• 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:28 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 50):
Cleared means there is nothing obviously suspicious about them.

So it doesn't mean much at all then I guess. Just something new to report  

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:31 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 52):
according to interviews that I read of his close family.

According to his daughter, those were pure inventions by the Daily Mail (which has a reputation for fiction).
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:45 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:38 pm

Quoting cpqi (Reply 31):
Fire - most unlikely as the plane would not have flown for so long afterwards

We most assuredly do not know that   
 
WarrenPlatts
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:03 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:43 pm

The other, official "ping arcs" or lines of position (LOP) besides the last one (00:11 UTC) have not been published, right?

It occurred to me that it should be possible to recover these LOPs simply by backtracking on the published flight paths one hour's worth of distance--450 and 400 nautical miles. Then measure the distance to the satellite GP, and one can then draw the 23:11 UTC LOP. It's a little tedious, but I got an estimate of the radius of the 23:11 LOP of ~2307 nm give or take a mile or two. Actually worked out quite well....
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1534
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 24):

Boeing will want to solve the mystery. They will not want this unresolved.
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:56 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 44):
I think several of these theories actually fit well, if you don't try to apply the reasoning of a rational, law-abiding person to what would be a crazy, criminal act.

In fact, anything that is not physically impossible, simply cannot be ruled out.

That is the bottom line.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
karungguni
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:14 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:06 pm

Does anybody have a link to a flight path that matches with the known information? I have not seen one yet that matches all information at hand including denials by the Thais and Indonesians that the plane did not cross their airspace.
 
rj777
Posts: 1799
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:06 pm

Now that the media's focus seems to have shifted to the Ft Hood shooting, maybe now the investigators can actually get something done without it being scrutinized by the media.
 
na
Posts: 9714
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:11 pm

Quoting rj777 (Reply 59):
Now that the media's focus seems to have shifted to the Ft Hood shooting, maybe now the investigators can actually get something done without it being scrutinized by the media.

Dont you think your post is too much US-centric? Ford Hood is only big news in the States, secondary news anywhere else and forgotten outside Texas tomorrow.
 
starrion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:19 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:12 pm

Has anyone suggested Malware in the flight control systems?

Are the radios sufficiently integrated that they could be disabled by software?
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
SimonDanger
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:51 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:19 pm

Bumped from post 266 of Thread # 49:

Theredbaron:

...Most probably the captain was under high stress, then he is even more disenchanted because of the political wrongdoings of the government, he is very pissed and depressed. He was probably arguing with the copilot, and after handing off to vietnamese AC, a fight ensued, the copilot was dead and the crew was knocking on the door. As it happens quite often those people burst in a fit of anger and then realizes what he has done ! he is not thinking properly and knows he will be caught upon landing, so he makes another bad choice pressed by stress and his manic approach, he turns off the coms, transponder and depresurises the cabin.... waits the knocks on the door stop, he thinks he will crash in the mountains and heads there only to realize that the CVR will tell the story... so he moves to a south route....now his bursts of anger that killed the FO, has also killed 200+ pax, so he makes the decision to fly until fuel runs out.... maybe he was alive when that happened maybe not....*


The more we know, the less we know, so I find myself circling back around to this line of reasoning with each passing day. In the absence of any new empirical evidence of this plane's whereabouts, it becomes incumbent upon investigators to explore the complex human component of this tragedy. I of course expect that Malaysian investigators are and have been doing just that (though perhaps being restrained in their efforts by national pride, reputation, respect and politics), but now I would propose that an outside, more objective investigator needs to take over this investigation. There are legitimate reasons that the Malaysians would not want this, and there are equally legitimate reasons that the rest of the world and Boeing would want this. Mind you, I am not proposing it be the U.S. I'd rather it be a qualified country with significant resources and experience in these matters...and Australia immediately comes to mind.

[Edited 2014-04-03 10:24:48
* I should mention that Redbarron was quoting someone he spoke to and not, per se, making this suggestion first-hand. ]


[Edited 2014-04-03 10:26:15]
 
transaeroyyz
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:23 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:20 pm

What about a smooth belly landing, open a door and sink without a trace, no debris, far fetched but a possibility.
 
na
Posts: 9714
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:22 pm

Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 63):
What about a smooth belly landing, open a door and sink without a trace, no debris, far fetched but a possibility.

