Round Dome Lighting In 707 Cabin But Not 727/737

doulasc · Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:33 am

The Boeing 707s with the original open hat racks and flush mounted PSUs had round dome lighting on the ceiling.
I noticed the Boeing 727s and Boeing 737s lacked the dome lighting.What was the reason behind that?

kanban · Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:28 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
What was the reason behind that?

technology improvements, customer input, engineering change for improved service. and a host of other reasons.. but primarily I remember them saying..' let's change this and see if anyone notices 50 years from now'

cedarjet · Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:35 am

I have a dome light and the ceiling panel it was set into from a 707-331-non-B, looking forward to moving to a place big enough where I can have it hanging from the ceiling.

That original design for the 707 was called the Penthouse interior (and, sans dome lights, also fitted to early 727s and even 737s) and the later interior with a lot more plastic recessed lighting and overhead bins (as opposed to hatracks) more commonly found on late-build 707s, most 727s and 737-200s, was called the Widebody interior.

(A naming practise that continues to this day - 767-300ERs with the 777 interior have what is known as the Signature interior - as seen aboard Shanghai Airlines and Uzbekistan Airways 767s, plus presumably recent ANA and LAN 767s, basically anything delivered in 2011 or later.)

malaysia · Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:16 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 2):
(A naming practise that continues to this day - 767-300ERs with the 777 interior have what is known as the Signature interior - as seen aboard Shanghai Airlines and Uzbekistan Airways 767s, plus presumably recent ANA and LAN 767s, basically anything delivered in 2011 or later.)

I saw AA do that but left economy in the old overhead config, yet first was in the 777 overhead... looked 1/2 retro

ha763 · Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:46 am

Maybe the 727 and 737 came with the kind of lighting found on this Saha Air 707 instead?

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Photo © Sam Chui

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 2):
767-300ERs with the 777 interior have what is known as the Signature interior - as seen aboard Shanghai Airlines and Uzbekistan Airways 767s, plus presumably recent ANA and LAN 767s, basically anything delivered in 2011 or later.

Just a note, the Boeing Signature Interior has been offered as an option on the 767-200ER and -300ER since 2000 and became the standard interior in 2001 or 2002.

Quoting malaysia (Reply 3):
I saw AA do that but left economy in the old overhead config, yet first was in the 777 overhead... looked 1/2 retro

Those were older 767s that were partially refurbished. The 9 767s AA ordered in 2001 and delivered in 2003, have the Signature Interior through out the entire aircraft.

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N707PA · Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:33 pm

727s, 737s and later 707s have the air conditioning supply duct running down the centerline of the ceiling. I have not seen any 707s with both the duct and the dome lights.

nomadic · Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:19 pm

IIRC TWA was behind the idea of the dome lights. They also featured a star pattern against a dark blue backgorund when the cabin was darkened at night.

kiwiandrew · Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:31 pm

Any pictures with the "dome" lights? I am trying to visualise them, but not succeeding. Thanks

jfklganyc · Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:39 pm

I cant believe there are still 707s like that in service (or in service until recently)

That is better than when the MTA pulls out the old subway cars at Christmastime!

N707PA · Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:00 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 7):
Any pictures with the "dome" lights?

Here is a couple of pictures, the second pic has the cover removed showing the blue night lights.

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Photo © Peter de Groot

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Photo © He Junxian

113312 · Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:50 pm

I seem to recall seeing those ceiling lights on the B707-458. At night, it made it appear as though you were looking through a skylight at the stars. Something like this is appearing in some newly delivered planes. Discuss!

kiwiandrew · Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:10 pm

N707PA thank you very much for the photo....I was visualising it completely wrong, so that was a big help

N707PA · Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:26 pm

Quoting 113312 (Reply 10):
I seem to recall seeing those ceiling lights on the B707-458. At night, it made it appear as though you were looking through a skylight at the stars.

I believe that the stars were actually cone shaped spot lights mounted on that inner disc. On that second pic, it appears that Pan Am did not take that option.

Airvan00 · Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:27 pm

Quoting nomadic (Reply 6):

IIRC TWA was behind the idea of the dome lights. They also featured a star pattern against a dark blue backgorund when the cabin was darkened at night.

Qantas had them as well.

awthompson · Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:50 pm

I have a childhood memory of a 'stars' feature somewhere on the ceiling panel of a British Airtours Boeing 707(-436?) in 1978 coming back from Gerona to London Gatwick. Anyone I have mentioned this to has told me I must have been dreaming, there was no such thing!

Its interesting now to know that this feature did actually exist. When seeing this type of thing on a Boeing 777 more recently, my first thought was, very nice but I've seen it before a generation ago.

I recall that there was an Air Traffic Control strike in France. We had had a delay of many hours at Gerona Airport. Then this Boeing 707 turned up for us. We were told that it was specially equipped and crewed to fly us home by routing firstly south west over Madrid, then west over Portugal and over the Atlantic Ocean hence avoiding French airspace completely. The flight lasted 4 hours as a result. On this flight, after feeding us the cabin lights were turned off and there was a depiction of stars on the dome.

This return trip in 1978 was my only occasion to fly on a Boeing 707.

DocLightning · Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:20 am

Quoting 113312 (Reply 10):
I seem to recall seeing those ceiling lights on the B707-458. At night, it made it appear as though you were looking through a skylight at the stars. Something like this is appearing in some newly delivered planes. Discuss!

I've looked for photos of this and can't find any. Do you happen to know of any? I'd like to see it. It seems like an advanced lighting scheme for those days.

Recently, Airbus has shown renderings of A350 cabins with projected stars on the ceiling. Presumably, the projectors will be mounted in the recesses above the luggage bins. They could also project other simulated skies, like blue with clouds, lightning (although I can't imagine why any airline would want to do something that even remotely suggests danger), or shooting stars.

In my private A350

I'm going to get projectors installed that make it look like we're in warp drive.

fanofjets · Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:59 am

Quoting ha763 (Reply 4):
Maybe the 727 and 737 came with the kind of lighting found on this Saha Air 707 instead?

The Saha Airlines Boeing 707s were an anomaly. The aircraft pictured, EP-SHU, was (is?) a late-build (1976) model 3J9 for the Imperial Iranian Air Force. The Penthouse interior in that plane was much older than the airframe itself and probably came from a junked Boeing 727. Hotel Uniform was a military aircraft; the Iranians refit the machine with a cabin for passenger use - a very retro Boeing one at that, to the delight of many of us airliner enthusiasts, especially superannuated (fancy for "over the hill") A-nutters like myself old enough to remember the big dome lights and how futuristic they seemed! Were the Saha Air 707s stock passenger aircraft, they would have had the 1970s Widebody cabins.

zippyjet · Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:01 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):

You said flush mounted PSU's? The 707's and first generation cabin 727 and 737's had the PSU pods suspemded from under the open shelf racks. I remember as a kid flying on an Eastern DC-8 (1963) and DL DC-8 (1966) both with the curtains, Palomar seats and I remember dome lights though more circular in shape. I miss them thought they were cool in a retro sort of way.

DarkSnowyNight · Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:13 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 2):
I have a dome light and the ceiling panel it was set into from a 707-331-non-B, looking forward to moving to a place big enough where I can have it hanging from the ceiling.

If you are who I think you are, I'm not at all surprised. Sounds awesome!

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 2):

That original design for the 707 was called the Penthouse interior (and, sans dome lights, also fitted to early 727s and even 737s) and the later interior with a lot more plastic recessed lighting and overhead bins (as opposed to hatracks) more commonly found on late-build 707s, most 727s and 737-200s, was called the Widebody interior

Indeed. A "selfie" from 1982 with these lights is the only confirmation that I did actually fly on one of these, as opposed to an early build 721 which that airline also had.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):

In my private A350 I'm going to get projectors installed that make it look like we're in warp drive.

That could actually work pretty well, since as a VIP, you're likely to delete the OHBs. Zoom.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):

Recently, Airbus has shown renderings of A350 cabins with projected stars on the ceiling. Presumably, the projectors will be mounted in the recesses above the luggage bins.

Word on Airbus Street is that the boxes that handle that will have access to the aircrafts navigational inputs, at least WRT INS. This means the stars shown will be actual constellations, etc, in their actual positions relative to the PAX POV. As well, that software should also have the ability to slightly exaggerate things like planets, nebulae, etc.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
They could also project other simulated skies, like blue with clouds, lightning (although I can't imagine why any airline would want to do something that even remotely suggests danger), or shooting stars.

Also not really sure why you'd want a lot of bright blue sky though. There's already a debate about whether to leave window blinds open as it is

Viscount724 · Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:23 pm

Quoting N707PA (Reply 9):
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 7):
Any pictures with the "dome" lights?

Here is a couple of pictures, the second pic has the cover removed showing the blue night lights.

Scroll almost to the bottom of this page from Jon Proctor's excellent site for 1963 cabin photos of AA 707-123B N7513A taken at SAN. For some reason I can't post the photos.
http://jonproctor.net/san-diego/

The same aircraft 14 years later, coincidentally also at SAN. Then in its last year of AA service.

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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.

By then the seating configuration looked like the following with much smaller F class cabin (14 seats instead of the original 32) and the F class lounge replaced with seats.

AA modified their 707s (and 727s) with the Boeing "wide-body" look interior some years earlier, with the hatracks replaced with small overhead bins, and new wall/ceiling panels etc., as in photos below. Those bins didn't hold much but that interior made the cabin seem much more spacious. I believe AA was the only major U.S. carrier that did that modification on 707s. TWA and Pan Am never did. Not sure about NW.

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Photo © Ellis M. Chernoff

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Photo © Stefan Ottosson

doulasc · Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:27 am

In the 1970s most US airlines Boeing 727s had the wide body look cabin,Delta(I don't know about their ex-Northeast
727-100s),Eastern,Braniff,Western and Continental's..and American's. I don't know about TWA,National,Northwest Orient .
I guessing Pan Am's 727-21s had the original hat rack cabin through out their career.

DL_Mech · Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:22 am

Quoting doulasc (Reply 20):
I don't know about TWA,National,Northwest Orient .

TWA's -100s and -200s had the Heath Tecna Spacemaker widebody cabins installed in the late 70s/early 80s.

Not sure about NW, but I did work on an ex-NW -251 flying for KIWI that still had the 707 style interior with the bin doors over the overhead racks

[Edited 2014-04-07 04:28:42]

washingtonflyer · Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:20 pm

What is the seat pitch on one of those 707 seat maps?

global2 · Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:28 am

I can just barely remember flying on Pan Am 707's in the very late 60's and last in 1971 to Tokyo. I noticed that the ceiling color had change to white when they used to be sky blue. My last 707 flight was in 1980 on BWIA (with a much more colorful interior). I loved the dome lights, and the back-lit valances above the windows which had a speckled "star" pattern.
The dome lights gave off a warm glow (I believe incandescent bulbs were behind them), not the sterile flourescent lighting that predominated later.

And coach had 3 lavs!

milesrich · Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:08 am

The new look Boeing narrow body interiors first came out on the Advanced 727-200, and were ordered by and promoted by Braniff. While all the other trunk carriers were introducing Tri Jet Wide Bodies, Braniff was not, so they had a narrow body interior designed to to resemble the wide body aircraft that included over head compartments rather than the open coat racks. United never had any narrow bodies with these small overheads but installed the larger ones similar to the DC-10 overheads. After Braniff announced plans to equip their 727s with this new interior, American followed suit and after that all new aircraft came with over head bins. The 707 was out of production for commercial orders then except a few ships for China. American then, to compete with Braniff, reconfigured their 707's installing the pictured bins, but also making the middle seats able to fold into a table. The Domestic 707s on AA and TW along with UA's DC-8-20/30/50s had 36 inches of pitch in coach. The seats were not wide, but there was plenty of leg room.

Braniff called theirs, 727 Braniff Place.

On another note, I don't think all of the 720s had the oval dome lights. I remember distinctly that United's 720-022s did not have them. I don't remember them on Western, Northwest or Continental either. Perhaps some of the carriers did have them on their 720s, but I don't recall them. I only flew on Eastern's 720s once or twice. Braniff's 720s may have had them. I never flew on a Pan Am or Lufthansa, Olympic, El Al, or Aer Lingus 720.

[Edited 2014-04-08 00:13:35]

Viscount724 · Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:29 am

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 22):
What is the seat pitch on one of those 707 seat maps?

Probably still 34 inches in Y class then.

zippyjet · Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:27 am

At least the last 707 flown by TWA still had the early swinging 60's interior with the pods and hat racks. The DL and Eastern 727's had the wide body style 70's interior.

milesrich · Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:38 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 22):
What is the seat pitch on one of those 707 seat maps?

Probably still 34 inches in Y class then.

I think AA had 36 inches in Y. I know UA had 36 inches in Y on the standard DC-8's (-20's and -50's)

WA707atMSP · Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:27 pm

The dome lights were used less often in the 1970s, but on TWA's last revenue 707 flight (JFK-ORD-MCI, in Oct 1983), Jon Proctor turned them on one last time. Many of the TWA employees on board the flight had tears in their eyes when they came on.

superjeff · Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:36 pm

Quoting nomadic (Reply 6):
IIRC TWA was behind the idea of the dome lights. They also featured a star pattern against a dark blue backgorund when the cabin was darkened at night.

I remember well TWA's "StarStream 707's" which did have the dome lights. Very soothing on a red-eye. Pan Am also had them. First time I flew, I thought it was actually some kind of camera outside

superjeff · Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:41 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 22):
What is the seat pitch on one of those 707 seat maps?

Standard IATA configuration back then was 38" in F, 34" in Y.

ClassicLover · Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:55 pm

Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 13):
Qantas had them as well.

This web page - from an awesome web site about the Qantas 707s...

http://www.adastron.com/707/qantas/707-138-cabin.htm

... shows both colour pictures of the original Qantas interior as delivered in 1959, plus a drawing of what displayed on the dome light. It also has some details about the dome light and where it was located on the Qantas 707.

Hope you like it!

hiflyeras · Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:00 pm

Thanks everyone! I'm loving this thread....sure does take me back. I don't recall ever seeing the dome lights, especially with the 'stars' at night but sounds wonderful! When I started my flying career we still had the 'hat racks' and I remember prior to take-off having to 'feel around' up there to make sure no one had snuck their carry-on bag above their seat. Hats and coats, pillows and blankets....that was it!

Flaps · Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:20 pm

My last TW 707 flight in 81 still had the dome lights and the original hat racks and psu's. This was pretty close to the end of the 707's career at TW. Given that late stage in its career and the fact that it had newer seats along with the older sidewalls and ceiling lead me to believe that TW did not do the "widebody" look upgrade. This was an all economy version though so maybe it was just a unique aircraft.

TW870 · Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting Flaps (Reply 33):
This was an all economy version though so maybe it was just a unique aircraft.

No it was not unique. Although AA gave the 707-123Bs (and maybe the -300s too?) the widebody interior, TW didn't put it on any aircraft. TW was basically always cash strapped, and always had trouble funding capital projects. What money they had they put into a very sharp series of Ambassador Service updates, and into food and crew uniforms.

If you were on an all-economy aircraft, I believe you would have been on a -331B (or C?). I think the -131Bs and the -331 non-fans were always 2-class. All 3 types served until late 1979, when the final non-fan -331s were withdrawn from use.

musang · Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:38 am

I flew on Korean's HL7403 in 1976 which I'm pretty sure had the dome lights. Therefore Eastern would have done.

Regards - musang

Ty134A · Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:30 pm

Now that is the lighting I know of Saha Air, from my flight a few days before final retirement of the B707:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnLKmYMcjWk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVkNuFqbKmc

I'd rather have that one over the new "mood lighting" - I guess style is something you can't invent, it just happens!

Viscount724 · Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:57 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 30):
Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 22):
What is the seat pitch on one of those 707 seat maps?

Standard IATA configuration back then was 38" in F, 34" in Y.

If memory correct, F class maximum pitch was 42" under IATA conditions of service resolutions in effect then. Maximum in Y was 34". U.S. carriers with no international routes (other than Canada where IATA standards didn't apply) could get away with whatever they wanted to do in Y. TWA and Pan Am were certainly limited to 34" in Y on their international routes.

CF-CPI · Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:33 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
F class maximum pitch was 42" under IATA conditions of service resolutions in effect then

I know that the DC-8 windows were spaced 40" apart, and two Boeing windows are 38", so I believe, as superjeff suggested, most F class from this era was in the 38"- 40" range. I'd be curious as to what airlines may have maxed out at the 42" pitch to give F more legroom. There may have been limitations impose by the drop down trays of the day - getting them close enough to the passengers so they can eat comfortably. In-armrest trays are no problem. CO, FYI, had 41" in their original (1970) 747s.

FYI, beginning with the A300, Airbus spaced two windows at almost 42" (including narrowbodies) , and Boeing followed suit starting with the 767/777 and I suspect 787.

zippyjet · Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:39 am

The Three (3) Eastern 720 flights had the dome lights. I remember though I was a kid, my mom commented on how pretty they were.

MrFord · Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
AA modified their 707s (and 727s) with the Boeing "wide-body" look interior some years earlier, with the hatracks replaced with small overhead bins, and new wall/ceiling panels etc., as in photos below. Those bins didn't hold much but that interior made the cabin seem much more spacious. I believe AA was the only major U.S. carrier that did that modification on 707s. TWA and Pan Am never did. Not sure about NW.

These are the same overhead bins still in use in the 2 737 Combis we charter for the mine's fly-in/fly-out operations. Very small indeed compared to more recent ones!
These planes are regularly converted between full freighters, combi 36, 60, 76 or full 112 passengers config. But in that case, all the bins, windows and side panels stay right there; all that is removed is the carpet/floor and the seats, and the bulkhead is moved to the appropriate position. Very different from a full cargo plane.

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