dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:33 pm

One has to analyze all ping locations to get a holistic view.

Each ping has a different margin of error because of atmospheric conditions at that point in time. If all pings(considering margin of error) intersect at one general area, that implies plane didn't fly for 7+ hrs but just stayed in one location (let it be land or water).

Also one has to consider -59 minutes (to) +59 minutes fly time, because we don't know how long it flew after last known ping, we just don't have 9:11L ping.

My take, it is somewhere close Strait of Malacca. Knowing that initial search effort was a mess managed by Malaysia, it is possible they missed a grid or it is out of initial search area.

They should go back and review what areas they searched.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:34 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 146):
the more northerly ones are pretty well at ground level.

Hard to imagine an airport that isn't at ground level   
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
mouldypete
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:36 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 145):
Quoting BackSeater (Reply 144):
Quoting flood (Reply 125):
"Engineers at Inmarsat Plc (ISAT), whose satellite picked up the pings, plotted seven positions for the Boeing Co. (BA) 777-200ER on March 8, Chris McLaughlin, a company spokesman, said in an interview. The plane flew steadily away from the satellite over the equator while pinging, McLaughlin said."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...over-ocean-inmarsat-estimates.html

See news article posted by flood. Many theories are dead. The end.

I do not understand.
Inmarsat have been most careful to explain that the calculations based on the pings can only indicate the angle between the geostationary satellite and the a/c.

So how do they know:
1. that the plane crossed the equator?
2. It was constantly flying away from the satellite?

The southerly track postulated by the NTSB has to indicate that the a/c was flying marginally towards the satellite for about the first 1000 miles from the last known radar position.
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2.../mh370/images/9/9a/Final_map_2.jpg
 
shortstack81
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:40 pm

Quoting Mouldypete (Reply 151):
So how do they know:
1. that the plane crossed the equator?
2. It was constantly flying away from the satellite?

The word choice is poor. The Satellite is stationary over the equator. The sentence really should read "The airplane, while pinging, flew steadily away from the satellite WHICH is located over the equator."

[Edited 2014-03-21 05:42:02]
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:42 pm

Quoting Mouldypete (Reply 151):

The sat is over the equator and what they are saying is that the plane moved away from the sat consistently until the pings stopped.

1) The sat only shows a circle so there is a north and south result (it did not tell it crossed or not as the plane was roughly at the equator when it went north or south)

2) It was travelling further away from the sat as the pings went on is what they said. The accuracy is not perfect and marginally travelled doesn't mean that will show up hence the large arcs.


Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 149):

Even ignoring the sat data and the pings primary radar from two sites and another country show the turn around occurred. The sat data is also consistent with this as well. While it would be great if it was in the shallow waters there it doesn't look like that is the case.

[Edited 2014-03-21 07:16:39 by SA7700]
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:57 pm

I have not had the time to read what has to be the longest continuing thred in a.net history. But I was wondering if MH had tried to call the plane with selcall?
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
NAV30
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:57 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 148):
I think he means NW afterwards, when they were over the Strait of Malacca.

You could well be right, dc9northwest.

But my basic point is that, by that time, most of the human beings on the aeroplane may very well have been dead or incapacitated.

So that the computers were flying the thing?

[Edited 2014-03-21 06:06:55]
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:02 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 156):
You could well be right, northwest.

But my basic point is that, by that time, most of the human beings on the aeroplane may very well have been dead or incapacitated.

So that the computers were flying the thing?

Just wondering do planes have air quality sensors (CO, CO2, O2, RH%, Temp, Pressure) The last three I'm sure they monitor but the first three are less likely but CO, CO2 monitoring is pretty easy to do. (O2 is a bit harder).
 
Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:07 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 125):
The plane flew steadily away from the satellite over the equator while pinging, McLaughlin said."

Thank you the link to the Boomberg article.

Inmarsat is starting to comment and that's good.
I assume that the plane got steadily away from 3F1 only in the latter part of the flight since it would have gotten closer in the first part of the flight if we assume a direct flight from the Andaman Island to the current search area.

So, may be they'll be kind enough to continue commenting.
 
bueb0g
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:16 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 22):
However a 777 has FBW, so the control system would work to keep it in the attitude the pilots or autopilot left it. In a bank, it would keep banking, but it would maintain a constant bank angle which would neither converge nor diverge.

777 FBW roll control is essentially direct, so it doesn't maintain a bank angle like the 787 or the Airbus FBW a/c. It behaves like a cable driven craft.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 25):
The Helios flight may be an example, but I'm not sure.

A/P was on
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
jox
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:16 pm

I fully agree with those of you that claims that all SATCOM pings are interesting. But I wonder if we actually have them here in this image (from Reply 238 in thread 38):



If you look at the dotted circle segments, marked with xx:11, they match both the hourly ping times as well as the same curvature as the satellite arch we all have been discussing.

I also remember seeing some brief picture of a similar map on BBC or CNN late wednesday night I think.
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:21 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 159):
Inmarsat is starting to comment and that's good.
I assume that the plane got steadily away from 3F1 only in the latter part of the flight since it would have gotten closer in the first part of the flight if we assume a direct flight from the Andaman Island to the current search area.

So, may be they'll be kind enough to continue commenting.

Inmarsat provided a press release before the sat information was confirmed which was carefully worded as to not even say that the pings lead anywhere (at the time they neither confirmed the time nor location estimate even existed)

Shortly after governments confirmed the initial turnback they further refined it to produce the last ping arcs using all the data they had at the point.

To date in partnership with various other government agencies they refined the estimates narrowing the search area to a more manageable size while still seeking more data from primary radar sources which could help refine the estimate greatly.

This is pretty much the inmarsat timeline. Overall their communication and involvement to me appears to be excellent and they even flew experts to Malaysia and did pretty good interviews with major news agencies to try and keep speculation down to a minimum. If anything inmarsat didn't even need to get involved and it was the skill and extra effort of their own staff who revealed this additional method of tracking which without it the search would be basically impossible.

So in my view they were commenting as fast as they could without leading to any excess confusion which is a very good thing in my books.


Quoting jox (Reply 161):

Sure does look like all the points are there. Still results in the same end area as expected. And it does just generate a wedge. (Good way of plotting it so no one gets confused)

[Edited 2014-03-21 07:19:22 by SA7700]
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:26 pm

Quoting jox (Reply 161):
fully agree with those of you that claims that all SATCOM pings are interesting. But I wonder if we actually have them here in this image (from Reply 238 in thread 38):

The image you quoted made me think..

Apart from the fact that they knew there were 2 possible tracks the plane could have gone, why would we be searching to the south, when the last-known radar track and waypoint it was heading towards was tracking to the north-west? Why wouldn't we focus our time and attention more to the north-west? Is it geopolitical at this point? (ie, unfriendlies unwilling to let us search over their land?)

I suppose they are just ruling out the south, but.. if you're searching for someone in the woods, and you have a track of them heading in one direction, logic dictates you'd naturally go in the direction the tracks were headed?

Have they concretely come out and said the last known radar hit was tracking to the north-west? Or have they just said it was a hit on the radar?

(Sorry if any of this has been covered - i've been trying to keep up and have been reading rcair's sanity checks..)

1011yyz
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Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:27 pm

Straight to the South Pole? Can stupid coordinates be entered into a FMS?

Just a thought:
What puzzles me is that if you extrapolate a direct track from the Andaman islands to the debris area, you end up at or very close to the south Pole.

I am sure that data entry into a FMS is thoroughly checked for validity. Of course any pilot would catch an error easily.
But let us assume for a moment that someone other than a trained pilot is trying to enter something into the FMS.

I also assume that besides predefined waypoints you could enter raw coordinates. If that assumption is correct:
- what kinds of checks are performed on the entered coordinates?
- Is there such a thing as "undefined" within the software (e.g. outside the map -90N, 0E)?
- can you press Execute after an uncorrected data entry?
- can you think of any other screwy combination of keystrokes and/or buttons?

Of course, I would think that is impossible because it should, but maybe some FMS experts can completely rule out that possibility.
 
wingz
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:27 pm

If we assume pilot, or autopilot heading, input stops, then from replies earlier in this thread it seems clear we fall back on the FBW to maintain directional stability. In particular it looks like it will maintain a bank angle. That bank angle may be very small indeed, resulting in a flightpath comprising continuous very large circles. Any circling would hugely impact the potential range that could be covered. It would be interesting to know what error level is likely on the distance estimates from the pings analysis, and whether this would allow the footprint of notional circling flight to be detected. Even with a low distance error level, 1 ping per hour does present a potential aliasing problem for the data analysis. So those intermediate pings could be very important. But I guess Inmarsat will have done this.
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:29 pm

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 164):

They are also doing searches in the north and trying to get radar data analysed but that too takes time and it is probably logical to just go in parallel anyways. Each country involved usually would do their own internal search as there are issues geopolitically.
 
mouldypete
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:29 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 153):

The sat is over the equator and what they are saying is that the plane moved away from the sat consistently until the pings stopped.

1) The sat only shows a circle so there is a north and south result (it did not tell it crossed or not as the plane was roughly at the equator when it went north or south)

2) It was travelling further away from the sat as the pings went on is what they said. The accuracy is not perfect and marginally travelled doesn't mean that will show up hence the large arcs.

Sorry but I'm still not understanding.

The last known radar position of the a/c is "roughly" 700 miles north of the equator.
The track postulated by the NTSB starts at an angle to the satellite of approximately 52.5 degrees from the satellite and flies towards the satellite until the angle increases to 56.5 degrees before is starts to drop off to the 40 degree arc. If the ping calculation error is as much as 4 degrees each way, then the search area needed is many times larger than that suggested by the NTSB.
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:32 pm

Quoting wingz (Reply 166):

They already stated to the media that it moved consistently outward and if it was doing circles the final ping would be far closer to the top of the arc's defined (even if there was aliasing) from what I gather they are also doing searches there it is just outside Australia's responsibility.

Quoting Mouldypete (Reply 168):

I don't have the raw data and the NTSB does so we would be guessing why the NTSB can narrow it down more than we can. But one could guess that it has to do with keeping things simply worded (generally moved away from the sat) and having the actual radar+sat data to build the track off of where they can still see the coming towards and away. In addition they also use an accurate fuel load to generate the tracks.

[Edited 2014-03-21 07:20:55 by SA7700]
 
asetiadi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:41 pm

Let's say this is not a pilot suicide / hijack attempt. Is there any possibility things like improper take off configuration, missed steps, anything that are needed for plane to take off safely that could be forgotten ? Any complaint regarding the plane itself from the previous pilot who flown that plane? Do we all know about this?
 
jox
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:42 pm

If you look at the positions in the map I linked above, the positions agree with:

* Gradually moved away from the Satellite
* Constant speed
* Straight course

Maybe the two different paths (that widens as they go south/north from the starting point) could match the different distance from the Sat if the plane was on FL300 (or so) or at sea/ground level?
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:46 pm

Quoting jox (Reply 172):
Maybe the two different paths (that widens as they go south/north from the starting point) could match the different distance from the Sat if the plane was on FL300 (or so) or at sea/ground level?

Not quite sure if the plane could travel that far at sea/ground level (planes don't really fly that low).
 
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zeke
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:46 pm

Quoting Mouldypete (Reply 151):
Inmarsat have been most careful to explain that the calculations based on the pings can only indicate the angle between the geostationary satellite and the a/c.

I do not believe that to be the case, I have not seen them say the calculations were angle based, I actuality understood it to be time of flight based. That time of flight can them be calculated as a distance from the satellite, which translates to arc over the earths surface.

If it was angle based, they should know if it was heading north or south, where range gives two solutions.
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GZed
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:50 pm

Quoting jox (Reply 161):
I fully agree with those of you that claims that all SATCOM pings are interesting. But I wonder if we actually have them here in this image (from Reply 238 in thread 38):

Thanks for reposting that. I have not seen this image before. It is in fact exactly what we've been talking about, and hoping to see.

It also explains the claim from Inmarsat that "The plane flew steadily away from the satellite".
 
jox
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:52 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 174):
I do not believe that to be the case, I have not seen them say the calculations were angle based, I actuality understood it to be time of flight based. That time of flight can them be calculated as a distance from the satellite, which translates to arc over the earths surface.

My understanding is that Inmarsat has said 2 things.

a) It is "angle based" only to that extent that it is only ONE of their satellites that has picked up signals from the plane. I.e. it has to be within an angle that no of their other sats also covers.

b) The radius of the "arc" is based not on angle, but on transmission time of the signal (time between the signal is sent from the sat until the answer from the plane comes back - divided by 2).
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:54 pm

Inmarsat seems certain that the plane is in the Southern Indian Ocean.


Inmarsat, the maker of satellites, told ABC News that they had an "initial idea" on March 9 and by March 10 were "fairly certain" that the search parties should look in the south Indian Ocean for the vanished plane.

http://gma.yahoo.com/satellite-compa...24715287--abc-news-topstories.html
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:56 pm

Quoting GZed (Reply 175):
Thanks for reposting that. I have not seen this image before. It is in fact exactly what we've been talking about, and hoping to see.

It also explains the claim from Inmarsat that "The plane flew steadily away from the satellite".

It actually was posted before in earlier threads. And as stated before it doesn't change the end area and does just draw a wedge (Which the NTSB narrowed to a tight wedge using their own refinements so were not actually seeing the full fat wedge because that would look confusing)

[Edited 2014-03-21 06:57:08]
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:03 pm

Quoting jox (Reply 176):
It is "angle based" only to that extent that it is only ONE of their satellites that has picked up signals from the plane. I.e. it has to be within an angle that no of their other sats also covers.

The IOR satellite coverage actually is overlapped by one of the POR's coverage to the east and one of the AOR's coverage to the west. The fact that there is an overlap but that the other two satellites did not detect the last "ping" is what they used to construct the two arcs.

[Edited 2014-03-21 07:13:31]


Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 177):
Inmarsat, the maker of satellites, told ABC News that they had an "initial idea" on March 9 and by March 10 were "fairly certain" that the search parties should look in the south Indian Ocean for the vanished plane.

It sounds to me like the Inmarsat data created the two arcs, one to the north and one to the south, and when that was combined with other data (primary radar coverage?) it tended to point to the southern arc.


[Edited 2014-03-21 07:25:23 by SA7700]
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
GZed
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:10 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 130):
Quoting tomlee (Reply 120):http://www.amsa.gov.au/media/incidents/images/DIGO_00718_01_14.jpghttp://www.amsa.gov.au/media/inciden...4.jpgAh those ones! Sorry, I see nothing remotely resembling a logo on those images. I stared at them for an hour or so through the day when released.I thought with people saying "I can see a logo" they were referring to different images. Thank you for the links though.

I have spoken with someone who has seen high quality images that show the so called "debris field" much more clearly than the images released. The images he has seen will never be released because the owner of the "equipment" that produced the images do not want to demonstrate their true capabilities - standard national security stuff.

I can also tell you that he felt that the size and shape was consistent with a floating shipping container, in his opinion.


Quoting hivue (Reply 181):
It sounds to me like the Inmarsat data created the two arcs, one to the north and one to the south, and when that was combined with other data (primary radar coverage?) it tended to point to the southern arc.

If you look down the left hand side of the image re-posted recently (the one with the ping rings) you'll see the description of why the southern route is favoured. Its purely based on the fact that there is a higher chance of evading primary radar and cell phone coverage along the southern route.

The planes last known heading actually favours the northern route, so it's impossible to know for sure at this point.

[Edited 2014-03-21 07:39:29 by SA7700]
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:17 pm

Quoting GZed (Reply 182):

The images are from DigitalGlobe which is a commercial sat imaging company. If you have the money you can buy the highest quality images they can produce. I don't think they are allowed to fly with classified imaging systems on a commercial for profit sat. Although maybe there is a higher res shot of the same area but I don't think Digitalglobe (tomnod) is flying around with top secret cameras and stuff.

I just hope they can find whatever was in the sat images so we can either confirm the southern area so everything gets focused or keep looking in both areas till something else turns up.
 
panampaul
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:21 pm

i'm sure a lot of what's in this article is known to folks here but I found an interesting look on fight data recorders and learned a bit more about them.

Flight Data Recorder Will Hold Key to the Mysteries of MH370

Quote:
Once locating the missing plane that operated Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 has been accomplished, the mystery of what happened may only have begun.

If the Australian-led search in the southern Indian Ocean turns up the missing plane, authorities will most likely be able to piece a few pieces of the puzzle together, such as whether there was an explosion or fire in the cabin or whether the aircraft broke up before hitting the water.

Many questions, however, won’t get answered immediately if at all. ...

.
 
GZed
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:22 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 184):
The images are from DigitalGlobe which is a commercial sat imaging company.

I suspect my contact was not referring to the actual Digital Globe images, but instead has seen higher quality versions of the same area at the same time from a military or intelligence source.

[Edited 2014-03-21 07:27:03]
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:22 pm

Quoting GZed (Reply 182):
Its purely based on the fact that there is a higher chance of evading primary radar and cell phone coverage along the southern route.

Thanks. That would tend to suggest the plane was purposely flown south rather than just being some sort of ghost flight with everyone on board unconscious.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:24 pm

Quoting GZed (Reply 172):
Thanks for reposting that. I have not seen this image before. It is in fact exactly what we've been talking about, and hoping to see.

Hey guys: reality check time. The dotted red arcs in that image are not from published INMARSAT data. They are assumptions by whichever organization created that map based on published NTSB tracks and the published last-ping arcs. It says so right in the legend.

They are not the data that was used to create the tracks. They are the data we can infer was used to create the tracks.

Please try to pay attention.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:32 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 184):

It is usually pretty easy to work backwards from an answer once someone gives you the solved solution and a number of hints. So not really the raw data (wasn't expecting them to release that) but it can be inferred the raw data would look something similar to that due to the provided NTSB data and the end arc.

They still do represent the general idea pretty well even if not the actual data. I doubt any media group/person has anything more than what we can see online published from the various government organizations.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:33 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 181):
The images are from DigitalGlobe which is a commercial sat imaging company. If you have the money you can buy the highest quality images they can produce. I don't think they are allowed to fly with classified imaging systems on a commercial for profit sat. Although maybe there is a higher res shot of the same area but I don't think Digitalglobe (tomnod) is flying around with top secret cameras and stuff.

Actually DigitalGlobe is allowed to take images above commercial grade resolution, but can sell those only to US Military, 50cm is the cutoff. They have two sats one with 46cm another with 25cm. NRO didn't launch enough satellites recently so this mitigates the gap.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:38 pm

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 181):

If it was a hijack/suicide, and things were deliberately turned off, it could be that the DFDR was disabled.

The speculated fire that took out the comms, may have taken out the DFDR as well, but it should still have helpful data.

If it was a mechanical failure, then the DFDR should tell us a lot.
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:39 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 186):
Actually DigitalGlobe is allowed to take images above commercial grade resolution, but can sell those only to US Military, 50cm is the cutoff. They have two sats one with 46cm another with 25cm. NRO didn't launch enough satellites recently so this mitigates the gap.

Technically they are only really being capped by regulation and that is probably going to move with international competition. They still are not carrying any classified imaging hardware or military assets on their sats. It is just their commercial camera is better than the US is currently comfortable with. They do intend to sell 25cm images if their lobby is successful. I didn't really see any link to the NRO as their sats in the same articles claim to have 10cm resolutions.

Google would really like all the image as they get planes to overfly to get way higher resolution images. (They even lidar scan entire areas by plane, car, person)
 
Razza74
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:40 pm

Going to try and get up near to RAAF Pearce this weekend with RAAF, RNZAF and JSDF Orions, not something you would see everyday here in Perth
Ahh the joy of living under a flightpath
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:41 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 184):
It is usually pretty easy to work backwards from an answer once someone gives you the solved solution

You can hand-wave away the fact that you have to make a lot of assumptions to generate that data, but it doesn't make it any more accurate.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
GZed
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:43 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 181):
It sounds to me like the Inmarsat data created the two arcs, one to the north and one to the south, and when that was combined with other data (primary radar coverage?) it tended to point to the southern arc.

If you look down the left hand side of the image re-posted recently (the one with the ping rings) you'll see the description of why the southern route is favoured. Its purely based on the fact that there is a higher chance of evading primary radar and cell phone coverage along the southern route.

The planes last known heading actually favours the northern route, so it's impossible to know for sure at this point.
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:46 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 188):
You can hand-wave away the fact that you have to make a lot of assumptions to generate that data, but it doesn't make it any more accurate.

Not sure where I said it was accurate just representative. And the estimated end area the NTSB provides is just that an estimate. That too may not be accurate but the representative figure still illustrates the idea without actually being accurate or using raw data.

Quoting GZed (Reply 192):
Are you talking about this image rcair1? This one seems to show the earlier pings:

If you note the gray text it is just a well put together user image that is a good representation of what the intermediate pings might look like. (Look at the light gray text and how it says it is all representative)

[Edited 2014-03-21 07:56:51]
 
rcair1
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:47 pm

Quoting imatams (Reply 143):
-'Multispectral' means, I presume, that other data than visual imagery was included in the image. Can anyone explain?

A color camera can also be considered multispectral.
There are 2 images - panchromatic which means it has no spectral information other than what the sensor inherently detects. This can include frequencies in the non-visible part of the spectral.
Multi-spectral - in the general sense - means you have both intensity and wavelength information for each pixel. That can be captured directly - like happens in a 3 sensor video camera, or some of it can be estimated - like what happens in an color digital camera using a CFA (color filter array).
In the limit - spectral images mean you have the full spectrum for each pixel. Spectral images are huge.

From a laymans sense, you can think of the panchromatic as a black and white image, the multispectral as a color image, except the concept of black and white and color are really artifacts of how the human visual system interprets the spectrum.

Quoting jox (Reply 160):
I also remember seeing some brief picture of a similar map on BBC or CNN late wednesday night I think.

The map quoted does not show the earlier pings - it shows the locus of there they would have to be if the a/c flew a direct course from the last known radar position to the 'last ping' locus assuming a given speed and endurance.
rcair1
 
GZed
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:54 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 191):
The map quoted does not show the earlier pings - it shows the locus of there they would have to be if the a/c flew a direct course from the last known radar position to the 'last ping' locus assuming a given speed and endurance.


Are you talking about this image rcair1? This one seems to show the earlier pings:

 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:59 pm

Quoting GZed (Reply 192):
Are you talking about this image rcair1? This one seems to show the earlier pings:

It does not. It *seems* to show them, but indeed it does not. That is where the pings "would have to have been" to generate the track that the NTSB did.

The arcs INMARSAT staff plotted for the NTSB have not been released other than the last one. This is not them.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:00 pm

Quote:
The engineers at Inmarsat were able to validate their estimates of the plane’s location by matching its position at 1:07 a.m., when it sent a burst of data through its Aircraft Communications and Reporting System, McLaughlin said. That final transmission on Acars included a GPS position that was used to calibrate the other estimates, he said.

Would this match be with the 1:11 ping?

Seems like Inmarsat has reason to be certain of where 9M-MRO went. Even early in the flight.

[Edited 2014-03-21 08:01:02]
 
airbazar
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:01 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 178):
The images are from DigitalGlobe which is a commercial sat imaging company. If you have the money you can buy the highest quality images they can produce. I don't think they are allowed to fly with classified imaging systems on a commercial for profit sat. Although maybe there is a higher res shot of the same area but I don't think Digitalglobe (tomnod) is flying around with top secret cameras and stuff.

If it's top secret, we'll never know exactly what it is that they have or don't have  
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:01 pm

Quoting GZed (Reply 192):
This one seems to show the earlier pings:

As explained before and on the legend of the image: "Satellite ping distance arcs" / "Example based on NTSB high probability tracks".

The author shows how the earlier ping rings could have been.

We don't even have solid knowledge that the data related to earlier pings is stored by Inmarsat.

Regarding another topic: if Inmarsat says that the ping "arc" is angle-based, it might be that they are using antenna angle, not time-of-flight, for radius estimation. I don't know how they would be able to derive antenna angle, though.
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:04 pm

Quoting GZed (Reply 192):
This one seems to show the earlier pings:

Those "earlier pings" on the map are labeled "Example based on NTSB high probability tracks." They're examples, not real ping data.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:06 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 196):
We don't even have solid knowledge that the data related to earlier pings is stored by Inmarsat.

We do, an Inmarsat employee said on the record that they plotted 7 of the pings for investigators. It was in a news article quoted somewhere upthread or in a previous thread. They have gone on record with that, though.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
GZed
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41

Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:09 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 197):
Those "earlier pings" on the map are labeled "Example based on NTSB high probability tracks." They're examples, not real ping data.

I see. Well that's ridiculous. Why even include them if they are just made up lines based on the theory of straight line flight?

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