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SA7700
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:38 am

Some members may not be aware of the fact that all members have an edit window of 60 minutes, from the time you first make a post in which to add or remove any additional comments or information into/from the post. Please make use of this feature made available to you, for your own convenience, instead of posting one post after another (doubles, triples or more).

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Due to length part 52 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 53:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 37 (by SA7700 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 38 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 40 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43 (by SA7700 Mar 22 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44 (by SA7700 Mar 23 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47 (by SA7700 Mar 27 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 29 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 31 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50 (by wilco737 Apr 2 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 51 (by wilco737 Apr 6 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 52 (by SA7700 Apr 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)


**********************************************************************************************

**********************************************************************************************


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penguins
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:55 am

My theory is that the after one of the pilots left the cockpit, the other turned off oxygen, killing everyone except himself (pilots have extra oxygen) and landed the plane in the ocean. If it was a good landing, minimal debris would be found. I suspect a suicide.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:56 am

From last thread, regarding LandSweetLand's question on bathymetry in the search area:

God I just spent like 30 minutes trying to figure this out, but I swear bathymetry data is specifically designed to be undecipherable unless you work in GIS and have the software to work with something better than rasters. This might help: http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/image/2minrelief.html But the legend is pretty ambiguous at those depths. NOAA has a *lot* of datasets you can download if you have GIS software. Otherwise I'd eyeball that "mountain" or ridge to be about 500-1500m deep? Sorry...

edit: Here's a freakin' huge map with a better legend. http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/global/...ETOPO1_atlantic_centered_36x56.pdf
You could probably get some good data from this with as simple a tool as Photoshop, sample a point on the map and replace that colour in the entire raster, should reveal a line in the legend. Wish I could ingest the actual datasets and look through them properly.

[Edited 2014-04-09 20:35:13]
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
panampaul
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:01 am

Quoting penguins (Reply 1):
My theory is that the after one of the pilots left the cockpit, the other turned off oxygen, killing everyone except himself (pilots have extra oxygen) and landed the plane in the ocean. If it was a good landing, minimal debris would be found. I suspect a suicide.

That is not a suicide. That is mass murder.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:14 am

Quoting penguins (Reply 1):
My theory is that the after one of the pilots left the cockpit, the other turned off oxygen, killing everyone except himself (pilots have extra oxygen) and landed the plane in the ocean. If it was a good landing, minimal debris would be found. I suspect a suicide.

I feel something similar happened. The information we have about recent events in the life of the Captain leads me to think that if this is what happened it would more likely be the Captain.

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 3):
That is not a suicide. That is mass murder.

Agreed. The outcome would be suicide / mass murder but mass murder might not have been the original intention. Who knows what is going through the mind of somebody on a suicide mission...

Does the passenger list the crew has show the nationalities of the pax? Would the crew know the breakdown of nationalities?

[Edited 2014-04-09 20:20:12]
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
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ssteve
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:23 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 4):
It's a helipad.

Diving board for the bold.

I actually hadn't seen any good photos:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADV_Ocean_Shield

Interesting profile.
 
coolian2
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:35 am

Quoting penguins (Reply 1):
My theory is that the after one of the pilots left the cockpit, the other turned off oxygen, killing everyone except himself (pilots have extra oxygen) and landed the plane in the ocean. If it was a good landing, minimal debris would be found. I suspect a suicide.

my issue with this is don't flight attendants also have this kind of oxygen access?

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 7):
Interesting profile.

it's a hell of a sight up close in person.
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:45 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 8):
my issue with this is don't flight attendants also have this kind of oxygen access?

They would have access to portable oxygen bottles (POBs). Data I find on their capacity is ambiguous. Apparently they can be set to LO mode for decompression and would last 60-120min at 2L/min depending on the size of the bottle, or HI mode for first aid ('therapeutic') and would last 30-60min at 4L/min depending on the size of the bottle. I don't know what the accident aircraft had on board - but they definitely would have some.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:45 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 8):

my issue with this is don't flight attendants also have this kind of oxygen access?

The cabin crew has crew member oxygen stations with long lasting bottled oxygen supplies and masks. They also have portable oxygen bottles available if they need to move around.

There is also oxygen in the crew rest areas.

Lots of info here on the emergency equipment on board a 777:

http://www.smartcockpit.com/download...eneral_and_Emergency_Equipment.pdf
 
flood
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:51 am

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 7):
I actually hadn't seen any good photos:


A nice recent one:



via http://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/454076405849264128/photo/1
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:56 am

That lower outer deck (clearly my marine jargon is first class -_-) looks like it's intended to be submersed. Is it? I've seen ships look like that when they're meant to carry marine equipment or other ships.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
tapir
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:09 am

Just in. And I do not know what to say.

"The spokesperson adds that it only provides information upon request and Malaysia has not requested for data from US satellite located in Pine Gap, Australia.
"
 
denverdanny
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:18 am

Quoting penguins (Reply 1):
My theory is that the after one of the pilots left the cockpit, the other turned off oxygen, killing everyone except himself (pilots have extra oxygen) and landed the plane in the ocean. If it was a good landing, minimal debris would be found. I suspect a suicide.

Why do we need this theory? Are you trying to soften the concept of death, hoping that maybe they died somewhat peacefully? Are you trying to explain why we didn't hear from the people on the plane? People keep saying, "Well they would have made phone calls!" It was 1:30 ish in the morning, and looking out a window, you may not have been able to tell where you were going. They were only over land for a short period of time, so I don't think we should have expected cell phone calls when most people on a plane have no clue what's outside it.
 
Skydrol
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:44 am

Quoting denverdanny (Reply 12):
Quoting penguins (Reply 1):My theory is that the after one of the pilots left the cockpit, the other turned off oxygen, killing everyone except himself (pilots have extra oxygen) and landed the plane in the ocean. If it was a good landing, minimal debris would be found. I suspect a suicide.
Why do we need this theory? Are you trying to soften the concept of death, hoping that maybe they died somewhat peacefully?

Hypoxia is not necessarily peaceful. Some people will go berserk with low oxygen. Also the terror of choking, and witnessing others experiencing the same would not be a serene situation. Fear, terror and death; this was almost certainly a slaughter flight - with someone aboard responsible.




LD4
∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:50 am

Quoting Tapir (Reply 11):
"The spokesperson adds that it only provides information upon request and Malaysia has not requested for data from US satellite located in Pine Gap, Australia.

Umm what an odd thing to say.

Just amazing the way that "co-operation" works.
 
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Aesma
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:09 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 10):
That lower outer deck (clearly my marine jargon is first class -_-) looks like it's intended to be submersed. Is it? I've seen ships look like that when they're meant to carry marine equipment or other ships.

No, it's just an empty area that can be used to transport things, to go along with the big crane.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
aviators99
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:12 am

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 13):
Hypoxia is not necessarily peaceful. Some people will go berserk with low oxygen. Also the terror of choking, and witnessing others experiencing the same would not be a serene situation.

Choking causes hypoxia, but hypoxia does not cause choking. I haven't heard of people going berserk from hypoxia.
 
MSY-MSP
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:13 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 10):
That lower outer deck (clearly my marine jargon is first class -_-) looks like it's intended to be submersed. Is it? I've seen ships look like that when they're meant to carry marine equipment or other ships.

Not sure what you mean by the lower outer deck. If you are referring to the portion of the vessel on the left that is slightly out of the water, that is a bulbous bow. The purpose of it is to increase buoyancy and reduce friction at the air/water interface, thereby increasing the efficiency of the vessel. Most large ocean going vessels have this feature. However, most of the time it is below the waterline and thus hidden from view. it creates a lot of drag in the position shown in the photo.

The aft portion is not designed to go under water, but to serve as a platform for the other activities that are going on board. I don't know what her primary mission is but it seems to me that she is primarily designed for oil/gas exploration with a forward helo pad and an aft working platform. From the looks of things I do not think she has a moon pool.
 
CBRboy
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:30 am

Ocean Shield was built as an offshore support vessel - in other words to assist with oil and gas rigs and other offshore installations. The ship was bought for the Australian Navy and is operated as a civilian-crewed humanitarian and disaster relief vessel.

[Edit - addition] Click on the link or check Wikipedia for further info.

[Edited 2014-04-09 22:33:04]
 
LandSweetLand
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:47 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 2):
edit: Here's a freakin' huge map with a better legend. http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/global/...ETOPO1_atlantic_centered_36x56.pdf
You could probably get some good data from this with as simple a tool as Photoshop, sample a point on the map and replace that colour in the entire raster, should reveal a line in the legend. Wish I could ingest the actual datasets and look through them properly.

Thanks for that. I'll have a look when I get home.
 
tapir
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:02 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 14):
Umm what an odd thing to say.

Just amazing the way that "co-operation" works.

Maybe that explains why they withdrew USS Kidd from wasting time looking further up near Andaman.
 
AR385
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:10 am

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 13):
Also the terror of choking, and witnessing others experiencing the same would not be a serene situation. Fear, terror and death; this was almost certainly a slaughter flight - with someone aboard responsible.

No. You don´t choke. Hypoxia produces euphoria and confusion in its initial stages. Then you just go to sleep, essentially. You don´t have a feeling of asphyxia, drowning or choking. Why do you think there are so many alarms in the cockpit? and why do you think crews are so thoroughly trained on it?

You just don´t feel it.

Besides, how much fear, and terror can there be in the 6 seconds it would take for people to loose consciousness at FL 350? Movies and TV do not represent real life.

I don´t know about civil pilots, but military pilots get into a chamber and are actually induced into hypoxia. Google the videos. It´s rather very interesting, and sobering.

**I remain in my position of many threads ago of not subscribing to any theory on this occurrence whatsoever.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:14 am

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 13):

Quoting denverdanny (Reply 12):
Quoting penguins (Reply 1):My theory is that the after one of the pilots left the cockpit, the other turned off oxygen, killing everyone except himself (pilots have extra oxygen) and landed the plane in the ocean. If it was a good landing, minimal debris would be found. I suspect a suicide.
Why do we need this theory? Are you trying to soften the concept of death, hoping that maybe they died somewhat peacefully?

Hypoxia is not necessarily peaceful. Some people will go berserk with low oxygen. Also the terror of choking, and witnessing others experiencing the same would not be a serene situation. Fear, terror and death; this was almost certainly a slaughter flight - with someone aboard responsible.

The trick, if you will, would be to slowly depressurize. No need to just slam open the outflow valves. Make everyone slowly less alert, drowsy, then finally unconscious.

Berserking is not a symptom of hypoxia, and as aviators99 says choking would not be in the picture.

Quoting penguins (Reply 1):
My theory is that the after one of the pilots left the cockpit, the other turned off oxygen, killing everyone except himself (pilots have extra oxygen) and landed the plane in the ocean. If it was a good landing, minimal debris would be found. I suspect a suicide.

First of all, we've heard this about a thousand times. There's no point repeating an already stated point of view unless you have a new angle or new data.

Secondly, outside of emergencies, airliner occupants don't use oxygen. They use air, part of which is oxygen.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Julian773
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:15 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 22):

My question is, if penguins theory about a pilot suicide is true(which is still
speculation of course) , how would investigators figure out which one it was
with CVR data overwritten?
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:26 am

Quoting Julian773 (Reply 23):
My question is, if penguins theory about a pilot suicide is true(which is still
speculation of course) , how would investigators figure out which one it was
with CVR data overwritten?

They would need to search for forensic evidence: where the pilot bodies were located, had the plane suffered depressurization, is any of the systems tampered with etc. If the plane has crashed with a high speed, collecting the forensic evidence will undoubtedly be difficult.
 
vr-hkg
Posts: 230
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:32 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 2):
edit: Here's a freakin' huge map with a better legend. http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/global/...ETOPO1_atlantic_centered_36x56.pdf
You could probably get some good data from this with as simple a tool as Photoshop, sample a point on the map and replace that colour in the entire raster, should reveal a line in the legend. Wish I could ingest the actual datasets and look through them properly.

I just tried exactly this, although it's near-impossible to get the maps to line up due to different projections, and so I had to guesstimate where the search zone is. Where I put it turns out to be about 4,200 meters. And that's partly on the mount; the highest part of the mount seems to be at a depth of about 1,100 meters, and the sea around at 6,000 meters.

But this is all complicated by the fact that, although it has a depth scale, that NOAA map is also relief-shaded. (Note how ridges have a dark, shadowed side and a light side -- that's not an actual reflection of the depth scale.

Which is all to say that these numbers are probably meaningless.
 
AR385
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:32 am

Several threads ago, and through many, we established why cell phones did not work on board. Why it was impossible to make or receive a call on cell phones.

I don´t remember reading anything here about Satellite Cell Phones. I´m sure someone on board ought to have had one, given KUL being an oil hub and the type of executives taking this flight.

1. Do Satellite Cell Phones work the same as cell phones and is that a reason no one used them?

If no (and I don´t know) then I can only imagine that whatever event took place had to be very sudden for nobody to use a Sat-Phone.
 
vr-hkg
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:40 am

Responding to myself, I just tried Google Earth instead. I have no idea of the accuracy of its data, but it says the mount is called the Wallaby Plateau, and seems to indicate the shallowest point as around 2,000 meters deep, and the surrounding ocean at 4,600 to 6,100 meters. The point that seems to be indicated on the maps as the sonobuoy search area is around 3,000 meters.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:41 am

I got a PM (which could have gone in the thread) about choking sensation being induced by CO2 buildup. The thing to remember is that the cabin is supplied with air, not oxygen. Lower total pressure does not change the proportions of the various gases, so there would be no higher CO2 content in proportion.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 21):
Besides, how much fear, and terror can there be in the 6 seconds it would take for people to loose consciousness at FL 350? Movies and TV do not represent real life.

Time of Useful Consciousness for a sudden decompressoin at FL350 is more like 30-60 seconds and given the rather spectacular side effects such as the whole cabin filling with mist, people would have time to be very afraid.

Again, in a hypothetical deliberate decompression, depressurizing the aircraft slowly might decrease the risk of a passenger or crew member figuring out what is going on. Not that it really matters for the end result.

[Edited 2014-04-10 01:21:20]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
NAV30
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:54 am

Early on I was thinking in terms of decompression happening early in the flight, killing everyone on board - after which the autopilot (on the 'last ordered course' principle) continued to fly the aeroplane pretty well due south, until it ran out of fuel and crashed.

I shut up about that because, although the passengers would be very vulnerable to a sudden decompression, recent posts have indicated that the pilots and cabin crew have ready access to emergency oxygen. Meaning that, even if there was a decompression, they'd be OK for at least an hour or two.

Bur now I find myself reading stuff like:-

Quoting AR385 (Reply 21):
Besides, how much fear, and terror can there be in the 6 seconds it would take for people to loose consciousness at FL 350? Movies and TV do not represent real life.

If that's so, it appears more than possible that everyone on board passed out within seconds - including the pilots and cabin staff? Especially since there is a suggestion that the aeroplane went as high as 45,000 feet, even further reducing the few seconds available to get the masks on?

Just posted in the hope that better-informed people will determine whether the 'all dead early on' theory may still 'have legs'?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:26 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 29):
Early on I was thinking in terms of decompression happening early in the flight, killing everyone on board - after which the autopilot (on the 'last ordered course' principle) continued to fly the aeroplane pretty well due south, until it ran out of fuel and crashed.

I shut up about that because, although the passengers would be very vulnerable to a sudden decompression, recent posts have indicated that the pilots and cabin crew have ready access to emergency oxygen. Meaning that, even if there was a decompression, they'd be OK for at least an hour or two.

This is why for the deliberate decompression scenario I think very slow decompression would be much more logical. No loud bangs and mist, just a slow decrease and eventually everyone is asleep (and every toiletry bottle on the plane is leaking.)

I don't buy non-deliberate decompression given later maneuvers, but I suppose we could construct a scenario with that as well.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 29):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 21):
Besides, how much fear, and terror can there be in the 6 seconds it would take for people to loose consciousness at FL 350? Movies and TV do not represent real life.

If that's so, it appears more than possible that everyone on board passed out within seconds - including the pilots and cabin staff? Especially since there is a suggestion that the aeroplane went as high as 45,000 feet, even further reducing the few seconds available to get the masks on?

As mentioned above, Time of Useful Consciousness at 35000 is 30-60 seconds. Ample time to put on masks. At 45000 feet, on the other hand, TOC is 9-15 seconds. Then again over 40000 feet or so most countries have extra regulations in place in order to decrease the risk in case of decompression, e.g. if one pilot leaves the cockpit the other must wear his oxygen mask.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:32 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 30):
This is why for the deliberate decompression scenario I think very slow decompression would be much more logical. No loud bangs and mist, just a slow decrease and eventually everyone is asleep (and every toiletry bottle on the plane is leaking.)

Passenger oxygen masks will automatically deploy when the cabin altitude reaches 14,000 ft. That cannot be circumvented by any means.
 
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p51tang
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:51 am

Angus Houston just announced that two signals were 'held' for about 5 minutes and 7 minutes respectively. As a result, he provided some 'good' news - that the area to be searched is now reduced to 75,000 sq. kilometres.........

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 49):
His flight path also explains a lot

1. Fly to "roaring 40s" so SAR would be difficult

2. Run out all fuel so minimize chance of explosion or oil slick

3. Gradually land into ocean then let it sink to minimize floatable objects

Quote:
Nav30 - jetblue1965 the captain was a distinguished professional with a perfect record. Even if he'd decided to kill himself, why on earth would he organise things so that he not only killed 238 other people, but also ensured that their bodies would probably never be found?

Surely all he had to do, if bent on suicide, was go into the bathroom the evening before, and get his razor out?



Hi Nav30.I found an article that may answer your question regarding planned vs unplanned suicide.

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~nock/noc...0et%20al_2013_JAMA_Psychiatry1.pdf

In particular Table 3: I noted that those respondents from aforesaid survey with anger ideology, were almost twice as likely to plan a specific event, than those who chose not to.

Quote:
Lizzie reply 112 thread 52: Suicides are sometimes very well planned, even when they are not also attempts at mass murder. In the psychiatric literature, a distinction is often made between unplanned (or impulsive) suicides and planned suicides. Planned attempts, not surprisingly, tend to be more lethal than unplanned attempts, and some evidence suggests they are associated with older, better educated people with higher scores on "self-directedness".

I cannot argue with your post.  Wink

[Edited 2014-04-10 02:27:49]
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:46 am

There is no clear evidence for the predictors of planned vs unplanned suicide, although planned suicides, as well as being more often lethal, not surprisingly, are associated (statistically) with older mean age, and higher education (also more "Self-Directedness", a personality trait that measures, essentially, ability to get stuff done).

Planning seems most often to be done to ensure success (e.g. using two methods so that at least one is likely to work, also called "planned complex suicide"), and also, sometimes, to reduce harm to survivors (e.g. ensure life insurance, or spare relatives the horror of finding the body).

Murder-suicides are different, obviously, but if this was a planned murder-suicide, it is unlike any others I know of. Terrorists generally want to make a statement - and no-one has claimed this one. And there isn't a lot of evidence for much planning in the pilot murder-suicides we know of (Egypt air, for example) - certainly nothing like would have to be assumed about this case, if it were suicide.

And while of the two pilots, the captain seems to be the one with the skills and possibly even the political will to carry this out (as a way of shaming the Malaysian government? - it's certainly succeeded) his apparent admiration for Richard Dawkins doesn't fit with that at all. Nor with anything else that has emerged about him. Suicide possibly - planned murderous suicide, not so much.

So as a suicide, it really isn't typical of anything I've come across.

I do think the flight path looks intelligent but with computer-guided systems, that doesn't necessarily mean intentional. And the satellite Doppler data does looks as though one, or possibly two turns of more than 180 degrees were made (maybe a right turn to go west over Malaysia; another right turn to go south at the end of the western leg) - could those suggest heroic but unsuccessful efforts to get back to Kuala Lumpur in the face of either duress (non-pilot-skilled hijacker with gun to head?) or catastrophic computer failure (Malicious computer virus?)


Sure, those look unlikely, but everything looks unlikely. And to me that includes suicide, given the flight path.

Do any pilots here have a possible explanation for the 180+ degree turns, if that is what they were? Turning east to turn west; turning north to turn south?
 
imatams
Posts: 312
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:12 am

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 33):
Sure, those look unlikely, but everything looks unlikely. And to me that includes suicide, given the flight path.

Indeed there is no 'likely scenario'. It's all about which one is the least unlikely, unfortunately.

With the search area now so far north-east of the original area, NORTH-west of Perth, has anyone mentioned the possibility of whoever was controlling the aircraft flying
towards Perth itself but falling short? Depending on how far west of Sumatra they went, the current search area is roughly on such a path..
As to why anyone would do that, who knows? Political asylum comes to mind, though there must be easier ways to get to Australia..

Not presenting this as a likely scenario, but something that came to mind when looking at the map..
 
abba
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:27 am

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 3):
That is not a suicide. That is mass murder.
Quoting Lizzie (Reply 33):
Murder-suicides are different, obviously, but if this was a planned murder-suicide, it is unlike any others I know of.

Exactly. It is not enough to explain why any of the pilots might want to commit suicide. It must also be explained why that person wanted to kill a plane full of pax at the same time. And do it in a way that did not make a clear statement.
 
na
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:38 am

Quoting abba (Reply 35):
Exactly. It is not enough to explain why any of the pilots might want to commit suicide. It must also be explained why that person wanted to kill a plane full of pax at the same time. And do it in a way that did not make a clear statement.

If one of the pilots simply wanted to commit suicide, he would likely have rented a Cessna and disappear. Even if the whole scenario fits best to the pilot suicide theory I cant believe it. In all former cases of pilot suicide serious mental issues or grave personal problems were found pretty quick. Not so here. And if he wanted to kill everyone with him without having big-scale personal problems then he must have wanted to make a point of some kind. But he didnt.
Wonder if the FAs have been thoroughly checked, they are the only ones who could have entered the cockpit without using force. Only a FA with a gun could have prevented the pilots from sending an emergency call.
 
art
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:40 am

I have a question, should anyone know the answer, please. Do ULB's suddely stop functioning if the battery voltage drops below a certain cut off threshold ie do they cease to ping at all or does a weaker/altered ping continue being emitted until it fades away to nothing as the battery is totally discharged?
 
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Pohakuloa
Posts: 219
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:00 am

Quoting imatams (Reply 34):
With the search area now so far north-east of the original area, NORTH-west of Perth, has anyone mentioned the possibility of whoever was controlling the aircraft flying towards Perth itself but falling short?

When seeing the search area change and change and change and seeing when pings were picked up and seeing this same line as you have here, I thought the same thing too. Only thing that bugs me about this speculative scenario is IF this were true and the pilot had enough fuel for the trip (which flight time COULD well have made it there IF everything went to plan), did he not have his optimal altitude for travel and for what reason? Or what happened early on in the flight (ie: suspected altitude changes) that consumed more fuel than the pilot in control of MH370 intended to allow it to fall short. Sure there are easier ways for asylum, but to create a political blunder and "disappear" a large passenger aircraft could be the slap in the face (punch in the gonads) he had intended. Asylum would be the only way back to a somewhat normal life he could hope to gain. Radio silence all the way into Perth before declaring emergency landing.... Depressurize the cabin enough to knock passengers out near day break once they realized they were not arriving in PEK so as to keep the passengers in the dark, but not kill them. A very plausible scenario I admit, though I suspect if this was the intent, the pilot would likely left a message late on the CVR in order to say what his intent was and why it had failed. IF this scenario did play out the only thing I cannot rationalize is what happened to the passengers in this failed scenario. No rafts sighted anywhere, no beacons from the rafts, or could they even have been conscious enough to have gotten access before going down with the aircraft in a best case scenario ditching....

Speculation indeed, but something to think about along with the rest of the unlikely scenarios for sure....
Fast cars and 'Jet A' - such a sweet smell!
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:00 am

Quoting p51tang (Reply 32):
Hi Nav30.I found an article that may answer your question regarding planned vs unplanned suicide.

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~nock/noc...0et%20al_2013_JAMA_Psychiatry1.pdf

In particular Table 3: I noted that those respondents from aforesaid survey with anger ideology, were almost twice as likely to plan a specific event, than those who chose not to.

Quote:
Lizzie reply 112 thread 52: Suicides are sometimes very well planned, even when they are not also attempts at mass murder. In the psychiatric literature, a distinction is often made between unplanned (or impulsive) suicides and planned suicides. Planned attempts, not surprisingly, tend to be more lethal than unplanned attempts, and some evidence suggests they are associated with older, better educated people with higher scores on "self-directedness".

I cannot argue with your post. Wink

Thanks, that was one of the best A.net links I have read in a long while. I have, in person, posited from about day 5 that if this were suicide it would not be "simple." One can look to US mass-casualty school shootings to see a version of this. Obviously, the anger ideology is different. A pilot and their passengers versus a student and their classmates, very different circumstances and relationships.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
art
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:10 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 39):
I have, in person, posited from about day 5 that if this were suicide it would not be "simple." One can look to US mass-casualty school shootings to see a version of this. Obviously, the anger ideology is different. A pilot and their passengers versus a student and their classmates, very different circumstances and relationships.

Certainly a very different relationship: aircraft crew are trained to look after the welfare of the passengers. In addition they do not know the passengers so should have no grounds for holding a grievance against them.
 
na
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:29 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 39):
A pilot and their passengers versus a student and their classmates, very different circumstances and relationships.

Definitely. Also in any case of school-massacre the murderers (similar to the suicidal pilots so far) were found to be psychologically affected, loners, aggressive, were bad performers and felt misunderstood or ill-treated and so on, not something which is apparently the case with the two MAS pilots.
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:44 am

This is absolutely terrifying, especially given that it predates MH370:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk1jIKQvMx8

If you are short of time, watch from about 30 minutes onwards.
 
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Finn350
Posts: 1601
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:44 am

Quote:
The Chief Coordinator of the Joint Agency Coordination Centre, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston (Ret'd), has confirmed that whilst conducting an acoustic search this afternoon a RAAF AP-3C Orion aircraft has detected a possible signal in the vicinity of the Australian Defence Vessel Ocean Shield.

Source: http://www.jacc.gov.au/media/releases/2014/april/mr016.aspx

Apparently, the detection is from the sonobuoys dropped into the search area.
 
monjonman
Posts: 32
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:19 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 43):

Well lets hope it helps to narrow the search area more.
One good thing to note is although there is a cat 5 cyclone on the east coast at the moment , the season here has definitely changed on the west coast so the weather should remain good for any ships that are there searching, for the foreseeable future.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5933
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:27 pm

I was traveling yesterday.

In response to a series of posts about 'intact aircraft' for a ditching - and lack of debris - and US Airways 1549 landing in the Hudson.


Yes, the upper fuselage was intact.

The lower fuselage was not.

There were several hundred pounds of floating debris recovered from the aircraft. Most of that debris came out of the emergency exits, but a couple hundred pounds came out of the sprung open cargo doors and the rear lower fuselage skin ripped away from the aircraft by the water impact damage.

The A320 lost approx. 1/2 of its rear pressure bulkhead due to the force of impact. As a comparison - the Asiana B777 at SFO did not lost that much of its rear pressure bulkhead.

At least one frame was ripped loose and punctured throught the floor of the passenger cabin - opening the passenger cabin which would allow debris from that area to escape had the emergency exits not been opened.

Pihero's quotes from the manuals on ditching mention a landing at 200fpm.

US Airways 1549 hit the water at over four times that rate - impact forces measured were over 12G.

The successful dead stick emergency landings - US1549, Gimli Glider, Air Transat A330 - have all hit the ground or water HARD. A 200 fpm landing for an aircraft without power is practically unachievable by any pilot. To bleed off that much energy before touchdown would put the aircraft at high risk of an uncontrolled water entry.

If someone wants to cite a water landing with an intact fuselage and not floating debris - the JAL DC-8 at SFO is the only case of which I'm aware which might meet that standard. And that was not a ditching, but an accidental touchdown short of the runway.

US Airways 1549 in the Hudson is NOT an example of a 'no debris' ditching.
 
aviators99
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:41 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:32 pm

There are many cases of light aircraft ditching in water (even the oceans) and remaining intact. People comparing MH 370 to US 1549 is like comparing US 1549 to a Cessna. Physics dictates that these comparisons should not be made. They are 3 completely different categories of aircraft.

[Edited 2014-04-10 05:33:06]
 
tapir
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:07 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:32 pm

From CNN just now:-


Other important elements were revealed Thursday from a senior Malaysian government official and another source involved in the investigation:
• Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 disappeared from military radar for about 120 nautical miles after it crossed back over the Malaysian Peninsula, sources say. Based on available data, this means the plane must have dipped in altitude to between 4,000 and 5,000 feet, a senior Malaysian government official and a source involved in the investigation tell CNN.
 
ExpatExp
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:30 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:10 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 9):
A nice recent one:

Wow. A rather impressive ship.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 26):
Do Satellite Cell Phones work the same as cell phones and is that a reason no one used them?

These types of telephones are so much less common than typical cell phones that it's unlikely (but possible) that anyone on board had one. If they did, and if they didn't put it in checked luggage, and if it was not stored in an overhead bin, and if they were sitting next to a window, and if there was a satellite that could be reached given those conditions, then I suppose it's possible that a call could have been made or a text sent. Doubtless others here will chime in with more expertise but I wouldn't be at all surprised by the lack of any satellite telephone communication in this case.
 
Rara
Posts: 2306
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53

Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:15 pm

Quoting Tapir (Reply 47):
• Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 disappeared from military radar for about 120 nautical miles after it crossed back over the Malaysian Peninsula, sources say. Based on available data, this means the plane must have dipped in altitude to between 4,000 and 5,000 feet, a senior Malaysian government official and a source involved in the investigation tell CNN.

Blimey.

Do we have a reconstruction of the most likely flightpath and altitude profile, based on the best available information? The Malaysians haven't released anything like a radar-tracked flightpath so far, have they?
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
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