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SpaceshipDC10
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Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:35 pm

In 1975, AY took delivery of two brand new DC-10-30s. Then in 1981 a third one joined the fleet and was converted to Extended Range in 1983. Then in 1983 a former AZ arrived followed by an ex. WD in 1988. I remember reading somewhere that some of the others were also later converted to ER. Is that right?

Also, I have found these seat maps from a 1988 timetable and I wonder what is that section with no seats over the wings on the one at right.
 
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MD80
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:02 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Thread starter):
I remember reading somewhere that some of the others were also later converted to ER. Is that right?

I am not aware of additional conversions made to the existing fleet. The third DC-10 was modified to ER to allow a non-stop route between Helsinki and Tokyo IIRC. This decision was taken after Finnair decided to stick with McDonnell Douglas instead of changing their fleet to Boeing including the Boeing 747 SP.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Thread starter):
I wonder what is that section with no seats over the wings on the one at right

Could this be a crew bunk?
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:09 pm

Quoting MD80 (Reply 1):
The third DC-10 was modified to ER to allow a non-stop route between Helsinki and Tokyo IIRC.

That's correct. It was to avoid Soviet airspace.
 
dalca
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:37 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 2):
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Thread starter):
I wonder what is that section with no seats over the wings on the one at right

Could this be a crew bunk?

I think this is a galley, KLM B747's also have a large galley on the left hand side of the aircraft
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G500
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:02 pm

I absolutely love those Finnair DC10s. That was my favorite livery
 
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MD80
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:15 am

I looked at my small collection of memorabilia and I´ve found no evidence that Finnair operated more than the mentioned (single) DC-10-30ER. Finnair´s DC-10-fleet comprised up to five aircraft and this included at least one DC-10 with 345 seats for charter-services as a replacement for their Douglas DC-8s. The DC-10-30ER was a rather rare type with only a handful of operators that come into my mind: Finnair, Swissair, and Thai received such aircraft and five DC-10s of Canadian Airlines (CP Air) were once modified to ER-standard. Three of these DC-10 were operated by United Airlines for their non-stop flights between Seattle and Hong Kong.

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
I absolutely love those Finnair DC10s. That was my favorite livery

IMO the classic livery of Finnair was and is outstanding. However I always wondered why no DC-10 and MD-11 of Finnair received the "belly band" introduced with the MD-82 (or DC-9-82 or DC-9 Super 82) in 1983.

Regards
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:37 am

Quoting MD80 (Reply 1):
Could this be a crew bunk?

Thought so and probably is on the ER. It's interesting to see what other airlines had for their crews like SK and SR.


Quoting dalca (Reply 3):
I think this is a galley, KLM B747's also have a large galley on the left hand side of the aircraft

I see your point however you'll notice that all the usual galleys are there and not replaced by this one on the DC-10.

Quoting MD80 (Reply 5):
The DC-10-30ER was a rather rare type with only a handful of operators that come into my mind: Finnair, Swissair, and Thai received such aircraft and five DC-10s of Canadian Airlines (CP Air) were once modified to ER-standard.

With UA you also mentioned these were the operators of the Extended Range back then, with five newly built aircraft and eight converted.
 
lucce
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Thread starter):
I wonder what is that section with no seats over the wings on the one at right.

On the subject of crew bunks, I seem to recall that MD-11 seat maps showed the pilot rest bunks extending across the L1 door.
 
802flyguy
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:15 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 2):
That's correct. It was to avoid Soviet airspace.

Or, possibly, Soviet overflight fees?  

I remember seeing the ad for the HEL-NRT non-stop "Via the North Pole". This was actually a real "polar flight" (or close to it), unlike many fights labeled as such that were Arctic, but not truly polar. (I once saw on online comment from someone who had taken the flight NRT-CPH, stuck near the smoking seats. Which were all taken by bunch of chain smoking Danish dentists. He said it was the longest 13 hours of his life.) As the Soviet Union eased overflight restrictions around '89 or '90, the Europe-Japan market changed. AY no longer needed to detour and other carriers ended their flights via ANC.


Side note: TW used to have a great flip type departure board at SFO. It was cool to see the signs flip through the displays: "Polar Flight" was one of them.

Side note II: Does anyone know the name of the ANC airport hotel where the European carriers overnighted their crews? I understand that the bar was quite the place back in the day?
 
GolfBravoRomeo
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:21 pm

Dating myself but IIRC, first class had club seating, at least in 1976.
 
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HELyes
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:48 pm

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 8):
Or, possibly, Soviet overflight fees?

What I've read it was both Japan and Russia who didn't first approve AY's plan to fly non stop through the Siberian airspace. Russia demanded a tech stop in Moscow and the fees were still high, so AY chose the polar route with DC-10ER. The route was opened in 1983, AY was the first (western) European to fly non stop to Japan.

The little HELyes flew AY DC-10 once, in 1986 on HEL-SEA. Finnair served HEL-SEA-LAX that time, they had a small crew base in SEA for the SEA-LAX leg.
 
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teme82
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:54 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Thread starter):

Also, I have found these seat maps from a 1988 timetable and I wonder what is that section with no seats over the wings on the one at right.

I'm not sure if that is AY timetable. Because it has 3 class cabin configuration.
Flying high and low
 
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Finn350
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:11 am

Quoting teme82 (Reply 11):
I'm not sure if that is AY timetable. Because it has 3 class cabin configuration

It definitely is. Finnair used to have a First Class a long time ago.
 
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teme82
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:50 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 12):

It definitely is. Finnair used to have a First Class a long time ago.

I stand corrected. That must be around 20 to 25 years ago. 
Flying high and low
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:57 pm

Quoting teme82 (Reply 11):
I'm not sure if that is AY timetable. Because it has 3 class cabin configuration.

The seat map is from 1988, a time when airlines had first and business classes.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:56 am

Quoting dalca (Reply 3):
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 2):
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Thread starter):
I wonder what is that section with no seats over the wings on the one at right

Could this be a crew bunk?

I think this is a galley, KLM B747's also have a large galley on the left hand side of the aircraft

Pretty sure it was crew bunks on the AY DC-10.
 
UA444
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:23 am

The one converted to ER was sold to NW and became N226NW. After NW was done with it, they sold it I ATA who then went bust shortly after. Then World took it, and shortly after, had a bad landing in BWI and it was written off. It's still at BWI used as a trainer.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:08 am

Quoting MD80 (Reply 1):
Finnair decided to stick with McDonnell Douglas instead of changing their fleet to Boeing including the Boeing 747 SP.

Wow, I never knew the 74L was ever an option. I would LOVE to see that Finnair livery an a 747sp Frame. My favorite commercial aircraft ever built. If I ever win 100s of millions of dollars, I'll buy a 747sp and see the World with me and my homies.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 2):
That's correct. It was to avoid Soviet airspace



I remember this, when ANC was a spotters paradise, since it was less expensive than landing in MOW.

Quoting MD80 (Reply 5):
I looked at my small collection of memorabilia and I´ve found no evidence that Finnair operated more than the mentioned (single) DC-10-30ER. Finnair´s DC-10-fleet comprised up to five aircraft and this included at least one DC-10 with 345 seats for charter-services as a replacement for their Douglas DC-8s.

Remember Finnair operated TYO, SEA & LAX all with the DC-10-30ER, that is a lot of flying for one frame.

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 8):
Or, possibly, Soviet overflight fees?

Nope, it was to save on the huge landing fees in Moscow, and to avoid flying via ANC. They found a way to go non-stop, with multiple turns to avoid airspaces, and it took a few hours longer to do it, than by todays standards.

I guess if you were in F it was awesome service of the 70s and 80s, J had good legroom still, and even Y was not the 10 abreast, crammed in seating of today.

I can remember flying to Africa in 1970 with my family on SAA and we had enough legroom in Y for me to play airport on the floor, without bothering my folks.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 10):
The little HELyes flew AY DC-10 once, in 1986 on HEL-SEA. Finnair served HEL-SEA-LAX that time, they had a small crew base in SEA for the SEA-LAX leg.

I remember being parked next to a Finnair DC-10-30 when I was on SK, both DC-10s I just was going to CPH and AY was heading to Helsinki of course.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 14):
The seat map is from 1988, a time when airlines had first and business classes

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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:11 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 16):
The one converted to ER was sold to NW and became N226NW. After NW was done with it, they sold it I ATA who then went bust shortly after. Then World took it, and shortly after, had a bad landing in BWI and it was written off. It's still at BWI used as a trainer.

You are mistaken. The one you are referring to was a former Swissair aircraft while the one originally with Finnair later served with Air Liberté and AirLib of France before continuing on with Omni.
 
okay
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:36 pm

Finnair operated one ER-version. It was never owned by AY, like other 10s the airline had. It was also in American registration while the others had Finnish registration. The plane was originally destined for Egyptair, who cancelled the order. The plane first got Finnish registration OH-LHC, but got later American registration N345HC. This was due to the owning arrangements. As the plane was in American registration, the maintenance and operation of the aircraft had to follow FAA rules. Also, AY DC10 pilots and mechanics had to have FAA licenses.

The plane was a retrofit ER, meaning the extra fuel tank was fitted later on to the aircraft. This happened in late 1982, and in 1983 AY started the non stop Polar route flight to Tokyo.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Thread starter):
Also, I have found these seat maps from a 1988 timetable and I wonder what is that section with no seats over the wings on the one at right.

Indeed this was he crew rest area. My mom used to be CA for Finnair, and she said the location was terrible, sometimes you got passengers peeking in to ask for a drink as crew tried to have their rest.

Quoting lucce (Reply 7):
On the subject of crew bunks, I seem to recall that MD-11 seat maps showed the pilot rest bunks extending across the L1 door.

This is correct. Finnair MD11s featured a Flight Deck crew rest bunk between the front galley and the flight deck

Quoting teme82 (Reply 13):
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17):
Remember Finnair operated TYO, SEA & LAX all with the DC-10-30ER, that is a lot of flying for one frame.

The Tokyo rotation was once a week in the beginning. That left plenty of time for the frame to do other routes.

Quoting MD80 (Reply 5):
IMO the classic livery of Finnair was and is outstanding. However I always wondered why no DC-10 and MD-11 of Finnair received the "belly band" introduced with the MD-82 (or DC-9-82 or DC-9 Super 82) in 1983.

I loved the old AY livery, too.

I don't know why the stripes were missing from the DC10s and MD11, but one possible reason could be that the 10s were originally only half painted, the lower part of the fuselage was left metallic. Maybe they just decided to continue with this look even after the lower part did get some paint. Just my thought.
 
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MD80
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:55 pm

Quoting HELyes (Reply 10):
so AY chose the polar route with DC-10ER.

The decision by Finnair for the DC-10-30 ER

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17):
Wow, I never knew the 74L was ever an option. I would LOVE to see that Finnair livery an a 747sp Frame. My favorite commercial aircraft ever built. If I ever win 100s of millions of dollars, I'll buy a 747sp and see the World with me and my homies.

 

IIRC McDonnell Douglas was not willing to lose such a valuable customer like Finnair and offered Finnair the possibility for the DC-10-30 ER to satisfy their needs. Finnair openly discussed a fleet-wide exchange and the 747SP as well as Boeing 737/757s were mentioned as a possible replacement of the entire DC-8/-9/-10- and Caravelle-fleet. The Boeing 757 was definitely on the agenda due o the very attractive operating-costs. However Finnair were right. The 757 was probably “too much aircraft” and difficult to fill.

It seemed that McDonnell Douglas worked really hard to secure Finnair as a future operator and the manufacturer not only offered the DC-10-30ER as a solution but also three DC-9-82s (MD-82s) which were originally earmarked for aeromexico. These three aircraft allowed the final retirement of the last three remaining “Super Caravelle”-aircraft in spring of 1983.

The rest is history: Finnair became one of the very early customers for the MD-11 and one of the launch-customers for the MD-83 (together with Alaska Airlines) with an initial order for two aircraft and for the MD-87 (together with Austrian Airlines) with an order for eight aircraft. This order was later modified and only three MD-87s were delivered and possible the five additional delivery-positions were changed for larger MD-80s.
Ironically Finnair indeed ordered and introduced the Boeing 757 in the mid-1990s, albeit primarily as a very efficient tool for charter.

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 19):
I loved the old AY livery, too.

I don't know why the stripes were missing from the DC10s and MD11, but one possible reason could be that the 10s were originally only half painted, the lower part of the fuselage was left metallic. Maybe they just decided to continue with this look even after the lower part did get some paint. Just my thought.

Nice to read that I am not alone with my opinion about the classic design of Finnair.
 

Hm. Their DC-9s also had some kind of "half painted" (not metallic but grey) and later they were operated with white bellies IIRC. During the 1980s the DC-9-40/-50s were gently modified with the "belly band". Nevertheless Finnair´s livery was very polite and adaptable to almost all shapes of aircraft. It is also noteworthy that Finnair operated their DC-10s very smoothly and successfully for so many years and they had the nice touch of "McDonnell Douglas-flavor".

Regards
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:10 pm

Quoting okAY (Reply 19):
The Tokyo rotation was once a week in the beginning. That left plenty of time for the frame to do other routes.

I didn't knew that. Thought it was twice or thrice weekly. Now I understand how they managed to use it on US west coast flights.
 
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:06 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 18):

Ah geeze, you're right. How did I mix those up? Did NW have former AY D10s in their fleet or am I imagining?
 
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 22):
Did NW have former AY D10s in their fleet or am I imagining?

None. NW added DC-10-30s from various sources but none came from AY. Finnair's DC-10s went to Air Liberté and Continental.
 
okay
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:58 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 23):

Yup. At least the 10s that ended up with Air Liberté came to HEL for (heavy?) maintenance. I worked as an airplane cleaner two summers, and visited Air Liberté DC10s. The cabins were still totally in AY colours. The seats had the blue covers on them, the magazine racks on the wall had Finnair F logos on them and the projector screen once turned to "OFF" position was featuring a Finnish lake view! I was chuckling to myself seeing this as I wondered what French holiday makers would think when they saw such a pic on a flight to some sunny beach destination  
 
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:40 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 23):
Finnair's DC-10s went to Air Liberté and Continental.

Likely to support some long haul pacific flying, at least that is my guess. Was the one or ones that went to CO the odd bird out in their fleet?
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:16 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 25):
Likely to support some long haul pacific flying, at least that is my guess. Was the one or ones that went to CO the odd bird out in their fleet?

In fact all four were leased to Air Liberté. However OH-LHB/F-GPVB stayed in France for slightly less than two years before going to CO. OH-LHE might have been leased for a short time, however it's completely clear to me. Anyway it was later converted to freighter and flew many years for Gemini. Lately it's been seen sitting at MIA painted in Latin Air Cargo livery.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:11 pm

Quoting MD80 (Reply 5):
five DC-10s of Canadian Airlines (CP Air) were once modified to ER-standard. Three of these DC-10 were operated by United Airlines for their non-stop flights between Seattle and Hong Kong.

I don't know how I remember this, but didn't CP Air have some sort of a fleet trade with United for a while whereby CP had United DC-10-10s in exchange for either 747s or DC-10-30s?
 
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:29 pm

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 19):
As the plane was in American registration, the maintenance and operation of the aircraft had to follow FAA rules. Also, AY DC10 pilots and mechanics had to have FAA licenses.

Is this also the case today with airlines like Aeromexico with their fleets of leased B737NG's and 787's that are N registered?
 
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:52 pm

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 19):
Finnair operated one ER-version. It was never owned by AY, like other 10s the airline had. It was also in American registration while the others had Finnish registration. The plane was originally destined for Egyptair, who cancelled the order. The plane first got Finnish registration OH-LHC, but got later American registration N345HC

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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting drgmobile (Reply 27):

Quoting MD80 (Reply 5):
five DC-10s of Canadian Airlines (CP Air) were once modified to ER-standard. Three of these DC-10 were operated by United Airlines for their non-stop flights between Seattle and Hong Kong.

I don't know how I remember this, but didn't CP Air have some sort of a fleet trade with United for a while whereby CP had United DC-10-10s in exchange for either 747s or DC-10-30s?

What MD80 said is exactly the situation where CP Air exchanged three of its DC-10-30s with three United's DC-10-10s. The -30s were converted to ER-standard for UA SEA-NRT & HKG services. The leases lasted between 1983 and 1987. In the meantime, in 1985, CP decided to convert a further two -30s to ER. To cover for the lack of capacity, they leased another UA DC-10-10 for two months.

CP was also involved during the '80s in a 747/DC-10-30 fleet swap, but mentioning it here would push this thread way off topic. And I'm sure it's already been discussed in the past.
 
toobz
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:28 am

I flew on the ER many times when I was younger to SEA. And yes that livery is the best and I absolutely miss it. Current livery is blah.
 
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:58 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17):
I guess if you were in F it was awesome service of the 70s and 80s, J had good legroom still, and even Y was not the 10 abreast, crammed in seating of today.

This got me thinking, was it actually AY who started the "10-abreast-on-a-9-abreast aircraft" on full service airlines with their MD-11s before EK did it with the wider 777?
 
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RWA380
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:17 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 26):
Anyway it was later converted to freighter and flew many years for Gemini. Lately it's been seen sitting at MIA painted in Latin Air Cargo livery.

I just gotta say, Douglas made some durable aircraft, those 10s may last as long as some 9s did.

Quoting Pacific (Reply 32):

This got me thinking, was it actually AY who started the "10-abreast-on-a-9-abreast aircraft" on full service airlines with their MD-11s before EK did

Isn't that the shiznit.
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drgmobile
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:45 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 30):
CP was also involved during the '80s in a 747/DC-10-30 fleet swap, but mentioning it here would push this thread way off topic. And I'm sure it's already been discussed in the past.

Pakistan International Airlines. I heard from my dad those PIA planes were in pretty awful shape when CP got them.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Finnair DC-10s - A Couple Of Questions

Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:16 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 23):
Quoting UA444 (Reply 22):
Did NW have former AY D10s in their fleet or am I imagining?

None. NW added DC-10-30s from various sources but none came from AY.

Original operators of NW's 24 DC-10-30s (in a few cases NW acquired them from subsequent operators):

Swissair (8)
Thai International (4)
Korean Air (3)
Varig (3)
KLM (2)
Japan Air System (2)
SAS (1)
Malaysia Airlines (1)

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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos