tim73
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:29 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 99):
We may be progressing towards the real-time data age. However consider this. Real time data is well within the achievable, but it is not without cost

At least transponders should not be able to shutdown from the plane while flying or at least should be able to turn on by radar if needed.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:34 pm

Quoting tim73 (Reply 100):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 99):
We may be progressing towards the real-time data age. However consider this. Real time data is well within the achievable, but it is not without cost

At least transponders should not be able to shutdown from the plane while flying or at least should be able to turn on by radar if needed

We've been through this numerous times in this discussion. The transponder can be turned off for a several reasons, one being power cycling in case of malfunction. More importantly, you want to be able to pull the circuit breaker for any system on the plane in case of malfunction for safety reasons. Electrical arcing and fires in flight are bad Feng Shui.

One flight in a billion may be lost because it could not be tracked, but many many more would crash due to electrical fires if stuff could not be turned off.

Ask any airline pilot what he or she is most afraid of, and the answer is typically "fire". A transponder that cannot be turned off would add a significant hazard to each and every flight without providing a tangible safety benefit. Whether MH370 has been hijacked, diverted to an airfield in Pakistan or crashed into the ocean due to a malfunction, a transponder without an off switch would almost certainly not have made any difference to the lives of the passengers and crew.

[Edited 2014-03-23 05:35:45]

[Edited 2014-03-23 05:36:00]

[Edited 2014-03-23 05:36:37]

[Edited 2014-03-23 05:38:32]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Alfons
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:36 pm

Quoting tim73 (Reply 98):
In today's world why do we still have to rely on finding two metal boxes at the bottom of the ocean to find out what happened - surely the technology must exist for aircraft to automatically transmit flight data direct to the cloud?

Because in today's (commercial) world, everything is weighted by the proportion of business need/investition (capex, opex). Luckily, airplanes still fall rarely (and will fall more rarely hopefully in the future) from sky, and therefore such an increase in capex and opex is seen as not necessary as usually, a plane's lifecycle ends in a normal way (scrapped).

Something will happen here only if NTSB or IATA or whatever big and strong airline business authority puts up such a new, binding policy. But if satellite vendors and service providers start to smell a market here as they feel such a policy might arrive, it could lower the rental prices drastically due to economy of scale. And that can be the breakthrough.

We just can hope.
 
uta999
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:36 pm

Radar is reaching the end of its shelf life.

In future, aircraft will be controlled in 3D real-time based on Satellite information.

It's worth starting that move now
Your computer just got better
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:40 pm

Quoting uta999 (Reply 103):

Radar is reaching the end of its shelf life.

In future, aircraft will be controlled in 3D real-time based on Satellite information.

It's worth starting that move now

I don't think you understand how the technology works. There is nothing magic about satellites.

If the pilots turn off transmission from the plane, how can satellites know where the plane is? Radar and similar technologies are the only way to track items that do not transmit information.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:42 pm

How twin engine jets like A319 and few other business jets are able to participate in this search? What kind of ETOPS rating they need or no need for that.

May be it is time to put all sparingly used or stored quads for good use.
 
tim73
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:51 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 101):
One flight in a billion may be lost because it could not be tracked, but many many more would crash due to electrical fires if stuff could not be turned off.

Then it should be connected to automatic fire alarm system and sends a code indicating fire before shutdown. The pilot should not be able to turn it off without somekind message sent before by the system.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:04 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
As a matter of fact the last known position - from FlightRadar (!!!) was a turn to the left, consistent to a direct track to IGARI ( confirmed by the Mickey Mouse Chinese COM translation), and starting a turn to fintercept the course to BITOD and subsequent route points.

FR24's track ends with a turn to the right, actually. In the last data the heading is 25, then 28, then 40 degrees. BITOD is a right turn from IGARI for MH370.
 
atnight
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:05 pm

I have a question, is Boeing doing anything to assist locating the airplane? I have not heard anything or seen any news report concerning Boeing and whether its assisting in any way. If they have, I have missed it and would like to be informed, because until something is proven, it can very well be an issue with the aircraft itself which could end up being an issue Boeing will have to fix... so the passive form in which Boeing has acted doesn't show a lot of concern and gives a bad impression... it really seems a lot different from the AF447 accident, in which case Airbus was a lot more involved in searching for the airplane and later in the recovery process. So hopefully Boeing is indeed doing all it can (could at least pay some of the costs) to locate the missing aircraft and get some answers.
B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
 
mandala499
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:10 pm



Quoting GZed (Reply 89):
For those of you wanting a visual representation of what mandala499 just said, click here:
http://skyvector.com/?ll=4.175498331...7:F.WM.NILAM:F.VO.IGOGU:F.VC.TOPIN

Allow me to be picky...  biggrin 
This is a better version: http://bit.ly/1ir4SqS

Quoting uta999 (Reply 97):
I agree, it's now time that real-time location (speed, Alt plus lat-long becomes a legal requirement. Refreshed every 60 seconds, it could act as ATC radar over remote areas and the oceans, as well as reducing the 60nm separation.

Refreshed every 60 seconds? OMG! ADS-B can already do it at 2x a second! Why downgrade? But then, hey, ADS-B is useless once you switch the transponder off...
So let's go with SatCom... many systems can now transmit position data every 5 seconds or pool per second data and send it per 5 seconds... BUT... the costs are just going to explode.

Quoting uta999 (Reply 97):
It could also open up longer routes over water, knowing that any incident would be quickly located and a rescue organised.

ETOPS requirements anyone? You're limited by the rules allowing you to operate for how long on a single engine should an engine fail. Knowing where the aircraft is, technology is already there and some airlines have used it without mandatory legislation, and this way, more airlines will take it up at reasonable cost. Make it mandatory, and the prices for such a service and equipment will be ridiculous. AF447 shows that even if you have a good position data when it goes down, it'll still take a few days to get there and find it.

Quoting uta999 (Reply 97):
If a flight deviates from flight plan, it would turn RED on ATC and military radar. Prompting a response.

Flights deviate on a regular basis. How much of a deviation are you going to allow? None? Then the system will bog down and crash on itself. And if you turn off your transponder, the military would know the flight's gone "red", but determining if it's in distress or whether it's been hijacked, we have nothing except for interception.

Quoting uta999 (Reply 97):
Much of the data sent now is benign. Showing the aircraft is working normally. In future only abnormal data should be sent.
Other data could also be sent via satellite to indicate a major failure/incident with an aircraft system, or unusual crew action onboard.
OK, do this and expect flight costs to go up... these so-called benign data are often:
- Aircraft position (speed, position, altitude, etc).... isn't this what you asked for?
- Aircraft health monitoring... what's the engines burning per hour plus what's the gross weight. This is used for performance monitoring, monitor aircraft performance degradation and also allow trend monitoring... benign? No, on the contrary, this is to allow preventive action by maintenance to make flying safer and cheaper.
- Cut the transmissions to abnormal data only? OK... then forget "late gate connection information", or even "missed connection planning" by the airline for you... and also, forget preventive maintenance action to intercept and replace problem parts of the aircraft system before it even makes it to the headlines in terms of a diversion or (God forbid) a mayday call.

Quoting uta999 (Reply 103):
Radar is reaching the end of its shelf life.
In future, aircraft will be controlled in 3D real-time based on Satellite information.
It's worth starting that move now

You have got to be kidding me. An aircraft "going dark", radar is your best bet on tracking it... and the primary radars...
ADS-B is the next best thing after secondary radar, and it enables better coverage for "below the earth's curvature" as ADS-B sites are cheaper than radar sites... which are still cheaper than satellites.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 104):
I don't think you understand how the technology works. There is nothing magic about satellites.

He forgets that relying solely on satellite is inherently risky, and expensive.

Uta999,
What frequency band is going to be used? Weather proof in civil, you're going to get L-band or S-band... these frequency bands are quickly being gobbled up by cellular operators and wireless data links in the IT business. The L-band terrestrial-space use co-frequency concept of Lightsquared sorta went up in smoke (well, in the form of bankruptcy) because it was not financially feasible (not yet anyway). If you want to go to Ku band or Ka band, you're going to need a lot of power hence more money and larger antennas to get through weather... on aircraft this will then have drag and fuel burn issues.
These satellite communications system rely on beam steering from the aircraft to the satellite if you want to keep transmission power relatively low and cheap... now the problem is... how you going to deal with the aircraft being inverted? Lose the datalink? How else you going to get coverage on this guy who's upside down? Radar? Oh hang on, you just scrapped the radar system... Oh well, ADS-B then? :p
And then what do you do when there are outages (such as solar blindspot on the ground earth station)? How are you going to cover that?
The list can go on and on...

Quoting alfons (Reply 102):
Something will happen here only if NTSB or IATA or whatever big and strong airline business authority puts up such a new, binding policy. But if satellite vendors and service providers start to smell a market here as they feel such a policy might arrive, it could lower the rental prices drastically due to economy of scale. And that can be the breakthrough.

They lower prices if they're not selling well. If they're selling well, they'll increase the price of the bandwidth. On the equipment front, yes, economies of scale can reduce the capital acquisition costs of satcom systems.. but hey, some tracking systems that are as robust as the aircraft's own internal avionics can cost as little as $1000-2000... At the end of the day, whether we talk about the $1000-2000 system or the $100,000 - $1 million systems, what matters is "how much does the service cost?"... this has been the question airlines have time and time again asked.

Besides, satcom position for ATC purposes is already mandatory for North Atlantic... give it time, more oceanic areas will adopt the same measures... but read above again... if it can be switched off... will you refuse it? If it can't be switched off, will you regret it when you're trying to breathe in a smoke filled aircraft because the damn thing arc-ed and started a fire in a place with no fire suppression and the pilots are already incapacitated if not dead?

[Edited 2014-03-23 06:14:14]
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
mandala499
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:21 pm

Quoting tim73 (Reply 106):
Then it should be connected to automatic fire alarm system and sends a code indicating fire before shutdown. The pilot should not be able to turn it off without somekind message sent before by the system.

OK, let's start a fake fire... alarm goes off... switches it off... 
Or better, just cut the damn wire if you can...

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 107):
FR24's track ends with a turn to the right, actually. In the last data the heading is 25, then 28, then 40 degrees. BITOD is a right turn from IGARI for MH370.

Hurray! At least someone noticed the 040 track prior to the turnaround!   

Quoting atnight (Reply 108):
so the passive form in which Boeing has acted doesn't show a lot of concern and gives a bad impression... it really seems a lot different from the AF447 accident, in which case Airbus was a lot more involved in searching for the airplane and later in the recovery process. So hopefully Boeing is indeed doing all it can (could at least pay some of the costs) to locate the missing aircraft and get some answers.

Airbus knew the aircraft was having problems based on the ACARS CWC messages the aircraft sent... and it was having problems that was already known... (pitot icing) so in that case it was important for Airbus to get involved because they needed to know if there was something else that made that flight crash while all the others who had the same problem didn't... (that's why it was paying for some of the recovery cost... not the search cost).

Boeing's case at the moment, there's nothing to go on... Sure they are already involved and doing all they can, but seriously, what can they do? Just because they don't appear to be giving results doesn't mean that Boeing is just sitting there watching this one go by at it's own pace... We haven't stated going to the recovery phase, it's still in the search phase. Manufacturers don't really like to pay on the search phase...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
jox
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:29 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 110):
Hurray! At least someone noticed the 040 track prior to the turnaround!   

FR24 themselves noticed this. They posted the text below on their Facebook page on March 9.

======

The ADS-B transponder of an aircraft is transmitting data twice per second. FR24 saves data every 10-60 second depending on altitude. On cruising altitude data is normally saved once per 60 seconds. By analyzing all our databases and logs we have managed to recover about 2 signals per minute for the last 10 minutes.

The last location tracked by Flightradar24 is
Time UTC: 17:21:03
Lat: 6.97
Lon: 103.63
Alt: 35000
Speed: 471 knots
Heading: 40

Between 17:19 and 17:20 the aircraft was changing heading from 25 to 40 degrees, which is probably completely according to flight plan as MH370 on both 4 March and 8 March did the same at the same position. Last 2 signals are both showing that the aircraft is heading in direction 40 degrees.

Today there are reports in media that MH370 may have turned around. FR24 have not tracked this. This could have happened if the aircraft suddenly lost altitude as FR24 coverage in that area is limited to about 30000 feet
 
Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:31 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 70):
7. Aircraft seen on radar tracking out of Penang at a track consistent with VPG (Penang VOR) to VAMPI, in a reasonably straight but low meandering track. General direct track is about 285º to 290º (should be 288º). (Chinese Press conference, 21Mar).
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 82):
Unfortunately, no. The radar track showed that the aircraft ended up outbound on a 285-290 deg track from PEN but the plot does not show it flying over PEN, but...

Do you know whether radar altitudes have been published for the whole track recorded by the military radar shown of the slide entitled "Military radar from Pulau Perak to last plot at 02:22H"?

Looking at that slide and if we assume that the radar was operational the whole time, I would propose the following explanation for the radar plots:
- all numbers below are approximate and all altitudes MSL
- I assume the radar is at Buttterworth AB as shown on the slide That is near Penang and at sea level for all practical purposes
- close to Penang, it is not clear what the plane was doing
- 36nm from the radar, returns are strong and consistent. The plane must be flying at 1,000ft or higher
- 67nm out. returns weaken and disappear 97nm out. Therefore the plane must be flying around 5,000ft at that point.
- 167nm out, the aircraft reappears because it is climbing through 18,000ft
- 220nm, radar contact is lost as would be expected with the aircraft around 32,000ft

That does not look like a plane flying on its own.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:35 pm

Quoting tim73 (Reply 100):

At least transponders should not be able to shutdown from the plane while flying or at least should be able to turn on by radar if needed.
Quoting tim73 (Reply 106):

Then it should be connected to automatic fire alarm system and sends a code indicating fire before shutdown. The pilot should not be able to turn it off without somekind message sent before by the system.

Don't mean to be rude, but you don't seem to know much about air operations. Just 2 flights ago I had to shut off the transponder and turn it back on again because it wasn't working. That wasn't the first nor will it be the last time that has happened.

I supposed you are also for automatic fire suppression systems and no shut off capabilities of the CVR and the FDR too? What about packs and the outflow valve? The pilots can use that to depressurize the aircraft and kill the pax. They can cut engines, hell, they can just nose down and kill everyone

Your idea is all about fixing a one in a billion fluke and just makes it harder/more expensive/LESS safe for literally everyone else. Now we have to worry about transponder fires and hope the suppression system takes care of it. Now we have to land just to reset a malfunctioning transponder (while putting everyone at danger because ATC doesn't quite know where you are with it not working.) Now certain ATCs have to have a million dots in a very high traffic area because aircraft can't turn their transponders off (this is frequently requested of pilots in high traffic areas.)

And really, for what? Besides making the billions of other passengers less safe, would this have really saved anyone on MH370? Maybe in the very small chance the pax were alive but aren't now. Your idea will never happen because it's not needed and is only a huge hindrance
 
tim73
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:47 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 113):
Don't mean to be rude, but you don't seem to know much about air operations. Just 2 flights ago I had to shut off the transponder and turn it back on again because it wasn't working. That wasn't the first nor will it be the last time that has happened.

What I am saying, is better system integration. ACARS kept on sending pings despite transponder turned off. So you cannot so easily shutdown all communications. Maybe ACARS cannot be shutdown even in case of fire?
You could add maybe location info to those pings if transponder turned off or malfunctioning.
 
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PipoA380
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:53 pm

Here's a quick question:
-The place where debris were supposedly seen is 6000km away from the loss of contact point. At that point, it had already flow about 700km, so roughly 6700km were flown. Considering the Kuala-Beijing is about 4400km away, could it be that the plane's engines simply flamed out?
It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
 
spyglass
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:53 pm

OK, I have a ? 4 anyone here holding an ATR and flying anything from 737/319 size and up, or anyone holding an A&P specializing in acft systems. I believe the normal cabin altitude desirable is about 6-8k ft (1850-2450m), depending on departing and arriving cities. Is it possible to ever-so-gradually increase that level in the cabin (thru slow depressurization) manually where the masks wouldn't drop and pax already sleeping or drowsy (due to the hour) wouldn't be soon aware of it? If that's possible, could the masks for the cockpit be kept operable?
I remember when......a plane trip was a big deal.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:54 pm

Quoting tim73 (Reply 106):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 101):
One flight in a billion may be lost because it could not be tracked, but many many more would crash due to electrical fires if stuff could not be turned off.

Then it should be connected to automatic fire alarm system and sends a code indicating fire before shutdown. The pilot should not be able to turn it off without somekind message sent before by the system.

You're adding logic which prevents the pilots from instantly shutting a system down. Again, this means more risk for every single flight in order to speed up an investigation where everybody already died by a few weeks.

Quoting atnight (Reply 108):

I have a question, is Boeing doing anything to assist locating the airplane? I have not heard anything or seen any news report concerning Boeing and whether its assisting in any way.

Apart from providing systems expertise, how could they assist? Boeing does not own SAR resources.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:54 pm

Quoting tim73 (Reply 114):
ACARS kept on sending pings despite transponder turned off. So you cannot so easily shutdown all communications. Maybe ACARS cannot be shutdown even in case of fire?

ACARS sent nothing. It was disabled (note - neutral word). SATCOM was performing 'handshakes'.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:56 pm

Quoting spyglass (Reply 116):

Discussed multiple times on previous threads. Yes.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
tim73
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:57 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 118):
ACARS sent nothing. It was disabled (note - neutral word). SATCOM was performing 'handshakes'.

So you already got a communication channel there. Could it be shutdown by pilot without ripping of the modem? What happens in case of fire?
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:59 pm

Quoting tim73 (Reply 120):

It would be really helpful and reduce uninformed clutter if you read some of the earlier threads. Look for the latest (excellent) summary posted by rcair1 - Post 9 in this thread MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation).

[Edited 2014-03-23 07:00:18]

[Edited 2014-03-23 07:22:39]
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
cat3appr50
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:19 pm

Quoting Mandala499
"Allow me to be picky... biggrin
This is a better version: http://bit.ly/1ir4SqS"

Is this the current reported understanding of MH370 flight path from primary radar data?

I thought IGARI-VAMPI-GEVAL-IGREX was the reported path via primary radar data? Guess maybe I'm not up to speed with revisions.
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:25 pm

Information sent to a satellite at a more frequent interval, say every 5 minutes, would in itself provide decent tracking information.

The data could serially cover whatever systems and information interested parties wanted. (airlines, A or B, engine makers and government)

Data could be stored on the satellite, and only forwarded as needed, otherwise discarded after a certain time. This would cut data costs in half.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
mandala499
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:30 pm

Quoting jox (Reply 111):
By analyzing all our databases and logs we have managed to recover about 2 signals per minute for the last 10 minutes.

...

Between 17:19 and 17:20 the aircraft was changing heading from 25 to 40 degrees, which is probably completely according to flight plan as MH370 on both 4 March and 8 March did the same at the same position. Last 2 signals are both showing that the aircraft is heading in direction 40 degrees.

Would the raw feedster have higher interval resolution than this? (if he's using the standard FR24 receiver, then forget I asked)...
I'm interested in the data between 17:20 when all was shown as normal, and 17:21 when it showed position but no altitude, prior to disappearing. The accurate timestamps on this minute, can paint a better picture for all of us...

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 112):
Do you know whether radar altitudes have been published for the whole track recorded by the military radar shown of the slide entitled "Military radar from Pulau Perak to last plot at 02:22H"?

NO, The only thing I know was FL295 at 200NM away... but if we allow the shadowing theory to mess with our heads, EK343 was at FL340 at around VAMPY within a few minutes of MH370... so, nothing rules out the aircraft climbing... or whether the military hasn't got a clue on its altitude...   

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 112):
close to Penang, it is not clear what the plane was doing
- 36nm from the radar, returns are strong and consistent. The plane must be flying at 1,000ft or higher
- 67nm out. returns weaken and disappear 97nm out. Therefore the plane must be flying around 5,000ft at that point.
- 167nm out, the aircraft reappears because it is climbing through 18,000ft
- 220nm, radar contact is lost as would be expected with the aircraft around 32,000ft

Nice! Needed these numbers...

Quoting spyglass (Reply 116):
s it possible to ever-so-gradually increase that level in the cabin (thru slow depressurization) manually where the masks wouldn't drop and pax already sleeping or drowsy (due to the hour) wouldn't be soon aware of it? If that's possible, could the masks for the cockpit be kept operable?

Mask automatically drop down as soon as cabin altitude reaches 14,000ft.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 120):
So you already got a communication channel there. Could it be shutdown by pilot without ripping of the modem? What happens in case of fire?

The satcom can be shut down, but not in an easy manner from the cockpit as it is not a critical system and none of the boxes are not located within the Avionics Bay. If it catches fire, it would be treated as a cabin fire. To reduce fire risk from the satcom, disabling the data flow requiring the satcom (in this case, the ACARS, and in other cases, onboard WiFi services), is deemed adequate. There are CBs covering the antenna, signal amplifier (HPA), and the SDU... depends on the customer preference if they want it in a single CB, or separate, or whatever... The whole system apart from the HPA consumes very little power and generates very little heat. It is not a mission critical system too so therefore it does not need to have the ability to be able to be power recycled on demand. The power consumption (and the power risk) depends on if you have anything to pass through the data pipeline to the satellite.

Quoting cat3appr50 (Reply 122):
Is this the current reported understanding of MH370 flight path from primary radar data?

As per Friday, yes...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
ExpatExp
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:32 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 99):
Real time data is well within the achievable, but it is not without cost. Is it worth adding US$0.50 to every single ticket in order to solve the one crash in over thirty years that so far has no physical evidence a month or two faster?

As with many safety issues, some cost is likely worth it. I wonder how much time, money and human suffering could be avoided for that one incident every thirty years. Perhaps US$0.50 per flight would be a bargain?

As the cost of data transmission in these situations gets less and less expensive, I'd imagine that we will start to see data-intensive tracking systems used more frequently.
 
Skydrol
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:42 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 101):
Electrical arcing and fires in flight are bad Feng Shui.

Any modern piece of electronics will have its own internal fuses or fusible resistors which will prevent the device from going up in flames long before the supply breaker would trip. Even a cheap, no-name 20 dollar DVD player from Walmart comes with internal protection in case the switching power supply shorts. An internal fuse or safety resistor will open long before the 15A mains supply breaker will trip, or a fire would start. The device just turns off, without being able to be powered again. Do you really believe avionics equipment wouldn't employ similar or even better protection to be certified for the application?

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 101):
Whether MH370 has been hijacked, diverted to an airfield in Pakistan or crashed into the ocean due to a malfunction, a transponder without an off switch would almost certainly not have made any difference to the lives of the passengers and crew.

But it likely would have made a huge difference for family members of passengers and crew, and saved millions of dollars and wasted time and effort on the part of search parties from all over the world. You conveniently keep ignoring this when insisting how essential it is for equipment to be easily disabled.




LD4
∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
 
AVLnative
Posts: 30
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:47 pm

Whilst reading this article

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-phone-bypass-security-checks.html

I came across the reader comment

"This aircraft was fitted with Uninterruptible Autopilot System. It has been fitted to every Boeing plane since 2009 to ensure another 9/11 cannot happen."

That was news to me at least I don't recall reading that fact in these 43 threads.   But is it factual? I seem to recall that this 777 was build in 2002. It is all beginning to run together...
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 126):
But it likely would have made a huge difference for family members of passengers and crew, and saved millions of dollars and wasted time and effort on the part of search parties from all over the world.

Only if the aircraft stayed within SSR coverage - which it didn't.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
tim73
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:55 pm

Transponder requires 200 watts but your typical Inmarsat handset only about 6 watts. So that could be the way to create alternative path for location info.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:00 pm

Quoting avlnative (Reply 127):
But is it factual?

It's the Daily Mail. Draw your own conclusions.
 
Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:00 pm

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 123):
Data could be stored on the satellite, and only forwarded as needed, otherwise discarded after a certain time. This would cut data costs in half.

That is not the way satcoms work.
User comm data is never stored on the satellite. The up/down link between satellite and earth station is cheap because it is a wide band link usually in Ku-band with high gain directional antennas at both ends, especially at the earth station end.

The problem is the availability of L-band frequency spectrum on the other side, between the aircraft and the satellite. L-band is extremely crowded and therefore any piece of spectrum is expensive.

What operators have therefore done is move to more directional spot beams (e.g. Inmarsat 4) in order to reuse the same spectrum in non-adjacent beams to avoid interference. To make the spot beams as narrow as possible to promote frequency re-use, a large mesh antennas (10m +) is deployed once the satellite is in orbit.
 
capri
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:04 pm

This is getting weirder and weirder, now authorities said no route change prior to last transmission
 
David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:05 pm

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 126):
Any modern piece of electronics will have its own internal fuses or fusible resistors which will prevent the device from going up in flames long before the supply breaker would trip.

As has been said many times, fire is not the only reason for switching off a transponder, e.g. high traffic density, malfunction other than arcing.

Quoting avlnative (Reply 127):
"This aircraft was fitted with Uninterruptible Autopilot System. It has been fitted to every Boeing plane since 2009 to ensure another 9/11 cannot happen."

That was news to me at least I don't recall reading that fact in these 43 threads.   But is it factual?

I think someone in the chain has grossly misunderstood the function and purpose of FBW while confusing it with the autopilot.

Edit: typo

[Edited 2014-03-23 08:14:09]
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:12 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 107):
FR24's track ends with a turn to the right, actually. In the last data the heading is 25, then 28, then 40 degrees. BITOD is a right turn from IGARI for MH370.

OUPS !
My bad. Of course you're right ( no pun    ).
Please folks, replace the direction of the turn to *right*. The rest of the sentence is unchanged.
Bravo for picking it up, LTCK8K6 !
Hence, the post should read as :
..."]the last known position - from FlightRadar (!!!) was a turn to the RIGHT, consistent to a direct track to IGARI ( confirmed by the Mickey Mouse Chinese COM translation), and starting a turn to fintercept the course to BITOD and subsequent route points"
I was concentrating on the fact that one of my earliest theories involved a loss of transponder at a position, very close to IGARI at which Flight 370 would commence the turn to rally the M765 airway to BITOD ( with a track of 058° ). That theory still stands, unfortunately...

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 110):
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 107):
FR24's track ends with a turn to the right, actually. In the last data the heading is 25, then 28, then 40 degrees. BITOD is a right turn from IGARI for MH370.

Hurray! At least someone noticed the 040 track prior to the turnaround!
Quoting jox (Reply 111):

FR24 themselves noticed this. They posted the text below on their Facebook page on March 9.

As Mandala499 wrote : Hoorah ! At last people are retrieving some evidence lost in the conspiracy / mass murder... madness.
I think it's about time.
For those who distrust FlightRadar, take a look at the A350 prototypes threads. The guys there have managed - everyday - to reconstruct the flights' trajectories, well enough to identify some test manoeuvres ( the flutter tests in particular).
I'd say, in this instance I'd believe FR over any official retrieved radar blip.

Quoting jox (Reply 111):
The last location tracked by Flightradar24 is
Time UTC: 17:21:03
Lat: 6.97
Lon: 103.63
Alt: 35000
Speed: 471 knots
Heading: 40

This last position is important, if one takes into account FR's position coding as degrees / hundredths of degree as opposed as our way of coding as Degrees / Minutes and tenths of minutes.
.
Now compare IGARI as seen by FR : 6° 97 North / 103°63 East, against 6° 56',2 North 103° 35',2 . The conversion of our miutes into hundredths is easy : multiply them by 100/60 :
The result of the conversion comes as
Lat : 6.94
Lon : 103.59
...which means that the aircraft is passing (has passed, by 2 miles) IGARI and still turning to establish itself on track to BITOD.

That last FR position shows that at that moment, the aircraft was still within a normal en-route situation.
Contrail designer
 
panampaul
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:18 pm

I don't see this covered yet but the Australian PM announced "credible leads" in the search, although they are still small leads and may not lead to anything (no pun intended).

Quote:
As the search for the missing Malaysia Airlines jetliner continued in the southern Indian Ocean Sunday, new leads emerged.

At a news conference Sunday, Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott told reporters that the authorities leading the search had a number of credible leads that showed promise.

“It is still too early to be definite, but obviously we have now had a number of very credible leads and there is increasing hope –no more than hope – that we might be on the road to discovering what happened to this ill-fated aircraft,” said Abbott.....

from
Search for MH370 Brings ‘Credible Leads’ Says Australian PM-Last Acars Tranmission Showed Normal Route to Beijing

.

[Edited 2014-03-23 08:23:45]
 
mandala499
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:28 pm

Quoting ExpatExp (Reply 125):
Perhaps US$0.50 per flight would be a bargain?

Wow! What system is that? Sign me up tomorrow for that one! Try multiply that by 100 perhaps 1000 for 1 flight hour, depending on what you really want to put in it.

No, seriously... ACARS on a real high usage package is about $0.50 per message, if you're a stingy user on a stingy allowance program, it's $5 per message on a good day. This excludes satcom volume costs.

On safety related services, you're stuck with Iridium and Inmarsat-3 at the moment... Inmarsat-4 for safety services is coming, but it's at $4-5 a megabyte at the moment... and isn't set to go down, so forget the fiction of:

Quoting ExpatExp (Reply 125):
As the cost of data transmission in these situations gets less and less expensive, I'd imagine that we will start to see data-intensive tracking systems used more frequently.

for the moment...

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 126):
An internal fuse or safety resistor will open long before the 15A mains supply breaker will trip, or a fire would start. The device just turns off, without being able to be powered again.

For some stuff, this is good. For something like the transponder, you'd want it to go up again after you reset it because you're going to need it... for the SatCom, it's OK... (unless you're in the middle of north atlantic)...

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 123):
Information sent to a satellite at a more frequent interval, say every 5 minutes, would in itself provide decent tracking information.

The standard on Iridium based Automated Flight Following is a 2 minute interval, and it's the default setting.

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 123):
Data could be stored on the satellite, and only forwarded as needed, otherwise discarded after a certain time. This would cut data costs in half.

I wish...   

Quoting tim73 (Reply 129):
Transponder requires 200 watts but your typical Inmarsat handset only about 6 watts. So that could be the way to create alternative path for location info.

Except for the HPA on the Inmarsat aero system, it's up to 250W on 28VDC.

Quoting avlnative (Reply 127):
"This aircraft was fitted with Uninterruptible Autopilot System. It has been fitted to every Boeing plane since 2009 to ensure another 9/11 cannot happen."

Press "A/P D/C" and the Autopilot goes dead. That simple.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 131):
The problem is the availability of L-band frequency spectrum on the other side, between the aircraft and the satellite. L-band is extremely crowded and therefore any piece of spectrum is expensive.

Hurray! Someone who knows satcom...   L-band now has Inmarsat 3 & 4, plus Iridium, Globalstar, and Thuraya (which works in almost the same frequencies as Inmarsat)...

Quoting Pihero (Reply 134):
Please folks, replace the direction of the turn to *right*. The rest of the sentence is unchanged.
Bravo for picking it up, LTCK8K6 !

We have those days !    We're only human!

Quoting Pihero (Reply 134):
I'd say, in this instance I'd believe FR over any official retrieved radar blip.

I've used the same ADS-B raw data feed for use in accident investigations recently as preliminary data as the radar and FDR data gets processed. The FR data's disadvantage is the low update rate compared with what's actually available... but then... beggars can be choosers. We need that FR24 ADS-B feeder at Kota Bharu to come forward and provide the ADS-B raw data so we can have something to work on! :p
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:32 pm

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 135):
I don't see this covered yet but the Australian PM announced "credible leads" in the search, although they are still small leads and may not lead to anything (no pun intended).

I think the PM is referring to the three sets of satellite images (commercial US DigiGlobe, Chinese, and French). I would presume that the plane debris should generate a debris field, not just single pieces of debris, so it might be that the plane debris is not yet spotted but let's hope for the best.
 
art
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:39 pm

There seems to be a big delay between satellite images being taken and the identification of anomalies that might indicate debris. For satellite images that can be released into the public domain, why do they not stick them on the net and invite the public to review them and flag the image as of interest / not of interest?
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:40 pm

Quoting SouthernBelle (Reply 43):

Have you not seen the newest radar data? I think it's very interesting.
Quoting GZed (Reply 51):
Check this out. I have added a few extra points beyond what we know :
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 71):
6. So-called radar track has been "determined with great confidence to be that of MH370". (MH370 press conference 15 Mar by Prime Minister).
7. Aircraft seen on radar tracking out of Penang at a track consistent with VPG (Penang VOR) to VAMPI, in a reasonably straight but low meandering track. General direct track is about 285º to 290º (should be 288º). (Chinese Press conference, 21Mar)

The reason I have little faith with *official* radar-obtained positions is the posts above totally contradict the Thai nAir Force claim that " Flight 370 never crossed Thailand territory" , which means that as a matter of fact you have to redraw your flight paths to allow for that statement.
The closest route, allowing for the fact that it is under Malaysian ATC would be a VKB-VPG ( Khota Bharu - Peanang) on airway B219... and nobody saw Flight 370...
Contrail designer
 
evomutant
Posts: 377
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:44 pm

Quoting art (Reply 138):
There seems to be a big delay between satellite images being taken and the identification of anomalies that might indicate debris. For satellite images that can be released into the public domain, why do they not stick them on the net and invite the public to review them and flag the image as of interest / not of interest?

Because they would have every wave, shadow and cloud tagged by people who don;t know what they are doing.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:46 pm

Quoting ExpatExp (Reply 125):
As with many safety issues, some cost is likely worth it. I wonder how much time, money and human suffering could be avoided for that one incident every thirty years. Perhaps US$0.50 per flight would be a bargain?

Note that I said per ticket, not per flight. In an industry where margins per passenger are in many cases measured in individual US$, ½ a dollar is significant money.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 126):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 101):
Electrical arcing and fires in flight are bad Feng Shui.

Any modern piece of electronics will have its own internal fuses or fusible resistors which will prevent the device from going up in flames long before the supply breaker would trip. Even a cheap, no-name 20 dollar DVD player from Walmart comes with internal protection in case the switching power supply shorts. An internal fuse or safety resistor will open long before the 15A mains supply breaker will trip, or a fire would start. The device just turns off, without being able to be powered again. Do you really believe avionics equipment wouldn't employ similar or even better protection to be certified for the application?

I believe avionics equipment should have a circuit breaker that can be pulled by the pilot. So does any pilot, aircraft designer, regulator and aircraft operator. A century of operations have shown this concept to be a good idea.

Fire on the ground can typically be escaped by leaving the premises. Fire in an aircraft is another matter entirely.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 126):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 101):
Whether MH370 has been hijacked, diverted to an airfield in Pakistan or crashed into the ocean due to a malfunction, a transponder without an off switch would almost certainly not have made any difference to the lives of the passengers and crew.

But it likely would have made a huge difference for family members of passengers and crew, and saved millions of dollars and wasted time and effort on the part of search parties from all over the world. You conveniently keep ignoring this when insisting how essential it is for equipment to be easily disabled.

I'm saying that I'm against adding risk to every single flight and every single passenger's journey in order to maybe possibly reduce the risk of death and injury in an outlier type even that might happen once in a billion flights.

There are always compromises in systems design. Some of them entail a few people potentially suffering because every other person is at reduced risk.

Even if the MH370 search effort ends up costing three times as much as the AF447 search effort, that is still less than the cost of a new 777. Certainly less than the cost of real time tracking for every black box.

I'll add that real time tracking already exists with ADS-B. In any case if you pull the breaker it is all moot.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:51 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 136):
ACARS on a real high usage package is about $0.50 per message,

I know for a fact that a VHF-transmitted weather message costs a big user 2€... and more for a sat-transmitted one. Just one of the things captains should know.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 136):
The FR data's disadvantage is the low update rate compared with what's actually available... but then... beggars can be choosers.

  
Never could catch the V1 speeds on what we knew as accelerate/stop tests.
Contrail designer
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:51 pm

I have a question ( from my very ignorant position on the matter ). Search area west of Australian coast is concentrating a big effort to find some floating debris, without any positive result for several days. Considering the depth of the water in that area ( about 5.000 meters AFAIK ) wouldn't make sense to send a couple of submarines ( long range, military / nuclear submarines ) to "listen" in the area, trying to "hear" the pings of the black boxes ? I mean, the recorders are the main goal of any recovery effort, and while a floating galley or seat could confirm the fate of the aircraft, the recorders are the pieces that could, * maybe *, help us in the explanation of what happened....

Thanks in advance.

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
art
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting evomutant (Reply 140):
Quoting art (Reply 138):There seems to be a big delay between satellite images being taken and the identification of anomalies that might indicate debris. For satellite images that can be released into the public domain, why do they not stick them on the net and invite the public to review them and flag the image as of interest / not of interest?
Because they would have every wave, shadow and cloud tagged by people who don;t know what they are doing.

Other way round IMO - the images flagged as not of interest would go to the back of the queue for analysis.
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:55 pm

Quoting art (Reply 138):
. For satellite images that can be released into the public domain, why do they not stick them on the net and invite the public to review them and flag the image as of interest / not of interest?

A friend of mine is a recce / sat image interpreter. It's a very specialised job we certainly won't trust Joe Six-Pack to do.
Contrail designer
 
Backseater
Posts: 478
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:57 pm

Since the early threads I have stumbled on many references to FLxxx, for instance::
- FL450 ( and therefore "hey aircraft over its service level)!
- FL295

I cannot believe the military radar plots would be expressed that way for two good reasons:
- they would need to maintain a current data base of the pressure altitude distribution around their site within 300nm and up to 50,000ft(?)
- they certainly would not care about pressure altitude is they plan to shoot something at the target

So I assume until corrected that when we read a military radar altitude like 295R on the Butterworth radar plot, it means 29,500 feet above the WGS-84 geoid model that weapons systems typically use.

And don't expect the difference to be small. On some flights recorded with GPS, I have witnessed differences sometimes up to +/- 2,000ft.
 
mandala499
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:03 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 142):
I know for a fact that a VHF-transmitted weather message costs a big user 2€... and more for a sat-transmitted one. Just one of the things captains should know.

Is that for a simple METAR or a multiple entry weather message? ACARS 'chained messages' are hideously expensive I hear...  
I have the AeroH+ price for the satcom portion somewhere.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 143):
Considering the depth of the water in that area ( about 5.000 meters AFAIK ) wouldn't make sense to send a couple of submarines ( long range, military / nuclear submarines ) to "listen" in the area, trying to "hear" the pings of the black boxes ?

If I remember correctly, the pingers are on the Medium Frequency Sonar, and not on the low frequency. Towed Array sonars in the military subs are generally low frequency (used to detect at longer distances) but data is slower to acquire to become a target track. Once you go to the Bow Sonar or Conformal Array sonars, you simply have to be VERY SLOW to find it... and bear in mind you have a blind spot... so each area you have to slow down... listen, then go on for a few minutes at speed, then slow down, if you have a bearing to a contact... or you turn and listen to your blindspot... and repeat a few times, before you go on to the next area... And also you have to be at the right depth layer too... an inversion could simply hide the damn thing even if it's right next to you in a different depth layer of temperature and salinity. It could be cheaper to simply put an MF towed array from a boat (I think the Perrys have these in Royal Australian Navy), and just go slow enough so the array can be below the depth layer... this one could be cheaper and may even be faster to use to search for it.
BUT, remember, the pinger isn't very loud... it's used for terminal area search and pinpointing... you need to be in the general area first before you look for the pinger. That's why the wreckage debris is more important at the moment...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:06 pm

Quoting art (Reply 138):
For satellite images that can be released into the public domain, why do they not stick them on the net and invite the public to review them and flag the image as of interest / not of interest?

For the same reason we don't have untrained people triaging CAT scans or MRTs.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 145):
A friend of mine is a recce / sat image interpreter. It's a very specialised job we certainly won't trust Joe Six-Pack to do.

  
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
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cougar15
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43

Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:08 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 143):
I have a question ( from my very ignorant position on the matter ). Search area west of Australian coast is concentrating a big effort to find some floating debris, without any positive result for several days. Considering the depth of the water in that area ( about 5.000 meters AFAIK ) wouldn't make sense to send a couple of submarines

Germany anounced today that they will be sending a couple of navy frigates to support the search efforts. These are equiped with very hightech Mini Subs (source T-Online.de) to scan the ocean floor! Guess it will be a while before they reach the WA coast though!

[Edited 2014-03-23 09:10:18]
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