I would say its impossible. The massive engines would make the 777 the worst plane imaginable in such an event.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:01 pm

Reasonability Check :

There is a number of theories based on…nothing which keep coming our way all the time and are in fact bringing a total intellectual pollution to the search of a coherent unravelling set of events which led to the airplane disappearing in the Southern Indian Ocean waters.
Most of these theories can be dismissed with a very quick check on reasonability on all their aspects : psychological, mental, legal, feasibility…etc…
Let’s take, in broad paragraphs the bulk of them :

I/- THE MASS MURDER THEORY
It can only happen through a depressurization of the cabin. It’s feasible, but the dropping O2 mpasks will give it away ; the cabin crew would be very aware of it, try to contact the flight deck… Total chaos would follow and IMO, it would take a very cold blooded perpetrator to live through that mayhem.
We know, as confirmed by some NTSB members that the different altitudes reported by the military are in fact suspect. The airplane kept flying at FL 350.The climb to FL 450 is an impossibility.

II/- THE MASS MURDER-CUM-SUICIDE THEORY
A much simpler, quicker way of doing so would have been a deliberate crash of the airplane from the takeoff to the initial climb : A speed of 200kt would have been sufficient to kill everyone on board with a building collision… and buildings are not scarce around an airport : terminals, control towers…etc…

III/- THE SUICIDE THEORIES
They differ from the mass murders theories in the fact that the passengers are just innocent peripheral casualties. There are a few reasons advanced by their proponents :

1/- Political Statement :
The Petronas Towers are not very far and the short time it would have taken to reach them precludes any kind of interception. There are probably other potential “targets” (government / party buildings…)

2/- Insurance reasons :
The main objection is that any insurance company would balk at any payment with the merest hint of foul play : Losing the airplane would be one reason to suspect some wrongdoing.

3/- Mental state of illness, caused by a depression following a profound letdown.
The affected person would in all probabilities be unable to hide it from closest circle of friends and family and we’d have heard of it already.

Please note that all the above have to deal with a very well known situation in that cockpit : There was someone else : the other pilot… and people thinking of the perp being left alone in the flight deck at that moment, when there is an important control changeover, doesn’(t know anything about airline flying… Plus : killing one’s colleague so quickly would have been messy and I, for one, cannot imagine staying in a very enclosed space with my comrade’s corpse.
The final objection is about the flight time : Seven hours mulling about my death, alone in the flight deck seems to me an awfully long time, probably enough to change my mind…
But it’s just me, of course.

IV/- THE HIJACKING THEORIES
The flight deck is well protected by an armored door.
It would take a pilot two seconds to dial Alpha 75 on the transponder.
We’ve heard of no demand, no claim which would have been already made on this disappearance.

RESEARCH FOR OTHER POSSIBILITIES

Here I have to say, sadly, that theories outside the above have been dismissed by most posters.

In particular:
1/- NO ONE has ever put in doubt the T7 systems. It’s as if the thing is miraculously perfect and nobody has the right to doubt its perfection… Therefore it’s something else.

However , although it’s been posted a few times, in newspapers and in the .Net, at least the AAIB had found out several instances of electrical smoke and fire on the airplane. Unfortunately, electrical diagrams from the manufacturer are both scarce and too basic , making it difficult to try and theorize on a cascading series of electrical bus failures which could explain the events.

An electrical fire, in a very protected area ( an electronic bay) would burn until the shorts are burnt out… i.e the fire won’t spread any more.

Smoke can affect humans, rendering them unconscious or worse.

A quick look at fire faults messages doesn’t give one a good grasp on what’s going on : Basically, try and reset the failed contact.

On the other hand, in the event of fire in the electronic bay, I’m not sure that it’s announced as *FIRE IN MEC*. Could just be a MEC ventilation *override* message.

2/- Kaiarahi’s remarks (the llatest on post # 49 ) on a Portable PC LI-Ion battery fire should not be dismissed so quickly: It has the qualities of suddenness, impossibility to extinguish and high temperatures which would make the cockpit a living hell… but on the other hand, this fire could spread…

So I’m personally at a loss as to finding a tree of events.

That I freely admit.
Contrail designer
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:29 pm

CNN is saying a British ship is heading out to a specific region, but can't say why, and call it a "Big Development". My guess is that submarines have been secretly trolling that part of the ocean for days using sonar and listening for "pings" but no government is willing to admit it.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 2979
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:39 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 65):
2/- Kaiarahi’s remarks (the llatest on post # 49 ) on a Portable PC LI-Ion battery fire should not be dismissed so quickly: It has the qualities of suddenness, impossibility to extinguish and high temperatures which would make the cockpit a living hell… but on the other hand, this fire could spread…

But from the video, the laptop smoked quite a bit before we saw the flame. Unless it's an instantaneous combustion situation, I would believe that the pilots would have been able to deal with the smoking laptop prior to it becoming unmanageable.

As for what to do with a burning laptop in an airplane? There is probably procedure to deal with it like wrapping it up in a wool blanket and blanket and shove it in an oven or galley cart (if they are still metallic) or an overhead bin if you have no metallic container on board.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7241
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:40 pm

If they move search area to the north 100NM/day they will be back in Strait of Malacca in no time.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8518
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:04 pm

Quoting tockeyhockey (Reply 49):
pilot suicide makes sense only if we assume he managed to incapacitate everyone else on the plane.

Why? Isn't the cockpit door strong enough? (Designed to, you know, be able to stop humans beating down on it and trying to get.) And I know there are ways to get in if the pilots are both incapacitated but can't that be overridden in the cockpit? Otherwise, all you'd need are a couple hijackers that would force the F/As or whoever can get into the cockpit to open the door and the pilots wouldn't be able to stop it.

I'm not saying pilot suicide happened or anything, I just think it's possible to have everyone in the back trying to get into the cockpit but not being able to, even for 7 hours

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 66):

CNN is saying a British ship is heading out to a specific region, but can't say why, and call it a "Big Development"

Sadly, we've heard lots of big developments, especially from CNN.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if they did get a development and are narrowing it down further and further... we must not forget how MASSIVE the search area still is. I think we have unrealistic expectations of being able to find something quickly. This is 2014, yes, but it still isnt' 2114
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:24 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 65):
I would believe that the pilots would have been able to deal with the smoking laptop prior to it becoming unmanageable.

How ? The amount of smoke is so important that soon your vivibility would be zero.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 65):

As for what to do with a burning laptop in an airplane?

I don't know of any procedure.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 65):
There is probably procedure to deal with it like wrapping it up in a wool blanket and blanket and shove it in an oven or galley cart (if they are still metallic) or an overhead bin if you have no metallic container on board.

The video shows temperature above 1000°C. Your gloves won't be enough.You won't be able to displace it, especially if it's in your flight case.
There is no class D fire extinguisher on board. All the others will make the situation worse.

That scenario is horrifying.
To say the least(.
Contrail designer
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:26 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 67):
I know there are ways to get in if the pilots are both incapacitated but can't that be overridden in the cockpit? Otherwise, all you'd need are a couple hijackers that would force the F/As or whoever can get into the cockpit to open the door and the pilots wouldn't be able to stop it.

If I don't want anybody entering the cockpit there is nothing people on the outside can do.
Contrail designer
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8518
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:34 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 69):
If I don't want anybody entering the cockpit there is nothing people on the outside can do.

That is what I thought. People probably watch too many movies where a guy can just kick down any door or a mob can break through chains and all. There have been plenty of cases were a mob of people burn to death trying to bust down a run of the mill door of a burning building and can't. Don't know the specifics of airline doors but I believe you in saying that they cannot be broken down... and it probably doesn't even require anything too technologically advanced

I think a big problem is that people are trying to find a solution to every problem. While we should work towards that, it's impossible to eliminate all risk. Some "solutions" to allow this to never happen again just make things more difficult but even worse, more unsafe for other situations
 
CaptainKramer
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:12 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:51 pm

Another avenue of possible investigation, (if not already carried out, which I have over looked in the past 50 since this thread first began!) is to look at the serial numbers of the B777-200ER, specifically those B777-200ER's delivered before and after Malaysian Airlines B777-2H6, registration 9M MRO, cn 28420, and see if any of those B777-200ER's suffered any incidents or component failures, specifically electrical in nature, or otherwise for that matter.

How difficult would that be to track down or follow up. Just a thought, given the present stalemate.
 
jpsnaggs
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:52 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:04 pm

Posted once before - been watching this from day one and fascinated.

A "what if" question....

I feel that conventional wisdom does not apply here - obviously, so is there any possibility that these "pings" which indicate the possible location of the plane are wrong... Very wrong... I keep on thinking in 6 months part of the plane will be washing up in a very bizarre location... It seems pretty obvious to me that no one really know where it is.

Also, I know the US is taking a stand back approach, waiting to be ask to get 110% involved - but I just find it that all a little curious. While I do not really think our military satellites could locate bits of debris in the vast Indian Ocean, it just boggles my mind that the US has no earthly idea where this plane is.... I am begging to think our NSA/FBI/CIA/NASA etc capabilities are just a bunch of over inflated pipe dreams.

Just my weird thoughts of the day.

[Edited 2014-04-03 13:05:34]
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8518
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:04 pm

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 71):

I'm sure Boeing did that day 1 and has been tasking some of their best minds to view any possible fault of the 777.

Airbus seems to have done something similar for AF447 and we heard about pitot tube freezing well before the public had any idea of what happened (IIRC)
 
sipadan
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:06 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:27 pm

Quoting jpsnaggs (Reply 72):
Also, I know the US is taking a stand back approach, waiting to be ask to get 110% involved - but I just find it that all a little curious. While I do not really think our military satellites could locate bits of debris in the vast Indian Ocean, it just boggles my mind that the US has no earthly idea where this plane is.... I am begging to think our NSA/FBI/CIA/NASA etc capabilities are just a bunch of over inflated pipe dreams.

as I said before...we have the technology, evidently, to locate the 'flash' from an explosion virtually anywhere in the known atmosphere, but we can't find a 777 that probably flew for 7 freaking hours...no.
 
User avatar
InsideMan
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:49 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:38 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 68):
How ? The amount of smoke is so important that soon your vivibility would be zero.

I respect you very much, but the fact is you are speculating just as much as anybody else and I can poke holes in your fire theory too. If visibility was zero or any other severe fire situation, how did the fly the plane deliberately the shortest path out of radar coverage and then straight south?

Yes, there are faster ways of killing everyone or more sensational ways of committing suicide, but the "not knowing" is at least as bad I would say.... Ask any parent whose child has gone missing. They'd rather know and make their peace than live in uncertainty....

I'm not saying it was suicide, just that it makes as much sense as any other theory
 
WarrenPlatts
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:03 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:43 pm

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 66):
CNN is saying a British ship is heading out to a specific region, but can't say why, and call it a "Big Development". My guess is that submarines have been secretly trolling that part of the ocean for days using sonar and listening for "pings" but no government is willing to admit it.

We could be witnessing a case of parallel construction underway. A submarine may have already found the pinger, but they don't want to announce that--so they're sending another ship to the location to "find" it...
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8518
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:54 pm

Quoting sipadan (Reply 74):
as I said before...we have the technology, evidently, to locate the 'flash' from an explosion virtually anywhere in the known atmosphere, but we can't find a 777 that probably flew for 7 freaking hours...no.

Flashes =/= airliners. Should we task our satellites and spend a lot of money to track all airliners just so we can find the airliners that go missing once a decade or so? Again, another solution that is a big waste of money. I know money doesn't always trump safety but it definitely plays into it

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 76):
We could be witnessing a case of parallel construction underway. A submarine may have already found the pinger, but they don't want to announce that--so they're sending another ship to the location to "find" it...

I figure this could happen, but I don't think it would happen that way. If they wanted to keep a sub secret, they'd probably just send orders to the ship to go from X to Y to Z and it's actually at Y. I don't think they'd say "hey ship, go to these random coordinates wink wink."

Hope I'm wrong and they found it  
 
User avatar
jetfuel
Posts: 1077
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:27 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:57 pm

I am not suggesting this guy is right and my technical understanding of the inmarsat interpretations is not that good so I would appreciate other's input

"I assert here that the assertion by Inmarsat is wrong. I do not assert that the aircraft definitely took a northerly route. However, I present evidence hereunder that a northerly route cannot be excluded on the basis of the satellite data, and that a northerly track remains viable in terms of what the satellite data can tell us."

http://www.duncansteel.com/archives/507

????????????
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1683
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:08 pm

Quoting sipadan (Reply 74):
...we have the technology, evidently, to locate the 'flash' from an explosion virtually anywhere in the known atmosphere,

American EW satellites have the capability to detect atmospheric nuclear detonations in many cases, and the US keeps various missile silo locations in the world under active EW surveillance, but saying we have the capability to detect "an explosion virtually anywhere in the known atmosphere" is a drastic overstatement. Um, no,... it doesn't work that way.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7241
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:24 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 78):
I am not suggesting this guy is right and my technical understanding of the inmarsat interpretations is not that good so I would appreciate other's input

For the very reason Inmarsat should use reputed institutions to run several models simultaneously. Institutes work on advanced research already have security clearance.

Even for a routine hurricane NWS looks into 28+ models from various sources and picks most likely one. They don't use one model from NOAA and say "this is it". Even though they are the best.

One can understand Inmarsat has to protect its commercial interests, but this is not the time and 3F1 is not cutting technology either.
 
sipadan
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:06 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:44 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 79):
American EW satellites have the capability to detect atmospheric nuclear detonations in many cases, and the US keeps various missile silo locations in the world under active EW surveillance, but saying we have the capability to detect "an explosion virtually anywhere in the known atmosphere" is a drastic overstatement. Um, no,... it doesn't work that way.

um, I said, "evidently" and for a reason. In the immediate aftermath Barbara Star herself, CNN's PENTAGON correspondent described this technology exactly as I have described it and then said that govt. sources were telling her that nothing was spotted. Let me ask you this..Does the US have the technology to detect explosions and the resultant flashes in the sky, or not. Yes or No?
 
rc135x
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:46 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:51 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 78):
"I assert here that the assertion by Inmarsat is wrong. I do not assert that the aircraft definitely took a northerly route. However, I present evidence hereunder that a northerly route cannot be excluded on the basis of the satellite data, and that a northerly track remains viable in terms of what the satellite data can tell us."

I am not sure this is actually a meaningful exercise or statement.

Didn't Inmarsat originally offer both northern and southern arcs, and then update their conclusions by saying their analysis suggests the southern arc had the better (best?) fit with their data, and then the Malaysian PM drew the conclusion that the Inmarsat southern arc was valid beyond a reasonable doubt…

Indeed, isn't this the argument that some passenger families made as being specious or premature?

I certainly lack the technical and analytic abilities to grind through the data myself, but it seems to me that the evidence leading to priority given the southern arc is as much the absence of detection in the northern arc as it is some absolute, inviolate knowledge of the validity of the southern arc.

At this point, sadly, I think we (both on the forums and in the investigation) cannot agree on anything beyond the knowledge that MH370 was not where it was expected to be on 8 March (the ramp at PEK) and that it is not *still* airborne…….
KC-135A, A(RT), D, E, E(RT), Q, R, EC-135A, C, G, L, RC-135S, U, V, W, X, TC-135S, W
 
rc135x
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:46 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:57 pm

Quoting sipadan (Reply 81):
Does the US have the technology to detect explosions and the resultant flashes in the sky, or not. Yes or No?

Yes. DMSP and civilian meteorological satellites can detect lightning flashes in the atmosphere. They can also detect surface explosions such as the 1989 Siberian pipeline explosion.

The ability to do so does not necessarily imply that they are tasked to do so, or that it is some simple procedural matter to conduct a post hoc search and detect the crash of an airplane as inferred by a flash.
KC-135A, A(RT), D, E, E(RT), Q, R, EC-135A, C, G, L, RC-135S, U, V, W, X, TC-135S, W
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:06 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 75):
I respect you very much, but the fact is you are speculating just as much as anybody else and I can poke holes in your fire theory too. If visibility was zero or any other severe fire situation, how did the fly the plane deliberately the shortest path out of radar coverage and then straight south?

To be fair, it's me speculating, not Pihero. But the FAA does have a database of 130 incidents, and some of them are very scary. Like Pihero, I find the prospect horrifying in my own home, let alone on a plane - there are only 3 laptops in my house; on any given flight (except LCC leisure), there are probably 40+. And let's not forget what Li-Ion did to the ET aircraft at LHR - burned out the crown.



And defending myself on the speculation - Li-Ion letting go is a known hazard, about which nothing has been done (except for the 787battery). And the known incidents of Li-Ion products letting go (130+) is WAY higher than the incidents of suicidal pilots, or even hijackings in the last 15 years.[Edited 2014-04-03 15:07:45]


[Edited 2014-04-03 15:18:02]
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
User avatar
Dalavia
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:08 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:09 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 78):
"I assert here that the assertion by Inmarsat is wrong. I do not assert that the aircraft definitely took a northerly route. However, I present evidence hereunder that a northerly route cannot be excluded on the basis of the satellite data, and that a northerly track remains viable in terms of what the satellite data can tell us."

http://www.duncansteel.com/archives/507

The discussion thread at the end of his article, which runs to a several hundred (I'm guessing) comments and questions, is also worth taking the time to read.

It is a very mind broadening discussion indeed.
 
sipadan
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:06 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:14 pm

Quoting rc135x (Reply 83):
Yes. DMSP and civilian meteorological satellites can detect lightning flashes in the atmosphere. They can also detect surface explosions such as the 1989 Siberian pipeline explosion.

Thanks for the response...appreciated. Yeah, it's OLS system. As to the tasking, it seems like there does exist very comprehensive and round the clock coverage. Enough so, at least, to have the Pentagon make an official statement that this type of imagery did not pick up anything, 'have any hits', in the region where MH370 reportedly went missing.

Also, press is reporting that something "BIG" is to be revealed at upcoming press conference in Australia. The press is being told by Australian officials that this is 'big'. We'll see?
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3272
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:17 pm

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 60):
The more we know, the less we know, so I find myself circling back around to this line of reasoning with each passing day. In the absence of any new empirical evidence of this plane's whereabouts, it becomes incumbent upon investigators to explore the complex human component of this tragedy.

Yes we are un square one... this might be the Glenn Miller of the XIX century. I think my friends line of reasoning based on depressed-manic persons fit the bill, it could have been one of the crew BTW.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 63):
Plus : killing one’s colleague so quickly would have been messy and I, for one, cannot imagine staying in a very enclosed space with my comrade’s corpse.
The final objection is about the flight time : Seven hours mulling about my death, alone in the flight deck seems to me an awfully long time, probably enough to change my mind…
But it’s just me, of course.

While I agree with your statements Pihero, You and I are mostly sane person who would never do such acts, but people with mental illness do weird stuff like killing their grand ma and keeping the corpse from months etc... my friend make specific remarks on stress and desperation. When you mix Stress, desperation and mania, a lot of weird things can happen. Just remember I am not in the captain did it Camp, but is a factual possibility nonetheless.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 63):
On the other hand, in the event of fire in the electronic bay, I’m not sure that it’s announced as *FIRE IN MEC*. Could just be a MEC ventilation *override* message.

A question the Electronics bay is under the cockpit? could a fire in the cabin from a rogue battery melted the floor and gone not the Electronics bay?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 63):
Portable PC LI-Ion battery fire should not be dismissed so quickly: It has the qualities of suddenness, impossibility to extinguish

Those are really dangerous, my manual estates, if you have "an event", use your steel pliers grab it asap and put it in your metal bin, exit the premises call the fire department..

Quoting Pihero (Reply 68):
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 65):

As for what to do with a burning laptop in an airplane?

I don't know of any procedure.

Pray...

Quoting sipadan (Reply 74):
as I said before...we have the technology, evidently, to locate the 'flash' from an explosion virtually anywhere in the known atmosphere, but we can't find a 777 that probably flew for 7 freaking hours...no.

I bet some letter named agencies have a pretty good notion where is the AC, they won't tell, because they "officially" can't know or don't have there tech to do it...

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:25 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 75):
, but the fact is you are speculating just as much as anybody else and I can poke holes in your fire theory too. If visibility was zero or any other severe fire situation, how did the fly the plane deliberately the shortest path out of radar coverage and then straight south?

The problem is that yoiu can't, as you say, *
poke holes in my speculation* without going into another speculation, which is "they flew the plane deliberately the shortest path out of radar coverage
How many other speculations does that make ?
So Let's see :
1/- They flew : You don't know that
2/- Deliberately : you don't know that either
3/- Shortest path : You have to define it : From IGARI to some place in the Straits, the direct route would havce been the worst for avoiding radar.
4/- out of radar coverage : They were, for at least one hour within radar range of Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia and later probably inside Cocos Islands coverage...etc...

All the above are, tto say the least assumptions, some of them quite wild .

May I just remind you that the only facts we have are :
- An airplane from KL bound for Beijing
- Which was lost to all sensors at a point near IGARI (this point was reminded to me by PM by rc135x )
- The airplane is not in PKG nor is it in KL
.......... The rest is conjunture........................

Kaiarahi, on the other hand gave us a visual assessment of one possible event.

I personally invited this forum to have a look at the AAIB findings from an UAL T7 fire at LHR, with a discussion on several other related events. Did you read it ?
If no,
This is just the conclusion :

"The investigation identified the following causal factors:
1.- An internal failure of the Right Generator Circuit Breaker or Right
Bus Tie Breaker contactor on the P200 power panel inside the Main
Equipment Centre resulted in severe internal arcing and short-circuits
which melted the contactor casings. The root cause of contactor
failure could not be determined.

2.- The open base of the P200 power panel allowed molten metal droplets
from the failed contactors to drop down onto the insulation blankets
and ignite them.

3.- The aircraft’s electrical protection system was not designed to detect
and rapidly remove power from a contactor suffering from severe
internal arcing and short-circuits.

4.- The contactors had internal design features that probably contributed
to the uncontained failures.
"
The whole report, with its references can be found Here

But, after all, I'm cynical enough to acknowledge the fact that for the uninitiated, wild mass murder / terrorist... theories are easier to discuss, especially when others can vent on top racial and cultural prejudices.

[Edited 2014-04-03 15:32:45]
Contrail designer
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:31 pm

Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 87):
A question the Electronics bay is under the cockpit?

yes

Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 87):
could a fire in the cabin from a rogue battery melted the floor and gone not the Electronics bay?

It would take a very long time.
But things would change if the laptop in question xas one of the pilots' personal computer... and most airlines provide them to their Flight Deck Crews.
Contrail designer
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 2979
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:32 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 68):
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 65):
I would believe that the pilots would have been able to deal with the smoking laptop prior to it becoming unmanageable.

How ? The amount of smoke is so important that soon your vivibility would be zero.

My premise is that the cockpit crew would notice the smoke long before visibility will reach zero. I would suspect that the crew would probably smell the smoke before they see it. As for reaction time. That is where you got me.

Unlike smoking wiring in behind the liner, you should have easy access to the smoking laptop. How long does it take to get out of the seat grab the smoking laptop or bag and run it to the galley, or even the lav?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 68):

The video shows temperature above 1000°C. Your gloves won't be enough.You won't be able to displace it, especially if it's in your flight case.

That is why you use the wool blanket. Wool won't burn easily and may protect you enough to move the lap top to a secure location. If it's either burning your hands or losing the aircraft, I suspect you as a captain would chose the former.

The stowage bin is design to hold a fire (not sure about an electrical fire) for at least 5 minutes.
A metal container (galley cart) can withstand a fire for at least 15 minutes if made from aluminum and more than that if made from steel. You will probably still have to deal with the smoke, but once you get it out of the cockpit, you'll have a better shot at saving the aircraft.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:34 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 90):
The stowage bin is design to hold a fire (not sure about an electrical fire) for at least 5 minutes.

Check out the FAA incident database - it's scary!
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Guillermo
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:54 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:39 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 68):
The video shows temperature above 1000°C. Your gloves won't be enough.You won't be able to displace it, especially if it's in your flight case.
There is no class D fire extinguisher on board. All the others will make the situation worse.

That scenario is horrifying.
To say the least(.

I very much agree on the horrifyng scenario.

However, a laptop battery fully charged can roughly accumulate some 50 W/h of energy... not so much. I do not know if an internal short could provoque hot points of about 1000 °C, but this is not the main risk because it hardly will develop enough heat quantity to melt a metallic container.

For example, aluminum melting point is about 660 °C, but depending on the mass involved you will need enough heat quantity to get to that point. If heat production is not enough, heat exchange will stop at some point without any damage for the container.

So IMHO if there are no other better means or procedures to cope with such a situation on board, perhaps the safest thing to do is try to throw the battery or even hole computer inside a metallic container (e.g. an oven, heating container for food, etc.) and leave it there until the internal battery energy will be transformed from electrical power to heat that will dissipate in the cabin air volume.

Regards.
 
EricR
Posts: 1226
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:15 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:12 pm

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 64):

CNN is saying a British ship is heading out to a specific region, but can't say why, and call it a "Big Development". My guess is that submarines have been secretly trolling that part of the ocean for days using sonar and listening for "pings" but no government is willing to admit it.

Oh good God. CNN is the most sensationalized media outlet. Nothing will be located. Just more floating junk. CNN is grasping at straws to keep viewership up now that the story has died down.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 24):

Guys, the search is over.

  

Yes. It has been over for a while now. Random searches will continue over the years (similar to searches for the Titanic). However, for all practical purposes, this one is over.

Regarding the theory of a mechanical issue or fire, it does not add up. If it were mechanical or fire, the plane would not have made an abrupt turn back west via specific way points and then flown for an additional 7 to 8 hours with no contact. The path the plane took and the duration of time it was flying was very deliberate.

[Edited 2014-04-03 16:26:52]
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:22 pm

Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 87):
this might be the Glenn Miller of the XIX century

Did Glen Miller ride in a Wells Fargo stagecoach or steam locomotive that went missing? What does that have to do with the missing 777?   
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:45 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:33 pm

I am very much with Pihero on keeping an open mind to fire / equipment failure.

What if there was a sudden fire in the cockpit (it has happened before in a 772), and the crew started pulling breakers and finally had to vacate the cockpit-- making firefighting an even higher priority than aviating, for at least a few minutes until they could return to fly the aircraft? That sort of speculation is far less ridiculous, in my opinion, than all the theories about a crazed, suicidal and murderous cockpit crew.
 
jcxroberts
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:41 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:41 pm

There's no evidence against the pilot whatsoever, nothing in his background, nothing on his simulator. No previous suicides have had a pilot flying off for seven hours. Just amazed people are buying this line we are being fed.

[Edited 2014-04-03 16:42:47]
 
User avatar
Dalavia
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:08 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:46 pm

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 97):
There's no evidence against the pilot whatsoever, nothing in his background, nothing on his simulator. He's upper middle class, westernized. Just amazed people are buying this line we are being fed.

I agree that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

There is insufficient evidence in the public arena to come to any firm conclusion at this stage.

Paradoxically, I think it is this lack of evidence and factual data that leads people to suspect the pilot, given the apparent evidence of deliberate decisions being made at specific times early in the flight. What I can't understand is why the same level of scrutiny seems not be focussed on the First Officer.

Perhaps those who are inside the investigation know much more than has been revealed publicly. Indeed, I would be surprised if this were not so.
 
fooflyboy
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:15 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:47 pm

Quoting sipadan (Reply 86):
Also, press is reporting that something "BIG" is to be revealed at upcoming press conference in Australia.

When is the press conference?
 
EricR
Posts: 1226
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:15 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50

Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:47 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 96):

What if there was a sudden fire in the cockpit (it has happened before in a 772), and the crew started pulling breakers and finally had to vacate the cockpit-- making firefighting an even higher priority than aviating, for at least a few minutes until they could return to fly the aircraft? That sort of speculation is far less ridiculous, in my opinion, than all the theories about a crazed, suicidal and murderous cockpit crew.

And during this time while fighting this fire, the plane somehow magically flies through specific way points and when the crew finishes fighting the fire, return to the cockpit to fly an additional 7 hours instead of attempting to land the plane...That sounds more reasonable to you?
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos