point2point
Posts: 2093
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

RE: Spirit Set To Transfer Most FLL Service To MIA

Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:25 am

Quoting AADFWFlyer (Reply 98):
Agreed - this will not affect AA/US very much at all - as NK goes for different type of passenger. In DFW, not as much of a blink has been made by AA to the NK flights - so why expect any different with NK in MIA? Answer, no reason for anything different.

Even though NK does have a different type of pax, they still might be able to poach some from AA at MIA. There are a number of routes that AA has all to itself there at MIA (BOS, BWI, MSY, DFW, LAS, LAX, SAN that currently have NK there) where, depending on the frequencies that NK would offer with these, could possibly cause AA to lower their fares some with such situation. Then again, if NK only goes a frequency per day with these, then there's really no need for AA to do anything.

As in DFW, if NK does a frequency per day to all of the destinations (or even two) then AA probably isn't going to blink too much.

 
 
AADFWFlyer
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:52 pm

RE: Spirit Set To Transfer Most FLL Service To MIA

Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:07 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 100):

I am in agreement with you, and think AA, like other airlines - will keep an eye on the competition and adjust accordingly. As living in Dallas and fly out of DFW - the once/twice day flights that NK does to AA destinations, does not cause AA to blink too much.

Now, if AA would start back DFW-OAK - we'll see what happens!

Good stuff - will be interesting to see what happens in MIA as well!
 
EricR
Posts: 1226
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:15 pm

RE: Spirit Set To Transfer Most FLL Service To MIA

Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:57 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 31):

I think the experience at DFW is instructive: it seems that in many cases, AA and Spirit have actually managed to coexist, as they seem to bifurcate the market pretty cleanly in going after two pretty distinctly different sets of travelers.

Frankly, at least in the case of DFW, it seems as if Spirit may actually be helping AA to some extent - soaking up some of the latent, cost-conscious demand that (a) AA doesn't really want to cater to, but that (b) a potential new or smaller entrant would want to. By soaking up this demand, Spirit is able to skim just enough traffic to render the market somewhat unattractive for major growth by other low-cost competitors that actually would be scarier to AA. Put another way: with AA taking the top end and Spirit taking the bottom end of the market, it squeezes any potential entrant in the middle who would have a higher probability of putting a dent in AA's business.

I am not so sure about that. I would have bought that line several years ago, but now they are starting to make some in roads. One passenger here, one passenger there, and over the course of time it adds up. NK has been entering into established legacy fortress hubs with ease (MSP, DFW, DTW, ORD, and now MIA). While the common line is that they are just skimming off the lower fare passengers, it has become clear that regardless of how bad of an airline they are in terms of customer satisfaction, people come back to NK and that they are growing fast. NK has been very cautious on how it expands as to not attract too much attention to itself, but their goal is clear and their expansion of DFW (they now control the entire satellite terminal and are expanding) is noteworthy.

I'm sure AA wasn't too concerned with B6 when they began service out of JFK and BOS, but slowly over the course of time, B6 started taking away share to the point where they have become the largest carrier out of both markets. In addition, AA used to have a monopoly on many JFK-Caribbean routes before B6 entered the picture. AA is now a fraction of the size it used to be on JFK-Caribbean and B6 now dominates many of these routes.

NK may never become the preferred carrier of the business traveler, but if they steal enough domestic feed, it will start to impact AA over the course of time (just like B6 at JFK). NK will easily be able to steal a lot of the price sensitive passengers who originate in Central and South America who used to rely on AA. This will reduce feed on AA flights. While many people say these are low fare passengers that AA doesn't want, the truth is they need a portion of those travelers to fill the back of the bus. Now to fill the back of the bus, AA will need to drop fares.
 
ROSWELL41
Posts: 777
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2001 3:50 am

RE: Spirit Set To Transfer Most FLL Service To MIA

Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:56 am

A lot of rumors that the addition of MIA to the route network may be the precursor to widebody flying at NK.
 
santi319
Posts: 866
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

RE: Spirit Set To Transfer Most FLL Service To MIA

Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:16 am

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 103):

A lot of rumors that the addition of MIA to the route network may be the precursor to widebody flying at NK.


It makes sense, NK was first to charge for bags, charge for seats, snacks etc. It sure would be the first Long haul LCC if there was to be one in the US.
 
flyboynk
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:57 pm

RE: Spirit Set To Transfer Most FLL Service To MIA

Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:39 am

Quoting santi319 (Reply 104):
Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 103):

A lot of rumors that the addition of MIA to the route network may be the precursor to widebody flying at NK.


It makes sense, NK was first to charge for bags, charge for seats, snacks etc. It sure would be the first Long haul LCC if there was to be one in the US.
Quoting santi319 (Reply 104):
Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 103):

A lot of rumors that the addition of MIA to the route network may be the precursor to widebody flying at NK.


It makes sense, NK was first to charge for bags, charge for seats, snacks etc. It sure would be the first Long haul LCC if there was to be one in the US.

If NK decides to acquire widebody aircraft more than likely it will consider the following options 1) A330-200 2) A330-300 3) A350-900 4) B787

The max seating configurations for the A330-200 = 406, A330-300 = 440, A350-900 = 475 and B787 = 381

Also the A330's offer a lower-deck lav option that helps maximize main deck floor space for all those seats, NK could in theory have 1 or 2 main level lavs ( 1 minimum for pax with disabilities ) then place up to 6 lavs below the main deck.

I wonder what type of CASM (fuel/ex-fuel) NK would have with an A330-200 with 406 pax...assuming the A330-200 has the lowest casm of the above mentioned aircraft and how does that compare to today's A319, A320 and A321's in NK fleet. Also will the order of NEO's (A320 and A321) have any influence on future widebody acquisitions...
Flyboynk
 
AADFWFlyer
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:52 pm

RE: Spirit Set To Transfer Most FLL Service To MIA

Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:13 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 102):

Perfect points on AA's history in JFK and BOS in relation to B6 - hopefully someone in the 'new' AA management will have learned from the past, and will keep AA competitive to the market, and adjust accordingly. Seemingly done so in the DFW market, albeit still waiting for some of the other changes that may occur/flight frequencies upon completion of combination of AA/US here, other than the normal US cities from DFW - PHX, PHL, etc.

And for AA and MIA with respect to NK - referring to my statement above, hope someone in HQ is keeping tabs on the market, regardless of whether MIA is a big hub for AA or not, competition is competition - as I expect and would like to see AA be more aggressive in going after market share where it makes business sense, and not let competitors whittle away at the bottom line.

As the merger approval and actions resulting from such is still a bit infant, will be interesting to see what is in store for the combined AA/US model, and what the competitors will be thinking / worried about - interesting times!
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Spirit Set To Transfer Most FLL Service To MIA

Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:35 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 102):
I would have bought that line several years ago, but now they are starting to make some in roads. One passenger here, one passenger there, and over the course of time it adds up.

Inroads into what? Has Spirit had any material impact on the growth of AA at DFW? If so, I haven't seen it. Or AA or United at ORD? Or Delta at MSP or DTW? All of those are large network hubs, and all also have a presence from Spirit that is large and/or has been growing in recent years, and yet the net effect on those network carriers' hubs appears to be - essentially - nothing. I'd be very curious to see evidence otherwise.

Quoting EricR (Reply 102):
While the common line is that they are just skimming off the lower fare passengers, it has become clear that regardless of how bad of an airline they are in terms of customer satisfaction, people come back to NK and that they are growing fast.

But that's a logical fallacy. Spirit may have people complain them and yet come back, but they may also simultaneously be stimulating primarily lower-fare/price-sensitive travelers rather than stealing from network carriers. Indeed, I think that's exactly what's happening - it's not an either/or, it's a both. And that's also exactly why I do not think Spirit poses all that serious a threat to AA or the other network carriers - I have yet to see any evidence to debunk my theory, and the theory of many others, that they fundamentally target different customers.

In the case of DFW, you can see it in the pricing of market after market where Spirit competes directly with AA and/or another network carrier: even close-in, the fare disparity between the two is notable - in some cases literally an order of magnitude.

Quoting EricR (Reply 102):
I'm sure AA wasn't too concerned with B6 when they began service out of JFK and BOS, but slowly over the course of time, B6 started taking away share to the point where they have become the largest carrier out of both markets.
Quoting EricR (Reply 102):
NK may never become the preferred carrier of the business traveler, but if they steal enough domestic feed, it will start to impact AA over the course of time (just like B6 at JFK).

But that's a completely non-representative comparison for two big reasons. First, JFK (and NYC in general) was not ever a fortress hub for AA - or any other airline - in the way that DFW or MIA is for AA, or ATL or DTW or MSP is for Delta, etc. Second, Spirit is not JetBlue. Unlike Spirit, JetBlue actually is clearly going after precisely the same general set of customers as the network carriers. Their customer sets do in large part overlap, as evidenced by what massive inroads JetBlue actually has made in traditional network-dominated markets (NYC, BOS) and the pricing impact JetBlue has had on the network carriers in competing markets, if not completely driving them out.

In the case of Spirit, at least at DFW, anecdotal: again, AA appears more than capable of supporting fares that are, in some cases, drastically higher than what Spirit prices, and both seem to have no trouble filling planes at such fares.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos