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jetblueguy22
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:30 pm

Some members may not be aware of the fact that all members have an edit window of 60 minutes, from the time you first make a post in which to add or remove any additional comments or information into/from the post. Please make use of this feature made available to you, for your own convenience, instead of posting one post after another (doubles, triples or more).

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Due to length part 47 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 48:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 37 (by SA7700 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 38 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 40 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43 (by SA7700 Mar 22 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44 (by SA7700 Mar 23 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47 (by SA7700 Mar 27 2014 in Civil Aviation)

**********************************************************************************************

**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

Flight MH370: New timeline casts doubt on pilot deception theory

MISSING MH370: ACARS cannot be disabled

MISSING MH370: Search for missing aircraft above politics: Hishamuddin


***********************************************************************************************


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[Edited 2014-03-29 12:31:16]
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:52 pm

The "no shit, sherlock" award goes to CNN today

A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
k83713
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:00 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 1):

Nice shot.
 
dvautier
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:02 pm

Can somebody help me out here. Intelsat says that the pings from the missing plane are different so it had to go south and on their word we have millions of dollars of assets combing the south Indian ocean because of these “different” pings described by Intelsat. How are the pings different? I realize that a router ping is a single packet sent by radio wave and is omnidirectional so there could be a different bounce from land as there is from water but the whole idea is sketchy at best. They should explain just how it is “different” and how they arrived at all this. Maybe it’s too “complicated”.
 
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cougar15
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:04 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 1):
The "no shit, sherlock" award goes to CNN today
OH no, us "Gerries" without fancy cable Networks are kinda reliant on .......
We of course take it all with a HUGE grain of salt, especially us ´older Dogs´! Their Interviews conducted by one or 2 Lady´s were ´interestingly diverse´ (just to remain charming...  but this Huge Piece of News really makes me wonder.............

[Edited 2014-03-29 13:31:08]
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:07 pm

Quoting dvautier (Reply 3):
They should explain just how it is “different” and how they arrived at all this. Maybe it’s too “complicated”.

Hi. Look at the images at the bottom of this page: http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0

They are images from a press release by the Malaysian Transportation authority, from Inmarsat via the AAIB. The data was measured from the Doppler shift of the carrier wave from the movement of the satellite which is not compensated for by the system. The predictive model is based on other flights on similar aircrafts on similar tracks at similar times.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:09 pm

CNN covers all angles hoping one it will be correct at the end.

BTW, how are they able to get simulator for so long. I thought those are pretty much booked solid for training.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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cougar15
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:14 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 6):
BTW, how are they able to get simulator for so long. I thought those are pretty much booked solid for training

Dunno about ASPAC, but in the EU..... 1400 Euro´s an Hr to spare and off you go.....!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:22 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 7):
Dunno about ASPAC, but in the EU..... 1400 Euro´s an Hr to spare and off you go.....!

They are using one in Canada. I am sure CNN can afford, but surprised by continuous availability.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:30 pm

From thread 47:

Quote:
Mark AK, Reply 370
The A/C SATCOM terminal knows the A/C location and velocity and it PRE-CORRECTS the Tx signal for Doppler.

If that is accurate then only information that can be extracted from the Doppler shift is a selection of the south track versus north track and nothing else.
 
virtual
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:31 pm

Don't know about the rest of the EU but here in the UK the four Boeing 777 simulators are booked solid around the clock. We hire these simulators for pilot training and, to get B777 slots, it's usually necessary to book months ahead.

Several news channels have hired our B737NG simulator recently due the cockpit layout being reasonably similar to the B777. They would have booked a B777 simulator instead, had it been an option.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:33 pm

I guess the question becomes, how much does it cost for someone to give up their slot? Everyone has a price.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
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cougar15
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:39 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 11):
I guess the question becomes, how much does it cost for someone to give up their slot? Everyone has a price.

.. and certain Cable Networks a huge checkbook..... to keep us glued to screens when really and sadly there is nothing new at all....!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
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ssteve
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:52 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 6):
CNN covers all angles hoping one it will be correct at the end.

