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tyler81190
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RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:52 pm

RUMOR:

UA has decided to look for bids in ALL non-protected cities (by the contract that is). This would mean looking at bids for all but about 25 stations. Obviously, there will be several outstations that will not be bid as they have such a large volume of mainline, but there are many others that may soon be on the chopping block.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:15 pm

Well of course that is the path are things going. Huge savings to be achieved by contracting.

They just announced they are farming out ABQ, BUF, CHS, CLT, CMH, DSM, DTW, ELP, FSD, ICT, KOA, LIH, OGG, PNS, SLC for which we had a thread about.

UA Mainline Takes Back DEN CS, Contracts Others (by 175erj Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

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UA444
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:40 pm

Can we outsource Jeff Smisek's job instead?
 
CALMSP
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:45 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):

not entirely true. The announcement was that the company is considering it based on market value. No official announcements have been made.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:53 pm

Never realized that places like FSD were not contracted out. I just assumed they were. Good folks there. I don't like seeing it happen, but if you're wondering why UA lags behind in profit, there's one reason. Higher profits aren't something to cheer about.

[Edited 2014-03-29 13:54:10]
 
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LAXintl
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:59 pm

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 3):
not entirely true. The announcement was that the company is considering it based on market value. No official announcements have been made.

Even according to IAM, United averaged 35% savings by outsourcing the work for the last 6-stations they farmed out last fall.

The courtesy for IAM to bid on the work is just that a courtesy, not a serious belief they can manage to keep it.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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airportugal310
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:01 pm

This 'rumor' has been the source of quite a bit of news here in the Hawaiian islands. Usually mentioned once a day or so on TV news
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cle757
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:15 pm

Smisek is vey anti-employee, he would like to outsource all jobs! and pay $7.00 per hour
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N766UA
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:42 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 2):
Can we outsource Jeff Smisek's job instead?

Yes, please!

This guy continues to ruin the legacy of the globe United jets tote ironically around on their tails. I mean, why WOULD you want happy company employees handling your luggage when low wage/high-turnover couldn't-care-less ramp scum can do it just as well?
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:47 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 4):
Higher profits aren't something to cheer about.

I totally agree, especially when we see what customers have to put up with to make that happen. And vendors and employees if we add what they welched on during BK.

I know companies are in the profit game, I get all that and understand that they're going to be as bad as they can get away with. I just don't get why we celebrate that so much. You'd think we'd dislike getting a lot less for a lot more.

Quoting cle757 (Reply 7):

Smisek is vey anti-employee, he would like to outsource all jobs! and pay $7.00 per hour

Perhaps. As someone who's job it is to bid these contacts, even I don't see value in underpaid labor. You get a much more transient crowd who has no vested interest in making a station a well run organization. With the exception of AA, paying more does generally result in better productivity. If it makes you feel any better, even vendors will refuse to bid certain contacts on that basis. We don't win if we can't keep good folks.
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Jamake1
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:00 pm

Why the IAM would have allowed a clause in their contract to outsource so many of their own employees is the bigger question.
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deltal1011man
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:08 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):

The fact that you think that is uniteds problem is funny but sad.

Delta is just going to keep smoking United if this what united management thinks is the real problem
 
jayunited
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:21 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 4):
I don't like seeing it happen, but if you're wondering why UA lags behind in profit, there's one reason. Higher profits aren't something to cheer about.

You think the ground staff is the reason why UA's profits aren't higher? I wonder what does a top scale customer service agent or baggage handler make at AA, DL and WN v.s. what a UA top scale employee makes? Now while UA does have a very large number of employees making top scale this is this not the reason why UA's profits are suffering.

UA could outsource every ground staff position to the lowest bidder and the underlining problems will still remain problems that Jeff and his team of idiots refuse to address. While UA still has quite a few bitter employees working for the airline employees who In my opinion need to be weeded out the truth is most employees are trying every day to make this airline better but it seems like Jeff and his team just don't really understand how lead and make UA better. And the board of directors they don't care as long as the stock price continues to hold where it is or rise they feel like Jeff is doing an awesome job. But we the ground staff hear every day what our passengers are saying about UA I just don't know what it's going to take to get leadership to hear and listen to what our passengers are saying and outsourcing only means that UA will now have a lot of people who have not vested interest in the companies success. If that is the road to higher profits then more power to them but I highly doubt it is.
 
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:27 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 4):
Higher profits aren't something to cheer about.

In the most basic sense, I disagree.

However, I expect that more outsourcing at UA won't equate to higher long-term profits. Yes, some expenses will decrease, but I predict that the revenue will be reduced, too.

Profit is only realized when revenues exceed costs. In other words, there are two sides to the profit coin and the blind pursuit of cost reductions is often a false economy.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 8):
This guy continues to ruin the legacy of the globe United jets tote ironically around on their tails. I mean, why WOULD you want happy company employees handling your luggage when low wage/high-turnover couldn't-care-less ramp scum can do it just as well?

   You get what you pay for.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
TW870
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:18 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 4):
Good folks there. I don't like seeing it happen, but if you're wondering why UA lags behind in profit, there's one reason.

I hear what you are saying, but UA's more profitable competitors don't necessarily have more outsourced stations. Here in DAY, DL is outsourced below wing, but in-house above. UA was already outsourced below and above wing before the most recent announcement of new outsourced stations (like DSM and FSD). At least on the above-wing side, I think UA already is more outsourced than DL even though its margins are far narrower.
 
175erj
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:33 am

The difference between AA and DL outsourcing and UA is that they maintain some sort of quality control over DGS and American Eagle. Where as United will outsource to the cheapest Joe Blow who has absolutely no skin in the game, and simply does not care. Furthermore United has very limited oversight. When Continental outsourced, they had an actual Continental manager in each station.

United's goal is for the first actual United employee you see will be the flight crew, of course when you're not on one of the bajillion regional jet's they got flying for them.

This may save them a few dollars, but overall its making the company worse off.
 
rising
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:59 am

In reality the real person they are outsourcing to, is you. And most people want more of it, not less.

With boarding passes on your smart phone, self-checked bags, self-boarding- it will soon reach the point where we might be asking- why do they really need anyone at all for these tasks, let alone contractors. Yesterday's staffing model is for yesterday's airline. It looks more to me like they are preparing for the reality of today.

Let's be honest- most people rarely interact with anyone at the airline until the gate anymore. It will only be more so, as more customers manage their travel themselves.
If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:59 am

Quoting jayunited (Reply 12):
You think the ground staff is the reason why UA's profits aren't higher? I wonder what does a top scale customer service agent or baggage handler make at AA, DL and WN v.s. what a UA top scale employee makes? Now while UA does have a very large number of employees making top scale this is this not the reason why UA's profits are suffering.

I don't disagree.


Look kids, Delta could completely send its ramp out, but has 40+ stations. So its pretty clear that this is just more of a smoke show from management. I don't know what UAL's problem is, but I don't believe for a second that it must outsource its ACS outside of hubs to compete with Delta and American.

And I believe Delta has the most above wing in-house stations out of all the airlines.

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 10):

not only why the IAM pushed that turd but how in the hell it got a passing vote.

It is hard to feel bad for these employees, they(or 51%) cut their own throat.
 
apodino
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:01 am

Years ago, right before the US/HP merger some people in the business media were writing that US may be seeking a future for the company by outsourcing their flying and basically having US be nothing more than a brand, with contractors actually operating all the flights. With the merger this never really came to fruition. I mention this because a decade later, this seems to be the exact strategy that UA is pursuing. And yet investors are wondering why the financials have been relatively weak compared to DL and even US/AA.
 
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:07 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 17):
I believe Delta has the most above wing in-house stations out of all the airlines

True, but don't forget that DL's ground isn't unionised, unlike the other majors. This means that they can get away with low-cost hiring practices, such as Ready Reserve, that wouldn't fly at the other carriers, at least not to the same extent that DL does them.

That's not a criticism of unions, DL, or any other airline, but it is reality. Having a lower cost, more flexible workforce generally delivers savings regardless of who is signing the paycheck.
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MaverickM11
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:09 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 18):
Years ago, right before the US/HP merger some people in the business media were writing that US may be seeking a future for the company by outsourcing their flying and basically having US be nothing more than a brand

That was UA not US, the famous "paper airline", with things like EI flying longhaul and I'm sure zillions of consultants cooking up ways to devolve more and more of the airline to outside vendors.

Quoting rising (Reply 16):
Let's be honest- most people rarely interact with anyone at the airline until the gate anymore. It will only be more so, as more customers manage their travel themselves.

  
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dsuairptman
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:10 am

Oustource the executive suite, not the positions of hard working and well paid indviduals that hold service jobs that make the airline run. The customers will notice the difference and the fall out won't be pretty.
GEAUX SAINTS!
 
deltal1011man
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:12 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 19):
This means that they can get away with low-cost hiring practices, such as Ready Reserve, that wouldn't fly at the other carriers, at least not to the same extent that DL does them.

while this is true, other airlines have RR also. (I believe HA(IAM) has the same exact program.)

Even then, Delta has a good chunk of Full timers out there, can't believe they cost is that large of a difference compared to UA.

Quoting rising (Reply 16):
With boarding passes on your smart phone, self-checked bags, self-boarding- it will soon reach the point where we might be asking- why do they really need anyone at all for these tasks, let alone contractors. Yesterday's staffing model is for yesterday's airline. It looks more to me like they are preparing for the reality of today.

and the ramp? my iPhone wont throw my bag.....
and someone will always be at the gate. I don't buy this argument at all honestly.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:21 am

Quoting rising (Reply 16):
Let's be honest- most people rarely interact with anyone at the airline until the gate anymore. It will only be more so, as more customers manage their travel themselves.

Here's the problem, though: for most HVCs, there are and probably always will be ticketing needs that have to be handled by a person. When an 'important' traveler shows up at the gate inquiring about getting on the flight that is already oversold by 5 because his original flight is delayed/cancelled/stuck in Des Moines, it takes some human touch to see that the oversold flight has 15 passengers coming in late from PHX who are going to misconnect and that, as a result, there's no problem putting him on that airplane.

Do I see a more automated future? Absolutely, but I think we are closer to the limit than most realize.
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CALMSP
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:21 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 22):

but you only will need one person at the gate when people board themselves with automated boarding gates.
 
tommy767
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:31 am

Quoting cle757 (Reply 7):

Which is funny -- he went on and on in the safety videos two years ago about providing "dignity and respect" amongst employees. Well, I guess dignity and respect means getting outsourced by another Frank Lorenzo.
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deltal1011man
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:38 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 24):

how many people work the gate at UA?
 
rising
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:39 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 22):

I agree about the bags, but I am not so sure that there will always be someone at the gate for customer service as we have it today.

What always stumps me about these types of discussions though is that it presupposes that by outsourcing service will necessarily suffer. If someone has objective data that shows it does- i'm open to hear it. But often all we hear are anecdotal stories.

Bags get lost by UA employees; they get lost by contractors too. UA has rude gate agents; contractors have rude gate agents. We live in an imperfect world. But I think it is quite cynical to think that contractors are going to act like Ace Ventura delivering packages for UPS.
If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:54 am

Quoting rising (Reply 27):

Bags get lost by UA employees; they get lost by contractors too. UA has rude gate agents; contractors have rude gate agents. We live in an imperfect world. But I think it is quite cynical to think that contractors are going to act like Ace Ventura delivering packages for UPS.

I didn't say that did I?

Quoting rising (Reply 27):
What always stumps me about these types of discussions though is that it presupposes that by outsourcing service will necessarily suffer. If someone has objective data that shows it does- i'm open to hear it. But often all we hear are anecdotal stories.

Delta 2.7 billion, 40+ ramp stations. Call that one anecdotal if you want, looks like trying to get low hanging fruit to cover up a crappy management team to me.

So either Delta's management is stupid, or this isn't the big huge cost saving thing UA and it's fan boys are making it out to be. (not calling you a fan, just for the record)

Quoting rising (Reply 27):
I agree about the bags, but I am not so sure that there will always be someone at the gate for customer service as we have it today.

So you can just hop the gate and run to the plane like at the subway? I will bet anything you want to bet someone will be working the gate. (not only just that but you also have things like upgrades and such that are done at the gate, IROPS etc. Its going to hard to rely on computer to do it all.

Also, if the subway system, tested by UA and DL at least, has been such a home run why do only less than 10(AFAIK) gates in the world for these two carriers have them? CO was testing them before the merger at IAH and AFAIK the program hasn't been expand much.

I didn't say it wasn't logical or will = terrible customer service. I think the argument that its some great cost saving move by management that is normally said is a big load of horse poo though.
 
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ADent
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:57 am

What did the IAM get in return?

Pre-Merger UA at least had to staff mainline stations.

Anybody have a list of protected stations?
 
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ua900
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:05 am

Quoting 175erj (Reply 15):
When Continental outsourced, they had an actual Continental manager in each station.

So how come the former CO CEO doesn't do this at UA?

Quoting jayunited (Reply 12):

I have seen plenty of UA employees bust their butts for me over the years, it's sad to see this type of gutting coming from the inside of the organization. These types of moves seem penny wise pound foolish. Sustainable profits come from good products, for UA to compete against superstar DL and rising AA they'll need to improve their services, not outsource them. Whatever happened to flyer friendly, or dare I say, United rising? If I follow the advertisements, there is a notion that UA is returning to the Friendly Skies themes through the current xyz-friendly campaign when real ops changes send a very different message.

Quoting rising (Reply 16):

I can see less service and interaction being true for kettles, but it's a different game with elites. When you stand in a 1k checking line that has become a Premier Access line and they bark at you to use the self service terminal instead of handing your ID to the agent there is something missing in the customer experience. Same with club agents or gate agents, when you need a change they are often able to help and prevent stuff from hitting a wall. I appreciate the outstanding customer service examples I have seen and hope that Jeff gets stuck in Timbuktu.
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deltal1011man
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:07 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 29):
Anybody have a list of protected stations?

IIRC its the hubs, EWR,CLE,IAH,ORD,LAX,SFO,DEN,IAD and then JFK, LGA, BOS, DCA, SEA, MCO, LAS.

I think that 15 out of 19(?).

Oh missed GUM as a hub. Sorry 16.

[Edited 2014-03-29 21:13:57]
 
homer787
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:07 am

Quoting rising (Reply 16):

In reality the real person they are outsourcing to, is you. And most people want more of it, not less.

With boarding passes on your smart phone, self-checked bags, self-boarding- it will soon reach the point where we might be asking- why do they really need anyone at all for these tasks, let alone contractors. Yesterday's staffing model is for yesterday's airline. It looks more to me like they are preparing for the reality of today.

Let's be honest- most people rarely interact with anyone at the airline until the gate anymore. It will only be more so, as more customers manage their travel themselves.

That may apply when the weather is perfect, and there are no glitches across the sky in Utopia… My smartphone hasn't figured out how to book me on another flight on a different airline because the weather has gone to hell. Thank you gate agents and customer service reps for doing a fantastic job!

I hope that UA makes some positive changes that improve company morale before it is too late. Angry, underpaid employees upset regular customers. Those customers choose to fly with other airlines. Ask Wal-Mart how cutting all of their floor staff, stockers, and cashiers has helped their company growth in the long term. You MUST invest in your employees in order to succeed in the long run.
 
CALMSP
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:11 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 29):

AUS/BOS/BWI/CLE/DCA/DFW/FLL/GUM/HNL/JFK/LAS/LGA/MCO/MSP/MSY/PDX/PHL/PHX/PIT/SAN/SEA/SNA/TPA
 
175erj
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:17 am

Quoting ua900 (Reply 30):

It cost's money. Clearly, Continental saw the value in this expense, and the 'new' United does not.... It's all about extracting the most return for the shareholders at this point and nothing is safe at United right now.

For those of us who interact with United on a daily basis it has become clear that the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. Quite frankly, I am not sure anyone knows what they are doing. It's almost as if they have given up and are hoping the ship will right itself. The decisions that are coming from management are just asinine. I think they have completely lost focus on what it takes to run a world class airline and think that if they keep telling themselves and customers through adverts that they are 'world leading' and 'flyer friendly' that someone may actually believe it.

They are light years behind Delta and to some extent American when it comes to passenger experience....its almost as if its two steps back, one step forward for them.

[Edited 2014-03-29 21:19:20]
 
737tdi
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:25 am

I read all of the responses and I did not see an answer to the problem. Competition drives prices lower, which flyers expect, but it also forces the airlines to, either offer lower wages, or contract the labor. What has not been said here is how much a direct hire, in a smaller market, contributes in the city in which they work. If you are a contract/temp employee your level of home steading in that city are less. If you are a direct employee and make decent wages you will tend to purchase property, homes, permanently engross themselves in the lifestyle. Contract/temp. is an economic failure. Does this not hurt the town/city in the long run? My point being everyone wants cheaper tickets but those cheaper tickets are actually costing the business in these towns/cities in the long run.



In other words the ends provide the means. Have cheaper business fares but destroy your own business from the inside because there are no customers to support your business. The people that live in your town/city can't afford your product because they don't make a decent wage. You as a business get to fly cheaper but there is no one there to purchase your product. There has to be an equal balance.

Sorry I know I skewed a bit off topic but it really does make a difference. The thing is this affects every business in the area. JMO, which isn't very well stated. Sorry.
 
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ua900
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:31 am

Quoting 175erj (Reply 34):

But Jeff ran CO. When the merger first came about and I saw CO crews spread their love for UA, I felt that the occasional condescending arrogance towards UA came in part from a perception that CO is better, including liking Jeff over Glenn.

Now with Jeff being at the helm of CO dba UA it seems that there is a perception that he is UA when he's really CO. Glenn was seemingly unenthusiastic about UA, but at least he was consistent. Did Jeff's character change when he and his cronies took over UA?
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MSPNWA
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RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:52 am



Quoting jayunited (Reply 12):
You think the ground staff is the reason why UA's profits aren't higher?

Did you read what I said? One reason. That's it. Not THE reason or anything else. It's sad to see, but the labor market is simply in favor of the employer. These are not high skilled jobs unfortunately. Cuts like this are how the airlines are making bigger profits. That's why I don't cheer the record earnings.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 12):
While UA still has quite a few bitter employees working for the airline employees who In my opinion need to be weeded out the truth is most employees are trying every day to make this airline better but it seems like Jeff and his team just don't really understand how lead and make UA better.

I've said this in past threads and will say it again. The UA management team is in a no-win situation. If they make the hard changes they need to make to earn more profits, they will get criticized. If they don't make the changes and their financials keep lagging (even though they're still solid), they get criticized as well. Take the flight attendant union leaders for example. How about you settle your differences so that both you and the airline can move forward. This inefficiency of dual contracts is just shooting yourself in the foot. Some people need an attitude adjustment.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 13):
However, I expect that more outsourcing at UA won't equate to higher long-term profits. Yes, some expenses will decrease, but I predict that the revenue will be reduced, too.

This is a cut that will do next to nothing for the revenue side of the equation. It may even raise it. Good customer service isn't dependent on being in-house.

Quoting TW870 (Reply 14):
I hear what you are saying, but UA's more profitable competitors don't necessarily have more outsourced stations.

Obviously right now there isn't a big difference in the number of outsourced stations between DL and UA. But this is an area that UA can take the lead on. Wouldn't surprise me to see others follow suit down the road. Like I said I'm surprised some of these stations were still in-house. I had just assumed they weren't.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 19):
True, but don't forget that DL's ground isn't unionised, unlike the other majors. This means that they can get away with low-cost hiring practices, such as Ready Reserve, that wouldn't fly at the other carriers, at least not to the same extent that DL does them.

Absolutely. It could be that DL is already at "outsourced" levels.

Quoting rising (Reply 27):
What always stumps me about these types of discussions though is that it presupposes that by outsourcing service will necessarily suffer. If someone has objective data that shows it does- i'm open to hear it. But often all we hear are anecdotal stories.

Totally agree. Now I've had excellent service in general by UA, but as a whole, contracting employees are the best in the industry. They work hard for you and manage to smile while they do it. Honestly, outsourcing above wing might be a service gain. It's the inconvenient truth.

[Edited 2014-03-29 21:54:44]
 
175erj
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:25 pm

RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:21 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 37):

Are you kidding? Contract employees could care less. In most cases, they don't get flight benefits and are paid minimum wage... I don't know what station you travel in and out of where these agents are just so 'top notch' but I can assure you its definitely not the norm. Contract agents have nothing to work for and are usually at a disadvantage when it comes to resources.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2109
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:40 am

Quoting ua900 (Reply 36):
Now with Jeff being at the helm of CO dba UA it seems that there is a perception that he is UA when he's really CO. Glenn was seemingly unenthusiastic about UA, but at least he was consistent. Did Jeff's character change when he and his cronies took over UA?

No. Smisek didn't change and from what I gather, he wasn't well thought of at CO as CO's CEO. Have you forgotten that he was CEO at CO for just weeks before pulling the trigger on the UA/CO merger? Have you forgotten that the prior CO CEO - Kellner - walked away from earlier UA/CO merger talks?

It's a false history to believe that Smisek was anything like Bethune or Brenneman.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 37):
Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 13):
However, I expect that more outsourcing at UA won't equate to higher long-term profits. Yes, some expenses will decrease, but I predict that the revenue will be reduced, too.

This is a cut that will do next to nothing for the revenue side of the equation. It may even raise it. Good customer service isn't dependent on being in-house.

So says the MBA lectures and text books. The reality is often somewhat different. As with all things, time will tell.

Quoting ua900 (Reply 30):
So how come the former CO CEO doesn't do this at UA?

Again, he (Smisek) was only CO CEO a short time before the merger. Why has he changed so many things that CO did? I don't know, but ego is the reason I hear most often.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5379
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:54 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 37):
Absolutely. It could be that DL is already at "outsourced" levels.

huh? what are you talking about?
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:01 am

DL is going to stick it to ya. Isn't that the answer? I let the mutts go on, every little thing.
 
pocho
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:39 pm

RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:46 am

Industry leading contract! Too bad UA doesn't believe in putting their employees first.

If the company takes care of the employees, the employees will take care of the customers, and the customers in return will take care of the company. This philosophy seems to work well with WN.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14724
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:33 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 28):
I will bet anything you want to bet someone will be working the gate. (not only just that but you also have things like upgrades and such that are done at the gate, IROPS etc. Its going to hard to rely on computer to do it all.

DL at least has IROPS figured out when they are isolated enough that most folks can be rebooked on DL flights (that tends to be true outside of the northeast when NYC Is the only thing that is messed up).

I can imagine a situation where much of the IROPS human intervention happens at somewhere central rather than the station and there is less need for employees at the station. A lot of carriers are part of the way there; no one is as far down that road as I think is possible.

Quoting 175erj (Reply 38):
I don't know what station you travel in and out of where these agents are just so 'top notch' but I can assure you its definitely not the norm. Contract agents have nothing to work for and are usually at a disadvantage when it comes to resources.

Many (most?) contracted US East stations, which are mostly Piedmont and ZW, are quite good. As many issues as US has with the customer experience, they seem to know how to make contractors do a decent job. In my experience, contracted UA stations are as you have described. AA and DL are more of a mixed bag.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
cle757
Posts: 832
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:28 am

RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:14 pm

UA has lost millions in cargo after outsourcing all CO jobs..thats a fact!
Cleveland the best location in the Nation
 
T5towbar
Posts: 491
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:33 pm

Quoting 175erj (Reply 15):
The difference between AA and DL outsourcing and UA is that they maintain some sort of quality control over DGS and American Eagle. Where as United will outsource to the cheapest Joe Blow who has absolutely no skin in the game, and simply does not care. Furthermore United has very limited oversight. When Continental outsourced, they had an actual Continental manager in each station.

That's the main difference. AA has Eagle and DL has DGS.
They pretty much know their respective partners procedures and processes and it provides a buffer between their own in house employees who are on the "A- Scale". A built in "C" scale workforce.
The irony is that DGS and Eagle does a lot of UA work above and below wing. And ZW in IAD.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 17):
Look kids, Delta could completely send its ramp out, but has 40+ stations. So its pretty clear that this is just more of a smoke show from management. I don't know what UAL's problem is, but I don't believe for a second that it must outsource its ACS outside of hubs to compete with Delta and American.

And I believe Delta has the most above wing in-house stations out of all the airlines.

The top heavy management for starters...........

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 17):
not only why the IAM pushed that turd but how in the hell it got a passing vote.

This "turd" of a contract got passed for a couple of reasons: 1. Retro money that was due to sUA and 2. The promise (or lie) of LOA's #5 & 6 in the contract. Right after the retro payments was being paid out, the cutting and downgrading commenced.

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 10):
Why the IAM would have allowed a clause in their contract to outsource so many of their own employees is the bigger question.

The IAM "figured" that if they could see what the vendors are charging, they could "negotiate" so the agents could stay in their station. A 2/3rds super majority amongst the station's members would approve any such deal. We knew that wasn't going to fly because how you could compete with a vendor that is 35% cheaper?
Most will either retire; take furlough; or try to bump into a station their seniority can hold.

Quoting ADent (Reply 29):
What did the IAM get in return?

Pre-Merger UA at least had to staff mainline stations.

The IAM lost scope in this deal. Nothing much was gained. IMHO, the 2009 bankruptcy contract is much better than this. It had more scope than what was present. All it had to do was to add IAH to the list of protected stations.

IIRC, the pilots lost this clause in their negotiations that all mainline metal had to be worked by UA employees. sCO didn't have such clause since we weren't unionized at the time. Hence we have split operations in some combined stations (ie: stations that are worked by sUA ramp on one side and a vendor working sCO aircraft.) LOA #6 is supposed to address this and get rid of the vendors and turn over the entire ramp to us.

Quoting ua900 (Reply 30):
I have seen plenty of UA employees bust their butts for me over the years, it's sad to see this type of gutting coming from the inside of the organization. These types of moves seem penny wise pound foolish. Sustainable profits come from good products, for UA to compete against superstar DL and rising AA they'll need to improve their services, not outsource them. Whatever happened to flyer friendly, or dare I say, United rising? If I follow the advertisements, there is a notion that UA is returning to the Friendly Skies themes through the current xyz-friendly campaign when real ops changes send a very different message.

It's part of the 2 billion dollar savings plan: cut it's way to profitability.
It's all about the stakeholders. Damn the passenger or the employee.

Quoting homer787 (Reply 32):
I hope that UA makes some positive changes that improve company morale before it is too late. Angry, underpaid employees upset regular customers. Those customers choose to fly with other airlines. Ask Wal-Mart how cutting all of their floor staff, stockers, and cashiers has helped their company growth in the long term. You MUST invest in your employees in order to succeed in the long run.

We are trying our best to do the job in the best way possible. But morale is at an all time low right now.

Quoting ua900 (Reply 36):
But Jeff ran CO. When the merger first came about and I saw CO crews spread their love for UA, I felt that the occasional condescending arrogance towards UA came in part from a perception that CO is better, including liking Jeff over Glenn.

Jeff wasn't head of sCO. He became the boss thru this merger. A lot of us didn't know that Smisek was going to be the head of this airline. But Larry Kellner didn't want any part of the merger and saw himself out. Larry ran CO after Gordon left and had to make the difficult cuts in the middle of the decade when all of the other airlines went thru their BK's. IMHO, Jeff has learned absolutely nothing from Bethune at all, even though he was there when Gordon built back the airline from the depths of the Lorenzo regime.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3456
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:42 pm

Quoting cle757 (Reply 44):

how is that a fact? You didnt supply any facts.
 
LouieP2186
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:15 am

RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:45 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 45):
Jeff wasn't head of sCO

Yes he was.....even if it was a short time he still "technically" was the boss then the merger was announced shortly after.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2109
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:53 pm

Quoting LouieP2186 (Reply 47):
Quoting T5towbar (Reply 45):
Jeff wasn't head of sCO

Yes he was.....even if it was a short time he still "technically" was the boss then the merger was announced shortly after.

That's true, Smisek was CEO of CO for a short time before the merger announcement. But as I stated earlier:

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 39):
No. Smisek didn't change and from what I gather, he wasn't well thought of at CO as CO's CEO. Have you forgotten that he was CEO at CO for just weeks before pulling the trigger on the UA/CO merger? Have you forgotten that the prior CO CEO - Kellner - walked away from earlier UA/CO merger talks?

It's a false history to believe that Smisek was anything like Bethune or Brenneman.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
WJ
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:14 am

RE: RUMOR: UA Looking At Bids For Outsourcing

Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:32 pm

I used to believe, just as many here do, that direct employes that work customer service and ramp care more and are more dedicated than others. Used to. The fact is that this so called "dedication" does not necessarily lead to better performance, more cheerful employees or less lost bags. There are plenty of reasons for it, call it boredom, call it lack of fear for losing a job, call it simply not caring, you can get that at any rate or employer. This is a business and the airlines, just like any public company has a commitment to share holders. The rest is fluff. If you are able to get same or even relatively similar service for 30%-35% less cost, you would be completely irresponsible not doing so. UA and CO had outsourced stations before, so did all other carriers. DGS and Eagle should not be mistaken for direct employees of DL or AA, they are a lower rate, limited benefit employees. This is exactly what this opportunity is for UA IAM employees to keep their employment, albeit at lower costs. Keep in mind that even this level of cost cutting is not necessarily the end of the story, as shown by DL in DTW who recently outsourced their "outsource" in their second largest hub, Shifting all the express work away from DGS to an even lower cost provider.
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