Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, hOMSaR

JimJupiter
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:28 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting tiong (Reply 137): For the past few days I was contemplating there must be some clue mysteriously from the number 370. The plane type is Boeing 777 = triple 7 = 3s 7 , add 0, u get 370 = MH 370. Use google earth and enter 3,70, for latitude =3 and longitude =70, you will get the location about 100nM from Maldives island to the west of Male. Weird or just coincidence.

I'd sincerely suggest you read "Foucault's Pendulum" by Umberto Eco. You might like it as much as I do.
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.

David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 149):the airlines were directed to redesign the cargo door such that, if it blew off, it would not cause structural damage to the interior - or a decompression.

The proposed redesign was to prevent a sudden pressure differential between the cabin and the cargo hold from distorting the structure. I can't see a way to prevent decompression if a door blows off!

bikerthai
Posts: 3257
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 149): I recall reading that after the Turkish Airline DC-10 crash - which resulted when a cargo door fell off causing an explosive decompression inside the cabin - that the airlines were directed to redesign the cargo door such that, if it blew off, it would not cause structural damage to the interior - or a decompression. If this is true, I can't imagine opening the door would cause structural damage to the surrounding stringers.

If this is true, then perhaps the doors are not flight load bearing. Maybe the pins are just for the pressure loads.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.

LXLucien
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:51 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting Heinkel (Reply 136):I just read in a German news website (T-Online), that American lawyers "Ribbeck Law" have filed a "million \$" law suit against Boeing and MH.

I saw this coming... pathetic! to make profit on the back of the victims and their relatives (and don't tell me they want justice to be served! they don't)
Quote "Syriana": "Beirut, it's like Paris in the Mid-East"

dc9northwest
Posts: 2270
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:33 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

I got one too:

777-239-370=168, which may or may not be a completely random number.

art
Posts: 3303
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting LXLucien (Reply 153):I saw this coming... pathetic! to make profit on the back of the victims and their relatives (and don't tell me they want justice to be served! they don't)

It's a bit early, isn't it? Couldn't they at least have waited until the possible evidence of the aircraft coming down in the sea had been checked?

[Edited 2014-03-26 12:13:50]

WarrenPlatts
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:03 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster. I've been looking closely at the two Inmarsat possible flight tracks, the 400 knot and 450 knot versions. IMO, the 450 knot track is not a great circle track; it is evidently a constant (true) heading flight track of about 187°. This is consistent with MH370 passing it's last way point, and continuing on autopilot on constant true heading. It requires active navigation, and is consistent with someone setting the controls for the heart of the Indian Ocean.

Which leads to my theory that the aircraft might have been under no active navigational control at all....

Here is my evidence: the final heading of the 400 knot flight track at 30°S, 100°E, with a true heading of 163° is just about what you would expect if the plane was under the influence of the Coriolis effect. I did a simulation of an object heading due south at the equator until it reached 30°S. The heading I calculated is 163° (See attached chart).

I overlayed the Inmarsat flight tracks on my Google Earth to show the difference. The orange track doesn't take into account any crosswinds, and as you can see, it ends up at the 30th parallel about 3° east of the 400 knot Inmarsat flight track. However, an aircraft proceeding south from the equator in the Indian ocean can expect to encounter stiff westerly winds that would tend to push the aircraft to the east. So I reran the simulation, adding a stiff crosswind of 110 km/hr from 10°S to 35°S. As you can see, it covers the 400 knot flight track just about perfectly.

The theory is that the pilots were trying to turn the a/c around but became incapacitated somehow while the a/c was still under manual control. In that case, the autopilot would be off, but the autotrim system would still be operational, and would keep the airplane flying straight. The main reason for the autotrim is to reduce the stick loads felt by the pilots when the a/c is under manual control. Thus, if a pilot takes his hands off the controls, the aircraft will merely continue to fly straight and level. With no other control beyond the autotrim, the only forces that would affect the airplane's trajectory would be the wind and the Coriolis effect, both of which would have the effect of pushing the a/c to the east.

Yes, I said the autotrim would keep the aircraft flying straight if the pilots released the controls. But, as you can see, the flight track appears to be curved. That's what the Coriolis effect does. It's like if you launched a ballistic missile due south from the equator. It would describe a ground track that curved to the left. Thus, the 400 knot Inmarsat track perfectly describes what a "zombie" plane flight path would look like.

Assuming, the above scenario is possible, the question then becomes whether it is plausible that a radical democrat and a guy about to get married would be capable of pulling off this stunt. If not, we are definitely looking in the wrong place....

Two questions:
1. Does anyone here have actual experience using airliner autotrim systems?
2. If so, is the above scenario at all plausible given the autotrim systems used in today's airliners?!?

panampaul
Posts: 229
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:01 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

Not sure if this has been covered in the preceding threads... but aren't people running out of new superlatives for "best lead ever" at this point? (yes, i'm getting cynical)

New Images of Debris Field Deliver ‘Most Credible Lead’ in Malaysia Flight 370 Search

 Quote:Officials announced another lead in the search for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 on Wednesday. Satellite images of what appears to be a debris field in the southern Indian Ocean, using images prepared by a division of Airbus and taken on Sunday, could be “the most credible lead that we have.”...

.

BruceSmith
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 10:35 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting Pihero (Reply 145):Reasonability check : Quoting jollo (Reply 140): Quoting nupogodi (Reply 111): The cargo thing is silly. Probably. But I haven't read any arguments yet that "prove" it's impossible (just very unlikely). How do you open a cargo door from inside ? Fair question as I've never thought of it.

Found a Boeing 777 flight crew operating manual on Google, from Qatar Airlines. The section on cargo doors states that the forward and aft doors can be operated from either an exterior or an interior control panel located at each door. The bulk cargo door is operated manually and opens inward. It doesn't say whether the bulk door can be opened from the inside. The main deck cargo door is operated from inside the aircraft only. All doors are powered by the ground handling bus.

So it might be able to be done, and if you can open the bulk door from inside, it opens inward, so won't get ripped off by the winds.

alhena
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:30 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

The coriolis effect as you describe it would act if there were no atmosphere. However, the airplane moves through the air, which is also rotating. Additionally the air moves towards the equator (low pressure area due to higher temperature) and is deflected to the west on the southern hemisphere due to the same coriolis effect. Thus the southern trade winds blow from SE to NW.

CaptainKramer
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:12 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

What about the possibility of Aerotoxic Syndrome? Yes another theory!

To the best of my knowledge there has never been an Aerotoxic Syndrome Event involving a B777, but there is always the possibility of a first time. It certainly can go someway to explaining the number of random course changes after the initial left turn heading change, back to Malaysia, and doesn't require the presence of a fire either.

The onset of an Aerotoxic Event, can render a Pilot incapacitated, very quickly. I watched a documentary on Youtube, "Toxic Airlines and the Aerotoxic Syndrome" in which they interviewed a Captain (Flight BU 937) of such an Aerotoxic Event. The last action he performed before losing the use of his arms, was to place the oxygen mask over his head. The flight eventually landed, but the Captain was subsequently forced to retire early, because of Aerotoxic Syndrome.

The loss of co-ordination function as a result of a an Aerotoxic Event, could explain the loss of the Transponder, as the Co-Pilot (PNF) attempts to dial in 7700 and switches it off instead. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't MH370 fly directly over Langkawi (I do remember reading a post that Langkawi was closed at the time though!) requiring a turn North first, in a tear drop manouvere, in order to then turn left to fly the base leg (performed by Captain, who is Pilot Flying) before another left turn to attempt to line up on Langkawi's runway. I appreciate runway lights wont be on, but maybe a Aerodrome beacon was available to get a fix.

At this point, while flying base leg ( Southern heading) both the Captain and Co-Pilot lose all capacity to function, completley overwhelmed by toxic fumes, The B777 continues on it's Southern trajectory towards the Indian Ocean where it runs out of fuel. The cabin crew and passengers would of had to have been overwelmed by the Toxic fumes event as well, to explain there failure to act.

Far fetched? Or Plausable? I can hear the knives being sharpened as I type this last line, but having said that Aerotoxic Syndrome has threatened the safety of Commercial Flights in the past and I am just trying to look at all the angles.

Edit : I tracked down the Documentry on Youtube : "Toxic Airlines and the Aerotoxic Syndrome" and also included the Flight Number BU 937

[Edited 2014-03-26 13:10:29]

[Edited 2014-03-26 13:24:52]

7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 156):Thus, if a pilot takes his hands off the controls, the aircraft will merely continue to fly straight and level.

777 will not stay wings level if you leave it to do what it wants -- it will roll right or left at a slow rate soon after release.

Which is not powered in flight.

WarrenPlatts
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:03 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

Doesn't matter if the airplane is moving through the air: the Coriolis effect will still happen. E.g., it has to be taken into account in long range artillery as well. Yes, air moving north to the equator get deflected to the west, hence the easterly trade winds. However, these are surface winds. They get heated up at the equator and move up, and then back south to form a return current. These then get deflected and form high level westerly winds that an airliner would encounter.

Check out the picture below (courtesy Wikipedia): note the cells from 30S to the equator, the net return current is to the south, that would cause high level westerlies to form.

WarrenPlatts
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:03 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

Isn't that exactly what the autotrim is designed to prevent? I don't doubt you sir, but is your answer a surmise, or is it based on actual piloting experience of the Boeing 777?

AR385
Posts: 6935
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting BruceSmith (Reply 158):So it might be able to be done, and if you can open the bulk door from inside, it opens inward, so won't get ripped off by the winds.

Does it say anything about getting from the main deck to the cargo bays in-flight? How about moving through the different containers in order to reach the door? Any info. on how to push baggage containers or pallets out without hitting control surfaces?

7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 163):I don't doubt you sir, but is your answer a surmise, or is it based on actual piloting experience of the Boeing 777?

I guess you do doubt me -- answer to your second question is yes.

Lindenwold
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:52 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

What would happen if both pilots became incapacitated and by some miracle a couple passengers survived. How would they get that cockpit door open?

Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

I expected that. Thanks.
Contrail designer

7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 166):What would happen if both pilots became incapacitated and by some miracle a couple passengers survived. How would they get that cockpit door open?

Anybody that has the emergency activation code can get in if the pilots are incapacitated.

flyingturtle
Posts: 5765
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

What's this code?

One day or another, somebody of us needs to enter a cockpit. Seriously.

David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down

lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 168):Anybody that has the emergency activation code can get in if the pilots are incapacitated.

I can probably guess the answer to my question is , but.. would the Flight Attendants have the emergency access code?

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!

WarrenPlatts
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:03 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

My apologies sir. I used to be a quartermaster in the Navy, and for us they were used interchangeably. cf. this dictionary definition of heading:

 Quote:the compass direction toward which a traveler or vehicle is or should be moving; course.

WarrenPlatts
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:03 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 165):I guess you do doubt me -- answer to your second question is yes.

No offense intended sir! But hey, if anyone with a second opinion wants to chime in, please feel free!

In your opinion, 7BOEING7, what exactly would happen to the a/c if the crew was incapacitated while the a/c was in manual control mode (i.e., autopilot off; autotrim on)?

Andy33
Posts: 2547
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

If you look up the accident reports on the Helios crash, where the pilots were indeed incapacitated, you'll see that the cabin crew did eventually get through the door into the flight deck, but too late to prevent the crash. As has already been mentioned in one of the previous 45 editions of this discussion, if the pilot(s) are not incapacitated they can prevent any opening of the door, with or without codes. This is obviously essential to prevent hijackers from forcing the cabin crew to open the door so the pilots can be overpowered.

Apprentice
Posts: 778
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:51 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

[QUOTE] @apprentice, I'm not sure i understood your post - are you saying mh370 did not have these bottles installed, but may have been carrying them?

where are you seeing the colour coded caps? I can just see black and silver in the photo... [/UNQUOTE]

My mistake, I didn't pay attention to "looking like this" and suposed, wrong, that second picture was the real bottle and not an img from other site. Again, sorry

Rest remain the same, 6 fire extinguisher bottles on a B777, 5 of them like the one founded.
“An4; IL18; IL6; Tu5; D10; MD11; MD83; B32; B34: B37; B744; B748; B752; B763; B772; B773; B77W; A320; A332; A333; A342; A343.
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
“CUBANA” 90 years Flying”

Dufo
Posts: 817
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:41 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

I will personally report to police anyone publicly discussing emergency procedures and debate regarding cockpit access codes.

[Edited 2014-03-26 13:51:52]
I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.

AR385
Posts: 6935
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 168):Anybody that has the emergency activation code can get in if the pilots are incapacitated.

As long as they did not use the dead bolt that they have.

 Quoting Dufo (Reply 175):I will personally report to police anyone publicly discussing emergency procedures and debate regarding cockpit access codes.

