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jetblueguy22
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:12 pm

Some members may not be aware of the fact that all members have an edit window of 60 minutes, from the time you first make a post in which to add or remove any additional comments or information into/from the post. Please make use of this feature made available to you, for your own convenience, instead of posting one post after another (doubles, triples or more).

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Due to length part 48 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 49:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 37 (by SA7700 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 38 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 40 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43 (by SA7700 Mar 22 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44 (by SA7700 Mar 23 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47 (by SA7700 Mar 27 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 29 2014 in Civil Aviation)

**********************************************************************************************

**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

Flight MH370: New timeline casts doubt on pilot deception theory

MISSING MH370: ACARS cannot be disabled

MISSING MH370: Search for missing aircraft above politics: Hishamuddin


***********************************************************************************************


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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:28 pm

From the last thread. Regarding the two arcs, just because the plane flew for another 7 or so hours does not mean it is 7 hours flying time from its last known position on whatever arc it flew. If somebody really wanted to make it hard to find, they could have flown it for, just as an example, 6 hours in one direction and then done a 180 degree turn and flown it back for 1 hour. That will still give 7 hours flying time and still place it the same distance from the satellite on the arc but would mean it went down no where near the extreme end of the arc. IIRC the first SAR area on the Southern arc was pretty much at the extreme end of the arc as if the plane kept the same heading until it went down. It could be a lot farther North if it is even on the Southern arc at all...
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jelliesR
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:24 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 1):
Regarding the two arcs

Since INMARSAT ran a solution showing a southern route fits *all* pings (not the last ping) the best, I don't see how your confusing route could be possible.

Also remember it is very likely that the author of this disappearance did not think that there was any trace at all after radar coverage ended, so they would not be trying to fool anyone once alone and at sea.

Once they were sufficiently away from the coast and any radar, they changed direction once and in their mind that direction change would be unknowable. Since they did not anticipate connectivity, let alone ping latency, let alone doppler shifts, there was no need to make things more complicated.
 
flood
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:30 am

Looks like we have a new map too, apparently shown to the families:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkFeLDXIIAAGi0z.jpg:large
via http://twitter.com/milesobrien/status/450744983281500160/photo/1
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:39 am

Quoting flood (Reply 3):
Looks like we have a new map too, apparently shown to the families:

So it looks like the 040 to 330 heading change shortly after the transponder quit was about a 270 deg turn?

[Edited 2014-03-31 17:39:31]
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
sipadan
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:41 am

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 2):
Also remember it is very likely that the author of this disappearance did not think that there was any trace at all after radar coverage ended, so they would not be trying to fool anyone once alone and at sea.

IMHO Captain Shah would have been well aware about Inmarsat satellite and every other tracking mechanism that could possibly be fathomed.

and the map...from what I am hearing, the Malaysian Minister of Defense at the daily press conference to be held in about 9 hours is expected to confirm this flight track...draw whatever conclusions you so choose.
 
aftgaffe
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:51 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 4):
So it looks like the 040 to 330 heading change shortly after the transponder quit was about a 270 deg turn?

If the new map is accurate--with heavy emphasis on if--it appears consistent with turning off the airway and losing or gaining altitude to avoid traffic. But it hardly appears consistent with beelining towards the nearest (or perceived nearest) runway, a proposition that I believe was at the heart of most of the mechanical failure theories?

[Edited 2014-03-31 17:51:58]
 
11Bravo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:52 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 5):
IMHO Captain Shah would have been well aware about Inmarsat satellite and every other tracking mechanism that could possibly be fathomed.

Immarsat data has never before been used for this purpose. It is not a tracking device. I doubt very much if anyone, including Capt. Shah, anticipated the Immarsat "pings" being used as they have been.
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zeke
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:53 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 1):

The arcs are not flight paths, it is just one possible range ring from the satellite. The diagram is for public consumption.

Direction changes were picked up as a doppler shifts. The aircraft did not maintain a constant doppler shift, the frequency reduced (by about 1000 Hz), so we already know they did not fly a constant arc from the satellite.
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jelliesR
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:53 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 5):
would have been well aware about Inmarsat satellite

He would not be aware that there was information to be mined from those contacts and my bet is that he would not even be aware that after disabling the system, there were still "pings".
Someone could be technically oriented but not to that extent. Even if he knew about the information-free contact pings he would not have anticipated that distance could be extracted from the info, let alone doppler based information.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:54 am

Quoting mandala499, reply=234:
Yes I have come across GAGAN. GAGAN is much cheaper than what we were trying to do because it's a position/navigation satellite while what we wanted was a mobile satellite communications service (like Inmarsat). The costs are hugely different... the weight per satellite will be different too.

GAGAN is not just navigational system. It is an end-to-end SBAS, ATM and Surveillance(ADS-B/C) system. Unlike WAAS(USA), EGNOS(EU) and MSAS (Japan) every component in GAGAN is owned by GoI. US and EU systems still use INMARSAT and Japanese system uses GPS.

ISRO's (Indian Space Research Organization) investment is $619 Million, shared with other applications.
4 Navigational Satellites (IRNSS) substitutes GPS satellites (total 7 satellites for $260 Million)
3 Communication Satellites (GSAT-8(2011,$100 Million), GSAT-10(2012,$125 Million) and GSAT-15(2015, $134 Million) substitutes INMARSAT

Airport Authority of India's investment $140 Million (Raytheon $80 Million, $60 Million others)
15 x Reference Stations (subs WAAS)
3 x Mission Control Centers
26 x ADS Receiver stations



For Indian carriers cost is $2000 per aircraft.

So, if there is will there is a way to provide the service at minimal cost to airlines.

[Edited 2014-03-31 18:02:00]
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:55 am

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 6):

If the new map is accurate--with heavy emphasis on if--it appears consistent with turning off the airway and losing or gaining altitude to avoid traffic. But it hardly appears consistent with beelining towards the nearest (or perceived nearest) runway, a proposition that I believe was at the heart of most of the mechanical failure theories?

i heard on the news that the map was something the families came up with to show to the authorities.
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:00 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 5):
draw whatever conclusions you so choose.

Miles O'Brien has drawn his: "Malaysian authorities showed this image to families of #MH370. If true, it's a blockbuster. Proves intentional act" (from his tweet).
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
CheezWhiz
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:10 am

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 6):

If the new map is accurate--with heavy emphasis on if--it appears consistent with turning off the airway and losing or gaining altitude to avoid traffic. But it hardly appears consistent with beelining towards the nearest (or perceived nearest) runway

To me, it suggests a deliberate attempt to align the plane for a landing at Sultan Ismail Petra Airport. But it passed that airport and flew straight out into the Indian Ocean. At any rate, MH370 should have been seen on their radar.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lapangan+Terbang+Sultan+Ismail+Petra/@5.9039577,102.1120337,8z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x31b6b19b11f26067:0xada502dc9b494fa7

[Edited 2014-03-31 18:19:55]
 
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zeke
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:14 am

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 10):
For Indian carriers cost is $2000 per aircraft.

No way will it be $2000 per aircraft, even just to get the paperwork on the aircraft would cost more than $2000, and that does not include the R&D, design, manufacture, test, and certification. Fiji had a much simpler system almost 2 decades ago, like this Indian system the coverage is very limited.
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kurtjeter
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:52 am

I've tried my best to keep up with the many threads, so please forgive if this is a repeat.
The captain's name seems to continue to come up as (one of the) likely suspects. But, apparently he was a last minute (last hour?) replacement? Wouldn't that work against his being the mastermind?
Also, if he was a late replacement, is anyoe aware of whether the originally scheduled pilot has been interviewed? Probably far-fetched, but if the disappearance was crew-initiated, maybe he backed out . . . . ?
Any comments would be appreciated.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:08 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 14):
No way will it be $2000 per aircraft, even just to get the paperwork on the aircraft would cost more than $2000, and that does not include the R&D, design, manufacture, test, and certification.

Certified devices are already available starting from $2000.
http://isp.justthe80.com/space-appli...tions/gagan#TOC-Aircraft-Equipment
http://raytheon.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2516

As of today GAGAN has communications coverage same as INMARSAT-3F1, but more satellites are being added to constellation. It is compatible with WAAS,EGNOS and MSAS.

http://www.gisresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/GAGAN_3-1024x605.jpg

Performance Based Navigation coverage is limited to Indian FIR.

http://gpsworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/GAGAN_service_coverage.jpg

Bottom line for INMARSAT each satellite costs $1.5 Billion where as similar capable satellite costs $100 Million-$150 Million for India and GoI bearing all infrastructure cost.

[Edited 2014-03-31 19:13:59]
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:35 am

Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 15):
The captain's name seems to continue to come up as (one of the) likely suspects. But, apparently he was a last minute (last hour?) replacement? Wouldn't that work against his being the mastermind?

I believe this is just one more aspect of this whole weird affair that the Malaysian authorities have, for whatever reason, declined to clarify.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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zeke
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:39 am

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 16):
Certified devices are already available starting from $2000.

And that would be like a panel mount GPS that is installed in a light aircraft, it does not include the installation or certification costs. RNP approaches have to be flown with a certified device installed in the aircraft.

To install RNP 0.1 on something like a 737 is a multi-million dollar exercise per aircraft, newer aircraft have most of the equipment already installed, however older aircraft need a lot of computers and equipment upgraded to get that sort of precision.

RNP 0.1 does not need augmentation at all, people have been flying RNP 0.1 approaches into Queenstown for years without any augmentation. Quovadis has RNP 0.1 approachs in Europe as well without augmentation.

You also stated above "unlike WAAS(USA), EGNOS(EU) and MSAS (Japan) every component in GAGAN is owned by GoI", which is not true either, as the GoI does not own the GPS satellites.

Datalink and ADS in India is crap, ask anyone who uses their airspace. It is on par with the HF, digital ATIS, and VOLMET services.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 16):
Bottom line for INMARSAT each satellite costs $1.5 Billion where as similar capable satellite costs $100 Million-$150 Million for India and GoI bearing all infrastructure cost.

Hogwash. INMARSAT is a global, multi function platform that is used by many land, sea, and airborne customers, it is not aviation specific. SITA runs the ACARS network, and they lease bandwidth from a number of satellite providers, both geostationary and low earth orbit. They also have a global terrestrial network. We are in the process of going away from geostationary links to low earth orbit to get global coverage.
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dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:09 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 18):
You also stated above "unlike WAAS(USA), EGNOS(EU) and MSAS (Japan) every component in GAGAN is owned by GoI", which is not true either, as the GoI does not own the GPS satellites.

Yes it does. See pic in Reply #10

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_...onal_Navigational_Satellite_System

Quoting zeke (Reply 18):
Datalink and ADS in India is crap, ask anyone who uses their airspace. It is on par with the HF, digital ATIS, and VOLMET services.

System is just certified in Feb 2014. So full roll out takes another 2-3 years. US/EU tested the capability and postponed roll-out because they are still dependent of INMARSAT. Cost is an issue for carriers.

Quoting zeke (Reply 18):
Hogwash. INMARSAT is a global, multi function platform that is used by many land, sea, and airborne customers, it is not aviation specific. SITA runs the ACARS network, and they lease bandwidth from a number of satellite providers, both geostationary and low earth orbit. They also have a global terrestrial network. We are in the process of going away from geostationary links to low earth orbit to get global coverage.

Who cares if it is a global system if carriers cannot afford. GAGAN eliminates the cost issue for Indian carriers. Few flights outside GAGAN coverage still can use INMARSAT.

GAGAN is not trying to compete with INMARSAT and SITA/ARINC in international market, it is just for Indian carriers.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:39 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 17):
I believe this is just one more aspect of this whole weird affair that the Malaysian authorities have, for whatever reason, declined to clarify.

Not only Malaysian authorities, mind you.

I don't blame them in the least for failing to clarify anything really, especially whilst there is so much BS floating around from so many sources.

And this just adds to it all    http://www.smh.com.au/world/flight-m...tish-newspaper-20140401-zqp95.html
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aftgaffe
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:39 am

Quoting CheezWhiz (Reply 13):
To me, it suggests a deliberate attempt to align the plane for a landing at Sultan Ismail Petra Airport.

It looks like it flew over the vicinity of Sultan Ismail Petra, which seems like potentially significant, I'll grant you. But the much simpler divert would have been Sultan Mahmud, which incidentally has a much longer runway. Those in the know, please correct me if you feel otherwise.

Runways:

http://aip.dca.gov.my/aip%20pdf/AD/A...tabharuSultan%20Ismail%20Petra.pdf

http://aip.dca.gov.my/aip%20pdf/AD/A...ngganuSultan%20Mahmud%20Airpor.pdf
 
mandala499
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:42 am

From Previous Thread:

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 284):
but if he could see the stars at least, might that help keep him oriented enough to turn the aircraft?

No, that's a big no-no.

There would be standby instruments... if that's not on, that plane wouldn't last for 6 hours.

If the standby instruments also went out... the SatCom would have been knocked out too and we won't have these pings.

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 296):
he might decide to take a screwdriver or whatever was handy and destroy the displays and user interfaces of all navigation equipment, including smashing the glass on the magnetic compass.

Crash Axe is there!
Ironically what you wrote is a script I have for an aviation comic   

---
Back to this thread.

Regarding:

Quoting flood (Reply 3):
Looks like we have a new map too, apparently shown to the families:

and:

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 6):
If the new map is accurate--with heavy emphasis on if--it appears consistent with turning off the airway and losing or gaining altitude to avoid traffic. But it hardly appears consistent with beelining towards the nearest (or perceived nearest) runway, a proposition that I believe was at the heart of most of the mechanical failure theories?

This map surfaced over the weekend.
My initial calculations is that for the aircraft to achieve this with the timeframe we have, they would at the lowest be at FL230. The true airspeed of the aircraft to achieve this and be over VAMPI the times observed, needs to be at 450 knots or higher.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 7):
Immarsat data has never before been used for this purpose. It is not a tracking device. I doubt very much if anyone, including Capt. Shah, anticipated the Immarsat "pings" being used as they have been.

Exactly. Pilots are only told how to use it.The manuals the pilots receive, have minimal content on the satcom itself.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 10):
GAGAN is not just navigational system. It is an end-to-end SBAS, ATM and Surveillance(ADS-B/C) system.

OK, if I remember correctly you started raising GAGAN based on me saying about 2-3 threads ago the costs of a new satellite system I was working on.
GAGAN, in comparison to what I was talking about, is a navigation system. It is there to provide SBAS. The name itself, is GPS Aided Geo-Augmented Navigation!!!!... let me emphasize... NAVIGATION.

Inmarsat, and the satellite system I was working on, are Mobile (Communications) Satellite Services & Systems. They are two very different ballgames. Hence the huge difference in costs.

GAGAN is about 3 - 3.5 tons per satellite... launch costs will be considerably cheaper than a 4.5 - 6 ton class satellite. Considerable, I mean, most launchers can carry 1 4.5-6 ton payloads to Geo-stationary orbit (which still require the satellite booster etc)... but can carry 2x 3ton payload class to Geo-stationary orbits with boosters (which are smaller too due to the smaller mass)... And can carry 4 of these to LEO and MEO if you want. Hence you have the huge difference in launch costs.

So...

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 16):
Bottom line for INMARSAT each satellite costs $1.5 Billion where as similar capable satellite costs $100 Million-$150 Million for India and GoI bearing all infrastructure cost.

THe capability is different because the mission is different.
Sorry, GAGAN will not be able to provide you with a voice-call service or a data communications service. Just like Inmarsat will not provide you with an RNP 0.1 SBAS. With SBAS, you still need the GPS.
GAGAN will not provide multimegabits of data to the mobile earth station like what I was doing.
GAGAN will not be able to provide airborne safety services communications (and maritime safety communications) like Inmarsat-3 and Inmarsat-4 (currently limited capability on the safety communications).

Bottom line is... Inmarsat each satellite cost God knows how much providing something completely different than GAGAN. I don't know why you are making the comparison here!

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 19):
Who cares if it is a global system if carriers cannot afford. GAGAN eliminates the cost issue for Indian carriers. Few flights outside GAGAN coverage still can use INMARSAT.

GAGAN is not trying to compete with INMARSAT and SITA/ARINC in international market, it is just for Indian carriers

It is not, it is not even competing with Inmarsat and SITA/ARINC in the Indian market.
Again, please understand the difference between navigation system satellites (GAGAN) and mobile communication satellites (Inmarsat). The latter, is a LOT more expensive.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:43 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 17):
Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 15):
The captain's name seems to continue to come up as (one of the) likely suspects. But, apparently he was a last minute (last hour?) replacement? Wouldn't that work against his being the mastermind?

I believe this is just one more aspect of this whole weird affair that the Malaysian authorities have, for whatever reason, declined to clarify.

While I would tend to agree with the view that since he was a last-minute replacement he is probably not guilty of anything, I feel compelled to play devil's advocate.

If we assume he hijacked the plane for the purposes of flying out over the ocean and crashing, the particular flight would have no significance. So being a last-minute replacement might not be relevant.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:52 am

Recovering EACH aircraft position at ping time from RTD and Doppler

If the information in thread 48 by MarkAK and commented by Mandala in thread 48 can be confirmed, possibly by the manufacturer of the satcom on MH370, then we can calculate the approximate position of MH370 at ping time.

Apparently the airborne satcom calculates the aircraft contribution to Doppler using data coming from the Inertial Reference System (IRS) over the ARINC 429 bus and from tables giving the nominal position of the satellite in use (3F1). The computed frequency offset is used first to help demodulate the incoming packet and then to pre-compensate the outgoing RF response.

The purpose is to cause all packets arriving at the satellite from different mobiles to be centered on their assigned frequency channel, thus avoiding adjacent channel interference (typical for FDMA).

That strategy works fine provided the satellite is not in an inclined orbit. If it is, and since the aircraft modem is unlikely to have access to the current satellite speed vector, the satellite Doppler is not compensated for by the aircraft..

As a matter of fact, I would have expected that the airborne satcom would have measured the incoming Doppler and used that value to pre-compensate the outgoing RF transmission. But if that had been done on MH370, Inmarsat would only have RTD to work with and essentially no Doppler.

It is therefore critical to ascertain what the satcom modem on MH370 did. If indeed it was fully pre-compensating for the aircraft motion using the aircraft speed vector (in 3D in case the aircraft was climbing/descending) at ping time, then we can get the aircraft location on its RTD ring at that time.

What the earth station will measure is the satellite Doppler vector projected onto the satellite to aircraft vector. The measured Doppler scalar value compared to the Doppler expected from the instantaneous speed of the satellite yields the angle between satellite speed vector and satellite to aircraft vector. That angle is the half angle of a cone whose axis is the satellite speed vector. That cone should mostly intersect the southern portion of the ring in one point unless the speed vector of the satellite happens to almost point to the aircraft. In that case we shall unfortunately have two intersections. But by looking at successive calculated locations, we should be able to eliminate one of the two intersections if any ever occurred during the construction process.

With this method, we do not need to pick a speed and trajectory class a priori. We simply build the estimated position ellipse for each ping using margin of errors for RTD and Doppler. Only afterwards can we try to guess what the aircraft intended to do along that track.

I assume that the above algorithm was used to arrive at the new track and updated search area. However, I have not yet been able to find a reference to it.
 
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zeke
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:55 am

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 19):
Yes it does. See pic in Reply #10

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_...ystem

Look at the diagram in your reply 10, in GAGAN the aircraft position is obtained from the L1/L2 bands of the US DOD GPS system. It is clearly labeled as GPS, not IRNSS. The local Indian system is using L5 & S band, to get a fix in space you need a minimum of 4 satellites, and 5 to get redundancy.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 19):
System is just certified in Feb 2014. So full roll out takes another 2-3 years. US/EU tested the capability and postponed roll-out because they are still dependent of INMARSAT. Cost is an issue for carriers.

RNP 0.1 services used by airliners in the EU and US do not require a space based transponder, RNP 0.1 only needs GPS and suitable onboard equipment. That is why airliners can fly RNP 0.1 in areas where there is no satellite transponder (e.g. Australia, New Zealand, Asia, Seychelles).

ADS over most land masses does not rely on satellite links, they have a terrestrial networks.



Iridium is current launching LEO satellites with 1090ES transponders on each satellite, like what is currently found on terrestrial networks. This should give global coverage by the end of the decade without needing directional antennas on aircraft pointing at geostationary satellites, they will use the existing standard transponder antennas that send data to terrestrial networks.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
jcxroberts
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:17 am

INMARSAT is obviously not very accurate at all or they would have found debris by now. The SAR is covering significant territory as can be seen by the maps.
 
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seahawk
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:02 am

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 26):
INMARSAT is obviously not very accurate at all or they would have found debris by now. The SAR is covering significant territory as can be seen by the maps.

First of all there is a lot of garbage floating in the oceans, so it is hard to differentiate that from debris and we should also consider the possibly that the aircraft did not crash into the ocean, but was watered professionally, which would, even if destroying the plane, reduce the debris considerably.
 
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Dalavia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:24 am

Before the INMARSAT satellite analysis came in, I felt that on balance the northern arc was a more likely scenario than the southern.

I was convinced by the satellite analysis on the basis of my broad understanding (though not the mathematical details) of the data. I still think the southern route is more likely, but this inclination is based solely on the INMARSAT data. However, the fact that no debris has yet been detected by satellite or aerial observation means that the southern routing has not yet been established as a certainty in my view, in the same way that lack of evidence is yet to eliminate several scenarios and motives.

(Disclaimer: I do not support the scenario I am about to post, but I need to post this to ask my question at the end...)

About four hours ago, Flying With Fish retweeted a revised scenario that might add credence to the northern route, as follows:

Per radar plot, at 02:22 (18:22 UTC), MH370 location coincided with UAE343 on N571 route, not SIA68 on P628 route.
http://pic.twitter.com/is0QzJCWJH

Therefore, MH370 path shown here would fit perfectly in time and location with radar plot.
http://pic.twitter.com/rcCp0bhaCF

UAE343 to Dubai flight path shown here. Flight typically arrives approx. 00:10 UTC.
http://pic.twitter.com/xJy7aU9bSw

Assuming diversion at waypoint PARAR, path goes over Chah Bahar (Konarak).. no hangars there. Bandar Abbas, however..
http://pic.twitter.com/qwSkJEg9WY
http://twitpic.com/dzyvhl

So my questions are these:
a. Is the northern route still a possibility, and if so could EK343 have been the aircraft shadowed?
b. If this scenario did not happen and MH370 passed VAMPI at the same time as EK343, heading off towards west in preparation to turn southwards, would you expect the crew of EK343 to have seen any evidence of a 'dark' MH370?

[Edited 2014-03-31 23:26:35]

[Edited 2014-03-31 23:29:05]
 
CheezWhiz
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:30 am

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 21):
It looks like it flew over the vicinity of Sultan Ismail Petra, which seems like potentially significant, I'll grant you. But the much simpler divert would have been Sultan Mahmud, which incidentally has a much longer runway. Those in the know, please correct me if you feel otherwise.

Runways:

http://aip.dca.gov.my/aip%20pdf/AD/A...tabharuSultan%20Ismail%20Petra.pdf

http://aip.dca.gov.my/aip%20pdf/AD/A...ngganuSultan%20Mahmud%20Airpor.pdf

I agree. Sultan Mahmud would seem to be the better choice, if a choice was available.

From your sources above:
Sultan Ismail Petra runway dimensions: 1981m x 45m
Sultan Mahmud runway dimensions: 3480m x 45m

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com...ercial/airports/acaps/7772sec3.pdf

My interpretation of Boeings runway specs:
A 777-200, fully loaded (460,000lbs.), at sea level, needs a runway length of approx. 5250ft (1600m) dry or 6000ft (1829m) wet.

It'd be my guess that either airport would be ok in an emergency. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:31 am

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 28):
About four hours ago, Flying With Fish retweeted a revised scenario that might add credence to the northern route, as follows:

Flying With Fish is an internet troll using information in public domain to make his claims.

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 28):
So my questions are these:a. Is the northern route still a possibility, and if so could EK343 have been the aircraft shadowed?

No. Satellite Doppler shift has been analyzed by INMARSAT and peer reviewed by the AAIB and most likely also by the NTSB. It is quite clear even for an untrained eye that the MH370 Doppler shift matches the southern track prediction and fails to match the northern track prediction.
 
Skydrol
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:55 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 27):
we should also consider the possibly that the aircraft did not crash into the ocean, but was watered professionally, which would, even if destroying the plane, reduce the debris considerably.

This is a very interesting point... *if* the airplane made a gentle water landing (I like the term 'watered professionally' which Seahawk used), similar to the Hudson River landing Captain Sully performed, there really wouldn't be any debris to look for at all, and the airplane would have sunk as a complete unit.
Is this even possible? Does anyone know what the sea conditions were like in the expected 'crash zone' at the time?


Another incredible event has occurred: Thirty posts into part 49 of the thread, and 'nupogodi' has not posted yet!  




LD4
∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:57 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 12):
Miles O'Brien has drawn his: "Malaysian authorities showed this image to families of #MH370. If true, it's a blockbuster. Proves intentional act" (from his tweet).

BREAKING NEWS -- airplane seems to have been piloted deliberately!

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 24):
What the earth station will measure is the satellite Doppler vector

No such thing. The Doppler shift arises from the relative motion of the satellite and aircraft. For a geosynchronous satellite with zero inclination and an aircraft at rest (e.g. on the ground) the Doppler shift is zero, which contradicts what you described.
 
rj777
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:02 am

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 31):
Is this even possible?

It would be possible, but given the 777's size.... very improbable.... cause unlike the LOT 767 belly landing, a water landing in the Indian Ocean wouldn't provide a permanently flat surface.... the water's surface is fluid and constantly changing. The Hudson splashdown was made with a much smaller aircraft and they were extremely lucky that they were able to pull that off.
 
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seahawk
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:10 am

Quoting rj777 (Reply 33):
It would be possible, but given the 777's size.... very improbable.... cause unlike the LOT 767 belly landing, a water landing in the Indian Ocean wouldn't provide a permanently flat surface.... the water's surface is fluid and constantly changing. The Hudson splashdown was made with a much smaller aircraft and they were extremely lucky that they were able to pull that off.

I was thinking more along the lines of ET961. Larger debris would sink faster and would probably contain more of the typical floating light stuff inside the wreckage.

If we think it was a deliberate act, I am certain he would also have made sure that fuel tank valves and such would be open, so that the plane would sink.

[Edited 2014-04-01 00:12:46]
 
CBRboy
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:21 am

Quoting rj777 (Reply 33):
The Hudson splashdown was made with a much smaller aircraft and they were extremely lucky that they were able to pull that off.

On a river rather than in the open ocean.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:29 am

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 31):
Quoting seahawk (Reply 27):
we should also consider the possibly that the aircraft did not crash into the ocean, but was watered professionally, which would, even if destroying the plane, reduce the debris considerably.

This is a very interesting point... *if* the airplane made a gentle water landing (I like the term 'watered professionally' which Seahawk used), similar to the Hudson River landing Captain Sully performed, there really wouldn't be any debris to look for at all, and the airplane would have sunk as a complete unit.
Is this even possible? Does anyone know what the sea conditions were like in the expected 'crash zone' at the time?

To expand on seahawk and rj777s posts, even if the ditching is unsuccessful from a survivability point of view, a controlled approach and an attempt at a controlled touchdown would decrease the debris field very significantly.

Best case you have "Miracle on the Hudson", but even if things go badly you might still end up with something like Asiana at SFO. A very small debris field in which most of the aircraft is in very large pieces that then sink. Smaller pieces that float are few and far between, and will likely sink given a few days, plus they'll drift far and wide.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
majush
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:06 am

Hi All,
I have been an unpaid member/lurker for a few years and decided to get onboard to post a single doubt that have been going in my head since day1 and one ridiculous theory based on pure speculation. Many of my confusions have been resolved over the period of time (mostly about lost contact after 2 hrs and related stuff from /Msian Govt) but one still remains. I have absolutely no knowledge of Aircraft's beyond the basics I have learned from watching Mayday series and i am still terrified of flying. So please be a bit kind in your comments.

Doubt: Timeline of events. Vietnamese authorities says they got Narita bound MH to contact MH370 at 1:30 am. Was this suppose to be Vietnam time 1:30 am (which is +7 means 2:30am Msian time coz Msia is on +8) or has it always been Msian Time 1:30 am? I have been searching around for the past few weeks without much of a resolution.

I have had multiple issues with the existing suicide/terrorism/sabotage theories. While terrorism/hijack that leads to a suicide idea fits the details to some extend, the motive behind flying for 7 hrs into the middle of nowhere in Indian ocean seems questionable(that's if inmersat got their calculations right and the aircraft is not sitting on some tarmac in some country in the North).
if suicide by pilots, why bother turning around? Why use navigational waypoints? Why take 238 others with him? Why try to avoid radar and kill the transponder? Just because of marital problems? That sounds a bit silly to me. And how did one of the pilots got the other pilot out of the cockpit so he could conveniently do whatever he please? Or did they both decided to kill themselves together? It some how doesnt makes much of sense since its relatively difficult to get one pilot off the cockpit without arising suspicion. Also, I have read that when one pilot takes a restroom break or leaves the cockpit, a cabin crew must be present inside the cockpit and the remaining pilot is to put on the belts and mask. Doesn't it make the suicide part a bit difficult?

The very simple theory from Goodfellow seems plausible for a brief while except that the Pilots should have willfully ignored every rule on the book on how to deal with fire; like trying to put out the fire without wearing a mask and cutting off all radio communications. And an aircraft on fire flew for 7 hrs after making major altitude and course changes. Then there was TGG airport with a 11000 ft runway at half the distance from where it was to LGK.

Which brings me to the second major reason for posting here.
My second reason to post is a wild speculation that doesnt quite leave my head ever since it hit me during a flight 4 days ago. I know its gonna sound ridiculous and I apologize for that in advance. I myself dont think its possible but I figured its best I share it so I can get some expert insight into the hypothetical scenario.

Flight took off as usual. We have an experienced captain(Whom Media portray as an Atheist) who is probably a tad bit under the recent political drama of opposition leader being ordered by the court to get back in prison for the sodomy charges(I read this news that evening before I took MI/SQ on COK-SIN-SGN and I myself spend a few hours thinking about this news inflight) and a Co-Pilot who is portrayed by media to be religious. After the flight takes off the Captain and the co pilot start casual chats and chances are high that the conversation could have brought up the Sodomy charges. Hereafter my speculation is based on questions and doubts if something of this nature could have happened.

I wonder what could have been the chances that both Pilots disagreed on the Sodomy charges and courts decisions? If there was a disagreement, could it have elevated into a heated argument between the pilots due to the religious background of one and the Atheist ideas of another?? Could it have lead to some form of hostility that might have gone out of control even for a fraction of a second? If something of that nature occurred and accidentally or in a fit of rage incapacitated the Captain(or the co-pilot), the chain of events that followed kinda makes a tad bit of sense from a psychological perspective.

I am not even sure if Pilots can reach each other from their seats. So pardon me If this is beyond stupid. But suppose if something of this nature did happened against all odds, and after a few seconds later when the co-pilot(or the captain) regained his composure, he might have realized he did something really stupid and unacceptable and could have panicked.

In the first moments of panic, he could have pulled the transponder till he figure out what to do next. Then he could have decided to turn back to Malaysia and could have set a course back. Then within few mts his brain could have brought in the potential consequences that would be laid in front of him if he lands and might have pushed the altitude up to F450 with an intent to kill or incapacitate the crew and passengers who might have overheard the argument from the cockpit. He overshot Msia while coming up with what to do next or waiting for CVR to start the hourly cycle(I hope I am not wrong in my understanding that CVR overwrites the contents of the tape every hour) and realizes what he has done is beyond repair and decide to go on a suicide course and thus ending up in Indian Ocean.

Please do note that I do not intend to vilify the Co-Pilot or the Captain. For all we know, they could have been regular normal people. This is only a theory based on pure speculation without any intent to portray anyone in any bad light. All I want to know is the probability of something of this nature happening within the cockpit.

For that I guess the other members who have served in a cockpit or as a crew can shed some light on how bad it can get if an argument broke off inside a cockpit. Has it ever happened before?

Thanks everyone for your response. I appreciate some insight into the plausibility factor.

[Edited 2014-04-01 03:12:24]
 
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InsideMan
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:33 am

Quoting majush (Reply 37):
I have absolutely no knowledge of Aircraft's beyond the basics I have learned from watching Mayday series and i am still terrified of flying.


You should look for other means of entertainment.....  
Not because Mayday is bad, but I wouldn't exactly recommend it to someone afraid of flying in the first place.
Remember, statistically you need to fly 25000 years continuously to be in an Aircraft crash, or so I heard.....
 
majush
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:45 am

I did a back to back Mayday series over couple of weeks and then took a flight from CGK to KUL to see how my brain reacts to it. It was more than terrifying. Wasn't quite meant to be entertaining. I was hoping to get over my fears. I later figured wine works better.  
 
art
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:50 am

Sorry if this has been asked in the last 10,000 posts. When a transponder is switched off, does the blip on the ATC radar screen disappear or just the display of the flight number, altitude etc?

Quoting majush (Reply 37):
For that I guess the other members who have served in a cockpit or as a crew can shed some light on how bad it can get if an argument broke off inside a cockpit. Has it ever happened before?

Welcome aboard.

IIRC a BA Trident ex-LHR where the captain was opposed to industrial action that was supported by the co-pilot crashed soon after takeoff. The slats were retracted prematurely and the aircraft crashed. Without checking I recall it being reported that the captain's flying capabilities were believed to have been impaired due to stress (leading to heart attack?).

While not a parallel to whatever happened on MH370, the Trident crash does show that disputes between the pilots can compromise safety by impairing crew performance. It is not inconceivable that there was a dispute between the pilots on MH370 that resulted in one incapacitating the other.

[Edited 2014-04-01 03:51:54]
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:58 am

Quoting majush (Reply 37):
If something of that nature occurred and accidentally or in a fit of rage incapacitated the Captain(or the co-pilot), the chain of events that followed kinda makes a tad bit of sense from a psychological perspective.

If the CVR/FDR or the wreckage is never found, we cannot be sure what happended. However, to me it seems that whoever took the action had planned the course of action well in advance and didn't act out of sudden impulse.
 
mandala499
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:59 am

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 28):
About four hours ago, Flying With Fish retweeted a revised scenario that might add credence to the northern route, as follows:

He's actually pretty late on this one...
We figured out EK343 is the more likely candidate than SQ68 a while ago...

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 30):
Flying With Fish is an internet troll using information in public domain to make his claims.

LOL!
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:03 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 22):
Sorry, GAGAN will not be able to provide you with a voice-call service or a data communications service. Just like Inmarsat will not provide you with an RNP 0.1 SBAS. With SBAS, you still need the GPS.
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 22):
Inmarsat, and the satellite system I was working on, are Mobile (Communications) Satellite Services & Systems. They are two very different ballgames. Hence the huge difference in costs.
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 22):
It is not, it is not even competing with Inmarsat and SITA/ARINC in the Indian market.


Right now the focus is on PBN but it is a PBN and Surveillance(ABS-B/C) system. It is also an entirely satellite based system so SITA/ARINC's ground stations are not necessary.

GSAT is fully voice and data communication satellite constellation. As of last year Indian Navy no longer depends on INMARSAT, it uses GSAT-7, another communications satellite for defense use.
 
majush
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:18 am

Thanks Art.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 41):

If it was a deliberately planned set of events, how could one pilot could have gotten the other one out of the cockpit without arising suspicion and without having a crew member standby inside the cockpit?(do they actually do this or am i been misinformed by the media) If he based his deliberate plans based on sending the other pilot off the cockpit, timing could have been a bit of a trouble isn't it?
 
LandSweetLand
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:22 am

Quoting majush (Reply 44):
If it was a deliberately planned set of events, how could one pilot could have gotten the other one out of the cockpit

Would he need to though? If he "took him out" some how, then no one would be any the wiser. Alternatively, spilling a drink on him could get him out I guess.
 
sipadan
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:24 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 22):
Exactly. Pilots are only told how to use it.The manuals the pilots receive, have minimal content on the satcom itself.

This makes no sense. You seem to suggest here that a human being is an automaton and incapable of thinking and researching for himself/herself. I think it safe to assume that if Captain Shah knew about the INMARSAT pings, he would also realized that they would be mined extensively and extrapolated from.
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:25 am

Here is the transcript according to a Finnish news site:

12:40:38 ATC: 370 32 Right cleared for take-off. Good night.
MAS 370: 32 Right Cleared for take-off MAS370. Thank you Bye.

LUMPUR APPROACH
12:42:05 MAS 370: Departure Malaysian Three Seven Zero
12:42:10 ATC: Malaysian Three Seven Zero selamat pagi identified. Climb flight level one eight zero cancel SID turn right direct to IGARI
12:42:48 MAS 370: Okay level one eight zero direct IGARI Malaysian one err Three Seven Zero
12:42:52 ATC: Malaysian Three Seven Zero contact Lumpur Radar One Three Two Six good night
MAS 370: Night One Three Two Six Malaysian Three Seven Zero

LUMPUR RADAR (AREA)
12:46:51 MAS 370: Lumpur Control Malaysian Three Seven Zero
12:46:51 ATC: Malaysian Three Seven Zero Lumpur Radar Good Morning climb flight level two five zero
12:46:54 MAS 370: Morning level two five zero Malaysian Three Seven Zero
12:50:06 ATC: Malaysian Three Seven Zero climb flight level three five zero
12:50:09 MAS 370: Flight level three five zero Malaysian Three Seven Zero
01:01:14 MAS 370: Malaysian Three Seven Zero maintaining level three five zero
01:01:19 ATC: Malaysian Three Seven Zero
01:07:55 MAS 370: Malaysian... Three Seven zero maintaining level three five zero
01:08:00 ATC: Malaysian Three Seven Zero
01:19:24 ATC: Malaysian Three Seven Zero contact Ho Chi Minh 120 decimal 9 Good Night
01:19:29 MAS 370: Good Night Malaysian Three Seven Zero

And the full transcipt is available here...
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/04/01/transcript.pdf


[Edited 2014-04-01 04:45:08]

[Edited 2014-04-01 04:55:17]
 
na
Posts: 9711
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:36 am

I wonder how the investigation is going on into a possible pilot suicide. Nothing has been heard since a week about that. I hope that the authorities have surveyed all the private data, papers and all incurances and has questioned every family member and every friend or foe of the two in the cockpit.

While the known time line and flight path does fit best to a suicide theory, one thing irritates me. Why did the plane fly back over Malaysia? Wouldnt it have been more logical to just turn slightly to the right, NE over the sea between the Philippines and Vietnam and then into the open Pacific? Perhaps he did see more chances to be detected on that route: Or perhaps he knew the Malaysian military radar observers would be sleeping or otherwise "occupied" (interpreting the non-reaction of the military there is no other explanation that they didnt do what they were supposed to do that night).

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 41):
If the CVR/FDR or the wreckage is never found, we cannot be sure what happended. However, to me it seems that whoever took the action had planned the course of action well in advance and didn't act out of sudden impulse.

If there was an intention to fly into the open Ocean then is there any possibility other than one of the pilots being involved? One scenario I can see is that a third (and deranged) person with thorough knowledge about flying a 777 was on board. But that is very, very unlikely as such person would be identified by now for sure even by a very bad police detective. The other, again very unlikely scenario is of course kidnapping by a suicidal non-pilot. But would a pilot follow orders to fly into a direction he knew he would never survive it? And would such person not have been identified by now?
 
majush
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:40 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49

Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:38 am

Quoting LandSweetLand (Reply 45):

Spilling a drink could really do it. But doesnt that bring in a cabin crew to standby inside the cockpit? Also why turn around? why try to fly far deep into the the middle of nowhere after going through navigational waypoints? why not just fly through? A motive to go into the middle of nowhere bothers me some how. What sort of a state of mind would bring in such an idea?
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