Cathay Pacific To Announce ZRH, BOS & MAN

B742 · Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:49 pm

According to this report and Aspire Aviation, CX to announce Manchester, Boston and Zurich into their network in the winter schedules.

No official announcement from CX as of yet however.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...8/cathay-pacific-expands-in-europe

http://www.aspireaviation.com/2014/0...1/cathay-pacific-in-for-long-haul/

[edit to add: BOS]

[Edited 2014-04-01 08:52:58]

commavia · Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:37 pm

Read that article, too - found those quite interesting, especially BOS. MAN makes sense given the longstanding commercial connections between HKG and UK, and I believe Cathay used to fly to ZRH years ago. BOS stands out to me, though - definitely pretty impressive if it happens, considering BOS had zero nonstop flights to Asia just a few years ago. I think this just goes to underscore yet again the power of a strong hub - which HKG definitely is. With geographic, demographic and economic fundamentals as positive as they are in HKG and the broader Pearl River Delta it serves, it's not much of a surprise that Cathay and its HKG hub continue to grow.

GT4EZY · Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:53 pm

MAN was also served by CX for quite a while until around 2000/2001.

Cipango · Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:57 pm

Quoting B742 (Thread starter):
According to this report and Aspire Aviation, CX to announce Manchester, Boston and Zurich into their network in the winter schedules.

Very good news! MAN had been long rumoured and was initially supposed to be a tag-on from DME and operate HKG-DME-MAN. CX announced DME, but unfortunately not MAN.

musapapaya · Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:17 pm

Until there is a press release on their website, i would hold my breath, all these destinations have been rumoured before.

Miami · Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:21 pm

April Fools is a day I will never trust. Until April 2nd...

jetblue1965 · Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:22 pm

I wonder if CX would consider code-sharing with B6 at BOS, or just stay with AA/US

ZRH was such a long-standing gaping hole I was surprised how long it took CX to realize the missed opportunities

thomasphoto60 · Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:25 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 5):
April Fools is a day I will never trust. Until April 2nd...

Ditto, any new route announcements, new equipment, mergers ect... will be suspect (in my mind), until April 2nd.

crAAzy · Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:43 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 5):
April Fools is a day I will never trust. Until April 2nd...

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 7):

Ditto, any new route announcements, new equipment, mergers ect... will be suspect (in my mind), until April 2nd.

If you read the articles that are linked to the post, I don't see how anyone would believe this is an actual April Fools Day joke. Too much detail and insight into Cathay's operational numbers, yields, and finances.

usairways85 · Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:50 pm

I have to wonder if/when all of BOS' new Asian service will start to cannibalize on itself or the existing European service. JL, QR, TK, HU, EK, and now possibly CX. I know there is likely a decent market in BOS but that is a ton of capacity with just B6 feed

gkirk · Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:07 pm

MAN-HKG is a very significant unserved market, with many people being lost to the services from LHR.

CaliAtenza · Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:08 pm

CX could do very well from Boston; i know there is a large south Indian community in Boston and they could pick up the traffic headed towards Hyderabad and Bangalore.

jetblue1965 · Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:23 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 11):
CX could do very well from Boston; i know there is a large south Indian community in Boston and they could pick up the traffic headed towards Hyderabad and Bangalore.

BOS-HYD is also 2200+ mi longer via HKG than via LHR.

musapapaya · Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:25 pm

Quoting gkirk (Reply 10):
MAN-HKG is a very significant unserved market, with many people being lost to the services from LHR.

I know but I always go through (personal choice) ZRH with LX and benefit from their 55 minute connection, and a bit of Swiss-ness on those flights! Not that I dont want to see a direct MAN-HKG though.... I have a feeling there will be loads of passengers but how will the yields be?

usairways85 · Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:26 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 11):
CX could do very well from Boston; i know there is a large south Indian community in Boston and they could pick up the traffic headed towards Hyderabad and Bangalore.

As can BA, LH, QR, TK, EK, etc.
And going US>west through Asia to India is not typically the way most people go....

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 12):
BOS-HYD is also 2200+ mi longer via HKG than via LHR.

flyby519 · Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:30 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 9):

I have to wonder if/when all of BOS' new Asian service will start to cannibalize on itself or the existing European service. JL, QR, TK, HU, EK, and now possibly CX. I know there is likely a decent market in BOS but that is a ton of capacity with just B6 feed

At some point BOS will become a more attractive connect point compared to JFK/EWR due to less congestion, lower prices, easier transfers, etc. There should be room to grow.

ASA · Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:32 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 11):
CX could do very well from Boston; i know there is a large south Indian community in Boston and they could pick up the traffic headed towards Hyderabad and Bangalore.

Indeed - but won't they now be served better with EK? Emirates has connections to 10 cities in India (including a number of second tier cities) ... unparalleled connection from Boston, IMHO.

Meanwhile, CX already flies 4x daily to JFK ... and then just a few hours to BOS (car/air/rail) ... how high is BOS-HKG traffic that it warrants a new ULH frequency?

YouGeeElWhy · Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:41 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 6):
April Fools is a day I will never trust. Until April 2nd...

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 8):
Ditto, any new route announcements, new equipment, mergers ect... will be suspect (in my mind), until April 2nd.

It's already April 2nd in HKG

.

usairways85 · Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:46 pm

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 15):
At some point BOS will become a more attractive connect point compared to JFK/EWR due to less congestion, lower prices, easier transfers, etc. There should be room to grow.

With B6 and a lesser extent AA/DL as the carrier bringing paxs in. And while B6 has codeshares and interline agreements they do not benefit from being a full fledge member of an alliance.

adamh8297 · Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:48 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 9):

I have to wonder if/when all of BOS' new Asian service will start to cannibalize on itself or the existing European service. JL, QR, TK, HU, EK, and now possibly CX. I know there is likely a decent market in BOS but that is a ton of capacity with just B6 feed

No QR or KE yet. They would be the one's who start the cannibalization. TK and EK can coexist due to different strengths.

TK -better for Levant, Eastern Europe (balkans, ukraine bulgaria) , Central, Asia, Africa, + B6 oneway codeshare

EK- Indian Subcontinent + Mid East (though you overfly it), Africa B6 full Codeshare

JL and HU easily co-exist and you could make the case CX could join the party though the A359 would be the better plane.

JL is primarily BOS-Japan traffic with some, Korean traffic and B6/AA/US feed, JL even cut the SIN red eye.

HU will be primarily BOS-PEK O+D - can connect well with SHA as well. Rumor is they are linking up with B6 as well
PEK may wind up being a top 10 market for international destinations from BOS real soon.

CX - Decent sized but not huge HKG-BOS market, SE Asia, Southern China + PVG. B6/AA/US feed.

flyby519 · Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:00 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 18):
With B6 and a lesser extent AA/DL as the carrier bringing paxs in. And while B6 has codeshares and interline agreements they do not benefit from being a full fledge member of an alliance.

Yes, but I was thinking B6 could benefit since they are un-aligned and can provide feed for any carrier. As opposed to being restricted to one alliance. What would alliance membership offer in BOS that they can't do already?

jetblue1965 · Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:37 pm

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 20):
What would alliance membership offer in BOS that they can't do already?

A piece of the alliance-loyal pie.

There are scores of HVF that value their alliance benefits, status, and miles, and would go out of their way to stay loyal within the alliance.

jetblue's Mint service is a great step towards competing for HVF dollars.

SurfandSnow · Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:43 pm

ZRH makes perfect sense - linking together two major international financial centers and global trade hubs (never mind the tourist appeal of Hong Kong and Switzerland, respectively). I should think the O&D would be quite lucrative on the HKG-ZRH route.

BOS is very interesting. In terms of new CX U.S. markets, I would have expected the likes of IAD, IAH, SEA, or HNL* to come before BOS. Then again, maybe I'm thinking too much about lower-yielding Southeast Asian VFR traffic and too little about higher-yielding business traffic. CX does have a partnership with B6, and oneworld alliance codeshare partner AA is now much stronger in BOS with the US merger. Will be interesting to see if this happens.

*If Hong Kong enters the Visa Waiver Program, allowing Hong Kong passport holders visa free (hassle free) travel to the U.S.

MAN seems the least likely to me, even though it was served until relatively recently and has been rumored to make a comeback. MAN would offer virtually no onward connectivity, and Manchester is not really a major international business or tourist destination. Moreover, MAN does not seem to be able to support any kind of nonstop service to the Far East - as such, an intermediate stop would probably be necessary. SQ seems to manage this, but I have to think other European markets would be much more lucrative - BCN, IST, MAD (gateway to Latin America), etc.

musapapaya · Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:48 pm

Has MAN ever started? The rumour was a one-stop via DME but did it not get pulled the last minute before it launched?

PhilInBRN · Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:59 pm

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 22):

ZRH makes perfect sense - linking together two major international financial centers and global trade hubs (never mind the tourist appeal of Hong Kong and Switzerland, respectively). I should think the O&D would be quite lucrative on the HKG-ZRH route.

ZRH as a premium market has above average yield potential for CX. They should be able to compete well with the daily LX A343. I expect CX to offer a noon departure from ZRH distinguishing itself from LX's 22:45 departure. ZRH should also do well in terms of cargo revenue (e.g. pharmaceuticals). I wonder if CX will be able to get some feed to ZRH on other OW carriers (AB, IB).

by738 · Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:05 pm

Yes not convinced of a start at MAN and if so its longevity. The eastbound connection market is starting to become rather saturated.

David_itl · Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:20 pm

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 22):
MAN would offer virtually no onward connectivity, and Manchester is not really a major international business or tourist destination

Some 140,000 passengers per year at the moment routing via various gateways for MAN HKG. Could stimulate more demand as well. Throw an around 200,000 passengers per year MAN China (per the Air China UK + Ireland general manager) and all of a sudden there's 340,000 passengers for them to tap into.

factsonly · Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:26 pm

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 23):
Has MAN ever started?

Cathay operated B744s on HKG-AMS-MAN v.v. for years.

Luftymatt · Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:29 pm

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 22):
Moreover, MAN does not seem to be able to support any kind of nonstop service to the Far East

Manchester and North West England has a large Chinese Cantonese speaking population, not to mention the overall links from the UK to Hong Kong must not be underestimated. The majority of connection passengers with LX, LH, AF and KL out of MAN are going onwards to either Hong Kong or mainland China.

rutankrd · Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:34 pm

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 23):

Has MAN ever started? The rumour was a one-stop via DME but did it not get pulled the last minute before it launched?

Manchester has had services to Hong Kong by both Cathay Pacific via various European Cities including Paris and Amsterdam and by British Airways in the past.

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 22):
MAN seems the least likely to me, even though it was served until relatively recently and has been rumored to make a comeback. MAN would offer virtually no onward connectivity, and Manchester is not really a major international business or tourist destination

You really don't know the Manchester market do you?
Firstly to connectivity is on the Hong Kong end -Currently Manchester- Hong Kong market is something around 140,000 ( many going on to the mainland} plus more than 127,000 annual boardings to mainland China going via third points.

Those are higher figures than Boston to Kong Kong and similar to mainland China .

Its not a small market.

Cathay have stated on numerous occasions Manchester remains in their future plans.

I might argue that England's central and third largest Metropolis is not a major business centre - It manages more US departures than many European Capitals and is one of only a few airports with multiple daily service by the ME3.

Within commute is one of Europe's major chemical manufacturing centres, Pharmaceuticals and Media as well as World class sporting venues.

Within driving and direct rail travel distance are a host of UK Tourist spots including York, Chester, the Lake District and Scotland and Manchester itself is the fourth largest UK inbound Tourist Centre.

Additionally the City has a very large World Class University.

As to the one point that Manchester offers no onward connectivity again through interline agreements Manchester connects to more UK domestic points than any other UK including London Airport.

Finally The North West of England hosts two of the worlds largest expat Cantonese communities (Only Vancouver and California come close)

David_itl · Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:34 pm

CX's original offering was MAN-FRA-HKG which started back in 1989. Also routed via AMS, CDG and ZRH at various times, with at it's peak operating daily with 145,000 passengers according to the CAA statistics in the mid 1990s. To determine that the reasons why it ended over a decade ago should preclude the route ever restarting is strange, given the greater prosperity around the MAN catchment area now.

NZ107 · Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:50 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 12):
BOS-HYD is also 2200+ mi longer via HKG than via LHR.

Doesn't make too much of a difference.. EK still sometimes offer cheaper fares for HKG-DXB-LAX than what's usually sold on CX nonstop HKG-LAX flights. I would assume price sensitive people would go for that option.

It really surprised me that ZRH hadn't been a CX port for years. It'd be good to see them back there.

rutankrd · Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:05 pm

Quoting david_itl (Reply 30):

CX's original offering was MAN-FRA-HKG which started back in 1989. Also routed via AMS, CDG and ZRH at various times, with at it's peak operating daily with 145,000 passengers according to the CAA statistics in the mid 1990s. To determine that the reasons why it ended over a decade ago should preclude the route ever restarting is strange, given the greater prosperity around the MAN catchment area now.

Both Manchester and Zurich were canned during the airline re-organisation and cost saving drive from the summer 2002 schedules and after the 2001 industrial disputes that closed the airline down for some weeks.

jetblue1965 · Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:21 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 31):
Doesn't make too much of a difference.. EK still sometimes offer cheaper fares for HKG-DXB-LAX than what's usually sold on CX nonstop HKG-LAX flights. I would assume price sensitive people would go for that option.

30% longer "doesn't make too much difference" ? CX doesn't have the cost structure to chase price-sensitive pax willing to do long detours. Their 3-3-3 config on 77W certainly doesn't help.

behramjee · Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:41 pm

Quoting gkirk (Reply 10):
MAN-HKG is a very significant unserved market, with many people being lost to the services from LHR.

yes very true, as over 300 passengers on a daily basis currently fly between MAN and HKG one stop via XYZ airports in EU/Middle East. Starting MAN-HKG initially with 4 weekly nonstop then gradually increasing to 5 then daily is the right move.

ZRH is a no brainer in terms of yield potential and they should get good volume too bound to BKK, MNL, TPE, SGN, Australia and China.

As far as BOS is concerned, I would have preferred IAD as it would be far easier filling up the premium cabins on IAD versus BOS for CX.

ORDJOE · Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:38 pm

I am surprised CX gave up this route so long ago and never revived it. 2 of the most important financial centers of the world, one would think there would be plenty of good traffic to be had. As for BOS I am not surprised, not that it is seen that asia is a viable market. I am surprised BOS had to wait so long for routes like these

CaliAtenza · Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:14 am

Quoting ASA (Reply 16):

Indeed - but won't they now be served better with EK? Emirates has connections to 10 cities in India (including a number of second tier cities) ... unparalleled connection from Boston, IMHO.

Yeah on second thoughts they would; i think i'm stuck in my west coast dynamics

. I keep forgetting the eastern seaboard has a cornocopia of options to the Indian subcontinent.

airbazar · Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:30 am

This would have been more credible if it did not include BOS. I'll tye what I typed on the Boston thread.
Personally I don't see CX announcing BOS without so much as a peep from either the Governor or the Mayor of Boston. That April Fool's joke would have been more believable if it didn't include BOS. Obviously the person who created it does not know anything about Boston/Massachusetts politics

Viscount724 · Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:33 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
I believe Cathay used to fly to ZRH years ago.

Until sometime in 2001 based on A.net photos.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © swissbrazil

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

MAN was served as a tag-on from both AMS and CDG at various times. In the October 1996 OAG CX had 4 x week AMS-MAN and 3 x week CDG-MAN, all 744 (with 5th freedom rights on the European sectors). CX currently has freighter service to MAN.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

777Jet · Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:35 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 37):
his would have been more credible if it did not include BOS.

Good news for CX if it is true. But, I'm very surprised at BOS, however, MAN adds some credibility back to the article!

rutankrd · Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:44 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
I believe Cathay used to fly to ZRH years ago.

Until sometime in 2001 based on A.net photos.

Refer reply 32 above

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 32):

Both Manchester and Zurich were canned during the airline re-organisation and cost saving drive from the summer 2002 schedules and after the 2001 industrial disputes that closed the airline down for some weeks.

laca773 · Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:39 am

Quoting behramjee (Reply 34):

ZRH is a no brainer in terms of yield potential and they should get good volume too bound to BKK, MNL, TPE, SGN, Australia and China.

As far as BOS is concerned, I would have preferred IAD as it would be far easier filling up the premium cabins on IAD versus BOS for CX.

I'm surprised it has taken CX this long to mention returning to ZRH. Perhaps it's taken them longer, considering It's not a OW hub, and they have focused on other markets knowing they will be returning to ZRH, which won't be a tough market to re-enter. LX & CX and co-exist in this market together without any trouble.
I do think CX will be able to capture some connections from AB since they have a decent sized operation @ ZRH. IB can also offer decent connections from the markets they serve from Spain to ZRH.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see CX announce IAD in the next year or so. I do agree capturing premium demand compared to BOS will be somewhat easier. I do wonder if a 77W is too large of a a/c for the BOS market, at least to start.

celestar · Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:37 am

So happy to hear this news and sincerely hope this is not a stupid April Fool Day joke please.
I must have travelled, in the past 12 months, 4 trips to Boston and has to either go through JFK or Chicago or even at times, Toronto. Having said that, with so many flights from HK to JFK, it is a bit strange that CX chooses Boston, maybe not daily but who knows. Also, I am concern how they can fill a 777-300ER on this route, would be nice fit for 787 kind of capacity.

Please, no April Fool's day joke on this one!

mainMAN · Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:51 am

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 22):
and Manchester is not really a major international business or tourist destination.

Not major in the same league as Hong Kong, or London, but Manchester is classed as a Beta World City (and climbing), along with the likes of Vancouver, Oslo and Geneva. It has has a huge conference market.

http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/world2012t.html

Manchester is also the second most visited city in England.

[Edited 2014-04-02 00:53:04]

PM · Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:56 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
I believe Cathay used to fly to ZRH years ago

My first ever Cathay flight was ZRH-HKG CX290 747-400 VR-HOU almost exactly 21 years ago - 7th April 1993

theaviator380 · Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:53 am

I still don't understand why no carriers from India starting direct flight to MAN. Look at the Indian population in Northwest of England, Yorkshire and Midlands. It's a huge market, even 3-4 weekly flights to begin with will work in my opinion.

Does any one think CX should grab this opportunity ? I doubt AI or 9W will start anything like BOM/DEL - MAN in near future. How about CX starting MAN-BOM/DEL - HKG ?

Both segments have got decent load factor, should work ideally.

Thoughts? Thanks.

skipness1E · Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:56 am

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 45):
Look at the Indian population in Northwest of England, Yorkshire and Midlands. It's a huge market, even 3-4 weekly flights to begin with will work in my opinion.

Isn't the Birmingham more Indian with the North West more Pakistani?

RyanairGuru · Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:59 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 46):
Isn't the Birmingham more Indian with the North West more Pakistani?

Yes. The Midlands have a larger population of Indian descent, while the North West and Yorkshire have larger populations of Pakistani and Bangladeshi descent. That's not to say there are no Indians in the North West, but Pakistan is the statistically more relevant market.

And HKG-BOM-MAN is a huge detour! I doubt CX would be interested. Maybe SQ, especially as they served SIN-BOM-MAN in the past, but HKG is too far north and east to make India a viable stop-over.

theaviator380 · Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:02 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 46):

Well true, but Northwest and Yorkshire have good enough to sustain the traffic?

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 47):
but HKG is too far north and east to make India a viable stop-over.

Viable in what sense? Cheers.

RyanairGuru · Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:08 am

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 48):
Viable in what sense?

This is probably best explained from these maps:

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