Uh? What exactly do you mean?

LTC8K6
Posts: 1582
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting AR385 (Reply 176): As long as they did not use the dead bolt that they have.

So if the pilots pass out from illness, or fumes, or whatever, with the deadbolt in place, we've lost a plane full of people? No one can get in to revive them or try to help? If there happens to be an experienced pilot available among the pax, it's just too bad?

David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

I'm pretty sure it was a rhetorical question.

AR385
Posts: 6935
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 177):So if the pilots pass out from illness, or fumes, or whatever, with the deadbolt in place, we've lost a plane full of people?

Yes you have.

 Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 177):No one can get in to revive them or try to help?

If you can break down the door, perhaps.

 Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 177): If there happens to be an experienced pilot available among the pax, it's just too bad?

Have a read a the declarations the Captain of the Ethiopian unscheduled flight to Geneva.

hivue
Posts: 2076
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 171):My apologies sir. I used to be a quartermaster in the Navy, and for us they were used interchangeably. cf. this dictionary definition of heading:

You didn't have to account for current when determining exactly where the ship was going?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.

BruceSmith
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 10:35 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting AR385 (Reply 164):Does it say anything about getting from the main deck to the cargo bays in-flight? How about moving through the different containers in order to reach the door? Any info. on how to push baggage containers or pallets out without hitting control surfaces?

Nothing in the manual at all about access from the cabin to the cargo bays, and all the photos I can find on google of the raw insides of a 777 cabin show no sign of a hatch-shape.

Couple of things I did find out from the manual covering the 2 AC busses.

• It is possible to tie the two electrical busses together from the flight deck.
• Both busses can be powered from one IDG (integrated drive generator in each engine) if one IDG and the APU are down.
• That if the pilots disconnect an IDG from the engine by pressing the respective DRIVE DISCONNECT switch, that the IDG cannot be reconnected by the flight crew.
• The RAT will shed the standby load if the RPM of the turbine drops too low. (could the RAT be damaged by debris)
• SATCOM and the right HF radio are inoperative if on the backup generators.
• The ground handling bus can be powered from the APU, but only on the ground. I assume there is an interlock somewhere, not discussed in the manual.

Reading the electrical sections of the manual, it does look possible to end up with a non-redundant bus if enough components fail or through deliberate misconfiguration. If that happens, a single overvoltage event could affect all systems.

7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 172): In your opinion, 7BOEING7, what exactly would happen to the a/c if the crew was incapacitated while the a/c was in manual control mode (i.e., autopilot off; autotrim on)?

I haven't tried it but the airplane would roll left or right until BAP (bank angle protection) at 35 degrees cut in and it would roll back to 30 degrees; after that I'm not sure if it will maintain 30 degrees of bank or roll off left or right again.

 Quoting Dufo (Reply 175):I will personally report to police anyone publicly discussing emergency procedures and debate regarding cockpit access codes.

The information so far provided is available in any operations manual of any airplane with a mechanism to lock the door -- most are available online and elsewhere, it's nosecret

 Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 177):So if the pilots pass out from illness, or fumes, or whatever, with the deadbolt in place, we've lost a plane full of people? No one can get in to revive them or try to help? If there happens to be an experienced pilot available among the pax, it's just too bad?

Not as long as the airplane is equipped with the post 9/11 ground control feature.

[Edited 2014-03-26 14:23:13]

ual747den
Posts: 1604
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting Dufo (Reply 175): I will personally report to police anyone publicly discussing emergency procedures and debate regarding cockpit access codes.

I understand what you are saying and was very surprised to see people talking so freely about these security issues and wonder who is asking the questions to begin with however I would imagine that all that information is available somewhere on the net. The most important thing for anyone to understand is that there is NO WAY to get into that cockpit door with a code or without if the cockpit crew is alive and well. That door is 100% controlled by the cockpit crew from the inside, and the only way any means of breaching that door would become available is if the cockpit crew was not responding to requests for access after far enough time has passed. If there is anyone in that cockpit alive NO ONE is getting in and any attempt to do so would result in serious action being taken up to and including death, NO JOKE.
Frontier Airlines - Low Fares Done Right

Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting Apprentice (Reply 174): Rest remain the same, 6 fire extinguisher bottles on a B777, 5 of them like the one founded.

Please check your references : AFAIK, there are eight fire extinguisher bottles, on a T7 :
2 for the engines
1 for the APU
5 for the cargo compartments
Plus one small bottle for each lavatory.

These 5 extinguishers for the holds are the reason I don't believe in cargo fire, especially in a class C compartment.
Contrail designer

flyingturtle
Posts: 5765
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 182): I haven't tried it but the airplane would roll left or right until BAP (bank angle protection) at 35 degrees cut in and it would roll back to 30 degrees; after that I'm not sure if it will maintain 30 degrees of bank or roll off left or right again.

Not intended as A vs. B bashing or flamefest... but: Is this behavior a bug or a feature?

David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down

WarrenPlatts
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:03 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting hivue (Reply 180):You didn't have to account for current when determining exactly where the ship was going?

That's a good point. It's been a couple of decades. Yes, there is the compass heading which is where the ship aims, and then there is the course that is drawn on the chart. Ordinarily, it's not a big deal, and they are practically the same, but yeah, heading into the Columbia river with strong ebb tide, you might want to make a distinction for sure!

So, actually, I did it right in my simulation, the 163° I quoted at 30°S is the heading--that doesn't take into account the effects of the crosswind. I haven't calculated the actual ground course, but I guess I should.

WarrenPlatts
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:03 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 182):I haven't tried it but the airplane would roll left or right until BAP (bank angle protection) at 35 degrees cut in and it would roll back to 30 degrees; after that I'm not sure if it will maintain 30 degrees of bank or roll off left or right again.

Thank you for the response sir. Maybe that explains some of the weird turns, if there was a fight going on in the cockpit or something....

Anyone else here try to fly a B777 with no hands?

hivue
Posts: 2076
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 185):Not intended as A vs. B bashing or flamefest... but: Is this behavior a bug or a feature?

I believe it's been mentioned in some previous part of this thread that the 777 FBW does not hold the current attitude when the yoke is centered while the 787 does (and Airbi as well when the stick is centered). Isn't that called "rate control attitude hold?" (I mean the way the airbus and the 787 do it)

It's just the way the FBW software was written, I think.

[Edited 2014-03-26 14:45:04]
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.

SimonDanger
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:51 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 187):Anyone else here try to fly a B777 with no hands?

That's funny...but about what percentage of any given T7 flight is actually done hands-on? On the one hand I would love to fly one of these aircraft but on the other I have to believe that the FBW via the FMS would be a dream to see fly.

MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting Apprentice (Reply 39):On the other way, it looks that percursion cartridges are installed, and that is not comom.

Actually in many countries the squibs fall under explosives legislation and one needs an explosive licence to handle them loose. Usually they are exempt if they are installed in a higer assembly like afire bottle.
I know that in the US you can handle and ship the squibs independently, and once I had big problems in convincing maintenance control of an American airline that I would actually commit a felony if I would handle loose squibs without such a licence according to local law. An aircaft maintenance licencde is not enough.
Therefore many European carriers only ship complete fire bottle assemblies.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

rcair1
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:39 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 182):I haven't tried it but the airplane would roll left or right until BAP (bank angle protection) at 35 degrees cut in and it would roll back to 30 degrees; after that I'm not sure if it will maintain 30 degrees of bank or roll off left or right again

So - can you try it on the next flight.
"Center - B777 would like to make a few high rate 360 turns to evaluate how the aircraft is responding to the bank angle protection feature. The turns may be left or right. I'll advise you when we roll out back on course."

"Roger B777 - maintain current flight level during your turns and let us know when you are back on course."

"Folks - this is the captain speaking. If you notice we are turning hard right and left - no worries. Were checking out a control law behaviour for some friends at airliners.net. Since we are a few minutes ahead of schedule - this will not cause you any delay."

Think it would work?

Seriously tho- I don't fly swept wing jets, but amazingly - this is something I really don't recall every having to think about. Perhaps it is so automatic to correct that I don't even notice it - but it sure 'seems' they pretty much flew straight and level - pitch was more of an issue than roll.
rcair1

jelliesR
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:46 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting Pihero (Reply 184):These 5 extinguishers for the holds are the reason I don't believe in cargo fire, especially in a class C compartment.

A lithium battery fire is self-sustaining it cannot be extinguished with normal suppression systems.

"The Ventura Aerospace aircraft fire suppression system using Cargo Foam is the only demonstrated and installed fire suppression system that is capable of suppressing a Lithium Ion battery fire. Ventura Aerospace, along with Ansul, conducted live fire tests with 192 laptops loaded in standard packaging inside an AMJ container. The fire suppression system was able to suppress the battery fire in the laptops and keep it suppressed for four hours."

This system is not installed on passenger plains, only some FedEx planes.

Lithium battery fires are class-D, it needs a specific kind of foam that is both cooling, and suppresses the packaging (wooden pallets, plastic) from melting and catching. Halon is insufficient. Things that can cause class-D fires should not be put on passenger jets, irregardless of whether it was the cause of MH370s problems or not! Perhaps that is why the cargo manifest is being suppressed.

[Edited 2014-03-26 15:24:20]

flyingturtle
Posts: 5765
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

Then it's really funny. I expected the 777 FBW logic to follow a straight trajectory.

And at any rate, I expected any V-winged airplane...

View Large View Medium

...to maintain level wings, because if one wing dips, lift on that wing will increase. I infer that from the fact that lift acts perpendicular to the wing surface.

"...and please excuse the delay, our captain has been writing up his posting for airliners.net..."

David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down

cougar15
Posts: 1431
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:10 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 189):That's funny...but about what percentage of any given T7 flight is actually done hands-on? On the one hand I would love to fly one of these aircraft but on the other I have to believe that the FBW via the FMS would be a dream to see fly.

... the first 0-45 seconds and the last 15-65 seconds - of each Flt - (and guys actually managing 65 seconds are VERY hands on... and rare in todays enviroments ..) ! !
She is a GEM to fly with a superb console 'under the windscreen´ called Autopilot ! Your onboard Gadgets take care of "" all in between....""" !!

[Edited 2014-03-26 15:30:45]

[Edited 2014-03-26 15:36:41]

[Edited 2014-03-26 15:50:36]
some you lose, others you can´t win!

7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting rcair1 (Reply 191):So - can you try it on the next flight.

Those days are behind me.

Actually, the faster you go into it the faster it springs back towards 30 degrees. BAP is one of the many checks done on every new airplane -- one of many don't try this during a revenue flight type of things.

Which getting back to the topic at hand says -- if MN370 is where everybody is looking for it now, either a "pilot" was flying it or the autopilot was programed to go there (that direction).

zeke
Posts: 14846
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 156):This is consistent with MH370 passing it's last way point, and continuing on autopilot on constant true heading. It requires active navigation, and is consistent with someone setting the controls for the heart of the Indian Ocean.

Big aircraft can be flown in track or heading, in track mode, it maintains track. No need for the FMC to be employed. All you need to do is select TRK on the MCP.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News

Lindenwold
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:52 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

CNN is reporting the 370's pinger batteries might not even be working. Something about the batteries not being stored properly. Honestly, batteries or not, I wasn't expecting them to find that black box within the next 2 weeks anyways.

[Edited 2014-03-26 15:42:37]

QualityDr
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:57 am

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting bikerthai (Reply 107):Even if you can hack your way down to the cargo bay. You would not be able to get around the containers to get to the door switch. There is no room between the container and the sidewall.

There must be good pictures (online or such) that can be shown (linked) that will illustrate this point fully for a T7. After that, then I would agree, no way to dump cargo.

There may also be good pics of the door locking mechanism, as well as data/info sheets about weight of the door, opening mechanism, etc. Anybody have such links?

QD
All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure. -- Mark Twain

Starlionblue
Posts: 19809
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

### RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46

 Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 113):Quoting nupogodi (Reply 111): It's on some of LH A340-300 as well. Don't understand the logic as Thomas cook FA said it takes up cargo space, don't see how it's viable for LH. I doubt Thomas cook carries any major commercial cargo being holiday charter.

The advantage is of course that you can cram in more seats by giving up some cargo space. If this is logical depends on route structure, markets served etc.

I'm sure LH have done the maths.
 Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 193):And at any rate, I expected any V-winged airplane... ...to maintain level wings, because if one wing dips, lift on that wing will increase. I infer that from the fact that lift acts perpendicular to the wing surface.

Sure, but the FBW system can be programmed to counteract purely aerodynamic tendencies. If memory serves a FBW Airbus will stay at any bank of 33 degrees or less if you let go. If banked at 33-66 degrees, it will roll out to 33 degrees and stay there. If above 66 degrees you're not in Normal Law anymore.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

### Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos