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ei737ng
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Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:15 pm

Hi folks

Just wondering if Lufthansa has regretted its decision to buy VLA's whether it's the a380 or 748. The reason why I ask is that they capped their order for 748's at 19 and cancelled their remaining orders of a number of a380's. Have they now reconsidered that twins are the way forward. Lufthansa are the only airline in the world presently that fly both options as far as VLA's go, do they have a preference in which one they prefer? Please don't turn this into an airbus vs Boeing argument
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:24 pm

The VLA's are meant for growth / expansion. Lufthansa canceled because they have become more conservative towards traffic growth in the near future. Instead, the airline will focus on 1:1 replacement of the current A340 and 744 fleet.
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Horstroad
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:36 pm

From what I have heard they are highly unsatisfied with their 748 fleet. It seems that this plane has some serious issues with condensation in the cabin and I think the blocked trim tank is (was?) a major drawback regarding efficiency. There might be more issues I haven't heard of.
It's not that much favoured by the pilots either... I have read some ridiculous technical log book entries where one of them vents his anger... not very professional, but telling.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:38 pm

Quoting horstroad (Reply 2):
From what I have heard they are highly unsatisfied with their 748 fleet.

In public, Lufthansa said they are very satisfied with the 748 fleet.
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phxa340
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:58 pm

Quoting horstroad (Reply 2):

Members on this forum disagree with what you have heard. Their performance is also well known, early builds miss spec by 1-3% and newer frames are starting to meet promises. In addition, please provide a source for the condensation problems.
 
justloveplanes
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:04 pm

It might depend on whether one is a pilot or an accountant.....
 
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ua900
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:05 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
In public, Lufthansa said they are very satisfied with the 748 fleet.

As a launch customer who was able to provide design input, they should be.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 1):
The VLA's are meant for growth / expansion. Lufthansa canceled because they have become more conservative towards traffic growth in the near future. Instead, the airline will focus on 1:1 replacement of the current A340 and 744 fleet.

LH has found a way to use aircraft other carriers were not able to put to good use.

Look at their successful usage of the 343 and the 346 over the last ten years and see how many carriers were able to make these work as well as LH. It's no different with the 748 and the 388. LH manages to send 388s to places like MIA on a regular basis and was able to expand LAX service to two 748s daily.

The VLA market is likely the only remaining quad market going forward and I think LH will still need and prefer them over say a 77W, in particular with FRA routes to leading cities around the world, especially other *A hubs. I don't see LH do frequency over VLA in long haul markets the same way others might. Too much riding on FRA for that to work at LH.
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by738
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:27 pm

Id be surprised if LH were not getting a good deal out of their 748's in some shape or form
 
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:55 pm

Quoting horstroad (Reply 2):
It's not that much favoured by the pilots either...

I believe wilcox737 flies the 747-8 for LH (I know he is a 747 pilot for them) and as I recall, he's been quite favorable towards her.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:02 pm

Quoting horstroad (Reply 2):
It's not that much favoured by the pilots either... I have read some ridiculous technical log book entries where one of them vents his anger... not very professional, but telling.

All respect for the pilots, but how can the personal opinion of a pilot tell us something about the aircraft economics? Does a pilot know if the aircraft is meeting the contractual performance?
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
n471wn
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:07 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 7):
Id be surprised if LH were not getting a good deal out of their 748's in some shape or form

Let us hope Boeing gives them a good deal on the one they cancelled
 
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PW100
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:25 pm

Quoting horstroad (Reply 2):
From what I have heard they are highly unsatisfied with their 748 fleet. It seems that this plane has some serious issues with condensation in the cabin and I think the blocked trim tank is (was?) a major drawback regarding efficiency. There might be more issues I haven't heard of

I'll be highly skeptical on this kind of claims. Not saying there is no smoke, but seriously doubt there is a fire.

In any organization you can and will find disgruntled folks, trying to blame part or the complete organization. They'll use everything they can trying to make their point or just be heard.

Another possibility might be that small problems get huge blown out of proportion. As long as that is within the organization, and one understands the context, that is OK. But once those exact words go outside the company, totally different conclusion are attached to them.

As long as this is not confirmed by several different independent sources, I'm not really buying it at the moment.

Rgds,
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:04 pm

Quoting ei737ng (Thread starter):
Just wondering if Lufthansa has regretted its decision to buy VLA's whether it's the a380 or 748.

Considering how many of each they took delivery of, I would say no.



Quoting horstroad (Reply 2):
From what I have heard they are highly unsatisfied with their 748 fleet.

Which must explain why they continue to take regular delivery of them, including one a few days ago and another one within the next few weeks.  
Quoting horstroad (Reply 2):
It seems that this plane has some serious issues with condensation in the cabin...

That was an issue with the 787.

Quoting horstroad (Reply 2):
... and I think the blocked trim tank is (was?) a major drawback regarding efficiency.

The lack of a horizontal stabilizer fuel tank was said to affect the trim of the plane early in the flight, but if I am remembering the threads in Tech/Ops correctly, that tank is drained relatively early so the benefit it provides is for only a short duration.
 
kaitak744
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:21 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Which must explain why they continue to take regular delivery of them, including one a few days ago and another one within the next few weeks.  

They take delivery because they contractually have to..... not because they want to. That is not a sign if they like the aircraft or not.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:24 am

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 13):
They take delivery because they contractually have to..... not because they want to. That is not a sign if they like the aircraft or not.

Nothing is stopping them from cancelling the contract.
 
AR385
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:45 am

Quoting ei737ng (Thread starter):
Just wondering if Lufthansa has regretted its decision to buy VLA's whether it's the a380 or 748. The reason why I ask is that they capped their order for 748's at 19 and cancelled their remaining orders of a number of a380's. Have they now reconsidered that twins are the way forward.

LH has a strategy for the two aircraft. The A380s are for high density routes and the 747-8is are mainly for high density routes that are also Premium heavy. It´s also what I have read in industry publications. So they are really for different markets. The fact they´ve capped their orders has more to do with how the global economy has not recovered as fast as people believed it would, not with them regretting their purchase.

Quoting horstroad (Reply 2):
From what I have heard they are highly unsatisfied with their 748 fleet. It seems that this plane has some serious issues with condensation in the cabin and I think the blocked trim tank is (was?) a major drawback regarding efficiency. There might be more issues I haven't heard of.

I have read quite the opposite. But maybe you have more contact with people in charge of the day to day operation.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
I believe wilcox737 flies the 747-8 for LH (I know he is a 747 pilot for them) and as I recall, he's been quite favorable towards her.

Yep Wiloco737 is. He flies both the 744 and the 748 interchangeably. So far seems very happy with the 748.
 
crownvic
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:03 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 9):
Quoting horstroad (Reply 2):
It's not that much favoured by the pilots either... I have read some ridiculous technical log book entries where one of them vents his anger... not very professional, but telling.

All respect for the pilots, but how can the personal opinion of a pilot tell us something about the aircraft economics? Does a pilot know if the aircraft is meeting the contractual performance?

I am the first one, to frequently disagree with pilots. I use to manage them and they drove me nuts   However, a pilot can give a good indication of the economics of an aircraft, mainly in the area of fuel burn. If a pilot has been flying a 744 long haul for a good portion of his career and switches to a 748, he will notice an immediate fuel consumption reduction and can give an accurate comparison. While I agree they may know very little about PSM's or PSK's, they will have a general good idea if a plane is performing well or not.
 
Cloneof501
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:00 am

Quoting horstroad,reply=2It's not that much favoured by the pilots either... I have read some ridiculous technical log book entries where one of them vents his anger... not very professional, but telling. :

I spoke to two pilots on the 744 last year after landing at EWR and both said they fly the 748 as well. They both said they loved and enjoyed flying it.
 
Dufo
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:41 am

A pilot's and accountant's view of same plane/operation can be worlds apart. I too enjoyed doing 15 minutes flights which finished my daily duty at 8 AM but it didn't last long.
I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.
 
galleypower
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:20 pm

On a meeting last december we were told change from B744 to B748 changed LAX from merley breaking even to a very profitable route. So economics must be good. There are quite some destinations on the network that have severe slot restrictions, market demand can only be satisfied by upgauging. Same on A380. Condensation on the -8 is due to missing doorheating systems to save weight. It is beeing addressed as we speak and will be retrofittet. Cabin crews on the -8 call the queen of the skies the ice princess  

edited for spelling

[Edited 2014-04-05 06:22:25]
 
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PW100
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
Nothing is stopping them from cancelling the contract.

Well, they did, for one example . . .
But in all fairness, off course these type of multi-billion dollar contracts don't get cancelled just like that. LH has already spend/invested a huge amount of money to get the 748 into the fleet. Not only in the frames themselves, but also in a lot of supporting equipment, logistics, maintenance etc.
LH will be flying the 748 for years to come, and I will enjoy every single example as an aviation nutter, either from the inside, or even more alongside the runway spots at FRA!

