User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5047
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:17 pm

Quoting COOEE (Reply 42):
I believe the pilots instigated the turn back to land in Malaysia, but hypoxia rapidly set in. I think it could explain the random odd "Goodnight sign off call" due to onset hypoxia ( hypoxic impaired decision making)

The big difference between this and the Helios scenario is that the 777 has a system which alerts you when the cabin altitude exceeds 10.000 ft. It is a warning EICAS with flashing red light in front of both pilots and a siren. You'd have to be deaf and blind to miss it.

And it doesn't explain the second turn towards the south which happened later on.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1601
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:18 pm

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 43):
Not sure how we got all wrapped around the axle on the rogue pilot terrorist theory when depressurization and an unconscious crew and passengers would best explain no radio contact, no cell phone contact, and the plane flying until fuel reserves are exhausted.

The problem is that the depressurization scenario you describe does not explain why the transponder and especially the ACARS communications (but not the SATCOM transmitter itself) failed.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14588
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:19 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 37):
I'm very very far away from being someone "who knows the 777s", but having in mind incidents of the past where flight crew has spilled liquids over the panels, without any major consequence ( except maybe a wounded pride ), I would say that you should spill a very big quantity of liquid to cause such massive failure.... Occam's Razor comes to mind again !

Not sure what you call "without any major consequence", I would call a fire in the cockpit significant. This happened in a 737, a lot less electric than a 777.

"An earlier coffee spill by a previous flight crew member onto an avionics module in the cockpit control pedestal led to electrical short circuiting, spurious light indications, and burning of electrical components causing fumes in the cockpit and cabin. "

http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/document/pdf/TAICreport.pdf
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
COOEE
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:18 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:20 pm

Yes I see, no discussion on the possibility - I give up you win.
you all want something dramatic and easily solved.
This one will take years - there will be norm black box data - no voice, other than flight systems.
over and out..
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:21 pm

Quoting checksixx (Reply 47):
This is what was released: ""We have to assume beyond any reasonable doubt that MH370 has been lost and that none of those on board survived," Malaysian Airlines told family members of the missing passengers.

But's not all that was released. The Inmarsat data points to an area in the southern Indian Ocean beyond the reach of land with the remaining fuel.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:22 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 16):
I find it shocking that they won't release the cargo manifest! They are hiding something,

Apparently, I need to repeat this in every thread.

International Convention on Civil Aviation, Annex 13

"OBJECTIVE OF THE INVESTIGATION

3.1 The sole objective of the investigation of an accident or incident shall be the prevention of accidents and incidents. It is not the purpose of this activity to apportion blame or liability.

3.2 The State of Occurrence shall take all reasonable measures to protect the evidence and to maintain safe custody of the aircraft and its contents for such a period as may be necessary for the purposes of an investigation. Protection of evidence shall include the preservation, by photographic or other means of any evidence which might be removed, effaced, lost or destroyed. Safe custody shall include protection against further damage, access by unauthorized persons, pilfering and deterioration".

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
I think that is improper to do so at this stage as it has third party names, address, and contact information on it.
Quoting Pihero (Reply 23):
I agree. Don't feed the trolls

  
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:23 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 34):
A very simple question for people who know 777s.....

Could a split beverage on the centre console take out the FMC/TCAS/Radio and cause smoke in the cockpit ?

I could see it interfering with the radios (and I believe it has happened a few times, though not on the 777). But I have a very hard time believe that it would cause smoke.

Quoting COOEE (Reply 42):
hypoxia rapidly set in.

Hypoxia does not rapidly set in, unless it's an explosive decompression, which you know by other signs so that you can get your mask on. In order for hypoxia to sneak up on you, you'd have to also disregard the cabin altitude alarm, which sounds at an altitude low enough that you should still be fully alert.

Also to turn back to Malaysia in the event of a decompression would not make sense - the priority is to descend to lower altitude and then figure out where you're diverting to.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
garpd
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:27 pm

Quoting COOEE (Reply 53):
Yes I see, no discussion on the possibility - I give up you win.
you all want something dramatic and easily solved.
This one will take years - there will be norm black box data - no voice, other than flight systems.
over and out..

It's not about what we want!

It's about what fits the profile. And your theory does not.
It cannot explain the transponder stopping its transmissions. It does not explain how the plane ended up in the Indian Ocean.

Had it flown a dead straight line after the westerly turn, I'd be all for your theory.

Forgetting of course how much more obvious a pressurisation problem is announced on the 777 flight deck which would require a deaf and dumb pilot to not notice. The warnings also come much earlier with plenty of time for the crew to react. But... I suppose they could have both been out of the cockpit, dancing in the isles. Right?
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
CBRboy
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:03 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:27 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 34):
One reason for erratic tracks

Zeke I'm not clear why you would refer to 'erratic tracks' - it seems to me that the available information about MH370's path shows quite precise and clearly commanded tracks?
 
COOEE
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:18 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:33 pm

Ok I see all your points
But could ( bear with me ) hypoxia set in to a point where turning off the ACARS or ignoring EICAS flashing alarms makes sense to the crew. "explaining the second turn towards the south" has anyone considered that it could just be all due to impaired and rapidly failing judgement..
 
captainx
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:06 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:34 pm

That LEFT turn south after passing Indonesia was human initiated. Immersat said speed was maintained at about 350kts on that last track. I believe one of the pilots is responsible and the plane was fine.
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:36 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 55):
3.1 The sole objective of the investigation of an accident or incident shall be the prevention of accidents and incidents. It is not the purpose of this activity to apportion blame or liability.

Whoops, yes. Determining probable cause is just a step to that end.
 
GZed
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:21 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:39 pm

Quoting COOEE (Reply 42):
Why is everyonepromoting hijacking or suicide, just does not make sense - I believe the pilots instigated the turn back to land in Malaysia, but hypoxia rapidly set in.

The huge problem with your theory is that it does not explain why the VAMPI and MEKAR waypoints were entered. These points are to the west of Malaysia and show the aircraft heading North-West, after by-passing landing opportunities.

A turn back due to de-pressurisation would have only required the pilots to enter waypoints to their preferred landing site - certainly not including VAMPI and MEKAR. If the pilots were unconscious before overflying Malaysia, who entered the VAMPI and MEKAR waypoints and why?

This link shows one possible flight path leading up to the final turn to the left, which roughly fits with what we know so far. The track out of PEN followed by VAMPI and MEKAR are known facts, based on primary radar:
http://skyvector.com/?ll=4.917292074...R:F.WM.NILAM:F.VO.IGOGU:F.VC.TOPIN
 
COOEE
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:18 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm

Well it seems its in the Southern Ocean, and if the ships get to confirm the debris as being from MH370 - and the Americans get to haul up the black boxes, we will still be arguing on causes. I'm not a pilot just a supporter of anyone who fly for a living. forgive me any rant. I'm just trying - like anyone else here to make sense out of this bizarre accident. I do enjoy everyones contribution and knowledge they bring to the blog - Regards Z
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:41 pm

Quoting captainx (Reply 60):
Immersat said speed was maintained at about 350kts on that last track. I believe one of the pilots is responsible and the plane was fine.

No, their analysis was done on 400kt and 450kt possible speeds since that is the data they had from other T7s on similar routes at the time.

http://i.imgur.com/KP5Zyud.png

The 450kt (GS I'm assuming) was the closer match.

This was provided by the Ministry of Transport Malaysia:

Quote:
INFORMATION PROVIDED TO MH370 INVESTIGATION BY UK AIR ACCIDENTS INVESTIGATION BRANCH (AAIB)
25/03/14
On 13 March we received information from UK satellite company Inmarsat indicating that routine automatic communications between one of its satellites and the aircraft could be used to determine several possible flight paths.
Inmarsat UK has continued to refine this analysis and yesterday the AAIB presented its most recent findings, which indicate that the aircraft flew along the southern corridor.
As you have heard, an aircraft is able to communicate with ground stations via satellite.
If the ground station has not heard from an aircraft for an hour it will transmit a 'log on / log off' message, sometimes referred to as a ‘ping’, using the aircraft’s unique identifier. If the aircraft receives its unique identifier it returns a short message indicating that it is still logged on. This process has been described as a “handshake” and takes place automatically.
From the ground station log it was established that after ACARS stopped sending messages, 6 complete handshakes took place.
The position of the satellite is known, and the time that it takes the signal to be sent and received, via the satellite, to the ground station can be used to establish the range of the aircraft from the satellite. This information was used to generate arcs of possible positions from which the Northern and Southern corridors were established.
Refined analysis from Inmarsat
In recent days Inmarsat developed a second innovative technique which considers the velocity of the aircraft relative to the satellite. Depending on this relative movement, the frequency received and transmitted will differ from its normal value, in much the same way that the sound of a passing car changes as it approaches and passes by. This is called the Doppler effect. The Inmarsat technique analyses the difference between the frequency that the ground station expects to receive and that actually measured. This difference is the result of the Doppler effect and is known as the Burst Frequency Offset.
The Burst Frequency Offset changes depending on the location of the aircraft on an arc of possible positions, its direction of travel, and its speed. In order to establish confidence in its theory, Inmarsat checked its predictions using information obtained from six other B777 aircraft flying on the same day in various directions. There was good agreement.
While on the ground at Kuala Lumpur airport, and during the early stage of the flight, MH370 transmitted several messages. At this stage the location of the aircraft and the satellite were known, so it was possible to calculate system characteristics for the aircraft, satellite, and ground station.
During the flight the ground station logged the transmitted and received pulse frequencies at each handshake. Knowing the system characteristics and position of the satellite it was possible, considering aircraft performance, to determine where on each arc the calculated burst frequency offset fit best.
The analysis showed poor correlation with the Northern corridor, but good correlation with the Southern corridor, and depending on the ground speed of the aircraft it was then possible to estimate positions at 0011 UTC, at which the last complete handshake took place. I must emphasise that this is not the final position of the aircraft.
There is evidence of a partial handshake between the aircraft and ground station at 0019 UTC. At this time this transmission is not understood and is subject to further ongoing work.
No response was received from the aircraft at 0115 UTC, when the ground earth station sent the next log on / log off message. This indicates that the aircraft was no longer logged on to the network.
Therefore, some time between 0011 UTC and 0115 UTC the aircraft was no longer able to communicate with the ground station. This is consistent with the maximum endurance of the aircraft.
This analysis by Inmarsat forms the basis for further study to attempt to determine the final position of the aircraft. Accordingly, the Malaysian investigation has set up an international working group, comprising agencies with expertise in satellite communications and aircraft performance, to take this work forward.
In Annex I (attached) there are three diagrams, showing:
Doppler correction contributions
This diagram shows the Doppler contributions to the burst frequency offset.

MH370 measured data against predicted tracks
The blue line is the burst frequency offset measured at the ground station for MH370.
The green line is the predicted burst frequency offset for the southern route, which over the last 6 handshakes show close correlation with the measured values for MH370.
The red line is the predicted burst frequency offset for the northern route, which over the last 6 handshakes does not correlate with the measured values for MH370.

Example southern tracks
This shows the southern tracks for a ground speed of 400 and 450 knots ground speed. It should be noted that further work is required to determine the aircraft speed and final position.


The process they describe is absolutely novel. They are looking for ~100Hz differences in a 1600MHz carrier, that's 6 millionths of a percentage point difference - noise, by any other name.

[Edited 2014-03-25 05:45:08]
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
alhena
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:30 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:41 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 32):

Quoting FlyingTurtle, thread 44, # 206 :
"Que outras possam viver" scribbled on the margin. "That others may live."


"So that others may live" is also the beautiful motto of the US Coastguard, isn't it ?


"Para que outros possam viver"

It's the lemma of the pelicano sqaudron of the brazilian AF, responsible for SAR.

 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1601
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:42 pm

Quoting COOEE (Reply 59):
But could ( bear with me ) hypoxia set in to a point where turning off the ACARS or ignoring EICAS flashing alarms makes sense to the crew

Turning off ACARS communications is an obscure setting buried in the FMS menus. It is very unlikely that you would turn it off by accident.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 64):
The 450kt (GS I'm assuming) was the closer match.

Yes, based on the graph you supplied the frequency (Doppler) shift of the MH 370 signal is consistent with the aircraft having a 450 knot speed.

[Edited 2014-03-25 05:43:34]

[Edited 2014-03-25 05:44:04]
 
User avatar
garpd
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:42 pm

Quoting COOEE (Reply 59):
Ok I see all your points
But could ( bear with me ) hypoxia set in to a point where turning off the ACARS or ignoring EICAS flashing alarms makes sense to the crew. "explaining the second turn towards the south" has anyone considered that it could just be all due to impaired and rapidly failing judgement..

Technically, and as far as I understand it: Perhaps.

Once hypoxic, you can end up doing things you might not ordinarily do. Mostly however its about the inability to think straight or perform normal tasks (depending how hypoxic you are)

However, for the pilots to get to the stage where they cannot communicate or follow memory items, the pressurisation system would have to be inoperative so that it does not sound an alarm early on.

Only then is it concievable that the crew may have inadvertently switched the transponder to standby while attempting to squawk an emergency code. Then, one of them turns the plane around, not thinking clearly enough to put his mask on or begin a descent.

Too many ifs there, IMHO.
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
User avatar
Gonzalo
Posts: 1838
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:48 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 52):
Not sure what you call "without any major consequence", I would call a fire in the cockpit significant. This happened in a 737, a lot less electric than a 777.

I was referring to a couple of incidents involving a 777 and a 767, the former a United bird ( the latter I can't remember now ), where they have, in both cases, no real consequence ( no fumes, no EICAS notifications, nothing ). Both incidents were only known because the humor involved was enough to being posted as a funny topic in "some aviation / pilots forums"...

But as I said before, I'm very very far away from having any knowledge about how the console of a 777 would react if you spill your soda on it.... I just have the hunch ( and the hope !!!! ) that such a sofisticated and important piece of technology, capable to control a multimillion dollar wide body jet, and keep safe hundreds of souls, *should be* capable to withstand a reasonable amount of liquid spilled over ( by reasonable, I mean your average soda can, or cup of coffe...in other words, the amount and type of liquid that any crew could accidentally, unintentionally, spill..... if you take your garden hose, or a gallon of sulphuric acid to test it, probably the result will be ugly ).... I hope someone can jump and give us a better idea anyway.

Rgds.
G .
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
ExpatExp
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:30 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:50 pm

Quoting skopsko (Reply 21):
Is it true that the pilot's wife and children disappeared a day before the flight?

This question has been asked and addressed a number of times in this series of threads, most recently about five hours ago (just scroll back). I don't remember exactly what happened, but it was found to be nothing unusual (IIRC the family was not actually missing).

Quoting Pihero (Reply 32):
"So that others may live" is also the beautiful motto of the US Coastguard, isn't it ?

Not the USCG, which is "Semper Paratus". Might be something else?
 
COOEE
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:18 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:51 pm

Retrieving the black box after such a long flight would only reveal the last 120 minutes of voice. Would there be any other recorded date in the box for flight data going back to those earlier hors out of KL?
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18244
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:53 pm

Quoting checksixx (Reply 47):
We DO NOT know the aircraft crashed anywhere. There is no evidence of that yet. The Inmarsat data everyone is talking about has not been shared or released.

The Inmarsat data has been analysed and peer-reviewed by experts. It is clear, BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT, that MH370 took the southern track and ran out of fuel thousands of miles from any possible landing place.

Quoting checksixx (Reply 47):
We have no idea if terrorism was or was not involved.

Correct, and in terms of finding the plane, doesn't matter at this point.

Quoting checksixx (Reply 47):
We have no evidence of any kind regarding the aircraft or its passengers directly.

We do. It's the Inmarsat data and the fact that every country along the northern track said they had not detected an unidentified plane flying over their territory.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 49):
Even a perfect ditching would mean everyone has perished by this point.

I'd like to know under what circumstances a 'perfect ditching' could be made but the pilots couldn't communicate, fly to an airport or attempt a crash landing on land or in shallow water.   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:55 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 71):
I'd like to know under what circumstances a 'perfect ditching' could be made but the pilots couldn't communicate, fly to an airport or attempt a crash landing on land or in shallow water.

I agree, I am only talking about discrediting the idea that the aircraft didn't crash and that people are alive.

I mean, there WAS that Delta Dart that perfectly crash landed itself after the pilots ejected...  
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:58 pm

Quoting COOEE (Reply 59):
But could ( bear with me ) hypoxia set in to a point where turning off the ACARS or ignoring EICAS flashing alarms makes sense to the crew.

Perhaps, but in order to get to that point you'd have to have many other failures in either warning systems, procedures or common sense. As I said before, the cabin altitude alarm goes off before hypoxia should become an issue (roughly 10,000 feet, which is well within the tolerable range for a person). So you have to ignore that when you're not hypoxic in order to get to the point where you could ignore it due to the effects of hypoxia. You'd also have to ignore the guidance that says that the first thing to do when the cabin altitude alarm goes off is to put on your oxygen mask (and that goes to common sense as well). In the event of a rapid decompression, you'll definitely know it, and the first thing you'll want to do is put on your mask, which you will have time to do - the only case in which you might not have time is a truly explosive decompression, but those don't tend to leave the airplane flyable for very long due to structural issues.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18244
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:08 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 72):
I agree, I am only talking about discrediting the idea that the aircraft didn't crash and that people are alive.

Yes, I understood that, I was agreeing with you. Maybe not clearly enough!   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:10 pm

Quoting ExpatExp (Reply 69):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 32):
"So that others may live" is also the beautiful motto of the US Coastguard, isn't it ?

Not the USCG, which is "Semper Paratus". Might be something else?

Quick research brought the motto of the USAF Pararescue Teams, later taken by the USN rescue divers.
"That others may live" became "So others may live"
What better motto for those lives are dedicated to others, and "Para que oultros possam viver" is along that creed.
Hats off to them.
Contrail designer
 
COOEE
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:18 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:15 pm

Thanks Mir. Yes the hypoxic idea does have flaws - but I can only ponder why Helios 522 did not report the same alerts or putting masks on. I'm only trying to troubleshoot the more unconsidered outcomes. Would the pressure alert go off if the craft never got to pressurise as it climbed out from KL. I'm hoping there would be an alert. Could there be a slower decompression at altitude that would not trigger an alert?
Again that "goodnight" sign off is strange - does not indicate a co-pilot wearing an oxygen mask or in any crisis situation. And those way points. Was the craft tracked to making each point then turning to make a new waypoint. Quite an erratic course. Whatever the cause - the plane it seemed flew its full fuel course unaltered - once pointed south.
 
timothy31388
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 12:14 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:16 pm

Quoting skopsko (Reply 21):

No, that is not true. The family is keeping a low profile for obvious reasons, and also, there were no marital problems between the Captain and his wife.
TJJINDI
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:19 pm

Quoting COOEE (Reply 76):
I can only ponder why Helios 522 did not report the same alerts or putting masks on. I'm only trying to troubleshoot the more unconsidered outcomes. Would the pressure alert go off if the craft never got to pressurise as it climbed out from KL. I'm hoping there would be an alert. Could there be a slower decompression at altitude that would not trigger an alert?

Helios xpdr kept working since it does not breathe

Yes it would go off

No there could not be
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5739
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:20 pm

Quoting COOEE (Reply 70):
Retrieving the black box after such a long flight would only reveal the last 120 minutes of voice. Would there be any other recorded date in the box for flight data going back to those earlier hors out of KL?

Although it does not contain voice data, there is often also a QAR (quick access recorder), mainly for solving maintenance problems. This one could go back even further than the FDR, perhaps for several days. In the case of AF447, the relevant parts were still readable.

Quoting ExpatExp (Reply 69):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 75):

I agree it's a great motto.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
AirKorea
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:18 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:22 pm

7 tricks MH 370 pilots did to blind the stupid (MA, CH, VI, IN, IN, TH)
My speculation with all news, data and information around MH 370 is that it is at least one pilot who was involved in the MH 370 crash as an act of human intervention ; Pilot(s)’ eventual suicide followed by sabotage and hijack by themselves

And those 7 tricks at least one pilot did.
1. Flying the plane which experienced wing accident two years ago -> Showing there had been mechanical problem in aircraft, but, in fact, not.
2. Flying the plane heading to China -> showing there had been the possibility of terrorism of Uighur against China
3. Turning left side in the border of Malaysia and Vietnamese sea -> a sign of fly back due to some problem in the airplane, but actually not
4. Climbing up to 40,000ft and descending down to 12,000ft -> showing there had been disturbance in the cockpit such as fighting and scrap, but actually pilots did to dodge radar.
5. Flying to the Malacca strait (North West of Penang in Malaysia) -> showing the plane had been hijacked by someone to the Middle East and Central Asia, but not.
6. Heading to South bound to Indian Ocean -> it is the most remote sea area, with little or no flights and ships on voyage. And there has been no big island with radar system. In short, nobody finds it
7. With no fuel, smooth downhill to the water -> No big blast in the air or a column of water means it is not to be seen in U.S satellite watch
 
GZed
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:21 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:25 pm



Referring to the recently published "MH370 measured data against predicted tracks" graphic above, can I ask our SATCOM and radar experts on the forum to comment on these anomalies seen on the blue line?

1. Between 18:25 - 18:30 UTC the measured line shows 3 pings in quick succession. What do we make of that?

2. The 5th ping at 18:25 UTC shows a significant deviation away from the predicted result. Does it indicate a more Easterly or Westerly position, or something else?

3. The 2nd and 3rd pings deviate away from the predicted results, and yet MH370 was still flying its planned route at this stage. Why would the results be off? Does this possibly suggest that the Inmarsat modem on-board was not performing as expected?

4. Quoting from INFORMATION PROVIDED TO MH370 INVESTIGATION BY UK AIR ACCIDENTS INVESTIGATION BRANCH (AAIB) 25/03/14
"There is evidence of a partial handshake between the aircraft and ground station at 0019 UTC. At this time this transmission is not understood and is subject to further ongoing work."

This is only 8 mins after the last successful handshake. This seems strange considering the 5 previous ping gaps were more than and hour. Could this somehow signify that the aircraft was in the water?

[Edited 2014-03-25 06:30:37]
 
JimJupiter
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:28 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:28 pm

Quoting AirKorea (Reply 80):
7 tricks MH 370 pilots did to blind the stupid (MA, CH, VI, IN, IN, TH)

Might be my lack of English, but I did not understand a thing in this post.  
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
jox
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:39 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:32 pm

Quoting GZed (Reply 81):
2. The 5th ping at 18:25 UTC shows a significant deviation away from the predicted result. Does it indicate a more Easterly or Westerly position, or something else?

I guess the label "Possible turn" might indicate what they are thinking themselves. I would guess that the doppler shift would vary slightly if the aircraft is turning at the exact moment when they measure.
 
panampaul
Posts: 229
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:01 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:34 pm

I don't see this covered yet so adding info on search update. It sounds like it is rather treacherous in the search region.

Australia Suspends MH370 Search, Citing ‘Horrendous’ Conditions
India Calls Off Its Efforts


Quote:
The search for the wreckage of the ill-fated Malaysia Airlines jetliner in the southern Indian Ocean was temporarily suspended Tuesday. Australian officials, citing “horrendous” weather, temporarily halted operations in the remote and treacherous seas where it is believed the plane crashed.

At a news briefing Tuesday at Pearce Air Force Base, David Johnston, Australia’s defense minister, reported that no debris has yet been recovered despite multiple sighting reports from spotters....

,
 
theaviator380
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:44 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:34 pm

Quoting AirKorea (Reply 80):

I don't want to sound very disrespectful towards either of the pilots, however to add to your 7 points,

8. Chosen night flight with No moon on the night, so it's dark everywhere.
9. Having newly trained and young co-pilot, easy to manipulate and disguise him.
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:34 pm

Quoting GZed (Reply 81):
3. The 2nd and 3rd pings deviate away from the predicted results, and yet MH370 was still flying its planned route at this stage. Why would the results be off? Does this possibly suggest that the Inmarsat modem on-board was not performing as expected?

4. Quoting from INFORMATION PROVIDED TO MH370 INVESTIGATION BY UK AIR ACCIDENTS INVESTIGATION BRANCH (AAIB) 25/03/14
"There is evidence of a partial handshake between the aircraft and ground station at 0019 UTC. At this time this transmission is not understood and is subject to further ongoing work."

This is only 8 mins after the last successful handshake. This seems strange considering the 5 previous ping gaps were more than and hour. Could this somehow signify that the aircraft was in the water?

Re 3: The predicted tracks are based on other T7 aircraft with Inmarsat Classic Aero equipped flying those tracks or approximately those tracks at the same time, or at a similar point in time where the sat was at the same spot in its orbit. Since we can reasonably assume that MH370 was the only 777 flying KUL-PEK at the time, you would expect the deviation. The graph is pretty clear, they did not say "predicted: KUL-PEK departure followed by diversion over peninsula and then heading north", only predicted: north / south.

Re 4: Could mean a power failure to the SATCOM modem, as generators failed and systems shut down due to fuel starvation. They have not released the meaning of the partial handshake and I don't think they quite understand it themselves yet. No doubt they will attempt to replicate the conditions that would cause it.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5739
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:35 pm

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 85):
9. Having newly trained and young co-pilot, easy to manipulate and disguise him.

10. Drugging him so he does not notice the crazy compass heading. 


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
rc135x
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:46 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:36 pm

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 82):
Might be my lack of English, but I did not understand a thing in this post.  

I believe the poster is elaborating reasons why he thinks one of the pilots intentionally hijacked his own airplane (fact -> rationale).
KC-135A, A(RT), D, E, E(RT), Q, R, EC-135A, C, G, L, RC-135S, U, V, W, X, TC-135S, W
 
jox
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:39 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:38 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 86):
Re 4: Could mean a power failure to the SATCOM modem, as generators failed and systems shut down due to fuel starvation. They have not released the meaning of the partial handshake and I don't think they quite understand it themselves yet. No doubt they will attempt to replicate the conditions that would cause it.

If it hand't been for the "fact" that ACARS was off - it could have been the engine status message supposed to be sent to RR at engine shutdown?
 
User avatar
CALTECH
Posts: 3373
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:21 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:38 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 34):
A very simple question for people who know 777s.....

Could a split beverage on the centre console take out the FMC/TCAS/Radio and cause smoke in the cockpit ?

One reason for erratic tracks could be that the pilots could not see the FM, glare-shield, or displays.

Enough liquid and anything is possible. Liquids are very bad for the center pedestal.
You are here.
 
User avatar
Moose135
Posts: 3086
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:27 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:39 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 32):
"So that others may live" is also the beautiful motto of the US Coastguard, isn't it ?

No, it is the motto of the US Air Force Pararescue service. Fortunately, I never needed their services, but it was always comforting to know they were around. The USCG motto is "Semper Paratus" ("Always Ready"). But they all perform outstanding work!
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
User avatar
Gonzalo
Posts: 1838
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:40 pm

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 82):
Might be my lack of English, but I did not understand a thing in this post

I think he's talking about the countries MA : Malaysia / CH: China / VI: Vietnam / IN : Indonesia / IN : India / TH : Thailand.

In any case, the whole "7 tricks " thing is just another speculation, one more among the 1.000 that we have in this 45 threads...

Quoting GZed (Reply 81):
This is only 8 mins after the last successful handshake. This seems strange considering the 5 previous ping gaps were more than and hour. Could this somehow signify that the aircraft was in the water?

That was my thought too.... Will be great if some of our experts can jump with their view !!

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:45 pm

Quoting jox (Reply 89):
If it hand't been for the "fact" that ACARS was off - it could have been the engine status message supposed to be sent to RR at engine shutdown?

Maybe. But as we know, ACARS was off.

I imagine a momentary power failure causing the SATCOM modem to attempt to re-establish connection with the system but not being powered for long enough to complete the handshake.

Since they have been so open with this information, I expect that we will learn the meaning of the partial handshake within due time.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
JimJupiter
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:28 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:45 pm

Quoting rc135x (Reply 88):
I believe the poster is elaborating reasons why he thinks one of the pilots intentionally hijacked his own airplane (fact -> rationale).

He lost me here:

Quoting AirKorea (Reply 80):
Pilot(s)’ eventual suicide followed by sabotage and hijack by themselves

I assume it's about a perfectly executed suicide? But why bother? As a pilot, he would have known that none of those red herrings...

Quoting AirKorea (Reply 80):
wing accident
Quoting AirKorea (Reply 80):
terrorism of Uighur against China

...would convince the investigators without the wreckage being found.

Edit:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 92):
I think he's talking about the countries MA : Malaysia / CH: China / VI: Vietnam / IN : Indonesia / IN : India / TH : Thailand.

That makes sense now, thanks!



Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 92):
In any case, the whole "7 tricks " thing is just another speculation, one more among the 1.000 that we have in this 45 threads...

 checkmark 


[Edited 2014-03-25 06:48:00]
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
jox
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:39 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:51 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 93):
I imagine a momentary power failure causing the SATCOM modem to attempt to re-establish connection with the system but not being powered for long enough to complete the handshake.

Would the modem be powered from batteries in case of engines/generators failing? Maybe after a short "blip" causing a reboot?
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3276
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:01 pm

Oh please, we are back to thread number 5?

As of now there is still no conclusive evidence the debris on the south part of the predicted track are INDEED and confirmed as parts of the missing aircraft.
Also we still don't have conclusive evidence of the pilot involved in premeditated killing or highjacking the flight.

All we know is that it flew south for hours, made an erratic route changing after departing its programmed flight course..and thats it...

I though we were done with wild theories ... should I get my tin foil hat on?

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5933
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:06 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 1):
Post the contract then. $5,000 USD is insulting. It costs way more than that to repatriate a body and bury or cremate it. Five thousand for what? Going to get coffee and a meal while I wait for your sloth-like information dissemination about my deceased loved one?

You want to do something nice, then pay costs per diem or per remittance. Don't come up with an arbitrary (LOW) figure.

You do realize that everything Malaysian has been doing with the families from almost the third day has been at the direction and guidance of some of the best US and UK airline disaster assistance team leaders. Including former AA, BA, DL, CO and UA program managers.

Repatriation of bodies - fully and totally at the expense of Malaysian Airlines, and almost certainly any preparation for final interment based on the family/ person's religious beliefs or customs.

Per diem - hotel and meal costs are already being paid by Malaysian - direct billing from the hotels.

International calling charges / expenses with communicating with family back home - already being paid by Malaysian either through reimbursement or new phones provided by Malaysian to family members traveling to Australia

$5,000 is cash for incidental expenses - not for the major costs.

-----------------------------------------------

I do realize that information flow has appeared to people who know nothing about the difficulties of SAR as inconsistent.

The actual fact is that Malaysian has had very little hard information to provide to families. All the information on the search comes from government authorities - and 95% of what we read in the media and on these forums is from leaks from people with incomplete or inaccurate information.

Almost everything we hear without a person's name attached as the source of the information has been proven false.

Should the airline have been feeding the families all the false rumors? Or providing them with what little factual information there is?

The truth is that most days there is been no new information available.

Yes, it is terribly frustrating and horrible for the families to have no information.

But if there is not factual information, I'd love to hear what you propose the airline tell the families.

We've been following this story here in the DFW area with a family of one of the missing. Their frustration is with the press and the urgency they place on rumors with no evidence to support the rumors. Not with the airline.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15055
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:07 pm

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 94):

English isn't his first language of course, but what he is showing is that if the goal were simple suicide, why not just crash plane. But if the goal was to create mistrust between nations and an international incident and a mystery to be talked about for a long time to come, these "tricks" were well conceived.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:13 pm

Quoting jox (Reply 95):
Would the modem be powered from batteries in case of engines/generators failing? Maybe after a short "blip" causing a reboot?

That is something I could not possibly answer definitively. As a non-critical system, I imagine it would be one of the first things to go when power is constrained, but of course that is just speculation.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos