realsim
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American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:27 pm

With a 92% participation, 70% of the American Eagle pilots have rejected the concessionary contract proposed by the company.

Here is ALPA's official press release:

EULESS, TX—American Eagle pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA) expressed their collective will and today rejected a concessionary contract proposed by American Airlines Group (AAG). With 92 percent of the eligible pilots casting their ballots, 70 percent voted against ratification of the contract.

“The Eagle pilots made a clear choice today, and it was not an easy one,” said Capt. Bill Sprague, chairman of the Eagle ALPA Master Executive Council. “Despite threats from AAG management that they would seek other express carriers to conduct our flying, today’s vote demonstrates that the demands for contract concessions were not acceptable. Today’s vote clearly shows that pilots can, and will, vote against any agreement that is not in their best interests.”

The proposed contract changes were a combination of pay freezes, reductions in per diem, and increased health-care costs in exchange for a promise to refleet the airline and enhance the existing agreement to transfer pilots to American Airlines. These concessions were in addition to the $43 million the pilots gave the company during bankruptcy last year.

Having previously worked under a 16-year contract that concluded with AMR’s bankruptcy filing, the American Eagle pilots have not seen meaningful contractual gains since 2004. New-hire pilot pay begins at less than $23,000 per year. Had the contract been approved, first officers would have been capped at about $38,000 per year after four years of service.

“Management has said many times to us that this agreement is their ‘bottom line’ offer and believe that they will be able to get the same cost savings from another provider,” Sprague said. “We question whether any regional airline is able to attract and retain pilots by offering poverty-level wages. American Eagle already has a career progression arrangement with American, and yet, due to a lack of pilots, it’s unable to perform the regional flying that American Airlines desires. Other airlines are experiencing the same problem.”

Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest airline pilots union, representing more than 50,000 pilots at 33 airlines in the United States and Canada, including the more than 2,700 pilots at American Eagle Airlines. Visit the ALPA website at www.alpa.org.


---------------------------------------------------

And here you have the letter sent by Pedro Fábregas, CEO of American Eagle, to the pilots:

Dear Team,

I am disappointed to report our pilots have decided not to ratify our Tentative Agreement (TA) with ALPA. While I made no secret of my view that the TA would have benefited our pilots and everyone at American Eagle Airlines, I respect our pilots’ decision and I’m pleased they had the opportunity to vote on the TA. Without its ratification, we will continue to operate under our current Collective Bargaining Agreement with ALPA.

This is not the outcome many of you or I had wanted, but now is the time for us to collectively accept our pilots’ decision and move forward. We will operate our current fleet in accordance with our business plan, which, to be clear, includes us remaining an airline. Our fleet will downsize as smaller, less-efficient aircraft, such as the Embraer 140s, are scheduled for retirement. We also will need to make appropriate changes to our business to accommodate this and ensure our costs are in line with our reduced fleet.

American has informed us it will award the flying of the Embraer 175s to another regional carrier or several other carriers in the near future. The opportunity for us to fly these aircraft has passed, and we need to focus on doing our best with the aircraft we have.

Even with today’s news, we will continue our work to run a safe and reliable operation that is as competitive as possible. This is a standard to which I will hold all of you and one on which I know we can deliver. We have a strong and growing ground handling business, which has thrived during one of the most dynamic and challenging times in our company’s history. New business and employees continue to be added on the ground handling side of our business at a rapid pace and we will aggressively seek more opportunities to grow this team. This, and your dedication to your responsibilities and our passengers, means there is still a significant role for us to play in our industry.

While the debate regarding the Agreement in Principle and later the TA was at times intense during the past several months, the vast majority of you showed a passion for and commitment to our company I will not soon forget. I want to thank our pilots and all of our employees for how they conducted themselves with the utmost professionalism during both the negotiations and the voting period.

Thank you for all of your work on behalf of our passengers and your commitment to American Eagle Airlines.

Regards,
Pedro


[Edited 2014-03-28 08:32:17]
 
Mir
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:41 pm

Good job by the Eagle pilots standing up for themselves - hopefully Republic follows suit.

Quoting realsim (Thread starter):
American has informed us it will award the flying of the Embraer 175s to another regional carrier or several other carriers in the near future.

Isn't this the third or fourth time they've said that? I'll believe it when I see it.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:42 pm

Well, it's Comair Mk II then, a slow inevitable death.
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Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
TUSDawg23
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:53 pm

Congrats to Eagle pilots. I know it wasn't an easy decision, but the right move on their part. I realize the regionals operate at razor thin margins, but these are highly trained professionals who have had to endure a great deal to get to where they were at. As someone who finished their private and instrument ratings, I can appreciate the amount of self discipline, focus, and knowledge that must be acquired to safely fly an airplane. We should be compensating these folks well because of the amount of responsibility they hold and training they have to go through to get where they're at. Hopefully this is the start of a trend towards better pilot contracts in the future and that there simply is no longer the pool of applicants jumping at the opportunity to fly an airplane for peanuts like management has always been able to count on in the past.
 
crj900lr
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:55 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 2):
Well, it's Comair Mk II then, a slow inevitable death.

Unfortunately, and our management won't care, they will just go find another regional who will lower the standards again just to get the flying.
 
silentbob
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:01 pm

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 4):
Unfortunately, and our management won't care, they will just go find another regional who will lower the standards again just to get the flying.

I don't think anyone will be able to staff it 6, 12 or 18 months from now without significant regulatory changes.
 
nomadd22
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:08 pm

I'm not much of a union backer, but this is one time I have to go with the pilots. I'd rather not have drivers who get paid less than toll takers.
Anon
 
Mir
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:21 pm

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 4):
Unfortunately, and our management won't care, they will just go find another regional who will lower the standards again just to get the flying.

The fact that AA has come back to Eagle so many times (remember how the first proposal was "vote yes or get shut down"?) tells me that there's no guarantee that they'll be able to find another regional to do what they want. Eagle had turned down concessionary contracts, so has Expressjet, Republic might be next. Skywest has gotten a (slightly) better deal. Commutair has approached its own pilots with an offer that is industry-leading in certain areas. That's a critical mass that's building, and any pilot who's thinking "I don't want to vote yes on this, but if I don't then someone else will" should take notice.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
INFINITI329
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:56 pm

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 4):

Unfortunately, and our management won't care, they will just go find another regional who will lower the standards again just to get the flying.

I dont think there is anyone with capacity to take over any additional flying. AA knows that, they are expecting MQ pilots to balk with pressure. But those fine professionals are smarter than that. Kudos to the MQ pilots.. stand your ground.
 
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par13del
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:21 pm

A question to the pilots, what would be the effect of abandoning scope and pushing for the best salary and benefits?

I think we can see the effect of scope on the airlines which started with the airline within an airline, then went to the regionals, the the holding companies who only hire the pilots and mainline provide the a/c, etc. etc etc.
How does it affect the pilots if there are wage scales.
I need a better appreciation of the benefits of maintaining scope versus having salary scales throughout the pilot workforce.
 
realsim
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:26 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
The fact that AA has come back to Eagle so many times (remember how the first proposal was "vote yes or get shut down"?) tells me that there's no guarantee that they'll be able to find another regional to do what they want.

  

Another prove of this is what I have underlined in the following statement: "American has informed us it will award the flying of the Embraer 175s to another regional carrier or several other carriers in the near future." They have always talked about another operator (not operators), but now they openly admit that they won't be able to find an airline which can staff 60 E75s beginning next year. I wouldn't rule out, however, that a few E75s are awarded to another regional (Compass is a rumored one), or the move of some of the CR7s, just before they come back to negotiate with Eagle again.

Quoting Tusdawg23 (Reply 3):
Congrats to Eagle pilots. I know it wasn't an easy decision, but the right move on their part.
Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Good job by the Eagle pilots standing up for themselves - hopefully Republic follows suit.
Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 6):
I'd rather not have drivers who get paid less than toll takers.

  
 
Mir
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 9):
A question to the pilots, what would be the effect of abandoning scope and pushing for the best salary and benefits?

First of all, regionals don't have scope - that's a mainline thing. So it's not something that's applicable in this case - all the pilots are pushing for is best salary and benefits (including work rules, flowthrough agreements, etc.).

But to answer your question, if the mainline pilots were to relax scope in favor of better salary and benefits, they would find that many of their jobs would be outsourced to regionals who would get larger airplanes (E190s as opposed to E170s, for instance, or now the CS100 or CS300), and that they'd be getting no salary and no benefits. That's part of what happened to create the current regional setup - mainline carriers accepted scope relaxation in exchange for better pay and benefits - it helped those at the top of the seniority list but really hurt those toward the bottom, and those who were looking to join the airline in the near future. And most people wish that there could be a do-over on that decision.

-Mir
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futureualpilot
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:57 pm

All airlines have scope in the sense that it protects the flying the airline does by preventing it from being done by others not on a specific seniority list. At mainline this means not farming out to regional sub-contractors. At a regional this means preventing an alter-ego scenario a la TSA/GoJet.


Bravo to the Eagle group. Unfortunately in the long run it probably doesn't bode well but asking regional pilots for concessions in this market is just an abhorrent mutilation of morality.

[Edited 2014-03-28 10:58:53]
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azjubilee
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:03 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
First of all, regionals don't have scope - that's a mainline thing. So it's not something that's applicable in this case - all the pilots are pushing for is best salary and benefits (including work rules, flowthrough agreements, etc.).

Not true. Regional airlines have some sort of scope language in the contract, in fact it's usually section 1, because it's highly important. Many are learning the vagaries of "whipsawing" and have included scope to protect them as much as possible.

Good for the Eagle pilots for standing up for their profession! I can fully appreciate their situation and just hope they've prepared for the negative outcome this vote MAY produce. Mgmt is famous for bluffing and bait and switching. THose jets are not for other airlines until they're on property. Until then, it's all a threat.
 
175erj
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:06 pm

So likely homes for the aircraft?

CRJ700: PSA or AirWis
175: Split between Mesa and SkyWest
 
175erj
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:16 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):

Not quite... before it was worded along the lines of they would 'have to look for another carrier to place the aircraft at' or would be 'forced to find another carrier to place the aircraft at."

Well this time, it says they are going to actually announce awards..so its a little bit different. But like you, ill believe it when I see it.
 
joeljack
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:39 pm

Quoting realsim (Thread starter):
Having previously worked under a 16-year contract that concluded with AMR’s bankruptcy filing, the American Eagle pilots have not seen meaningful contractual gains since 2004. New-hire pilot pay begins at less than $23,000 per year. Had the contract been approved, first officers would have been capped at about $38,000 per year after four years of service.

I hate unions and I am a big advocate of negotiate and supply and demand and ps...I'm a democrat too. If you can't find somebody to hire, raise what you're offering them etc etc. Maybe somebody is more qualified...pay them more etc. With the national pilot shortage...you may have to offer 75k starting...who knows what....all about supply and demand.

Here at our office, we've had to increase wages 50% of the past couple years, just nobody qualified that is willing to work for the old salaries. It doesn't mean that we increase current employees though. Everybody is on their own and can negotiate individually and if it is found out that employees ever discus what they make with others, they are fired immediately. It's right in their contract.

If an existing employee thinks they are underpaid, go to the boss, spell out the case for why one is worth more...see what, if anything the company offers then either say or go somewhere else. Pretty simple.

The amount of money wasted on both ends with unions and companies going back and forth is crazy. All this money can go the the employees.

On a side note, yes the wage of 23k is too small. You are just plain stupid to except an offer like that. Go to a different company. Personally, I think a fair wage depending on experience is between 45k and 100k starting. 1,500 hours, no experience, not willing to work nights and weekends...45k. 1,500 hours, willing to work nights and weekends...maybe 55k and so on and so forth.
 
Mir
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 12):
All airlines have scope in the sense that it protects the flying the airline does by preventing it from being done by others not on a specific seniority list.

Fair enough - I was speaking from the more traditional perspective. I think it's fair to say that no regional is giving up any scope for anything anymore.

Quoting Joeljack (Reply 16):
Personally, I think a fair wage depending on experience is between 45k and 100k starting. 1,500 hours, no experience, not willing to work nights and weekends...45k. 1,500 hours, willing to work nights and weekends...maybe 55k and so on and so forth.

Regional pilots would be absolutely thrilled to get $45k to start. And that's with having 1,500 hours (now a legal requirement with limited exceptions) and being willing to work nights and weekends (part of the job).

-Mir
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United_fan
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:09 pm

Quoting Joeljack (Reply 16):
On a side note, yes the wage of 23k is too small. You are just plain stupid to except an offer like that

How would one live on that ?
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b747400erf
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:25 pm

Remember when experts were saying how the new duty time rules and lack of so many new pilots was going to raise the wages of current ones? That was a good laugh!
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:01 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Good job by the Eagle pilots standing up for themselves

And shooting their advancement chances in the foot in the process. As quoted from an industry analyst:

Today, Eagle provides 50% of the monthly new hire class to American. If the class is 40, Eagle supplies 20. Under the new deal, 100% of the first 30 pilots American hires in a month will come from Eagle. That is a significant improvement, especially if American is hiring smaller classes, like 20 per month. Previously, only 10 would have flowed through to American; under the terms of the new contract, it would be all 20.

So if the class is 30, it is all Eagle. If it is 40, 30 are Eagle. Granted, if the new class is 60, only 30 will be Eagle. But that would still be 50% -- the same as the current agreement.


So the Eagle pilots have limited the viability of their own company, given AA the go-ahead to send the newer, more in-demand equipment elsewhere, and turned away a big improvement on flow-through to AA.

Yeah, good job Eagle pilots.   
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
MSPNWA
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:52 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 19):
Remember when experts were saying how the new duty time rules and lack of so many new pilots was going to raise the wages of current ones?

That market change just doesn't come overnight. For so long the market power has been in the hands of the legacies. They were able to pit regionals against each other and get a better and better deal. Then the regionals had to force concessions on their employee to stay alive. There's still too many regionals out there, so sadly more consolidation is necessary, but this "no" vote is a sign that potentially the pendulum of market power will reverse back upward. It's not going to be a pretty start, but the day is coming soon where legacies will have to start paying up if they want a contract partner. Even if Eagle doesn't survive, I wouldn't care as much if I was a pilot. Nobody is behind you ready to replace you. So in essence, this rejection is evidence of that market change occurring right now.
 
jderden777
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:55 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 20):

Apparently the majority of Eagle pilots DO think they did a good job with the vote, and as a fellow regional pilot I wholeheartedly support them and am happy about the results. They were ALREADY on a concessionary contract, and stood their ground when threatened (so much for "good faith negotiation?") with this kind of low-ball slap-in-the-face offer. I guess you'd be ok with your employer giving you a vague promise of new equipment for your job, but that it will come at your own personal cost, and if you don't accept it you'll lose your job. If you really think it's the pilots that have limited the viability of the company, you are sorely mistaken.

jd
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StuckInCA
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:59 am

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 6):
I'm not much of a union backer, but this is one time I have to go with the pilots. I'd rather not have drivers who get paid less than toll takers.

I can only agree with this. I'm not sure why a starting pilot shouldn't be making at least $50,000 unless they barely work.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:05 am

Quoting jderden777 (Reply 22):
If you really think it's the pilots that have limited the viability of the company, you are sorely mistaken.

Am I? Let's take an inventory of what has occurred as a result of a 'no' vote:

o Eagle is downsizing and will need fewer pilots as a result
o Their primary CPA source is now placing aircraft elsewhere that could have gone to Eagle
o Pilot flow-through to AA will not be enhanced

Eagle is now in the unenviable position of being uncompetitive and with a CPA partner that's looking outward. There are regional airlines out there that will bid on the AA RFPs at rates lower than the costs contained in the now-rejected TA. That's a fact. Had the TA been ratified, AA wouldn't have sent those out for bid.

Not saying the TA was fantastic, but it was better than the alternative. And the Eagle pilots are going to learn the hard way.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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par13del
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:33 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 20):
So the Eagle pilots have limited the viability of their own company,
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 24):
Am I? Let's take an inventory of what has occurred as a result of a 'no' vote:

o Eagle is downsizing and will need fewer pilots as a result

The viability of the company was being lost before the vote, if Eagle was flowing 20 to 30 pilots per month to mainline AA, what was that doing for Eagle, how long could they continue to loose pilots before being forced to downsize?
The vote may mean that they accelerate the process but the flow through hurts Eagles viability in a market where pilots are shrinking with the new minimum requirements.
I agree that we do not look at those aspects from an Eagle point of view since most regional's are a means to an end and exist to serve the needs of mainline.

Personally I think they were in a no win situation, even if they had voted Yes, AA was going to continue to give flying and a/c to lower cost partners and probably continue to flow those pilots with minimum hours thru to mainline.
A strategy which will ultimately result in the death of the airline, all the no vote did was accelerate the process and give all the other workers a boogie man to blame.
 
93Sierra
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:39 am

Congrats MQ! Stop the Whipsaw!!!!!!!!!! Republic pilots stand strong!

No way can anyone come in and staff those 60 ejets that quickly. Way to call their bluff guys.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:03 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 24):


o Eagle is downsizing and will need fewer pilots as a result

Who cares? Do you think pilots are a.netters that get excited about a paint job on their plane when they are trying to pay rent at LGA or ORD on $23,000 a year? Get real already. There's no growth at Eagle...wouldn't have been either way. But plenty of movement because pilots are leaving in droves

o Their primary CPA source is now placing aircraft elsewhere that could have gone to Eagle

Where? Republic (we need to shut down United flying because we can't staff the airline) Airways?

o Pilot flow-through to AA will not be enhanced

I was an Eagle pilot. My buddy hired in 2004 just flowed through to American. I've been flying for a major for 6 years. The flow through did nothing for Eagle pilots. They went over at FIRST year pay. They could have had a job 5 times over at another airline while they waited. It did do something really well though...when AA furloughed...it flowed back! ALPA missed the fine print on that one!


The regional pilots today don't need a bad flow through. Delta is hiring. JetBlue is hiring. United is hiring. Airways is hiring. Southwest is hiring.
 
Mir
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:56 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 20):
And shooting their advancement chances in the foot in the process.

Their advancement chances have never been better, actually.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 24):
Pilot flow-through to AA will not be enhanced

Which is ultimately irrelevant. Flow-through agreements are only useful during times of low hiring. We're not heading into one of those times. All the majors are going to be needing pilots. Sure, Eagle pilots might not have as good a chance at getting on with AA, but DL and UA and WN and AS are all going to be hiring, and they'll get on somewhere.

The mainline carriers have been trying to make up for pay and benefit concessions with flow-through agreements, but anyone who looks at the state of the industry can see that all that is is an attempt to get pilots to give up pay for a little bit more certainty that something that the mainline carriers were going to have to do anyway (hire them) would happen. From an economics perspective, it's not a good deal.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
OB1504
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:07 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 20):
So the Eagle pilots have limited the viability of their own company, given AA the go-ahead to send the newer, more in-demand equipment elsewhere, and turned away a big improvement on flow-through to AA.

Who are they going to send the equipment to? Pilots are making it clear that if they're going to be required to get an ATP before they can touch a regional jet, they're not going to do it for fast food wages anymore.
 
atct
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:13 am

Quoting Tusdawg23 (Reply 3):
I know it wasn't an easy decision, but the right move on their part.

I can't agree more. Another vote that stops this race to the bottom.

atct
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Shawn Patrick
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:04 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 24):
Am I? Let's take an inventory of what has occurred as a result of a 'no' vote:

o Eagle is downsizing and will need fewer pilots as a result
o Their primary CPA source is now placing aircraft elsewhere that could have gone to Eagle
o Pilot flow-through to AA will not be enhanced

Eagle is now in the unenviable position of being uncompetitive and with a CPA partner that's looking outward. There are regional airlines out there that will bid on the AA RFPs at rates lower than the costs contained in the now-rejected TA. That's a fact. Had the TA been ratified, AA wouldn't have sent those out for bid.

Not saying the TA was fantastic, but it was better than the alternative. And the Eagle pilots are going to learn the hard way.

The pilots voted yes for the bankruptcy TA, and management did not make good on any of their vague promises. Instead, the company shut down two of its most senior domiciles, parked the ATR fleet, and awarded flying to Skywest, Expressjet, and awarded 47 E175s to Republic. That's how AMR rewarded the Eagle pilots by "playing ball" and voting yes in 2011.

The latest TA would be good only for a pilot wanting to stay at Eagle forever. Otherwise, intelligent pilots think further ahead. Ratifying this agreement would set off a domino effect in the regional industry. It would drop the compensation bar even lower, inviting even more mainline scope busting in the future. You'd see larger aircraft being outsourced, as previously mentioned. Regional pilots are finally making the tough decisions that will hopefully correct the previous wrongs of mainline and regional pilots alike, as they were both responsible in different capacities for the downward trend in wages and erosion of mainline scope.
 
MaverickTTT
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:04 pm

Quoting Joeljack (Reply 16):
If an existing employee thinks they are underpaid, go to the boss, spell out the case for why one is worth more...see what, if anything the company offers then either say or go somewhere else. Pretty simple.

That's an exceptionally naive view of how the world (especially the airline world) works. In my job position, I've worked in both a non-union shop and, now, a union shop. In the non-union shop, the concept of "go to the boss and spell out the case for why you are worth more" was welcomed and encouraged. Care to guess how many people came away with a higher wage or better work rules? That's right...zero.

Unions aren't perfect; I know mine does things that annoy me...but, having experienced both, I will take the collectively-bargained, legally-binding contract that benefits the whole over a handshake deal that benefits the individual any day. When the average CEO-to-employee wage ratio in the United States is roughly 350:1 (and, mind you, all of those executives are under contracts that dictate their compensation and scope of duties with their respective companies), the argument that employees, especially highly-skilled ones, must earn poverty wages in order for the company to survive is a poor one...and no amount of groveling at the feet of management is going to change the mindset of that type of management.
 
N353SK
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:11 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 19):

Remember when experts were saying how the new duty time rules and lack of so many new pilots was going to raise the wages of current ones? That was a good laugh!

Commutair, a Small UAX carrier flying Dash 8 aircraft, just ratified an agreement to raise first-year bay from $23 to $30 per hour, and a raise of about $4 per hour for all captains. The reason for the wage raise was to help attract new-hires and to stop first officers from leaving for other airlines.
 
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Revelation
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:51 pm

Quoting jderden777 (Reply 22):
I guess you'd be ok with your employer giving you a vague promise of new equipment for your job, but that it will come at your own personal cost, and if you don't accept it you'll lose your job.

It's pretty amazing when you step back and look at how management manipulates such things. That new equipment is to benefit the company not the pilot. Sure, it's nice to have a new toy, but not if that means making concessions to get the shiny new toy, especially if your goal is to move on to mainline toys.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 24):
Not saying the TA was fantastic, but it was better than the alternative. And the Eagle pilots are going to learn the hard way.

You seem to think you have a better understanding of the situation than 70% of the AE pilots themselves. I profoundly doubt this.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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reltney
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:17 pm

All the regionals need to see this. It is a race to the bottom! As a former Eagle pilot, I am proud of them. Dont be in that race. Stand up for yourself! A NYC taxi driver makes more money!

Reltney
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
KD5MDK
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:23 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 24):
There are regional airlines out there that will bid on the AA RFPs at rates lower than the costs contained in the now-rejected TA.

Can you name them? Is it Great Lakes or Chatauqua?
 
B757capt
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting KD5MDK (Reply 36):

Ahh piedmont and psa to name two.
The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
 
Turboprop72
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:13 pm

I'm happy for the MQ pilots that didn't allow another concessionary contract to pass, they have already given enough. I guess AAG threats and fear tactics are not working anymore. Most people that work at MQ really don't care if the place shuts down tomorrow.
 
93Sierra
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:18 pm

PSA is scum and screwed everyone else and I hope nothing but the worst for them. How they are able to still fill their classes dumbfounded me. Republic guys need to stand strong me I feel they will.
 
Mir
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:28 pm

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 39):
How they are able to still fill their classes dumbfounded me.

Are they still able to fill their classes? I've seen a significant amount of job advertising from them in places that other airlines don't normally advertise, so it wouldn't surprise me if they were desperate for people just like everyone else.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
93Sierra
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:14 am

Heard that they have had 20-25 last 2 classes no problem...... Compared to a class that Transtates just ran that had 28, with only 8 showing up on class day.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:03 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 34):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 24):Not saying the TA was fantastic, but it was better than the alternative. And the Eagle pilots are going to learn the hard way. You seem to think you have a better understanding of the situation than 70% of the AE pilots themselves

No, just a better understanding of airline economics.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
N353SK
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:16 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
Are they still able to fill their classes? I've seen a significant amount of job advertising from them in places that other airlines don't normally advertise, so it wouldn't surprise me if they were desperate for people just like everyone else.

Regional applicants love chasing the quick upgrade, and PSA is doing a good job of selling the chance of a quick upgrade right now.
 
oc2dc
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:50 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 18):
How would one live on that ?
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 20):
So the Eagle pilots have limited the viability of their own company, given AA the go-ahead to send the newer, more in-demand equipment elsewhere, and turned away a big improvement on flow-through to AA.

Yeah, good job Eagle pilots.   

Not only would MQ have set a new low standard for the entire regional industry by approving this, but they also would have had to rely on AA's good faith to have an increased chance of flow through.

From what I understand, AA has been picking and choosing how much they will honor the current flow through numbers. Some months they take 22 guys from MQ and others they take just a couple. That's not how the contract is supposed to work and yet they are toying with MQ. . .

Something tells me if MQ approved the contract, AA would have downsized them anyway.
I'm not complaining, I'm critiquing...
 
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:35 pm

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 44):
Not only would MQ have set a new low standard for the entire regional industry by approving this, but they also would have had to rely on AA's good faith to have an increased chance of flow through.

Please explain the "new low" ; this wasn't a concessionary contract as I understand it, First Officers below 8 years and Captains below 12 years would have seen higher step increases, Captains in years 15 to 17 would keep getting annual increases, First Officers who are promoted to Captains will get huge pay increases, and Captains who flow through to American will clearly make even more.

And the flow language was clearly codified as part of the CBA so there wouldn't be any monkey business with the flow.

I'm absolutely willing to be corrected on this if I'm wrong, but so far no one has supplied data to refute me.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:12 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 42):
No, just a better understanding of airline economics.

Yes, and airlines do what is in their best interest, and pilots do what is in their own...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Mir
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:14 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 45):
Please explain the "new low" ; this wasn't a concessionary contract as I understand it, First Officers below 8 years and Captains below 12 years would have seen higher step increases

Versus the previous offer, yes. But not versus the contract they're currently working under.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
norcal
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:35 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 42):
No, just a better understanding of airline economics.

Apparently not, or you don't understand their current TA or the new TA being offered.

The biggest issues facing American Eagle are their longevity costs. The existing bankruptcy TA had a mechanism built into it to deal with this in several ways:

1. In 2016, American Eagle automatically has its longevity costs adjusted to match the two lowest regionals in the industry.

2. The flow through moves people off the top of the list to American. This does two things, one it removes the most senior of the work force and two, it creates a lot of movement that is supposed to encourage new hires to come to American Eagle.

American Eagle already had inferior work rules compared to other regionals out there like SkyWest, ExpressJet, Air Wisconsin, etc. Even Endeavor and PSA trump Eagle's work rules in many ways. All that needed to happen for Eagle to fix its cost problems was to have the longevity amendment round and flow through fix the problem. It would have happened very quickly.

Quoting N353SK (Reply 43):
Regional applicants love chasing the quick upgrade, and PSA is doing a good job of selling the chance of a quick upgrade right now.

PSA is enjoying the demise of the lowest paying carriers like Great Lakes, Silver airlines, and Commutair. That is a finite supply of pilots. US Airways is also already messing with their preferential interviews for mainline by with holding pilots. If those games continue and once the supply of recycled pilots is exhausted, PSA will be in serious trouble. This summer is going to be very rough for the regionals.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 45):
Please explain the "new low" ; this wasn't a concessionary contract as I understand it, First Officers below 8 years and Captains below 12 years would have seen higher step increases, Captains in years 15 to 17 would keep getting annual increases, First Officers who are promoted to Captains will get huge pay increases, and Captains who flow through to American will clearly make even more.

How is it not a concessionary contract? Their current bankruptcy contract has a pay scale that adjusts to the industry average or +1.5% minimum every year to help deal with inflation. This new TA would have frozen their pay scales where they are now for 10 years. That is a lot of potential raises to lose out on and in reality is a pay cut because their purchasing power will decrease because of inflation. Their were 4 tiny raises of 1% the last 4 years of the contract. 4% over 10 years is pathetic and that assumes that a contract is negotiated and ready to go at the 10 year mark. Knowing how airline management works, they would have probably had this TA for 13-15 years. An Eagle new hire in 2024 would have an incredibly low purchasing power, probably close to $17,000 a year in equivalent 2014 dollars.

They also had their per diem frozen as well for the duration where their current contract allows for a $0.05 increase per year. Per diem is supposed to buy food on the road and we all know that food has been getting more expensive.

One additional example is that Eagle pilots were supposed to see their health care costs increase by 5% as a part of this new TA. That is a concession.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 45):
And the flow language was clearly codified as part of the CBA so there wouldn't be any monkey business with the flow.

American Eagle pilots were burned very bad by the last flow through agreement. Many of the guys currently at Eagle where there in 1997 and told, "Vote Yes and you'll all flow to American in a few year." What happens? AMR buys Reno Air and then buys TWA and doesn't flow any Eagle pilots as promised. This gets fought for years in arbitration and only very recently has the problem been rectified. Many of those pilots (not all) waited to flow to American instead of applying to Delta or United or wherever because they kept hearing, "You'll be flowing to American very soon," so they stayed only to be told many years later, "You guys are too senior and too expensive." Well if American had followed through on their promises then they wouldn't have had a longevity problem.

There is also plenty of monkey business with the current contract, one black and white section regarding the use of their reserve pilots has been violated hundreds of times. It is currently in arbitration and their pilots don't know when it will be resolved. Basically what the section says is that reserve pilots will only be turned back once per sequence (unless they choose to volunteer for more turn backs). The company decided they didn't like that and started turning back all reserves as many times as they wanted. Examples I have heard of is a pilot completing a 2 day trip, then being turned back once to do another turn (perfectly legal), only to come back from the additional turn, to be turned back again for another overnight. That is a clear violation of this section below:

ORDER OF ASSIGNMENTS
1. A reserve pilot who has been credited with less than sixty (60) hours in the
contractual month may be assigned additional flying prior to calling out
reserves from home and prior to the awarding of reserve proffers except
that such a reserve may only perform additional flying in accordance with
this paragraph once per flight sequence.
Such additional flying may
include multiple legs or an overnight(s), after which such pilot will be
released to rest.

The pilot could originally be scheduled to do a single turn on reserve and then be turned back for a 3 day trip, that is legal. What can't happen is for them to get turned back for an overnight, complete that assignment and then get turned back again for another overnight.

The company agreed to this section in the bankruptcy contract and then decided they didn't like it and proceeded to do what they wanted. That happened immediately after the signing of the bankruptcy contract and the grievance process has been on going every since (over a year)

Another example is the assignment of schedules to low time FOs to meet the 1500 hour rule. The assignment of open time is supposed to be done in seniority order. That allows more senior FOs to choose commutable reserve assignments which saves them on having to get a crash pad or hotel rooms and gets them better quality of life. That open time is also available for regular lines holders to pick up for extra hours. American Eagle management decided to ignore the agreed open open time assignment methodology and give all the open time trips to low time FOs so that they can get their hours. It was the company's decision to hire these low time FOs who really didn't have any realistic chance of getting to 1500 hours with out violating the seniority of all the other pilots on the list. There was already a mechanism in place to allow for this and it would be the displacement of other pilots off of their trip in order to give it to the low time FOs. This has the potential to cost more money because the pilots displaced off of their trips are still paid for them, though they are available for reassignments to other flying. So long as those reassignments aren't worth more than the old trips, they aren't paid more, which is fair.

The company's choice to violate the seniority portion of the contract (black and white language) led to big negative changes in quality of life and earnings for senior FOs on reserve and regular line holding pilots looking to pick up extra hours. There is a very large grievance working its way through the system now over this.


What it basically boils down to is trust. American Eagle management constantly violates the current bankruptcy TA and it takes years for the system to work it out. This new TA had no mechanisms to force management to honor their agreement. They wouldn't not agree to any snap back provisions or anything like that. I think that is totally fair for the American Eagle pilots to get. Why should management get the fruits of concessions if they don't deliver on their promises? Something along the lines, if you don't fulfill the fleet agreement or flow through then we get this concession back.

Management had absolutely no skin in the game what so ever, it was the Eagle pilots being asked to take all the risk in exchange for the promise of rewards from a management team that has proven untrustworthy and willing to violate even black and white contract sections.

Couple this with the ever growing evidence of a pilot shortage and you have to ask yourself why on earth would they ever vote yes to this deal.

Furthermore, why should the American Eagle pilots pay for increased flow? That program benefits AAG the most because it is a recruiting tool. They should be doing that anyways in order to aggressively grab the few new hires out there and get them to fly for AAG. That $2.5 billion aircraft order won't fly itself and Delta and United will be needing regional pilots too. AAG should have been progressive for once and just given the enhanced flow through. It's truly a win-win, it helps recruiting and it allows the company to get rid of the most senior and expensive pilots as fast as possible. Also since when is it the employees' responsibilities to finance new equipment? Do you think when the office needs to computers that management takes pay cuts to help finance them? No those are the tools of the job and a necessary business expense.

To me this seemed like a total last ditch effort to lock in concessions before the shortage truly becomes evident to all. AAG does not need these concessions. They are set to make billions in profit this year and have $10 billion of profits in the bank. At some point employees should be able to share in this success. This wasn't about raises. All the American Eagle pilots were asking for was for their management to honor the current agreement and the promises of refleeting that they gave during bankruptcy. The Eagle pilots already gave up quite a bit a year ago, coming back so soon with the company doing so well is just greedy, especially considering the mechanisms already in place to protect AAG from longevity costs at Eagle.

Eagle might get shut down, but it won't be AAG's choosing. From what I've heard from pilots at Eagle is that they are losing quite a lot of pilots. They lost almost 90 in February, or 9 airplanes worth of flying, and the vast majority of those pilots aren't going to other regionals. They are moving up, not laterally. Their is no way AAG can suffer those kinds of loses for long at Eagle and not have some serious issues, especially with the summer travel season coming upon us. It will be very interesting to watch the impending meltdown come along.
 
Mir
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RE: American Eagle Pilots Reject Contract (70%-30%)

Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:59 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 48):
Couple this with the ever growing evidence of a pilot shortage and you have to ask yourself why on earth would they ever vote yes to this deal.

   It's a simple question of economics. Right now the pilots are selling a product (their services) during a time of relatively high supply, and thus prices are low. But on the horizon is a reduction in that supply, with a corresponding increase in prices to satisfy the same demand. If you're in that market, why would you agree to lock in today's low prices through tomorrow's market? You won't be making nearly as much as you could that way.

Quoting norcal (Reply 48):
Furthermore, why should the American Eagle pilots pay for increased flow?

No pilot should pay for increased flow, because increased flow is going to happen whether or not the pilots pay for it. Anyone who says that flow agreements are worth concessions in the long run is operating under the assumption that the carrier that would be flowed to is the only carrier that is hiring or that the pilots would want to work for. I'm sure there's a certain number of pilots at Eagle who only want to work for American so that they have a shot at still being based in DFW or MIA, but otherwise there's no need to limit options like that when everyone is going to be hiring.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day

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