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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:56 pm

Quoting horstroad (Reply 2):
From what I have heard they are highly unsatisfied with their 748 fleet. It seems that this plane has some serious issues with condensation in the cabin and I think the blocked trim tank is (was?) a major drawback regarding efficiency. There might be more issues I haven't heard of.

Yeah, I really would not be surprised if they punt these quickly. I just don't see why its needed if you have A359's that can do 90% of the routes with only 2 engines and better CASM. Plus its a small fleet sub type

And if its not up to spec, that just shortens its utility to the airline.
 
flyinTLow
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:22 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Quoting horstroad (Reply 2):
It seems that this plane has some serious issues with condensation in the cabin...

That was an issue with the 787.

It also very much is with the 747-8. Ask any pilot or flight attendant or technician at LH, and they will tell you.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Quoting horstroad (Reply 2):
Quoting horstroad (Reply 2):
... and I think the blocked trim tank is (was?) a major drawback regarding efficiency.

The lack of a horizontal stabilizer fuel tank was said to affect the trim of the plane early in the flight, but if I am remembering the threads in Tech/Ops correctly, that tank is drained relatively early so the benefit it provides is for only a short duration.

It is not only a problem at the beginning of the flight. The trim tank is normally also utilized the entire flight. Fuel is pumped back and forth to allow for an optimum center of gravity to minimize fuel burn. If the trim tank is not available, the entire system is not available --> Not as efficient as it could be.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 21):
Plus its a small fleet sub type

LH does not really have "small sub types". Getting 19 747-8s makes it a rather reasonably-sized fleet.
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:55 pm

Quoting flyinTLow (Reply 22):
It also very much is with the 747-8. Ask any pilot or flight attendant or technician at LH, and they will tell you.

Fair enough. Haven't noticed it up in the nose on my flights.



Quoting flyinTLow (Reply 22):
It is not only a problem at the beginning of the flight. The trim tank is normally also utilized the entire flight. Fuel is pumped back and forth to allow for an optimum center of gravity to minimize fuel burn. If the trim tank is not available, the entire system is not available --> Not as efficient as it could be.

Based on posts from 747-400 and 747-8 pilots in the TechOps threads, the 747-400 and 747-8 stabilizer tank fuel flow is only one direction - from the tail tank to the center tank. It is not designed to allow fuel transfer back and forth to help trim the airframe in flight.

Wilco737, who flies the 744 and 748 for LH, has noted that the benefit of the tank is it improves CG trim, however they draw from it early in the flight. Bellerophon noted that they do this as if there is a problem that prevents the fuel from being removed at the later stages of the flight with the center tank nearly empty, the CG would be too dangerous to allow a safe landing. So they draw it down early to know it's empty while they are in a position to make a safe landing.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
That was an issue with the 787.
Quoting flyinTLow (Reply 22):
It also very much is with the 747-8. Ask any pilot or flight attendant or technician at LH, and they will tell you.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
Fair enough. Haven't noticed it up in the nose on my flights.

It's a known issue on the 747-8, not sure about the 787.

Has Boeing addressed this issue? I recall reading that Boeing would make changes to the environmental control system, but I'm not sure about the current status.
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MD11Bob
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:25 pm

From my work I have a good overview about LH route profitability. However, I will not be able to provide any tangible source, so believe me or not, up to you.

There is a technical issue regarding the condensation with the 747-8, water gets soaked up in an isolation carpet below the deck, which adds up to 1 ton (!!) of weight over the time and is rather cumbersome to remove. But overall reliability is very high.

From an economics point of view, I can guarantee you that LH is very happy with the 747-8. It boosts route profitability whereever it is used. It performs above expected performance, the 1 to 3% savings (edited: 1 to 3% better than specs provided by Boeing before beginning of regular flight service) often referred to here in the forum are widely accepted as a fact.

Quoting galleypower (Reply 19):
On a meeting last december we were told change from B744 to B748 changed LAX from merley breaking even to a very profitable route. So economics must be good.

Ditto.

Bob

[Edited 2014-04-05 10:43:47]
 
bmacleod
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:39 pm

I wondering now that LH has ordered the 777-9x (likely classified as a VLA) how they are still going to fill their 747-8s until after 2020 when they're retired?
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:57 pm

Quoting flyinTLow (Reply 22):
It is not only a problem at the beginning of the flight. The trim tank is normally also utilized the entire flight. Fuel is pumped back and forth to allow for an optimum center of gravity to minimize fuel burn. If the trim tank is not available, the entire system is not available --> Not as efficient as it could be.

Nope. the 747 is neither an Airbus nor a MD-11. The tail tank is just the reserve tank for the center tank. Once the fuel level in the center tank falls below a certain value (around half) given by a single point level sensor, the fuel will be transfered from the tail tank to the center tank. This is it. No moving fuel back and forth for trim purposes.
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by738
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:30 pm

Thank goodness for those actually in the know....
 
SASMD82
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:40 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
I believe wilcox737 flies the 747-8 for LH (I know he is a 747 pilot for them) and as I recall, he's been quite favorable towards her.

Our dearly wilko737 is always positive towards any Boeing product. If he would say some negative things about the 748, there would have been a major issue.  

In the 80s many airlines had difficulties to fill their 747/DC-10s. They managed to do so later. I bet this will happen for the 380 (and to a minor extend to the 748 as well).
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:43 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
wilcox737
Quoting AR385 (Reply 15):
Wiloco737
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 29):
wilko737

I believe his username is Wilco737

 
 
mffoda
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:56 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 30):

That's sort of funny....  

But, 99.999999999999999999999999999999 percent of a-netters knew who they were talking about.
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
douglasyxz
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:36 pm

Latest release of German magazin Aero International has a readers comment about condensation inside 748. The magazin got an official statement from LH, saying condensation is due to new insulation that has been changed from 744 to 748. LH is in close contact with Boeing and the problem is currently being addressed. There is no restriction in capacity in any class, LH says in this statement.

The March release of Aero International had a nice review of the EIS at LH. Introduction went almost flawless and LH seems to be happy. The 10. copy of 748 will have the first engine PIP, new FMC software and tail tank activated. According to the magazine, these three improvements can be retrofitted to number 1-9, just as Wilco737 said here on this forum. PIP brings 1,8%, FMC and tail tank activation another 1,7% fuel burn reduction. Starting from number 10, LH's 748 will burn 16% less fuel than its 744, according to Aero International.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:40 pm

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 32):
Starting from number 10, LH's 748 will burn 16% less fuel than its 744, according to Aero International.

These numbers are always confusing. Is it 16% less trip cost, or 16% less fuel per seat?
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douglasyxz
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:56 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 33):

Unfortunately, they say 'Spritersparniss' only, so fuel burn reduction. But a couple of sentences later it was mentioned that LH wanted more capacity inside 748 to reduce fuel burn per seat when they were working on the specs with Boeing.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:02 pm

I'n guessing it is per seat as Boeing's own comments are that non-fuel trip costs are roughly a wash between the 747-8 and 747-400.

And the new 386-seat configuration gives the 747-8 17% more seats than the 330-seat 747-400 (both have 8 First and 80 Business with the 747-8 having an additional 56 Economy seats).
 
wilco737
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:10 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 29):
Our dearly wilko737 is always positive towards any Boeing product. If he would say some negative things about the 748, there would have been a major issue.  

Well, I never flew Airbus. Just spent couple hours in the 320 sim. But that's not enough to judge properly. I am a Boeing fan, always been.
The 748 use less fuel than the 744. You see it on the trips when you order fuel. I don't know how much % it actually uses less, but it is for sure noticable for us.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 30):
I believe his username is Wilco737

Yes, it is  For almost 10 years now.

I think the 380 is simply too big. THere are 526 seats in the ship you need to fill up. Sometimes daily. That is not too easy. And I guess LH wants to be a little more flexible with 744 or 748. Or 346/343/333. Gives a good variety of seats. You see the difference in summer and winter schedule about capacity.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
Wilco737, who flies the 744 and 748 for LH, has noted that the benefit of the tank is it improves CG trim, however they draw from it early in the flight

The tail tank is not activated on all 748's yet. But it will improve the CG for take off and the inital part of the flight as the tail tank is the tank which will be used first. It is not used as trim tank (like on some airbus or MD11).

wilCo737
  

[Edited 2014-04-06 10:12:06]
 
AR385
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:24 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 30):
I believe his username is Wilco737

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 36):
Yes, it is For almost 10 years now.

In my defense, mine was a typo.  
 
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gennadius
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:21 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 36):
The tail tank is not activated on all 748's yet. But it will improve the CG for take off and the inital part of the flight as the tail tank is the tank which will be used first. It is not used as trim tank (like on some airbus or MD11).

Hello wilco737! Long time lurker for many years. I just wanted to say thank you for all the direct experience and information you contribute to this forum. There are many others I would like to thank as well, I'm just taking the opportunities as they present themselves.

With respect to the tail tank, is it true that, as has been reported here and there, that at Lufthansa's urging some of the software was changed to allow the fuel to stay in the tail tank longer than was originally designed? Clearly it is still not an actual trim tank, but is the change in time long enough for it to provide significant savings?

Also, have you flown on any of the PIP'd frames yet? Do you have any insight into how they're performing in actual revenue service?

Thanks again, and looking forward to hopefully flying on one of your planes later this year, most likely ORD-FRA!
Per ardua, ad astra
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:38 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 36):
I think the 380 is simply too big.

...just as the B73G is simply too small for others.

We can throw such comments at any aircraft. Every type has its niche or market; the A380 seems to attract quite polarised views on a.net which I think does the type an injustice.

The fact can not be ignored that no operator of the A380 has withdrawn, sold or returned a single frame; something must be going right.   

Rgds
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astuteman
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:47 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 36):
I think the 380 is simply too big.

It's probably too big for the 748 routes you get to fly Wilco.....

I wonder if the LH pilots who fly the A380 would tell you it's too big .... ?

Rgds
 
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gennadius
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:13 am

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 39):
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 36):
I think the 380 is simply too big.

...just as the B73G is simply too small for others.
Quoting astuteman (Reply 40):

It's probably too big for the 748 routes you get to fly Wilco.....

I wonder if the LH pilots who fly the A380 would tell you it's too big .... ?

I would think that all wilco737 was trying to say was that Lufthansa has found a certain way to utilize the different frames, 747-8 and 380, in different markets, or sometimes in the same market at different times.

Obviously that's just my interpretation, but the behavior of LH with respect to how they use their frames and the revenue that they generate from them, would lend one to believe that a pilot's interpretation of the situation is fairly accurate.
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BlueShamu330s
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:23 am

Quoting Gennadius (Reply 41):
I would think that all wilco737 was trying to say was that Lufthansa has found a certain way to utilize the different frames, 747-8 and 380, in different markets, or sometimes in the same market at different times.

is very different to

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 36):
I think the 380 is simply too big.

My point was that Lufthansa, and other A380 operators, clearly think differently as every A380 sold/leased remains in service.

But there again, what do us aviators know? It's a game for accountants these days.  

Rgds
Flying around India
 
astuteman
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:20 pm

Quoting Gennadius (Reply 41):
I would think that all wilco737 was trying to say was that Lufthansa has found a certain way to utilize the different frames

I would think that you are the only person that can find an ambiguity in "I think the 380 is simply too big". It does what it says on the tin.

I am the one who is saying that LH (like other airlines that have ordered the A380) will utilise it appropriately on the routes that merit it. And they Do exist, even in LH's network   

Quoting Gennadius (Reply 41):
the behavior of LH with respect to how they use their frames and the revenue that they generate from them, would lend one to believe that a pilot's interpretation of the situation is fairly accurate.

A pilot who has never flown an Airbus? Or one that flies LH's A380's regularly?

Rgds
 
phxa340
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:39 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 39):
The fact can not be ignored that no operator of the A380 has withdrawn, sold or returned a single frame; something must be going right.

But you don't see operators firming options for the most part of either the 748 or 380. But the same operators of these VLAs are flocking towards the 350,787,77X.
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:08 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 36):
The tail tank is not activated on all 748's yet. But it will improve the CG for take off and the inital part of the flight as the tail tank is the tank which will be used first. It is not used as trim tank (like on some airbus or MD11).

When in the world is this ever going to be worked out?

Ever? Seriously Boeing.

LH doesn't really have routes that push the 747 to the end of the range envelope, but if QF or CX ordered this bird it might be a serious issue for some of their VLH routes.
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SEPilot
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:12 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 44):

But you don't see operators firming options for the most part of either the 748 or 380. But the same operators of these VLAs are flocking towards the 350,787,77X.

Except for EK. But it does seem that the new large twins have severely blunted the appeal of both the A380 and the 748; they offer better CASM in a smaller airframe, which means less risk. Clearly the A380 has its place, but it is a very limited one. Since it is in production it will remain in production, but it would never be launched now.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:41 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 44):
But you don't see operators firming options for the most part of either the 748 or 380. But the same operators of these VLAs are flocking towards the 350,787,77X.

Rarely have I read a sentence which is so demonstrably glass half empty; but then, it is about the A380, so fair game on here it seems. :::shrugs:::

Rgds
Flying around India
 
neutronstar73
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:53 pm

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 13):
They take delivery because they contractually have to..... not because they want to. That is not a sign if they like the aircraft or not

Well, the did cancel their remaining options for the A380, so what does that mean? That they don't like the A380, either?

No, it doesn't. Just means to me that their business plan changed.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Lufthansa's VLA Choices Any Regrets

Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:39 am

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 48):
Just means to me that their business plan changed.

It has. Lufthansa will focus on fleet replacement instead of growth for the next coming years.
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