of tourism traffic looking for cheap flights.
TXL is already far above its capacity limit, it is build for 12 Mill and has 19 Mill passengers.
SXF is restricted by the construction fiasco called BER.
The most pax to and from Berlin are from and to FRA, MUC, CGN and DUS. Apart from government officials from Bonn, most of that traffic I expect to be transfers in FRA, MUC and DUS. Most of the inter German traffic to Berlin is coming through rail, bus and car, as few cities in Germany are as well connected by rail and road.

I am still of the opinion that if BER opens one day, the picture will change a lot. It will be straight away #3 in Germany in pax, perhaps #2 in O&D. BER will draw more passengers from the wider area around Berlin, as it will be easily reached by rail and road. It could draw more freight traffic to Berlin.
The main question will be after BER opens, how fast will its capacity of around 30 Mill passengers a year be too small and when it has to be expanded.

Cheap is key. Demand for O&D is strong for low cost tickets and even transfers through EY Regional. LH decided to base 4U in Berlin for a good reason. Berlin is contemplating going from six runways a couple years ago to two runways with a standalone BER, but would need at least TXL and BER just to keep up with current demand, let alone future demand. Berlin needs more than one airport, or a BER that's 2-3 times as big as the current 5 billion Euro project. Since Berlin arguably doesn't have 10-15 billion Euros, keeping TXL makes economic sense, apart from emotions.
2020: DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | IAH | LAX | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SFO | TXL
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:47 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 43):
Siemens, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Rolls Royce have smallish branches in Berlin,

It would be interesting to get your definition of a smallish branch, under 1,000 under 10,000 or under 20,000 personal?

Quoting ua900 (Reply 43):
Cheap is key. Demand for O&D is strong for low cost tickets and even transfers through EY Regional. LH decided to base 4U in Berlin for a good reason. Berlin is contemplating going from six runways a couple years ago to two runways with a standalone BER, but would need at least TXL and BER just to keep up with current demand, let alone future demand. Berlin needs more than one airport, or a BER that's 2-3 times as big as the current 5 billion Euro project. Since Berlin arguably doesn't have 10-15 billion Euros, keeping TXL makes economic sense, apart from emotions.



The 3 airports 6 runways to one airport 2 runways is an apples to bananas comparison.

THF had two runways, but short and not for independent use, and a terminal sized for 1.5 Mill passengers a year.
TXL has two runways, but they are again nearly side by side, and the official capacity of the terminals is around 12 Mill passengers a year.
SHX was the only Berlin airport with two independent runways, but its terminal capacity was only 7 Mill passengers a year. So the nominal capacity of all Berlin Airports together was about 22 Mill passengers per year.
This should have been replaced by BER in 2012, with two fully independent runways, a terminal for nominal 27 Mill passengers a year and enough space for further terminals or satellites. An airport similar in size to MUC before it was expanded. I agree that would BER have been finished on time, we would now talk about expansion.

And now your main argument is, to put it together, Berlin is that unimportant as a destination for air travel that an airport comparable to the size of MUC would not be big enough.      
 
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ua900
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:46 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 44):
It would be interesting to get your definition of a smallish branch, under 1,000 under 10,000 or under 20,000 personal?

Not a function of a site's headcount as much as significance to the company. Siemens company HQ was in Berlin, but that's effectively in Munich now. Mercedes has its oldest plant there, but it's an engine factory and Mercedes no longer produces cars in Berlin. Berlin doesn't even buy BMW motorcycles for its own police, that's how much they support whatever industry is there. Decisions at Siemens, Mercedes and BMW are made in MUC or STR, not in Berlin. Tons of other former Berlin companies are gone altogether. If you could transpose Berlin of the 1920s to today, you'd have a lot of premium demand in the area. As it stands, you don't.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 44):
And now your main argument is, to put it together, Berlin is that unimportant as a destination for air travel that an airport comparable to the size of MUC would not be big enough

Um, no. Berlin is very important to air travel actually, it has a large leisure market. This thread is about why you don't see a stronger presence of US carriers in Berlin, and you don't see it because there is no premium demand. UA would pull EWR-TXL in a heartbeat if they wouldn't be happy with selling 6-8 BF seats out of the 16 seats they have and upgrading the rest, just like DL did with their 763s, even if Y cabin is often full. US carriers don't have problem filling up planes in Y to TXL, but their plane configurations are too premium heavy for Berlin. LH wouldn't fly to LAX twice daily with 748s if it just wanted to serve Y traffic, and UA won't fly a 744 from SFO to TXL or BER for the same reason.
2020: DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | IAH | LAX | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SFO | TXL
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:06 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 41):
Not a function of a site's headcount as much as significance to the company. Siemens company HQ was in Berlin, but that's effectively in Munich now. Mercedes has its oldest plant there, but it's an engine factory and Mercedes no longer produces cars in Berlin. Berlin doesn't even buy BMW motorcycles for its own police, that's how much they support whatever industry is there. Decisions at Siemens, Mercedes and BMW are made in MUC or STR, not in Berlin. Tons of other former Berlin companies are gone altogether. If you could transpose Berlin of the 1920s to today, you'd have a lot of premium demand in the area. As it stands, you don't.

That is just uncoordinated talk around facts. Of course Berlin is not the main German industrial City it was 1938 before the second world war. Could anyone expect that to be after WW II and the being an island inside the DDR after that. Of course nobody moved their headquarters to Berlin again. But still if you go through the list of firms with headquarters in Berlin you find a few major ones. The metropolitan region of Berlin has more than 6 Mill inhabitants. And the GDP, from of course a lower level, has been growing twice as fast as Western Germany from 2000. So Berlin is in no way the down trodden unimportant "village" you make it out to be.
A lot of the industry once having been in Berlin will never come back having found a home elsewhere and not expanding anyway. But that does not stop new industries from settling there. Record in Germany for start up company's.
But your problem is that you have your horn in the politics and do not look at what is in Berlin today.

I think it does not matter for BMW motorcycles if the Berlin police buys them or not, they are successful, and if you would look at BMW-Werk-Berlin you would see that they are expanding not shrinking and not only doing motorcycles.
If we talk about Siemens, their position in Berlin is hardly smallish and if you want to talk rail with Siemens, I expect you have to travel to Berlin rather than Munich. And we could go down the line.
The main expansion in Berlin is in the IT industry. Someone has to do something when 13% of German patents in 2012 were filed in Berlin.

And as Berlin has a big share of German university's and research centres, more than for example Munich or Stuttgart, I can not imagine every university professor and/or highly paid scientist travelling the cheapest "cattle class" only.
Somehow I also do not connect government officials, and there are a lot of them in Berlin, with the cheapest way of travelling.

Back to flying. IMO the expected traffic from and to the USA is influence not only by Berlin as the choice of destination, but also on the USA side. I do not know if I expect a government official in the future to rather fly IAD-EWR-BER-EWR-IAD than IAD-FRA-BER-FRA-IAD, or the other way round.

But what I understand the least, is this talk about BER will be too small, but no airline is interested to fly to Berlin.

P.S you could answer what you call a smallish branch, perhaps than on could take you arguments seriously.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:28 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 31):
AFAIK -- YOW and YEG only receive a few international AC and scheduled chartered flights.

Icelandair started KEF-YEG service 5 x week about 2 weeks ago. And if you're referring to carries like Air Transat where you say "scheduled chartered", those are fully scheduled flights bookable in the GDS systems. The days of actual charter flights between Canada and Europe are over with very rare exceptions.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:42 pm

One think one also has to think about regarding European destinations and the USA or European premium traveller.

As the connection international to domestic is more comfortable in Europe, bags checked through and so on, I assume the itinerary will be USA point to European hub to European point and back, rather than USA point to USA hub to European point if there is no direct USA point to European point available.
So the main disadvantage of Berlin could be not being a hub, but being all about O&D.
 
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ua900
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:07 pm

[quote=mjoelnir,reply=42][And as Berlin has a big share of German university's and research centres, more than for example Munich or Stuttgart, I can not imagine every university professor and/or highly paid scientist travelling the cheapest "cattle class" only./quote] Have you seen how little German researchers are paid compared to their American and Swiss cousins? More than half of German immigrants with a science background go to one of these two countries because they don't want annual contracts and meager wages. Smallish branch is when you go from 30,000 employees to 3,000, from corporate HQ to specialized facility. I don't care about politics. Sustainable flying requires a well working economy, look no further than what's happening in the Dakotas and look at the yields there.

If your theory were right, we would see someone jump at the opportunity, but the opposite is true, DL just pulled the plug after 20 plus years of trying to make it work and UA has a niche presence with one daily 757. LH didn't end up creating a LH hub in Berlin, nor are they likely going to start if BER is ever completed.

I very much appreciate your optimism about the Berlin market and actually hope that things will be half as good as you say for Berlin's sake. It's a beautiful town deserving better than unemployment at twice the national average and an abundance of €1 jobs. Compare average wages in the US and Berlin, average wages in MUC and Berlin, and you'll quickly see a difference. If you only make €1,500 or €3,000 Euros per month, you are not likely to buy a €4,000 J ticket. And while there might be some people who make enough, it's clearly not enough to fill a plane on a US carrier.
2020: DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | IAH | LAX | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SFO | TXL
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Why No US Carrier Presence In Berlin?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:23 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 45):
I very much appreciate your optimism about the Berlin market and actually hope that things will be half as good as you say for Berlin's sake. It's a beautiful town deserving better than unemployment at twice the national average and an abundance of €1 jobs. Compare average wages in the US and Berlin, average wages in MUC and Berlin, and you'll quickly see a difference. If you only make €1,500 or €3,000 Euros per month, you are not likely to buy a €4,000 J ticket. And while there might be some people who make enough, it's clearly not enough to fill a plane on a US carrier.

I know that the average income in Berlin is just 90% of the average income in Germany overall and therefore lower than in Munich, Frankfurt, Dusseldorf, Hamburg or Stuttgart. The unemployment is also lower in those places than in Berlin.
But if you do compare Berlin not with the best in Germany, but with the average in Europe, both in family income and unemployment, the picture looks a bit different. Regarding average income in the USA, have you had a look in what direction average income is moving there? Top managers are up, but the "middle class" is down.
I believe still, that the delay of BER has dire consequences both for airlines wanting to commence flight to Berlin, but also for Air Berlin especially using Berlin as a hub.

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