BTW, how are they able to get simulator for so long. I thought those are pretty much booked solid for training.

Slate covered this well:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate..._rent_a_real_777_airplane_for.html

Edit. I take it back. Slate just rehashed this:
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/cnns-savidge-not-ready-bust-out-cockpit

[Edited 2014-03-29 13:56:01]
 
flyenthu
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:59 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 6):
CNN covers all angles hoping one it will be correct at the end.

Isn't that Journalism 101- covering all angles? If they were to lean towards one angle or another, wouldn't that be a biased take on an event that is still largely unknown? To be an effective investigator, researcher, you have to approach a problem with an open mind that is receptive to all possibilities- even the most ridiculous. Otherwise, you are vulnerable to tunnel vision and your investigation will go nowhere.

[Edited 2014-03-29 14:00:24]
 
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mercure1
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:24 pm

Here are some fuel flows expressed as Kgs/Hr for the 777-200ER. This assumes a 3% fuel flow increase based on normal degradation.

The likely takeoff fuel was 49t and TOW 220t, I estimate the ZFW at 175t. These figures are for that range.

mercure f-wtcc
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:38 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 14):
Isn't that Journalism 101- covering all angles? If they were to lean towards one angle or another, wouldn't that be a biased take on an event that is still largely unknown? To be an effective investigator, researcher, you have to approach a problem with an open mind that is receptive to all possibilities- even the most ridiculous. Otherwise, you are vulnerable to tunnel vision and your investigation will go nowhere.

True If CNN has investigative journalists. If you are not aware they dumped their entire investigative division in ~2011. Now they just buy stories from Drew Griffin to run specials. If anchors are trying to keep open mind on the fly it is just a "Confused News Network". At least Fox News and MSNBC stay with their position, so we know how much we can believe from their coverage. But with CNN you are out of luck.

Fortunately they have couple of good folks on board for this coverage, 1) Les Abend, a no frill, no preaching real pilot who can give a holistic view of a situation and 2) Miles O'brien who is an experienced investigative journalist. But they share the coverage with 20 others.

[Edited 2014-03-29 15:03:28]
All posts are just opinions.
 
David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:53 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 14):
To be an effective investigator, researcher, you have to approach a problem with an open mind that is receptive to all possibilities- even the most ridiculous. Otherwise, you are vulnerable to tunnel vision and your investigation will go nowhere.

That may be but the ability to prioritise is just as important otherwise you can find yourself wasting a lot of time chasing dead-ends. In practice, a lot of the more ridiculous possibilities have to be left to one side until it seems necessary to consider them.

Did CNN really expect to discover that a 777 might not have difficulty in maintaining altitude after running out of fuel? I think this one definitely deserves a "no shit, Sherlock".
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:55 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 16):
Fortunately they a couple of good folks on board for this coverage, 1) Les Abend, a no frill, no preaching real pilot who can give a holistic view of a situation and 2) Miles O'brien who is an experienced investigative journalist. But they share the coverage with 20 others.

And Mary S just looked like a complete ***** by saying T7's have an automatic descent mode in case of depressurization -- yah right. Said she was getting her information from T7 pilots -- I don't think so. Talk about a political hack.
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 1):
The "no shit, sherlock" award goes to CNN today

At least they didn't call it "breaking news."

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 14):
Isn't that Journalism 101- covering all angles?

Journalism 101 is "do smart journalism." If it was "cover all angles" they'd have to devote time to MH370 disappearing into an alternate universe.

[Edited 2014-03-29 15:41:30]
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
Viscount724
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:48 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 6):
BTW, how are they able to get simulator for so long. I thought those are pretty much booked solid for training.
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 8):
They are using one in Canada. I am sure CNN can afford, but surprised by continuous availability.

It's not a certified simulator used for pilot training and has no motion system. It's amateur-built and cost a small fraction of the cost of the simulators used by airlines. It's referred to as an "entertainment simulator". It's used by the general public who can pay for the experience. Current price $149 (Canadian). I believe the "captain" who appears in most of the CNN simulator segments is a private pilot with no airline experience.
http://uflysimulator.ca/
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:53 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
Current price $149 (Canadian)

Yikes, per hour?

You'd learn more going flying for real at that price.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
flyenthu
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:03 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 17):

Did CNN really expect to discover that a 777 might not have difficulty in maintaining altitude after running out of fuel? I think this one definitely deserves a "no shit, Sherlock".

OK, they are going with MH370 because there is immense interest. What members of A.net might know about aviation, an average person will not, and couple that with this bizarre incident, there is sufficient market for programs related to this flight- and so they are covering it until viewership drops. CNN is also in the business of making $$, and so it would be naive to wonder why they would sensationalize some aspects of this already sensational story. You have got to realize how little the pubic knows about aviation!
 
flymia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:04 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
It's not a certified simulator used for pilot training and has no motion system. It's amateur-built and cost a small fraction of the cost of the simulators used by airlines. It's referred to as an "entertainment simulator". It's used by the general public who can pay for the experience. Current price $149 (Canadian). I believe the "captain" who appears in most of the CNN simulator segments is a private pilot with no airline experience.

I don't know what experience the "captain" has but just from watching you can tell its an amateur sim. A realistic one I am sure and one I would love to have in my garage. But two things make it clear. No motion. And once one of the pilots on air asked them on the sim to set it up at 12,000ft one engine going etc.. The response from the sim crew was it would take time to decent to 12,000ft etc.. Any real sim can just be paused and set up in pretty much any configuration possible. But even FSX can be places at certain altitudes.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:15 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
It's not a certified simulator used for pilot training and has no motion system. It's amateur-built and cost a small fraction of the cost of the simulators used by airlines. It's referred to as an "entertainment simulator". It's used by the general public who can pay for the experience. Current price $149 (Canadian). I believe the "captain" who appears in most of the CNN simulator segments is a private pilot with no airline experience.


Hats off to you.
All posts are just opinions.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:18 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 9):
If that is accurate then only information that can be extracted from the Doppler shift is a selection of the south track versus north track and nothing else.


[edit: ugh, never mind, if the aircraft terminal corrects for aircraft velocity, then you indeed do not get the desired measurement I described below. Just one less constraint, darn...]

That's the main use of Doppler, yes: the north-south motion of the satellite breaks the symmetry of the ping geometry about the equator, and fits only to the southern arc. But that's not all. The Doppler shift can then be used to measure one component of the airplane velocity, projected on the satellite-airplane vector. That's not as nice as a direct measurement of velocity, but it does constrain the reconstruction of a path that fits through all the hourly ping arcs.

You can think of it this way: the velocity of the aircraft has three components. One is measured directly from the Doppler shift. Another is constrained by the assumption that the airplane is flying at a constant altitude (parallel to the surface of the Earth). The remaining unknown third component couples heading and ground speed, i.e. they become a function of each other.

The right framework to pull all this together is probably AGI's satellite toolkit, with external aircraft performance and wind models implemented in Matlab. Then a large number of Monte Carlo trials to build a probability map of the end point of the flight.

There are enough constraints to this problem that it can be solved fairly accurately by those who have the highest quality of input data. The elements that we (the unwashed forum masses) do not have are: (a) detailed radar data to estimate the trajectory and fuel consumption prior to the southbound leg, (b) a detailed load sheet, (c) specific fuel burn data for this particular 777 in its particular state of wear, (d) wind field data, and (e) the arcs for all the other pings before the last one.

[Edited 2014-03-29 16:24:13]
 
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cougar15
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:23 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
Current price $149 (Canadian)

Gosh, I had been after your salmon for years, just never got arround to it, BUT to combine it with SIM sessions on the tripple at those rates, that CA Holiday is more than overdue ....!
Trouble is, what do I do with the Wifey...??
Serious guys, this is sad, ......3 Weeks on and we are no further, and that does trouble me deeply! Begging for some serious sightings.... anything to give us some Level of closure, although finding bitt´s of the WA coast I fear - sadly will give us no real answers for years to come, Ocean currents, "Fremantle Doctors" (daily wind pattern for the Folks in PER) etc etc are gonna make this real awkward, even if we end up finding a couple of seat cussions Floating around (and being a Mariner on the AU West Coast by - former - trade & knowing those Waters well - personal opinion only) I expect that will be the size of it 3 weeks on! !
MH 370.... baffeling - and deeply troubeling me more and more as each day progresses......!

[Edited 2014-03-29 16:26:29]
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:25 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 25):
The right framework to pull all this together is probably AGI's satellite toolkit, with external aircraft performance and wind models implemented in Matlab. Then a large number of Monte Carlo trials to build a probability map of the end point of the flight.

They also had "ping" data from other aircraft on known routes with which to do pattern matching.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
seat1a
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:57 pm

The CNN coverage is beyond comprehension. The network is great for breaking news worldwide, but the coverage of MH370 is trivializing this accident and the tragic human loss by asking panelists to respond to James Bond-like conspiracy theory Tweets, displaying obviously stupid headlines like "777 will struggle to maintain altitude once fuel tanks are empty" (Duh, really?!) and having a banner that said "was MH370 a Zombie plane?". I give up. They've dumbed down the news.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:28 am

Quoting seat1a (Reply 28):
I give up. They've dumbed down the news.

Apparently their international channel is way better than their American channel, which would cover Justin Bieber 24/7 if you let them. That's capitalism for 'ya. It gets them views which translates to ad dollars, what more can I say? I'm of the opinion that maybe some news-channels should be non-profit or state-run. Very fringe opinion. Very off-topic for here.

But if I was watching cable news in America to get information about this tragedy, I would have a much more confused and incomplete picture of the situation than I have now.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
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N328KF
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:16 am

The same law firm that sued Boeing over Asiana 214, alleging manufacturer's fault, has now sued them again over MH370, asserting that it was a "ghost plane."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...-20140330,0,393240.story?track=rss

[Edited 2014-03-29 18:16:28]
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
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ltbewr
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:22 am

There is no doubt this missing aircraft has led to a huge international debate here as well as in our media. It is indeed a unprecedented event in our times so was bound to trigger a lot of political and media pressures.There is also a growing debate of technology from recorders to satellites as well as economic costs to apply the 'best possible' methods could be for such a rare 'perfect storm' event.

The criticism of the primary handling by the Malaysian government has been particularly nasty, some of which is faulty due the proper investigative processes needed and cannot be publicly disclosed. Sadly many believe delayed information of some information caused the loss of the possible site of initial debris when they could have been closer to the crash site, and in turn make it easier for the victims families have some closure as to their loss. Tough criticism from countries who's military radars and satellites have contributed - but more critically how to protect legitimate secrets - that has encouraged even more criticism, especially of the USA.

Of course many want to blame the pilot or FO and that was encouraged by the media told early on of the pilot's extensive home flight simulator setup and support of opposition politicians in Malaysia. Almost as many don't want to blame the pilots due to a blindness to want to believe it and a lack of certain supporting information.

The debate here including politics, the SAR procedures, technology, how planes fly has been busier than peak traffic at LGA.

There is most importantly the families of the victims who very much want to have some confirmation of their loss, some of which have too much belief that in the era of the internet and instant news that how something this horrible could have occurred and we don't know why it happened already.

Despite the huge amount of cooperation, especially in SAR by Australia and eventual gathering of information, we do need to make improvements so that another plane full of people don't become victims from a similar set of event that may have occurred here.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:29 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 21):

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
Current price $149 (Canadian)

Yikes, per hour?

You'd learn more going flying for real at that price.

Not necessarily. It depends what you're training for. If you're training for flying light aircraft, of course going in the actual plane costs as much and that's what you should do. However that doesn't help very much for airliner flying. If you want to fly 737s, you eventually reach a certain point where more hours in a Cessna 172 doesn't move you forward in your training. You're not going to learn much about flying an airliner by continuing to fly a Cessna 172 if you already have a commercial license. However you would learn a huge amount in a few hours in a certified "Flight Training Device" (non-moving sim) with a certified instructor. (Note not the same as an "entertainment sim".)

Flight Training Devices can be very accurate when it comes to instruments and controls. Very useful for procedures training and much less cost than a full motion sim. A FTD is more than enough for, say, instrument currency. Certainly not the same as a a full motion sim when it comes to realism, but if you're practicing, say, instrument approaches, all the knobs, switches and instruments work the same way.

Back in the days of yore (727 era) even airline pilots did much initial training in FTDs, and FTDs are used extensively by type rating companies like Aerostar in Orlando. If you can save hundreds of USD per hour by doing significant parts of your training in an FTD, then moving on to the full motion sim, that's just common sense.

Here's a "retail sim" facility in HK. Note that it has Australian, NZ and Thai approvals for limited instrument training. http://flightexperience.com.hk/the-experience/the-simulator/
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
undertheradar
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:33 am

getting slightly back on topic...finding MH370...I am hoping that as a new search day gets underway, at least one ship is able to reach and recover 'a positive piece of the MH370 puzzle'....(and maybe they already have..as a positive ID can take time especially if it's a 'non aircraft piece') .... so far the biggest shock to me is how much 'crap' that we (humans) dispose of in the worlds oceans..(shocked but not surprised)

[Edited 2014-03-29 18:52:12]
 
prebennorholm
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:45 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 30):
The same law firm that sued Boeing over Asiana 214, alleging manufacturer's fault, has now sued them again over MH370...

Amazing that it actually took more than two weeks for the first ambulance chaser to smell big money over MH370. Are the US law firms getting old and slow?
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:51 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 32):
You're not going to learn much about flying an airliner by continuing to fly a Cessna 172 if you already have a commercial license. However you would learn a huge amount in a few hours in a certified "Flight Training Device" (non-moving sim) with a certified instructor. (Note not the same as an "entertainment sim".)

I know this :P But this isn't a certified simulator, is it? Someone trying to build hours sure wouldn't touch it.

All I'm saying that 150 bucks an hour is a lot to 'have fun' in a 777 sim... If you were planning on doing a lot of that, you could build a pretty good one of your own.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
11Bravo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:59 am

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 33):
I am hoping that as a new search day gets underway, at least one ship is able to reach and recover 'a positive piece of the MH370 puzzle'...

I think we all hope that happens, but I wonder how long they continue with the SAR effort if there are no confirmed "objects" recovered soon? A week, a month? I assume someone will keep looking, in some capacity, for years if necessary. Even if they are searching in the right area, it seems to me that any debris will disperse and/or sink before too much longer. Discouraging.
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Moose135
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:04 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 31):
There is no doubt this missing aircraft has led to a huge international debate here as well as in our media.

Who knew the Coriolis effect could lead to such a heated discussion?  
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
rfields5421
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:20 am

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 14):
Isn't that Journalism 101- covering all angles?

Not really in the past 30 years or so.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 14):
If they were to lean towards one angle or another, wouldn't that be a biased take on an event that is still largely unknown?

Due to a lot of reasons, but mostly costs - news 'investigators' for the past 100+ years have always approached a story with a planned 'angle'. Frankly, most editors and publishers won't authorize a reporter/ producer (the one who does the real journalism work in the TV industry) to pursue a story unless there is a known outcome to the final investigation which provide a 'hook' to sell the story. To justify the costs.

Good reporters do try to look at additional facts which might alter that planned final story - but some don't. CNN's basic premise is that somebody did something wrong. Just who and what is yet to be decided.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 14):
Otherwise, you are vulnerable to tunnel vision and your investigation will go nowhere.

The approval of a story budget based on knowing the outcome is how news organizations try to prevent having reporters pursuing useless stores which go no where. Yes, tunnel vision can lead to problems - the biggest of which is reporting a story which the competition can pick apart your investigation and show you did a poor job. Since FoxNews became the majority news source in the US, CNN has been trying to play catchup, and not doing a great job.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 21):
Yikes, per hour?

You'd learn more going flying for real at that price.

If you can't pass a medical, or you can't ever consider the possibility of actually flying a real plane - $149 per hour isn't a bad price.

My home FSX setup involved a $3,900 computer, a triple monitor setup, pedals, yoke, throttle module, avionics modules, surround sound.

Yes, flying was much more fun. But I never got to land a real plane at Milford Sound or Lukla or London City. Never will. Never got to fly a P-38, never will.

I've also never been forced to cancel a day's flying because of weather on the sim, never been stranded at an airport 250 miles from base when a plane had a mechanical problem, never had to turn back after a half-hour on a five hour cross country - all of which I've had to do in a real plane.

I'm not into flying complex jets and trying to emulate procedures to detail - but I know folks who do.

I also know a young man who became so involved in his FS2002 world with his similar setup emulating a C-17, that he actually pursued his dream and became a C-17 pilot in real life.

Now, don't get me started on how much money I've spent over the past 40 years on model trains - a LOT more.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 34):
Are the US law firms getting old and slow?

No. They have to have some idea of where Boeing failed to file their lawsuits. With no more information than we have - that's pretty hard. Though I'm sure they have all the paperwork ready to go the moment they can fill in that last blank.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
aftgaffe
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:23 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 34):
Amazing that it actually took more than two weeks for the first ambulance chaser to smell big money over MH370. Are the US law firms getting old and slow?

*Sadly* for the US law firms, most everyone on MH 370 is a foreign national, which makes it harder to sign up clients. That plus any solicitation of potential clients is prohibited within the first 45 days following an aviation incident. So someone is (hopefully) going to have some explaining to do.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:27 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 36):
I think we all hope that happens, but I wonder how long they continue with the SAR effort if there are no confirmed "objects" recovered soon? A week, a month? I assume someone will keep looking, in some capacity, for years if necessary. Even if they are searching in the right area, it seems to me that any debris will disperse and/or sink before too much longer. Discouraging.

Yes, it does seem more and more hopeless. If we assume drift due to currents and wind to 1 kt speed, then it has drifted 500 nm now. So even if a debris field is found, then it still leaves a huge and uncertain search field.

Saturday's official search box was 252,000 sq km. That alone is six times the area of my country Denmark. Or a little larger than the area of the UK including Northern Ireland.

I am afraid that we will never know more about MH370. Even if debris is found now, then it takes unbelievable luck to make that help us find the plane in the ocean.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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N328KF
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:29 am

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 39):
*Sadly* for the US law firms, most everyone on MH 370 is a foreign national, which makes it harder to sign up clients. That plus any solicitation of potential clients is prohibited within the first 45 days following an aviation incident. So someone is (hopefully) going to have some explaining to do.

Not so fast. I bet they have some foreign connections, if nothing else due to Asiana 214 and China.

Anyhow, they would probably file against Boeing in Chicago since both they (the law firm) and Boeing are based here.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:31 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 38):
My home FSX setup involved a $3,900 computer, a triple monitor setup, pedals, yoke, throttle module, avionics modules, surround sound.

I'm not ragging on simming at all! But think about it, if you use that $3900 setup for 26 hours, it's paid off compared to the $150/hr one.

I just think that if it's not certified and you're not doing training, why would you spend that money to fly in a virtual 777? I mean, per hour. It doesn't make sense to me.

I'd love to build a nice sim myself when I free up some frivolous spending money.   I'm sure with $3900 you went all out!

[Edited 2014-03-29 19:33:51]
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
KirkSeattle
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:31 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 29):
But if I was watching cable news in America to get information about this tragedy, I would have a much more confused and incomplete picture of the situation than I have now.

Bashing the USA is in a different thread.  

Keep in mind that we also have the BBC, Aljezzera America among others to watch.

Back to topic...

I saw the US Navy Poseidon take off from Perth via FlightTrader 24, but didn't catch any others. I hope for better news soon. I feel so sorry for the families of the passengers and crew.

As for the SAR, as an unprecedented event in modern aviation, I believe it will continue for as long as necessary.

KirkSeattle
 
flyenthu
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:38 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 38):

Due to a lot of reasons, but mostly costs - news 'investigators' for the past 100+ years have always approached a story with a planned 'angle'. Frankly, most editors and publishers won't authorize a reporter/ producer (the one who does the real journalism work in the TV industry) to pursue a story unless there is a known outcome to the final investigation which provide a 'hook' to sell the story. To justify the costs.

What is the "known outcome" in this story as you mention? There is NONE yet. The "hook" of this story is the "unknown," the mystery shrouding it all right after the known first few minutes of the flight. These are what makes this event so remarkable, and hence the considerable public interest.
 
panampaul
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:45 am

More news announced by the Australian Maritime Safety Authority, in particular that, for the first time, Malaysian Air Force jets are joining the hunt.


Search for Flight 370 Enters Week 4 - Malaysian Air Force Jets Join Sorties

Quote:
Australian officials announced an increase in the number of search planes covering a remote area of the southern Indian Ocean looking for the missing Malaysia Airlines jetliner Sunday, and said that none of the objects that had been spotted earlier turned out to be connected with Flight 370.

Several additional ships and aircraft will join the operation Sunday, according to a statement by the Australian Maritime Safety Authority. This includes two Malaysian Air Force C-130 Hercules planes, making a total of ten planes that are looking for clues....

.
 
NAV30
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:53 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 40):
I am afraid that we will never know more about MH370.

I'm afraid that I feel the same way, prebennorholm. If only because the area to be searched is already so large.

Found one thing that strongly suggests that, as far as deaths on board are concerned, these may very possibly have occurred early on. Several recent press articles refer to the aircraft being observed by military radar as having climbed to 45,000 feet early on, and staying there for over 20 minutes. This is the most comprehensive story I've found so far:

"As investigators continue to analyse satellite data in the hope of finding answers on what happened to Malaysia Airlines flight MH370, an industry expert said the plane spent 23 minutes at up to 45,000 feet – way above its maximum altitude – and rendered everyone unconscious from the lack of oxygen, said a report in British tabloid Daily Mail.

The plane's maximum service ceiling is 43,100 feet, but military radar had tracked the aircraft flying at between 43,000 feet and 45,000 feet shortly after the last communication from its cockpit.

"It was tracked flying at this altitude for 23 minutes before descending. Oxygen would have run out in 12 minutes (in a depressurised cabin), rendering the passengers unconscious," said the source.

An expert said although the 777-200ER Boeing aircraft has a maximum service ceiling of 43,000 feet, it can probably fly safely at even greater heights.

But at that altitude, where the atmosphere drastically thins, it would take mere minutes if not seconds for hypoxia – a lack of oxygen – to set in, said the Daily Mail report.

Oxygen masks would have dropped down, but these only supply between five and 10 minutes of gas."


http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/m...itude-may-have-caused-hypoxia-says

This tends to suggest some sort of 'hijack gone wrong,' rather than 'pilot error' or, worse, some sort of 'pilot suicide'?
 
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ssteve
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:58 am

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 45):
More news announced by the Australian Maritime Safety Authority, in particular that, for the first time, Malaysian Air Force jets are joining the hunt.

Search for Flight 370 Enters Week 4 - Malaysian Air Force Jets Join Sorties

I've heard of rocket-powered C-130s, but jets would be a new thing.
 
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ssteve
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:06 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 46):

This tends to suggest some sort of 'hijack gone wrong,' rather than 'pilot error' or, worse, some sort of 'pilot suicide'?

I'm not sure reporters dangling context-starved hypotheticals in front of experienced pilots and then relaying the juiciest quotes actually suggests very much.

Turn and ascent to 45000. .... has something to do with cabin unpressurized and a hijacking? I'm not sure how *either* follows.
 
NAV30
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:20 am

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 48):
I'm not sure how *either* follows.

Nor am I, SSTeve. But I can't see any reason for the normal crew to climb to 45,000 feet, either? Unless one subscribes to the 'mass murder by suicidal captain' theory?

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