Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
n471wn
Topic Author
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

Another Air India Scrapping

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:19 pm

Boeing 777 (VT-ALH #36307) is now being scrapped at BOM. This 2009 build aircraft was damaged (spar) but was clearly repairable but I guess repairs are difficult to make in India. Sad to see such a new 777 bite the dust

Source added:

ATDB.aero

[Edited 2014-04-08 08:18:44 by SA7700]
 
kaitak
Posts: 9975
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:37 pm

What happened to the spar? Did it have a hard landing at some stage?

Saw this aircraft a few times at LHR; lovely looking machine.
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:40 pm

It did suffer a hard landing at one point. According to the tech ops thread, they were cannibalizing it for parts for the rest of the fleet. Now that the remainder of the fleet is going to EY, they must not have a need for –ALH any longer, so it’s being scrapped.
PHX based
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 1148
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:18 pm

That is a Boeing 777-237(LR) . Only 4.6 years old.

Looks like it was delivered around 01 SEP 2009.

The last photo in the database here is in JAN 2012, though some other sites have photos up to MAY 2012.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nicholas Young



[Edited 2014-03-28 12:18:58]
 
n471wn
Topic Author
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:32 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 2):
It did suffer a hard landing at one point. According to the tech ops thread, they were cannibalizing it for parts for the rest of the fleet. Now that the remainder of the fleet is going to EY, they must not have a need for –ALH any longer, so it’s being scrapped.

Seems odd that they could take so many parts off of it that it is worth more in the parts left than to restore it to flight status
 
raddek
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:09 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:11 am

What a damn waste! I had these airlines that just destroy good quality planes that should have lasted 20 to 30 years of proud service. AI is a terrible run company anyways, so it isn't a surprise.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4455
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:13 pm

The aircraft looks to be in terrible shape. Very sad.   
http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/201...-maharashtra-shivajis-airport.html
First to fly the 787-9
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24908
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:20 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 6):
The aircraft looks to be in terrible shape. Very sad.

Thats criminal !!  Wow! Always a shame to see these kind of things.
 
User avatar
Istanbuler83
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:30 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:08 pm

VT-ALA looks so beautiful in Etihad colors. I am so glad that she has found a new home and has been totally refurbished.
Istanbuler83
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15470
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:21 pm

I am quite sure the insurance companies, AI, Boeing and others went over the numbers and determined it was not financially viable to repair this a/c and return it to service. It is likely it's parts value, especially as a newer frame and a popular model may have better than vs, the write off from repairs as well. I would also suppose AI may not have the culture, along with their financial weaknesses to repair even if not economically viable. It also could have been difficult to get insurance cover if it needed such extensive repairs. In the end, is about money, not emotions.
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2638
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:29 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 9):
I am quite sure the insurance companies, AI, Boeing and others went over the numbers and determined it was not financially viable to repair this a/c and return it to service. It is likely it's parts value, especially as a newer frame and a popular model may have better than vs, the write off from repairs as well. I would also suppose AI may not have the culture, along with their financial weaknesses to repair even if not economically viable. It also could have been difficult to get insurance cover if it needed such extensive repairs. In the end, is about money, not emotions.

   first sensible comment on this post.....most members on this forum just love to trash AI, given the things they hear about the airline (mostly on this forum itself)......you end up reading senseless emotional comments like....

Quoting OA260 (Reply 7):
Thats criminal !! Always a shame to see these kind of things.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24908
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:39 pm

Quoting gr8circle (Reply 10):
most members on this forum just love to trash AI

No in fairness AI bring it on themselves. Its such a shame to see AI in a mess and from an aviation enthusiasts point of view it is very sad!!
 
k83713
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:38 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:52 pm

In percentage, which amount of depreciated cost at the moment of writing-off they can retrieve in form of spare parts, etc? Approximately.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8612
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:05 pm

It is neither scrapped nor being scrapped. It doesn't look cute and cuddly with all the dirt which is common for a plane stored outside in that region.

Plan is to store it outdoors for long term and fix issues only when there is a buyer.

1) Engines are removed and stored indoors. Best practice for long term storage.
All AI engines are under GE Onpoint Solution Manager program. So there is no need to cannibalize engines.

2) It has cowling damage. RFP is issued for repairs
http://mmd.airindia.co.in/aimmd/tend...7%20Fan%20Cowl%20Crack%20Photo.pdf

3) Its radome was used on some other plane. RFP is issued for repairs of damaged radome.
http://mmd.airindia.co.in/aimmd/tender/RadomeP1010021.JPG
http://mmd.airindia.co.in/aimmd/tender/RadomeP1010028.JPG

[Edited 2014-03-29 07:12:24]
All posts are just opinions.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 25009
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:05 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 6):
The aircraft looks to be in terrible shape. Very sad.
http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/201...-maharashtra-shivajis-airport.html

The article has been updated:

Quote:

Update 1 – Mar 28, 2014, 12:30 IST
Air India has responded to our story published below yesterday with a statement.
  • Repairs of Engine cowling and randome [sic] are carried out as part of routine maintenance.
  • Engines have been removed to meet aircraft engine combination and will be installed at the appropriate time.
  • Out of 5 aircraft planned for sale to Ethihad [sic] airlines 3 have been delivered.
  • Process of delivery of other 2 on the way.
  • VT ALH is standing outside the hangar in view of the space taken by other aircraft.
  • This aircraft will be attended after the delivery of the remaining aircraft.

I'm not sure what is meant by 'attended' but to me it implies that it is not going to be scrapped.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Nimish
Posts: 2969
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:46 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:10 pm

Quoting n471wn (Thread starter):
Boeing 777 (VT-ALH #36307) is now being scrapped at BOM. This 2009 build aircraft was damaged (spar) but was clearly repairable but I guess repairs are difficult to make in India. Sad to see such a new 777 bite the dust

Source?
Incredible India!
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8612
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:21 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 15):

Source?

No need to provide source when you are making unsubstantiated statements about AI.
All posts are just opinions.
 
kaitak
Posts: 9975
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:31 pm

Very sad to see what's happening to 'ALH, but hopefully they'll get it fixed.

We know what's happening to VT-ALA to 'LE and of course, we know what the situation is with 'ALH, but what about 'ALF and 'ALG?
 
n471wn
Topic Author
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:24 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 15):
Source?

ATDB.aero
 
n471wn
Topic Author
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:39 pm

the issue here is the word "attended" as this could mean either repair or the start of scrapping---does anyone here understand how this word is used in India?
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1874
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:57 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 9):
I am quite sure the insurance companies, AI, Boeing and others went over the numbers and determined it was not financially viable to repair this a/c and return it to service

That may be the case for this particular aircraft but the fact remains that AI isn't all that well known for proper utilization of its fleet. There are apparently, two fully airworthy 744s gathering dust in BOM right now. AI does not know how or where to use them.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 17):
but what about 'ALF and 'ALG?


They are looking for buyers for those as well.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 13):
Plan is to store it outdoors for long term and fix issues only when there is a buyer.

   Bad plan that. The salty and humid atmosphere of BOM is completely unsuitable for long term, external storage of planes. I am quite sure VT-ALH has serious corrosion issues, in addition to its (pathetic) overall condition. It is probably not going to be possible to get it flying again.

[Edited 2014-03-29 09:59:40]
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2638
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 19):
the issue here is the word "attended" as this could mean either repair or the start of scrapping---does anyone here understand how this word is used in India?

The word is used in India just the same way it is used elsewhere in the world.....question should be, what was the intention of the person who prepared the AI statement, not how it is used in India....
 
n471wn
Topic Author
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:05 pm

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 20):
The salty and humid atmosphere of BOM is completely unsuitable for long term, external storage of planes. I am quite sure VT-ALH has serious corrosion issues, in addition to its (pathetic) overall condition. It is probably not going to be possible to get it flying again

I wonder why then AI simply does not say so......are they afraid to say it is going to be scrapped?
 
global2
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:50 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:13 pm

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 20):

Bad plan that. The salty and humid atmosphere of BOM is completely unsuitable for long term, external storage of planes. I am quite sure VT-ALH has serious corrosion issues, in addition to its (pathetic) overall condition. It is probably not going to be possible to get it flying again

To say nothing of the corrosive air pollution there...
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 7619
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:32 pm

Just a thought, do AI own the frame outright,finished paying off the bank. Or do they continue making the repayments and sell/use the parts?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 25009
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:18 pm

Quoting gr8circle (Reply 21):
The word is used in India just the same way it is used elsewhere in the world.....question should be, what was the intention of the person who prepared the AI statement, not how it is used in India....

Ok then, dictionary.com gives us:

attended at·tend [uh-tend]
verb (used with object)
1. to be present at: to attend a lecture; to attend church.
2. to go with as a concomitant or result; accompany: Fever may attend a cold. Success attended her hard work.
3. to take care of; minister to; devote one's services to: The nurse attended the patient daily.
4. to wait upon; accompany as a companion or servant: The retainers attended their lord.
5. to take charge of; watch over; look after; tend; guard: to attend one's health.
verb (used without object)
8. to take care or charge: to attend to a sick person.
9. to apply oneself: to attend to one's work.
10. to pay attention; listen or watch attentively; direct one's thought; pay heed: to attend to a speaker.
11. to be present: She is a member but does not attend regularly.
12. to be present and ready to give service; wait (usually followed by on or upon   to attend upon the Queen

And the AI statement was:

Quote:
This aircraft will be attended after the delivery of the remaining aircraft.

This is pretty ambiguous to me. A nurse can be attending to a dying patient, so in such context it could mean the aircraft will be scrapped.

It makes me wonder if the intent was to be ambiguous.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
MHTripple7
Posts: 591
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:17 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:24 pm

Quoting gr8circle (Reply 10):
   first sensible comment on this post.....most members on this forum just love to trash AI, given the things they hear about the airline (mostly on this forum itself)......you end up reading senseless emotional comments like....

His post was sensible, however, AI still very much messed this up in my eyes. VT-ALH is AI's newest 77L and would subsequently be worth more than any other 77L in their fleet. I find it highly unlikely that scrapping this aircraft was the financially viable option. Remember when a RAM 767 landed nose first at JFK and had to have a section of its fuselage repaired? That aircraft was worth less and from what I can see, the damage was more severe.

As Itbewr mentioned, the decision to scrap this aircraft probably had to do with poor company culture or financial inability.
 
AirIndia111
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:52 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:42 pm

According to this article from January 2014, they plan to sell the remaining 3 77L's which includes VT-ALH.

http://articles.economictimes.indiat...bi-based-etihad-airways-total-debt

VT-ALF / VT-ALG are not in scheduled service anymore and occasionally turn up as substitutes whenever a 787 / 77W goes tech / delayed.

Moreover, as DTW2HYD pointed out, the tender for repairing VT-ALH is already under process. I guess they were waiting for funds to be available from the EY deal before repairing ALH and putting up all 3 for sale together.
 
n471wn
Topic Author
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:14 pm

Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 27):
Moreover, as DTW2HYD pointed out, the tender for repairing VT-ALH is already under process. I guess they were waiting for funds to be available from the EY deal before repairing ALH and putting up all 3 for sale together.

Great news!!
 
fanofjets
Posts: 2030
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2000 2:26 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:08 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 6):
The aircraft looks to be in terrible shape. Very sad.   

It's always very sad to see an aircraft being stripped for parts; that this plane is so new makes it harder. I hope the news in the last few posts is true, that this airplane will be cleaned up and refurbished.

I am also saddened by the remarks about Air India. I am not an expert on the business side, so I cannot offer an opinion, but when I flew AI back in 1990, my experience was very positive. The crew was very professional; the flying was among the best I have experienced. I admit I have a soft spot for Air India and the nation it represents, having lived in Mumbai for two years. I endured one of those 1960s marathon flights back to Europe and the USA on a Boeing 707. It was a long, long trip, but I was treated very well. I hope Air-India gets "back on its feet" soon.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Petr Popelar
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Richard Vandervord


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.

The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2638
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:02 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 25):
It makes me wonder if the intent was to be ambiguous.

Yeah, I think that's more likely......they want to keep it vague when making statements to the press......

Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 26):
culture or financial inability.

So, doesn't financial inability to fix the plane and bring it back into service mean "taking the most sensible financial decision"? Same thing, isn't it.....

Quoting fanofjets (Reply 29):
I endured one of those 1960s marathon flights back to Europe and the USA on a Boeing 707. It was a long, long trip, but I was treated very well. I hope Air-India gets "back on its feet" soon.

Yes, AI was known for it's service and hospitality back then.......unfortunately, those days are gone now, with government appointed clowns running the show....but they are still good at times.....on domestic India sectors I found their planes and service to be at par with or better than the competition.....not flown them on international of late....
 
Prost
Posts: 2592
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:38 pm

As so many of the components of the 777-200LR (not a popular model in the least) are interchangeable with the 777-300ER (wildly popular model) would it be surprising if the plane were used as a parts donor?
 
n471wn
Topic Author
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:51 pm

I am being told that the a/c has a broken spar......can anyone confirm this?
 
AirIndia111
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:52 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:24 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 32):
I am being told that the a/c has a broken spar......can anyone confirm this?

I have also heard that the aircraft had a cracked undercarriage spar which AI did not bother to repair since:

a. They did not have the money.
b. They had surplus 777's.

This was what initially led to the grounding of ALH. Now that they have the money and want to dispose off all the 77L's, they are planning to get it repaired.

By the way, they have recently closed a tender on 26th March for Fan Cowl Repair of a 77L. May be this is also for ALH?

http://mmd.airindia.co.in/aimmd/tender/RFQ120320140.html
 
n471wn
Topic Author
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:29 pm

Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 33):
This was what initially led to the grounding of ALH. Now that they have the money and want to dispose off all the 77L's, they are planning to get it repaired.

Wow this is great news!!
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 25009
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 27):
According to this article from January 2014, they plan to sell the remaining 3 77L's which includes VT-ALH.

That looks to be an unambiguous report from an official source, so no scrapping!  
Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 27):
I guess they were waiting for funds to be available from the EY deal before repairing ALH and putting up all 3 for sale together.

The article (or at least the way I read it) suggests different reasoning. It quotes AI as saying "We tried different configurations for the planes, but saw nothing is working out. So we are planning to sell those too.", which means to me that they thought they could find a way for the last 3 to become profitable but in the end they could not. Perhaps your notion was at play as well, but AI is not saying so.

It goes on to say that the goal is to take in enough money to retire the debt on those three frames. I presume that debt includes the debts incurred bringing ALH back to flight status.

It also says, "like the last five, Air India has found ample demand among foreign carriers for these planes as well", which is a bit surprising since the 777L traditionally seems to be difficult to resell. However, if one sets the sale price low, it becomes easier, and the article says EK paid $350 million for five frames, or $70M each.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:29 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 35):
and the article says EK paid $350 million for five frames, or $70M each.

It says they were sold to Etihad (EY), not Emirates.
 
n471wn
Topic Author
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:49 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 15):
Source?

My source was atdb.aero and I have nothing against AI....I am just interested in the a/c
 
BLRAviation
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:19 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:55 pm

Friends, I was distressed by these pictures which is why I wrote the story. Further, like others on A.net, I was very confused by the fact that AI was scrapping its NEWEST 77L to repair and refurbish its oldest 77Ls. As we have said in the story

Quote:
It is confusing why Air India would choose to ground its newest Boeing 777-200LR while continuing to operate its older LR aircraft. A newer aircraft will naturally have lower operating and maintenance costs.

The day before publishing the story, I tried to contact Mr. Rao head of AI public relations and Mr. Nandan the Chairman and Managing Director. I called their cell phones, no reply. I sent SMS to Mr Nandan, no reply. 16 hours before publishing the story, I sent an e-mail (quoted below) no reply.

Quote:

Dear Mr. Nandan
cc: Mr. Rao

Greetings. I am writing this mail after being unable to reach you.

We are publishing a story tomorrow morning 11am, with photos which show the stripping and cannibalisation of B77L VT-ALH at Mumbai airport. We are given to understand that this is the newest B77L in the AI fleet, being delivered in late August 2009, i.e. less than five years old.

1.
We seek your kind response on why is this aircraft being cannibalised, despite being the newest B77L in your airline's fleet?
2.
Is the cannibalisation being driven by a lack of funds preventing buying parts, or is it as part of a cost reduction exercise?
3.
This aircraft has been shown in "storage" since 2012. We are given to understand that the aircraft has suffered major structural damage during a heavy landing. Please confirm. If we are wrong, please indicate why this aircraft was in storage, despite being the newest which rightfully should have given you the lowest operating cost?
4.
Is there a plan for repair of this aircraft and bringing it back to full airworthiness specification? If yes, can you please share broad outlines?

If you would like to convey your answers verbally, please let me know a convenient time to call.

Thanks in advance

Kind regards

We finally published the story after 12 Noon and not 11am as in our mail. We are not here to trash AI, but if national wealth is being squandered, we will want to expose it, just as many concerned citizens do on A.net.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 16):
No need to provide source when you are making unsubstantiated statements about AI.

My sources are from AI itself. People around the airport have taken pictures of the aircraft and pictures speak more than words.

The sources have confirmed that electronics, avionics, and engine/parts have been removed and fitted on to the LRs being sold to EY. The cabin is intact. It is unclear whether the under-carriage spar is cracked or not.

More photos are on this forum http://airlinersindia.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=13443&start=80. A wide angle image taken on Mar 22, 2014 is here. http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3804/13331380385_2714a8606c_b.jpg

You will observe there is a jack supporting the right main undercarriage which lends credence to the spar crack theory.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
The article has been updated:

The day AFTER the story was published, Air India PR hounded me every 10 minutes asking us to take down the story. We offered them to put a re-joinder, and have put it as is with their spelling mistakes. The one point we would not accept at face value was a junior PR person telling us the aircraft is not damaged. We once again requested clarification along with date of the last flight, storage etc., we are still waiting for an answer. We requested for an interview with the head of 777 maintenance, it was refused. We asked to visit the aircraft along with the airline staff, it was denied. We asked for details of when the aircraft last flew, when it was stored etc. No answer for over one week.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 13):
It is neither scrapped nor being scrapped. It doesn't look cute and cuddly with all the dirt which is common for a plane stored outside in that region.

Plan is to store it outdoors for long term and fix issues only when there is a buyer.

This is good news. Would you by chance have a time-frame for this restoration? Since the airline refused to answer us this question as well.

For sure parts have been removed from ALH to repair and bring up to spec ALA to ALE which are being delivered to EY.

Our sources say a lack of funds is the reason why the plane is being sourced for parts. This is known for some time. In April 2013, Bloomberg ran a story about AI 777s being grounded due to lack of funds for parts and repairs. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...llion-bailout-corporate-india.html

Quoting kaitak (Reply 17):
We know what's happening to VT-ALA to 'LE and of course, we know what the situation is with 'ALH, but what about 'ALF and 'ALG?

The Economic Times says AI plans to sell it, but there have also been reports the airline plans to keep the three. Given the lack of engagement of the airline with any media, and the fact that Rajiv Gandhi Bhawan, not AI management, runs the airline, one cannot be sure.

Quoting Prost (Reply 31):
As so many of the components of the 777-200LR (not a popular model in the least) are interchangeable with the 777-300ER (wildly popular model) would it be surprising if the plane were used as a parts donor?

And .... apparently this (parts donors) is being done for the AI/IC narrow body A320 fleet also.
I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
 
n471wn
Topic Author
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:43 pm

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 38):
The Economic Times says AI plans to sell it, but there have also been reports the airline plans to keep the three. Given the lack of engagement of the airline with any media, and the fact that Rajiv Gandhi Bhawan, not AI management, runs the airline, one cannot be sure.

Many thanks for your excellent recap!!
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20951
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:57 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 13):

It is neither scrapped nor being scrapped. It doesn't look cute and cuddly with all the dirt which is common for a plane stored outside in that region.

Plan is to store it outdoors for long term and fix issues only when there is a buyer.

Why is AI taking so long to offload a depreciating asset? With the soon to enter service A359, the resale values of 77Ls will depreciate faster due to new (more efficient) competition. Very few airlines are making a go at ULH, so these are being sold as more efficient 77Es.

Also don't forget it looks like Boeing has done an excellent job of handling the wing cracks on the 787. So the time component on the depreciation will accelerate its impact. Not to mention the 789 will fill many of the roles the 77Ls could be used for. (Note: I really doubt anyone will fly them ULH other than EY as a 'new customer.')

At some point it is too pricey to put a 'parts donor' back into service.'

Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
VT ALH is standing outside the hangar in view of the space taken by other aircraft.
This aircraft will be attended after the delivery of the remaining aircraft.

I join the crowd in asking what that means.

Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 33):

Quoting n471wn (Reply 32):
I am being told that the a/c has a broken spar......can anyone confirm this?

I have also heard that the aircraft had a cracked undercarriage spar which AI did not bother to repair since:
Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 38):
You will observe there is a jack supporting the right main undercarriage which lends credence to the spar crack theory.

Is the plane asymmetrically jacked? It is very common to jack stored aircraft to preserve struts/tires. I wasn't able to see the jack in the photos of the links.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 38):
The sources have confirmed that electronics, avionics, and engine/parts have been removed and fitted on to the LRs being sold to EY.

   While it is common to moved avionics off of stored aircraft, that is an added expense to refly. If AI waits too much longer, the resale value will be below the value they must sell at... While I think the 77L is an amazing plane, we're about to see its resale values go the way of the A345... There just isn't much market demand for the 'shortie.'



Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
BLRAviation
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:19 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:10 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 40):
While it is common to moved avionics off of stored aircraft, that is an added expense to refly. If AI waits too much longer, the resale value will be below the value they must sell at...

Excellent point. Costs are only going to increase.

I have never questioned the practice of taking parts from a grounded aircraft for fitments on to other airframes. Like others I too was confused as to why AI would ground its newest 77L in favour of older ones.

From this trip report, looks like AI's 788s are also being neglected. http://www.hkspotting.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7497
I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8612
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:52 pm

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 38):
My sources are from AI itself. People around the airport have taken pictures of the aircraft and pictures speak more than words.

The sources have confirmed that electronics, avionics, and engine/parts have been removed and fitted on to the LRs being sold to EY. The cabin is intact. It is unclear whether the under-carriage spar is cracked or not.

If your source is from Mumbai who is trying to stir up AI/GoI (in other words UPA-II) is neglecting "Maharashtra" during election season!!! Better spin would be any 777 with a State name which doesn't vote for UPA is vulnerable. I can do even better by saying UPA-II sold "Andhra Pradesh" and "Assam" ... to Middle East. That is catchy.

As I posted earlier, AI GE90s are covered by GE OnPoint Solution Management. So there is no reason for AI to swap ALH engines to ALA-ALE.

Boeing and GE are always at AI's disposal to help with best practices and to protect investment. So there is no need for AI to use TinkerBell techniques, as it is assumed. There were rumors about ALA-ALE condition/paperwork, at the end AI was able to sell those. There is no market for 77Ls and those really need doesn't care how dirty the carpet is or if painting is bad.

Removing engines, removing electronics and jacking up all are best practices for long term storage. You must be aware airlines even lease out engines from aircraft in long term storage to generate revenue.

Granted AI has no PR skills (as I understand they don't even have a PR company, RFP is just out), and its employees are protected from any action against their own employer. If it is some other airline it will take legal action against any employee and any media outlet spreading incomplete information.

Do you think a potential buyer decides by media stories or based on their own inspection and input from Boeing and GE. That is the reason AI really doesn't care.
All posts are just opinions.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20951
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:32 pm

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 41):
From this trip report, looks like AI's 788s are also being neglected.

I hope not... hopefully it was just a rushed day on the 788. India cannot afford another IT leasing debacle... It would handicap all of their airlines for a decade...

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 42):
Removing engines, removing electronics and jacking up all are best practices for long term storage. You must be aware airlines even lease out engines from aircraft in long term storage to generate revenue.

It isn't normal to do long term storage of aircraft less than ten years old due to the high depreciation rates. These frames are costing AI about $800k a month (I SWAGGED lease revenue from pulled items). These should be sold or flying.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 42):
That is the reason AI really doesn't care.

AI doesn't care as the GoI covers their losses.

Air India was also able to reduce its operating losses by 44 per cent to Rs 2,100 crore compared to Rs 3,800 crore in 2012-13, the estimates drawn up for the financial year’s closure showed.

http://freepressjournal.in/significa...air-indias-performance-parameters/

Now, the losses are *far* better than prior. But AI still isn't being managed for a reasonable rate of return...

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8612
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:10 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 43):
These should be sold or flying.

Selling is the only option. Flying is not an option because they cannot even breakeven and impacts lot of KPIs. Never should have bought 77Ls in the first place.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 43):
AI doesn't care as the GoI covers their losses.

You can't have both ways. Only one argument can be true. If GoI is bankrolling there is no need to cannibalize. Just ask for more bailout money. And every political coalition ready to dole out money to AI.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 43):
Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 41):
From this trip report, looks like AI's 788s are also being neglected.

I hope not... hopefully it was just a rushed day on the 788.

May be this is the CHS build quality people were talking about.
All posts are just opinions.
 
n729pa
Posts: 1197
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:16 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:32 pm

Such a shame. I couldn't help but think, if this was Iran Air, they would have got her going again probably. They returned to service one of their SPs that suffered a heavy landing and had been out of service for a long period.

Never good to see good machinery go to waste.

Personally, if this is the care they take with a plane that is being stored, what care are they taking of those they are flying? If you don't take care of things, it doesn't matter what they are, the lack of care is still present.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20951
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:41 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 44):
Never should have bought 77Ls in the first place.

This we agree on.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 44):
You can't have both ways. Only one argument can be true. If GoI is bankrolling there is no need to cannibalize. Just ask for more bailout money. And every political coalition ready to dole out money to AI.

The GoI had a cash flow issue earlier when the Rupee dropped. So actually it is consistent. AI just thinks they'll get the money, but short term the cash flow is a problem.

Put another way:
AI is still being managed as if there is an infinite kitty to draw from. e.g., staff have not been cut as they should have been.
But.... The money is only trickling in from the GoI.

I submit how long its taking for the 787s to be financed as an example of AI's issues. But payments will be made... It was just a cash crunch earlier this year for the GoI.

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8612
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:33 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 46):
I submit how long its taking for the 787s to be financed as an example of AI's issues.

As I posted earlier most of the aircraft financing is done by financial institutions in China. Last two AI 787's were financed within the country (Bank of India). Not clear 13 & 14 or 14 & 15. So while we crunch numbers China is doing lot of Asia's aircraft leasing and financing. What US/EU financial institutions think is irrelevant.
All posts are just opinions.
 
BLRAviation
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:19 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:30 am

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 42):


In response to your statement, my earlier reply quoted below. In no industry I am aware of, does one strip their newest asset in favour of the oldest asset.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 41):
I have never questioned the practice of taking parts from a grounded aircraft for fitments on to other airframes. Like others I too was confused as to why AI would ground its newest 77L in favour of older ones.

and just to highlight, even Kingfisher put protective film on wind-shields, sealed the doors, protected the pitot tubes, and other measurement "orifices" etc. when it grounded its aircraft. AI has just left the plane out in the open. Why have these basic storage practices not been followed?

I shudder to think what damage the humidity and salt air of Bombay has done to the interiors of the plane.
I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
 
BLRAviation
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:19 pm

RE: Another Air India Scrapping

Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:33 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 43):
Air India was also able to reduce its operating losses by 44 per cent to Rs 2,100 crore compared to Rs 3,800 crore in 2012-13, the estimates drawn up for the financial year’s closure showed.

Please appreciate that a lot of costs at AI were reduced by creating ground handling and engineering subsidiaries and moving staff to them. In a way it is simply sweeping the proverbial "dirt" under those carpets. Starting with no losses, the figures will take time to accumulate and by that time the losses are substantial in the subsidiaries, the existing "management" from Minister to managers, will be long gone.
I am on Twitter @BLRAviation

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos