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WarrenPlatts
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:03 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:58 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 198):
Quoting Warren Platts (Reply 176):It only knows one thing: where "straight ahead" is. It follows only one law: Newton's 1st Law. Therefore, when it gets to 30°, it is still going to retain all the rotational velocity
Newton's 1st law is "When viewed in an inertial reference frame, an object either remains at rest or continues to move at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by an external force."

The plane is acted upon several external forces: gravity, drag and the thrust of its engines. The way you present the situation is not quite correct.

Yes, of course, you're right. I was trying to keep it as simple as possible for those guys. From the book I linked to:

 
billreid
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:00 pm

i just was reading the Telegraaf in Holland and they are reporting that experts are now convinced that the path of the aircraft was intentional. The pilot, or whoever was flying had intentionally chosen to avoid radar, and fly to a highly remote area of the world.
Not sure where and from whom they are getting this but they are now no longer considering technical problems with the aircraft. They are back on track with this was fully intentional.

Any additional reports coming out from other sources with similar?
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
markalot
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:07 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:04 pm

From the BBC

Flight MH370: 'Objects spotted' in new search area

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26786549

Now with a picture.

M a r k
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:06 pm

Quoting markalot (Reply 202):
Flight MH370: 'Objects spotted' in new search area

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26786549

Now with a picture.

To be fair they can pick any search area they want and find objects.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
rcair1
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:39 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:13 pm

Quoting art (Reply 62):
(1) issue each pilot with a password or PIN, both of which would need to be entered to switch the system off

(2) position 2 buttons in places where one pilot could not reach both and require both to be depressed simultaneously to switch the system off

Both of these are very scary to me.
- What about an incopacitate pilot.
- What if somebody screws up and doesn't put the right PIN in the a/c because - say - they switched crews.
- What about a case where 1 pilot is fighting to keep the plane in flight and cannot divert.

I do not want to make it harder to manage an emergency because of some very rare security issue that is more about informing us than saving the passengers.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 63):
I wonder how much theories posted on this website contribute to media speculation? After all, this was discussed in here a week ago.

I know my sanity checks have been reviewed. I've been contacted by more than one news organization wanting to know my theory (I've politely declined).

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 65):
Its as close to corruption as you can get without it being called such.

No. Many rich people are also very dedicated to helping in an emergency. It is not corrupt to lend your special resources in an emergency.
rcair1
 
Backseater
Posts: 478
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:16 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 199):
I'm still inclined to disregard it.

Of course, I do not claim that it is true either.
I am just noticing that sometimes we might prune the tree of possibilities a bit too quickly, even if it feels good to think that we are zeroing in on the truth faster. "Denied" is not the same as disproven by the source of the media report stating that it was a publicity stunt, or by the actual pilot involved when interviewed, or by the laws of physics, ....
 
rcair1
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:19 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 66):
words like " zombie", the "drink", "auger" ( not *augur*, btw ).

  

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 180):
Now consider an autopilot off, zombified 787, with no one at the controls.

 I strongly object to this kind of language. We are not talking about 'zombies' or non-entities crashing.  

We are talking about over 200 souls who lost their life in a tragic event.

This is an open and burning wound for those 'involved' from the friends and families of the passengers and crews to the people involved in the SAR (If you think emergency response people are not impacted by this - you are wrong).

Let's discuss it professionally and with compassion.
-rcair1

[Edited 2014-03-28 08:20:38]
rcair1
 
tim73
Posts: 93
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:20 pm

"Skynews: Missing Plane: Image Shows Objects In Sea."

The sky is blue too. Thanks for the info  
 
Summa767
Posts: 1848
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:21 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 203):
To be fair they can pick any search area they want and find objects.

There is a lot of rubbish in the sea, that is for sure. However, relating to the only object in the new search area of which we have a picture, and without knowing the scale, it does seem to have the shape of a nearside aileron.
Whether an aileron would float, I don't know..
 
Trin
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 4:45 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:22 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 145):
If the plane was traveling faster than previously thought before radar contact was lost, then it would fly a shorter distance once radar contact was lost before running out of fuel. Yet it still would end up on the last satellite arc. For it to travel a shorter distance but still end up on that same arc, it *has* to be to the northeast of where they were searching before.

This was actually posted by someone (I can't recall who - there's been so many posts) yesterday on the previous thread - about how they reckoned MH370 was travelling at the faster speed rather than the slower speed. Impressively calculated, if someone on here figured it out before/at the same time as the authorities.

I hope that they find something in the new search location. It has been too long without knowing.
 
tim73
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:28 pm

Roaring Forties and then Screaming Sixties there with 15 meter waves. Task of finding any debris is pretty much hopeless.
 
rj777
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:36 pm

This is one of the reasons I (and I'm sure many people) hate all these airlines having all these mostly white liveries. If they crash, you're looking for something that can easily be mistaken for a whale carcass, etc. Wheras, if it had a little bit more color or more originality in the design.... then it'd be slightly easier.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:44 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 208):
Whether an aileron would float, I don't know..

It doesn't look like an aileron to me... I don't know if it would float either.

Could be anything, really. But time is running out to find the wreckage. Once those ULBs die, they are looking at an operation multiple times the scale of AF447.

The best scenario right now would be to find floating wreckage, accurately predict where it impacted, and get eyes and ears underwater ASAP.

Unfortunately, this is not likely... :/
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
Trin
Posts: 167
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:49 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 212):
The best scenario right now would be to find floating wreckage, accurately predict where it impacted, and get eyes and ears underwater ASAP.

Unfortunately, this is not likely... :/

Actually, I don't share your pessimism. They never thought the resting place of H-GZCP would be found and yet it was. It took two years and private parties to continue the operation, but they did find it eventually. Human ingenuity and perseverance knows very little bounds, especially when something as major and difficult as this happens. I believe they will find this plane, and it's black boxes - although depending on the weather, waves and currents, I don't know how long it will take. Our technological advancements in recent decades have allowed us the opportunity to find and recover plane wrecks from almost any place on earth. While this one will be probably the most challenging - that conversely probably means that we will continue doggedly until the job's done.

I hope I'm wright.  
 
WarrenPlatts
Posts: 517
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:51 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 206):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 66): words like " zombie", the "drink", "auger" ( not *augur*, btw ).


Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 180):Now consider an autopilot off, zombified 787, with no one at the controls.
I strongly object to this kind of language. We are not talking about 'zombies' or non-entities crashing.

We are talking about over 200 souls who lost their life in a tragic event.

This is an open and burning wound for those 'involved' from the friends and families of the passengers and crews to the people involved in the SAR (If you think emergency response people are not impacted by this - you are wrong).

Let's discuss it professionally and with compassion.
-rcair1


Sir, I certainly didn't coin the term--it's all over the media, and we aren't going to change that here.

Plus zombies are scary, mindless, killing machines, and an airliner with no one at the controls because the pilots are dead in a locked cockpit is a scary, mindless, killing machine, so it's an apt description.

Nevertheless, your point is well taken. Out of respect for the victims' families, I suggest using the albeit vanilla "pilotless aircraft" instead of the lurid "zombie plane" description in the future....
 
rc135x
Posts: 258
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:53 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 206):
Let's discuss it professionally and with compassion.

Well put, Sir.

The discussions are increasingly strident as well, with an escalating emphasis on the poster rather than the substance of the post. We may each have our own ideas and theories about what happened, but our goal should not be to prove *our* ideas however compatible they may be with others or with what might have happened.

In the absence of answers we are left to speculate---not prove. We can surely do that professionally, courteously, and with sensitivity toward the many people whose lives are now sadly affected by this tragedy.
KC-135A, A(RT), D, E, E(RT), Q, R, EC-135A, C, G, L, RC-135S, U, V, W, X, TC-135S, W
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:58 pm

Quoting Trin (Reply 213):
Actually, I don't share your pessimism. They never thought the resting place of H-GZCP would be found and yet it was.

Yeah but they knew practically exactly where it went down. It was, what, less than a dozen nm away from the flight path? They had great data. The search area here is so, so, so much larger. The terrain underwater is less treacherous but the weather above is more. Even if floating wreckage is found now, even with the best drift modelling it will not narrow down the impact area to something as small as AF447s was known to be.

We are hoping for a miracle here, really. I suppose you could call it pessimism, I call it realism... This is probably the most difficult SAR ever attempted for civil aviation.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:01 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 205):
Of course, I do not claim that it is true either.
I am just noticing that sometimes we might prune the tree of possibilities a bit too quickly, even if it feels good to think that we are zeroing in on the truth faster. "Denied" is not the same as disproven by the source of the media report stating that it was a publicity stunt, or by the actual pilot involved when interviewed, or by the laws of physics, ....

Nevertheless I stand by my reasons for requiring more evidence for that particular claim. If it was true and they didn't want us to know about it then i think they'd have been more vague, e.g. "can't comment", "still investigating", instead of contriving contradictory evidence. Where did the actual pilot interview appear? I only saw that a pilot had been reported as making the claim.
 
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DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:15 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 125):
@ DeltaMD90 - " It's not like it's the Indian Ocean one day, the Straits the next day, China the next day, and the Indian Ocean again." - Maybe not anymore, but that is exactly how it was during week one...

Not to rehash something from last night (my time,) but I disagree and I should have been more detailed in what I was saying. They aren't just wildly switching search zones at random, they shift the search zones as more and more evidence comes available and I would think they are getting closer and closer to finding it (if they ever do.) It's not random and haphazard like many seem to believe

It started with the point of last known contact... logical enough, no? Then as radar was analyzed, we switched to the Straits. Then we found out about the pings so we had a arc like area north and south so we started searching there. Inmarsat concluded due to doppler effect and a bunch of other things I don't understand that it had to have gone south for X hours so we shifted focus there. Now a bit of new evidence refined it even more.

That is far different than them searching at X, then randomly searching Y thousands of miles away, then deciding to give Z a try. There is a method to the madness and hopefully that will yield results

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 172):
My suggestion, they should give the data to several reputed university professors and let them run several models.

If I remember correctly, they had their data peer reviewed. We aren't talking about a.netters here, we're talking about some very very intelligent, non-conspiratorial people here. I'm sure they do like any good scientist does and has others try and replicate their results looking for weaknesses in their conclusions
 
spacecadet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:18 pm

Quoting markalot (Reply 202):
Now with a picture.

Well that's at least something, as in an actual object, rather than what I suspected were mostly just whitecaps in the earlier satellite photos with "hundreds" of objects in them. That's a man-made object that does not look weather-beaten by being in the water for an extended period of time - it looks like it was put there recently (at least what we can see in this shot). Seems promising.

[Edited 2014-03-28 09:19:50]
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:29 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 217):
Where did the actual pilot interview appear?

From thread #5 (feels like eons ago)

User currently offlineloladaisydukes From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted Sat Mar 8 2014 15:27:31 your local time (2 weeks 5 days 8 hours 48 minutes ago) and read 91883 times:

MISSING MH370: Pilot: I established contact with plane

'INTERFERENCE': Pilot in another plane was flying 30 minutes ahead of MH370

SEPANG: A BOEING 777 pilot, who was flying 30 minutes ahead of the missing Malaysia Airlines aircraft, said he established contact with MH370 minutes after he was asked to do so by Vietnamese air traffic control.
The captain, who asked to not be named, said his plane, which was bound for Narita, Japan, was far into Vietnamese airspace when he was asked to relay, using his plane's emergency frequency, to MH370 for the latter to establish its position, as the authorities could not contact the aircraft.

"We managed to establish contact with MH370 just after 1.30am and asked them if they have transferred into Vietnamese airspace.

"The voice on the other side could have been either Captain Zaharie (Ahmad Shah, 53,) or Fariq (Abdul Hamid, 27), but I was sure it was the co-pilot.

"There were a lot of interference... static... but I heard mumbling from the other end.

"That was the last time we heard from them, as we lost the connection," he told the New Sunday Times.

He said those on the same frequency at the time would have heard the exchange.
This, he said, would include vessels on the waters below.
He said he thought nothing of it, as the occurrence (of losing contact) was normal, until it was established that MH370 never landed.

"If the plane was in trouble, we would have heard the pilot making the Mayday distress call. But I am sure that, like me, no one else up there heard it.

"Following the silence, a repeat request was made by the Vietnamese authorities to try establishing contact with them."


Document is from the Straits Times newspaper published on 09 March 2014
http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big-...ane-pilot-contacted-mh370-just-it-

Plus two questions:
- what would be the purpose of making up that story? Clearly the pilot does not want to be in the limelight.
- how did they know on 09 March that the air to air link would be of bad quality because it is only becoming more and more accepted that the airplane descended to a low altitude on its way to Kota Bharu, If both had been at FL350 30min apart as could be expected, the comm should has worked just fine.

[Edited 2014-03-28 09:55:25]
 
Trin
Posts: 167
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:33 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 219):
Well that's at least something, as in an actual object, rather than what I suspected were mostly just whitecaps in the earlier satellite photos with "hundreds" of objects in them. That's a man-made object that does not look weather-beaten by being in the water for an extended period of time - it looks like it was put there recently (at least what we can see in this shot). Seems promising.

What made you think that the satellite images released were mostly whitecaps? I've looked at every image they've released thus far, and most of them to me look like trash/debris - and certainly manmade and not whitecaps. Usually, if it's whitecaps there are enough of them in regular succession that it is easy to identify them as patterned by the wind. In the case of the recent satellite images released from the search areas, what they've shown is manmade IMO.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:50 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 218):
If I remember correctly, they had their data peer reviewed. We aren't talking about a.netters here, we're talking about some very very intelligent, non-conspiratorial people here. I'm sure they do like any good scientist does and has others try and replicate their results looking for weaknesses in their conclusions

I am not questioning their intelligence or motives. There are lot of institutions doing advanced research on these topics, whether it is satellite communications or oceanography. They have the freedom to think outside the box.

So having several teams run models simultaneously saves time than come up with one model, search for two weeks and move on to next model.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:50 pm

This says the report is garbage:

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 220):
"He said those on the same frequency at the time would have heard the exchange".

121.5 is widely monitored, and the contact would by now have been confirmed by multiple sources.


And how do you get this

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 220):
"The voice on the other side could have been either Captain Zaharie (Ahmad Shah, 53,) or Fariq (Abdul Hamid, 27), but I was sure it was the co-pilot.

from this?

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 220):
I heard mumbling from the other end.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
davidzill
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:03 pm

CNN now reporting aircraft have spotted floating debris in the new search area. Whether it's from MH370 or not, that's up to the experts to decide.
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3582
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:07 pm

Quoting Trin (Reply 221):
What made you think that the satellite images released were mostly whitecaps?

See my reply earlier in the thread; no point repeating it. I will say that I'm not the only one here who thought the same thing, and that includes people who seem to have more experience than I do in satellite imaging.

Regardless, we now know that those "debris fields" were hundreds of miles away from where this airplane must be, so it's academic. (And no, they didn't float or get blown down there.)

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 223):
And how do you get this

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 220):
"The voice on the other side could have been either Captain Zaharie (Ahmad Shah, 53,) or Fariq (Abdul Hamid, 27), but I was sure it was the co-pilot.

from this?

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 220):
I heard mumbling from the other end.

"Mumbling" can mean different things. It could mean he just couldn't understand what was being said because of the static, but could hear the voice. When I tell someone to stop "mumbling", it just means I want them to talk louder and more clearly - but I can certainly tell they're talking and identify the sound of their voice.

But I agree, we'd likely have heard more about this if there was anything to it.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:15 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 223):
This says the report is garbage:

Again, I am not saying it is true.
But it is an early piece of the puzzle that seems to be remarkably compatible with what we now know.
To me it makes sense to keep even low probability/possibly fake pieces on the table while trying to build the big picture. What a devious puzzle if extra pieces have been added that don't belong!
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 195):

The actual distance involved is more like 324 km, but the above figure is reasonable since the Coriolis forces for the first 10 degrees or so are virtually negligible. 2/3 * 559 = 373 km, which is in the right ball park.

As I don't see your maths from the 35 ( !!! ) equations provided by your link, allow me to take that result with a pinch of salt.

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 180):

Guys, your intuitions are leading you astray.

Problem is I've been navigating for quite a few years and there is no room for intuition in my line of work... and...

Quoting Pihero (Reply 66):
in all my aviation career, the only times I had to deal with Mr Coriolis were when doing high altitude star sights for celestial navigation close to the pole as he can affect the bubble.

I did research on my old navigation manuals and I found that, as I surmised, a Coriolis correction would be taken into account in celestial navigation as mùost of the time it would be done with a free gyro or a Polar Path compass, with therefore an aircraft left to its own trajectory from the precessing free gyro.
The Coriolis correction comes about from the Coriolis acceleration : and the vertical deviation is called Coriolis correction Z = 0.026 GS sin L where Z is in minutes of angle, GS in knots.
The Air Almanach, as it happens, shows these values of Kc, based on GS and Latitude.

This is it, at bottom right of page :



Taking our example at GS = 450 kt and Lat = 45°S, the correction is....8.5 Nm to the left of track... So that your navigational error is 324 - 8 = 316 Nm... I certainly do not want you as a nav officer.

That correction, IIRC was included in the latter sextants with a Lat knob.

I have a feeling that you mistook a straight application of the Earth astronomical precession with a Coriolis effect.

[Edited 2014-03-28 10:33:41]
Contrail designer
 
markak
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:38 pm

To those of you asking about SATCOM logging of Doppler.

I found this:
http://www.satcomdirect.com/connect/presentations09/Inmarsat%20101.pdf

Note especially the log screen shown on Slide 53 includes Doppler.

Question. I read someplace that MH370 was equipped with a LOW GAIN SATCOM antenna.
Can anyone confirm this.


Mark
 
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N328KF
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:42 pm

You know what would come in handy right about now? A PBY Catalina and a seaplane tender.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:45 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 222):
So having several teams run models simultaneously saves time than come up with one model, search for two weeks and move on to next model.

That's the thing though, I think they are

Edit: I misread what you said. How are they supposed to run multiple models? We are lucky that Inmarsat has the data they have available. To my knowledge, they have absolutely nothing else to run off of, so what would these multiple models be?

Quoting davidzill (Reply 224):
CNN now reporting aircraft have spotted floating debris in the new search area. Whether it's from MH370 or not, that's up to the experts to decide.

Sigh... I think it would be bigger news if they didn't find any garbage out there. Who knows, maybe this will actually be something

[Edited 2014-03-28 10:51:42]
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:48 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 220):

Has any other pilot come forward about hearing it? Or any ATC?

If it was broadcast, it should have been heard.
 
Backseater
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:20 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:58 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 231):
Has any other pilot come forward about hearing it? Or any ATC?

Not that I know of.
In fact, I don;t recall hearing much from the Vietnamese ATC side.
If you control a sector, I assume you would know that MH370 is expected from its flight plan.
If it does not show up, what is the stated procedure? "Oh well, too bad!" and move on?
It seems to me that ATC would try hard including asking another MAS aircraft to call the non responding aircraft on company frequency. No?
 
David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:00 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 220):

Having looked at the article you linked to, I'm embarrassed to say that I have to retract my claim not to have seen it. However, how many other "solid" claims have we heard from "unnamed sources" "close to the investigation"? More recent reports from similar sources, e.g. the NYT, claim that two MH crews tried to make contact and only heard "static". I still don't have reason to believe this one over the others.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:05 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 197):
Maybe he meant radar sats... Radar imaging does look through clouds and works at night, but I don't know how useful it would be for spotting debris.

Yeah, I meant infrared but it has to very intense cloud cover to not see through it. A lot of what is in this region is this arctic mist though it was heavily covered for a day or two. I think it would work in that would it not? Synthetic Aperture Radar is what you are probably referring too. I am not aware of a spy satellite that has that on-board but its probably classified. I don't know what the resolution would be.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 223):
121.5 is widely monitored, and the contact would by now have been confirmed by multiple sources.

Yeah that was my understanding as well. Several land bases were nearby including some US bases in Thailand (I think). I am sure some operators were asleep on the Malaysian side. They didn't scramble after an unidentified airliner entered their airspace after all.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 229):
A PBY Catalina and a seaplane tender.

That's what I was thinking actually. Russians still have something that can land on water. India bought some too. The seas in that area don't look rough right now either but I would not want to do that if I could avoid it.
 
B777fan
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:44 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:07 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 200):
Yes, of course, you're right. I was trying to keep it as simple as possible for those guys. From the book I linked to:

I sincerely hope I don't sound so patronizing to you.

I thought I gave you the clue to what your were missing in my last post. Your calculations are relevant for an earth surface in a vacuum.

Aircraft are not ballistic and they do not move over the surface the way an object would move over the surface in a vacuum. This is no different than using formulas to calculate the acceleration of a feather and a rock dropped on earth or the moon. Works on the moon, not on the earth. On earth you must account for the drag (friction) of the atmosphere.

As the aircraft heads south from the equator in still air, it encounters 'still' air that is moving less slowly, matching the rotational speed below it. Even in the first foot of travel. Drag alone from this lateral force is enough at airliner speeds to damp out the Coriolis effect and to render it mute when calculating navigation solutions.

Local winds account for several orders of magnitude more acceleration.

In the case of the airplane through air, with typical mass and speed it is more like a feather than a rock. Make the airliner a couple of orders of magnitude heavier and faster it will behave more like a rock and your calculations become relevant for earth air navigation solutions.

Just like a feather will not fall as the same speed on earth as a rock. An airplane heading south from the equator in heading mode will follow the longitude line unlike a missile fired directly overhead on the same heading above the atmosphere which will not.

When you have a formula that takes the drag of the atmosphere into account I would be happy to see it.

By the way, I want to emphasize that I don't think the Coriolis effect doesn't exist. Just that it is very small, enough to be damped out.

[Edited 2014-03-28 11:26:09]
 
AR385
Posts: 6936
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:16 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 214):
Plus zombies are scary, mindless, killing machines, and an airliner with no one at the controls because the pilots are dead in a locked cockpit is a scary, mindless, killing machine, so it's an apt description.

Zombies do not exist. They are fiction. A figment of someone´s imagination.

MH370 is very real, and the families of the those lost are also very real. I see no aptness in that description.
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:18 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 234):
Synthetic Aperture Radar is what you are probably referring too. I am not aware of a spy satellite that has that on-board but its probably classified. I don't know what the resolution would be.

Doesn't have to be a spy satellite.

I worked for one of the companies involved in RADARSAT. The imagery is pretty great. Don't know how useful it would be for spotting debris though.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
rcair1
Posts: 1147
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:28 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 214):
Sir, I certainly didn't coin the term--it's all over the media, and we aren't going to change that here.

I'm not talking about the media - I'm talking about discussion on airliners.net We are in control of our words - not the media or anybody else.

As the note on the bottom of the a.net forum says - the forum is as good as we make it.
Let's all try to keep it professional and honor those who died in this incident by focusing on what happened and how it can be prevented (if indeed, it can).

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 214):
Plus zombies are scary, mindless, killing machines, and an airliner with no one at the controls because the pilots are dead in a locked cockpit is a scary, mindless, killing machine, so it's an apt description.

No - zombies are fictional claptrap.
A/c with dead or disabled crews are real occurrences that often (not always) end up in a tragedy. I've never heard one called a "killing machine" nor do I think it is apt.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 229):
You know what would come in handy right about now? A PBY Catalina and a seaplane tender.

I'm thinkin' the waves are too high for seaplane operations.
rcair1
 
WarrenPlatts
Posts: 517
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 227):
I certainly do not want you as a nav officer.

What is this place? 4chan?!? Unbelievable...

FYI I was professional navigator in the US Navy (QM). That page you're showing me is a correction you're supposed to make to your LOP when celestially navigating with a bubble sextant. It is not a table showing how far an airplane flying inertially south from the equator will deviate from its starting longitude.

The reason you pilots don't believe in the Coriolis effect (except insofar as it drives the weather), is because it is not necessary to think about it in order to fly an airplane. You don't have to worry about it because your GPS powered autopilot does the thinking for you. Or if you are manually following a compass heading, or rhumb line as we used to say in the Navy, you are compensating for the Coriolis "force" without even realizing it. The fact you don't realize something is there doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Look, sir, I got some snowboarding to do right now. When I get back, I will try once again to show you the math in manner understable for you.

Thanks.
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:46 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 239):
You don't have to worry about it because your GPS powered autopilot does the thinking for you.

Autopilot? GPS? I'm lucky to have a working radio.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:53 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 229):
You know what would come in handy right about now? A PBY Catalina and a seaplane tender.

Let's see:

Advantages: 1) LONG loiter time, designed for longer time on station than any Orion or Poseidon
2) if seas are calm enough, can land on water to investigate debris

Disadvantages: 1) LOW airspeed
2) due to 1) above, cannot cover nearly as much ground

A US Coast Guard ship with a helicopter on board (or two) can do just about the same, although a modern helicopter can cover much more ground due to higher airspeed than the old PBY could. I wonder if anyone has anything similar in the SAR game down in W. Australia at the moment...    Also, it takes a while to move ships into position every time they spot something because the search area is so large.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1810
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:59 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 239):
What is this place? 4chan?!? Unbelievable...

In case you don't realize it, Pihero is one of the most experienced and respected contributors to a.net. His experience goes way back before GPS and autopilots - in another thread you can read about his experience on DC-4s. Treat him with disdain at your peril.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Lindenwold
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:52 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:03 pm

I can't even believe news outlets are reporting new debris being spotted.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6600
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:07 pm

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 117):
Once again, there's a new 'credible lead' and the entire search is moving 700 miles north.

And here we go again...

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 133):
I assume that Inmarsat models the motion of its satellite very well, as all operators do, the only uncertainty possible being right after a correction.
Quoting 65mustang (Reply 139):
Why is the new info saying that known radar data indicates a much higher speed?

If it's a higher speed, the results would be:
It would have reached further by 0811AM, therefore should be further southwest of where theyre searching.
To end up north east of the old search area due to higher speed means they would have reached the last arc before 0811AM.
You can't have both otherwise someone's pulling our legs all along...

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 137):
It is novel what they have done, but no amount of analysis is going to turn this satellite into a geolocator.

But then, Inmarsat has the Inmarsat Eye, which does track every single terminal they have based on the GPS positions embedded in their ping and handshake headers. I am told GPS discreet mode isn't allowed on Inmarsat-3 services as the I-3 network is a mandatory network for the Global Maritime Distress Safety Service. So why the ping analysis and not just reveal the coordinates...

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 185):
mandala might know enough to approximate...!

I am working with the radar data, time position data... on what's available to the public at the moment.
I am having problems matching the timestamp on the doppler shift with the radar data, and when the aircraft moved south.
The argument that it went faster is questionable... and the notion that "it went faster than previously estimated" and "moving the search to the north east because if it went faster, fuel would have run out sooner", sounds like a load of **** to me.
If it went faster and fuel would have run out sooner, should we have heard the ping at 0811UTC+8?
If it went faster, and the ping's footprint at 0811UTC+8 was correctly measured... wouldn't going further southwest be more logical (to cover more distance within the same timeframe).
So which one is it? It seems that this so-called "Inmarsat data", seems to be questionable with this latest development...
However, more calculations need to be done...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11231
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:08 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 242):
Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 239):
What is this place? 4chan?!? Unbelievable...

In case you don't realize it, Pihero is one of the most experienced and respected contributors to a.net. His experience goes way back before GPS and autopilots - in another thread you can read about his experience on DC-4s. Treat him with disdain at your peril.

I believe WarrenPlatts was just responding to the "disdain" that he felt he had been shown by Pihero. I think the problem in this situation is that neither contributor knew of the others skills, history, or knowledge - mistakenly or otherwise.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
starrion
Posts: 1025
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:19 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:11 pm

Not that we should always be the one rushing to the cause, but why hasn't anyone sent a helicopter carrier down there yet?!

The planes are always chasing floating debris, but no answers.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1601
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:16 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 244):
So which one is it? It seems that this so-called "Inmarsat data", seems to be questionable with this latest development...

It was discussed earlier in this thread... the whole confusion stems from the fact that the plane is believed to have flown faster when in RADAR coverage between the South China Sea and the Malacca Strait. This resulted the plane burning more fuel than previously estimated, and as it could not have flown as far as previously estimated, it must have flown slower after it disappeared from the radars. They have effectively downgraded the estimated speed from around 450 knots to 400 knots for the part of flight from the Malacca Strait to the "ping arc".

Link to AMSA statement: http://www.amsa.gov.au/media/documents/28032014MH370Update23.pdf

Quote:
The new information is based on continuing analysis of radar data between the South China Sea and the Strait of Malacca before radar contact was lost.
It indicated that the aircraft was travelling faster than previously estimated, resulting in increased fuel usage and reducing the possible distance the aircraft travelled south into the Indian Ocean.


Link to 400 knot track (BBC): http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26780897

Edit: Quote referral corrected

Edit: Adding link to AMSA statement

Edit: ...and adding link to 400 knot track
[Edited 2014-03-28 12:25:17]

[Edited 2014-03-28 12:34:34]
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:19 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 244):
If it went faster and fuel would have run out sooner, should we have heard the ping at 0811UTC+8?
If it went faster, and the ping's footprint at 0811UTC+8 was correctly measured... wouldn't going further southwest be more logical (to cover more distance within the same timeframe).
So which one is it? It seems that this so-called "Inmarsat data", seems to be questionable with this latest development...
However, more calculations need to be done...

Yeah, it does seem a bit suspect. I didn't really understand this either. I totally agree with you, if you assume a higher speed *and* a straight track, they would be further down on the arc. But they could have meandered around, and we could be looking at some 'parallel construction' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction) scenario based on classified radar data. Hopefully, at least.

We also know they were still in one piece at 0819L due to the partial handshake, which they still haven't understood or at least haven't shared their analysis of yet.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1683
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:35 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 244):
And here we go again...

Indeed. Probably not the last time we will see a change in the SAR search area. I know this shift is based off the "new" speed data, but some of the areas searched in the last week have been gone over several times with no result. Time to move along and look at some new areas while there might still be something left to see. I get the feeling we are nearing the end of a period when it is reasonable to think we might find something floating around in the ocean.
WhaleJets Rule!
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